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Unprepared for Parenting (Ezzos, Pearls, Etc.) *Public* Support and information for those affected by the Ezzos, the Pearls, and other punitive and adversarial methods of child-rearing.
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23. No posts harshly dissecting parenting moments of others since we desire to humbly cultivate a heart attitude of grace and not judgment towards other mamas. We all struggle at times as parents and have much to learn, and GCM's focus is to provide tools and information for each of us to parent more effectively. Posts voicing some frustration regarding choices made by others can be okay, but it needs to be within the overall context of seeking understanding or ideas for better responses in the future.

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Old 02-15-2011, 04:20 PM   #31
purple_kangaroo
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Just be aware that they do not leave any room for picking and choosing or disagreeing with parts of what they believe. They are very much "our way or the highway" in attitude, similar to the Ezzos.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by soxthecatrules View Post
The same exact same thing can be said of any the materials written by Ezzo.
As well as Pearl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
Just be aware that they do not leave any room for picking and choosing or disagreeing with parts of what they believe. They are very much "our way or the highway" in attitude, similar to the Ezzos.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

We were really into VF for a year or so right after we got married. Luckily DH was away at Basic Training so he wasn't around to get as submerged as I was. Along with what everyone else has said, I think it also puts a lot of pressure on the husband - DH is very laid back and I felt like he wasn't as good of a husband since he wasn't demanding and "vision" oriented. Thank goodness he didn't try to fit the mold!

They also don't believe in health insurance, college in the traditional sense, any form of government assistance, personal debt, or dating (courtship in an extreme, focusing a lot on the Father/potential spouse relationship and whether the Father thinks its a good fit). And owning your own business or a family farm is the holy grail. We went to this "Family Economics" conference last year that they sponsored - very funny since there is a high population of military families around here, suggesting that it might be beneficial for the father to quit his job and start up his own business is just ridiculous!

It's kind of ironic how much they encourage getting married at a young age and having tons of kids as an ideal when when what they say is practiced it tends to lead to the opposite (never getting married).

As far as parenting: Tripp is what is in their catalogue, but you'll find many strong Pearl/Ezzo followers amongst them since one lends itself to the other.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:50 PM   #34
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

My mom bought me Beautiful Girlhood when I was a young teen and I honestly hated it. It glorified victorian-era lifestyle as "God's Will." It's a nice, pretty idea of "girlhood" with a few good things. Unfortunately, as I remember it, those "good things" are tied too closely to justification and sanctification, so if you are someone who does not easily identify with their version of womanhood, then you can easily experience frustration and depression. I know I did.

It uses phrases like "a truly beautiful girl is one who..." I have a HUGE problem with anyone trying to tell a girl she is "truly beautiful WHEN and IF she does ... fill in the blank with your spiritually mandated idea of whatever a girl should be."

That, in my mind, qualifies as emotionally abusive and when you tie God into it you get a spiritually abusive environment. God does NOT say that we are truly beautiful only when we fulfill x commands, and most of the things they talk about are NOT commands. Some of them are borderline heretical and nearly all of them are b or c issues.

They say on the website: "Young ladies who experience a beautiful girlhood guard their hearts against anything that would rob them of purity and are content to wait upon the Lord and trust the leadership of Mom and Dad."

There is no acknowledgment that any purity we have comes from God and HE can't lose purity and neither can we. We can't be robbed of our purity. And trusting the leadership of mom and dad sounds all nice, but really it ends up being a doctrine that is detrimental to girls developing their own self-control - a fruit of the Spirit.

My daughter and I will definiteiy be going through this book together - as a an exercise in discernment, as an exercise in how improper exegesis and the glorification of dominionism and "biblical" culture causes people to qualify who gets to be "truly" beautiful.

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

I did a critique of Eric and Leslie Ludy on my website - and there are a lot of similarities. Their "Set Apart Femininity" is basically the watered down version of beautiful girlhood and their very basic ideas on justification/sanctification and law and gospel is absolutely flawed - dangerously so.

And VF is much, much more extreme in their views.

http://threeinonemakesfive.blogspot....ue-take-2.html
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:35 PM   #35
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I had a huge response all typed up and it logged me out because it took me quite a while to write the response. Guess next time I should copy it if I need to log back in and paste! Grrr, frustrating!

