Today's sermon = ICKY ICKY ICKY

[ilovewest]

Thanks Mamas <3

We have decided to speak with the Sr. Pastor next week. It's something we had actually talked about doing before all this, just to get a better feel for what he and the church were like and see what service roles they played in the surrounding community. The kids ministry is rad, and the other 3 sermons have been great too, so I think its worth it to see if this is something that this church teaches or if this past Sundays sermon was just this particular pastors take. I'm honestly not holding my breath for us to find out anything too pleasing, though; thats my gut feeling.

Now I'm off to really get my info together on exactly WHY the punitive, pro-spanking approach is unbiblical. I'm not going into this conversation with my anti-spanking guns blazing, but id like to have more than, 'The sermon about spanking made me uncomfortable' on hand. Anyone who might be able to point me in a good direction would be much appreciated!

Again, thank you! So nice to be able to come here and have your support and help in getting the proper perspective on this.

[Starfish]

AArrgg! David was called a man after God's own heart WAY before the Bathsheba incident, when God privately had him anointed as king when he was a teen. And he did a bunch of other sinful stuff throughout his life and no punishment from God is recorded with those stories. Sounds like the pastor thought "I want to preach on spanking...hmm, what story can I use/twist to fit my topic?"

If you look at how Jesus discipled his disciples, you never see him using punitive measures in any form.

[ilovewest]

I know!!! I just wanted to scream, "DUDE! WE ALL HAVE BIBLES, AND MOST OF US KNOW THIS STORY WELL ENOUGGH TO NOT EVEN HAVE TO GO LOOK AT IT TO KNOW YOU'RE GETTING IT WRONG, DON'T YOU?????"

I think this is the main reason I'm not terribly hopeful about our talk with the Sr. pastor...... Who knows what else he'll twist.....

[Llee]

I hope that this associate pastor was just off of what that church actually believes.

[Hermana Linda]

Originally Posted by ilovewest

... Anyone who might be able to point me in a good direction would be much appreciated!

The Rod Study
Is Spanking Biblical?
Spanking Is NOT God's Will
Why Not Train a Child?

[Mokek Kwe]

Yeah, um... I'd just leave. Crazy people.

[Zooey]

Originally Posted by J3K

I wouldn't even bother. I'd just leave. When asked (if asked) I'd be honest , "I'm coming from a completely different place spiritually speaking. I'm not comfortable with the punitive sermons."

This.
Especially since the man clearly doesn't even know the Scripture he's misusing.

[CJNeeley]

Originally Posted by CityMamaOf2

Well, realistically, on the one hand, you are right that you aren't going to find a church where every single person exactly lines up with your method of parenting. You say that they have a good program for the kids, and it would be sad if you travel from church to church to find one that matches up with your parenting ideals but may not have a very good program for the kids.

On the other hand, I understand your wanting to protect your child from punitive influences, so it might be worth talking to this morning's speaker on the issue.

At the end of the day, your child is your child and you are free to parent in whatever fashion you think is best.

But can you count on it truly being a good program for the children if this punitive trend is pervasive enough within the church that a sermon like that was tolerated? What might they be exposed to in an attempt to groom them to fall into this line of submission?

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

Because this is the associate pastor and the others are so great--and the rest of the church seems such a potentially good fit, I would try to make an appointment with the Sr. Pastor to discuss this. It's quite possible he didn't even know what the assoc. pastor would be speaking on.

At the very least, you will know if there is potential or not

Originally Posted by sherry

It might be worth a letter or meeting to tell the pastor (senior pastor) what things initially drew you to the church and what is now driving you away. And if I were feeling really brave, I'd probably ask if the senior pastor was aware of the sermon content prior to the service. That might help in decision making about staying.
And, this is just a personal opinion, I'm really not sure that David and Bathsheba thing readily relates to parenting styles/choices.

These are very fair points, but in my experience associate pastors rarely have free reign. I would imagine it's more probable he at least knew the topic he was planning on addressing... he may not agree with the approach or everything that was said but I suspect it's very unlikely he didn't know, at least to some degree, what was coming in the sermon.

Originally Posted by ilovewest

I know!!! I just wanted to scream, "DUDE! WE ALL HAVE BIBLES, AND MOST OF US KNOW THIS STORY WELL ENOUGGH TO NOT EVEN HAVE TO GO LOOK AT IT TO KNOW YOU'RE GETTING IT WRONG, DON'T YOU?????"

I think this is the main reason I'm not terribly hopeful about our talk with the Sr. pastor...... Who knows what else he'll twist.....

This is the biggest thing that is off putting... he was not above blatantly twisting the word of God to sell his opinion. Can you settle and be comfortable in a church where the staff doesn't hold the word of God holy enough to not re-write at whim to prove a point they want to make?

Conflicting opinions will happen... occasional bizarre interpretations of what things mean will happen... but for someone who's spent a lifetime in-depthly studying the bible and still can't get a common story close enough to right that you don't want to scream that that's not even what it says, that is pretty disconcerting. You won't agree with every sermon preached any more than you agree with every word another person (who's not a pastor) says. That's okay and that doesn't mean a church is a bad fit. Re-writing scripture and attempting to divine God's thought processes and intents are a dangerously inappropriate slope... even more so when they are massively shared and hence have the ability to mislead a large number of people along the same slippery slope of presuming to know God's mindset.

Perhaps your eyes were more acutely opened because of the topic... but I think for me, it would be eclipsed by the approach. It's like watching someone swat mosquitoes with a saw, not only frighteningly dangerous but not something you ever want to become so familiar with you see it as normal either. For my mind, the most important point of a church is whether they teach correct biblical doctrine. Everything else is secondary. It is through the Spirit using the Word is how people are transformed. That is why Scripture states that the "Word is living and powerful." Churches maybe lacking this or that, but they have no chance of