Anyways, in retrospect I still can't see anything wrong with Beautiful Girlhood. Even 1 Peter shows was true beauty is (gentle and quiet spirit). Being who we are always guarantees that God loves us, but it does not guarantee His blessings. Faith without works IS dead. "You are my disciples IF you love one another". In Deuteronomy 28 and 29 we see that there are blessings and curses depending on whether Gods people obeyed or disobeyed. Lets not overemphasize 'God loves me the way I am' while neglecting that there are qualifications to blessings (obedience).

After clearing that up, the divide lies in does Beautiful Girlhood advocate God's standard or is it anothers? From what I could tell, BG was a great reminder of Gods beautiful gift of femininity and prepares a girl for the awesome role as wife/mother. Now that I am a wife/mother I'd like to look back and see if the book is as good as I remember. Maybe Ive changed since then or wasnt old enough to understand some hidden messages.

P.S. I am pretty traditional in my family views, that's just me!

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

Now concerning: "They also don't believe in health insurance, college in the traditional sense, any form of government assistance, personal debt, or dating (courtship in an extreme, focusing a lot on the Father/potential spouse relationship and whether the Father thinks its a good fit). And owning your own business or a family farm is the holy grail." That IS extreme! We use health insurance, and I did go to college (I'm a SAHM, but it's nice to have something to fall back on if necessary). Government assistance is necessary at time. I do think personal debt should be avoided at all costs if at all possible. I don't believe in dating (Dh and I didnt date each other). Owning a business is nice, but not mandatory or lesser!

I too, like most of you, have a problem with any ministry elevating extrablical ideals to the standard of the Scriptures.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:40 PM   #36
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

[

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Old 02-15-2011, 06:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. I know my ideas arent mainstream on the forum (was rather surprised at that). My goal isnt to 'convert' ya'll. Just letting you know who I am and that a lot of what I say comes here from my worldview. I will say this, I don't think of myself as dumb or lesser in importance. My husband doesn't see me as such either. I do have pleasures and purposes outside of the home. However, my belief is that a woman's PRIMARY calling/gifting is towards her family - being a support to her husband and nurturing children. 'The end'.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

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Old 02-15-2011, 07:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
After clearing that up, the divide lies in does Beautiful Girlhood advocate God's standard or is it anothers? From what I could tell, BG was a great reminder of Gods beautiful gift of femininity and prepares a girl for the awesome role as wife/mother. Now that I am a wife/mother I'd like to look back and see if the book is as good as I remember. ...P.S. I am pretty traditional in my family views, that's just me!
In some ways, yes, it is just 'you' - it fits your ideals and your personality and is a good fit FOR YOU and many others. What can't be done is retro-fit what works for 'you', or any of the others that believe the way that VF does, and say it is 'God's beautiful gift' for every woman. There is a difference between a personal style and God's design. My life is a different calling - my husband is in law enforcement. Yes I cook, sew, knit, .... but my husband requires a strong wife, not a woman who can't handle 'whatever' comes.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:47 PM   #40
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I think most of us here do rejoice in our roles as wives and mothers, and treasure them.

What I need to point out, though, is that SOME people have been traumatized by ministries that have over-exalted and over-idealized and over-idolized this role to an unbiblical level, and others of us are very sympathetic of how that has played out in an almost abusive way in their lives.


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Old 02-15-2011, 08:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama2MeadowRose View Post
However, my belief is that a woman's PRIMARY calling/gifting is towards her family - being a support to her husband and nurturing children. 'The end'.
I believe a woman's PRIMARY calling is to bring glory to her Father God. How that happens would be between herself and her Creator. Hopefully everything that woman does will be sacred and beautiful because it will be a work or energy dedicated to the Maker
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

That is a lovely and peaceful way to put it, Jaymarie. Thank you for sharing that thought!
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:10 AM   #43
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by newday View Post
I believe a woman's PRIMARY calling is to bring glory to her Father God. How that happens would be between herself and her Creator. Hopefully everything that woman does will be sacred and beautiful because it will be a work or energy dedicated to the Maker
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:42 AM   #44
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Some of the people associated with organizations like Vision Forum basically believe that the father/husband is for all practical purposes to take the role of God in a woman's life. If you want to know what God wants of you, no need to ask Him--just ask your husband/father and he'll tell you. A woman interacts with God primarily through her male authority, they teach. It totally derails the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, and all believers having a direct, vibrant, personal relationship with God, IMHO.

When I was a teen I went to a seminar where Steve Schlissel, a good friend of Doug Phillips, was speaking. His daughter Sarah Faith, who was then 18, spoke also for one session, on the topic "Daddy's Girl: Courtship and a Father's Rights"

Here is the text of the speech. www. bibletopics.com/biblestudy/92b.htm

A couple of quotes:

Quote:
"Any man seeking to beg, borrow or steal a daughter's hand without her father's endorsement is seeking to gain, in unlawful ways, "property" not his own. Daughters are Daddy's girls in the objective sense, and this particular daughter rejoices in that truth. I am owned by my father."
Quote:
Wouldn't God's will for the girl supersede her earthly, mortal, imperfect father's will?"

Simply put: No. As strange as it may sound, in the peculiar relationship of the father and daughter, God, as it were, takes a back seat. God has created a hierarchy such that the daughter is directly answerable to her father, and her father then answers to God. This doubles the father's responsibilities, because he must account to God for the way he raises his daughter.
Quote:
The order of God, as indicated in his word, is that God himself defers to the will of the father when it comes to his daughter. God says, "You heard your father. The answer is no." Thus, the will of the father regarding his daughter IS the will of God.

So I really am "Daddy's girl." And no man can approach me as an independent agent because I am not my own, but belong, until my marriage, to my father. At the time of my marriage, my father gives me away to my husband and there is a lawful change of ownership.
We gave her a standing ovation.

---------- Post added at 07:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 AM ----------

Oops, I accidentally posted too soon.

As a teenager, I remember proudly telling my friends, "I'm a personal possession of my father, to do with as he chooses." I believed that if he chose to give me a say in whether, when and whom I married, that would be nice, but it wasn't really necessary. After all, I was his property to give to whom he chose. I did think that if he ordered me to sin I would be allowed by God to say no, an idea not held by all Patriarchal teachers.

I later learned that even my father didn't agree with all these teachings to the extent I took them as an impressionable teen. But that is the result of sitting under the teaching of people like those associated with Vision Forum. Jonathan Lindvall is another big one that teaches submission means bringing even your thoughts and feelings under submission to your father, and giving him your heart to the extent of letting him determine your thoughts, feelings and desires. I'll find some more quotes for you later--maybe tomorrow.

Needless to say, I no longer believe these things and it took a while for me to sort through all of that. Very difficult and painful.
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Old 02-16-2011, 01:53 AM   #45
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

M2MR, i appreciate that you believe what you do and that you are willing to talk about it and discuss it with others. Honestly two years ago i would've been right there with you and i was also honestly surprised when i found that there really are bible believing christians who don't believe motherhood and femininity are sacred callings, but that, as was so aptly stated, glorifying God is our calling.

The theology you shared in reply to me was exactly what i woldve said, but vie learned that not onlyis faith without works dead, but works done without uthe individual working oof the Holy Spirit in our lives are only legalistic things done in the flesh, and we are to walk in the Spririt, not in the flesh.

Please take a few minutes to read the link i posted above. I go into the verses and the theology behind what I am trying to say here.

Sorry for typos... On a mobile device...

---------- Post added at 02:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------

Had to address the truly beautiful issue quickly...

I think the confusion here stems from confusing objective truth with subjective truth. The objective truth is that once we are in Christ we are as beautiful as it is going to get. God sees us as perfect and never stops seeing us as perfect. Christ died for all of our past, present and future sins and no matter that we are in disobedience often He still sees us as perfect. Subjectively we see that when we are quiet and gentle or kind, or when the fruit of the Spirit manifest outwardly then it seems as though we are more beautiful.

Unfortunately that kind of distinction is not made, which puts the onus of ssanctification on the believer. I want my children to learn correct, objective theology,not what man sees, but what God sees. I want them to know that, objectively, they have already attained true beauty, that they do not have to be more, try harder or whatever so that they can be truly beautiful.

The law is a tutor to bring us to christ and once we are with Him the law is useless to us. Our obedience to Gods commands ("he who loves has fulfilled the whole law because love does no harm to anyone...") comes from gratitude, not from a desire to receive blessings. Religion is a "you get out what you put in.". Christ is a "i can't put in anything, thank you Jesus for doing it all for me. Now please continue to work in me so I can obey you more each day."

Galatians 2:2,3 - col. 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:17 etc...
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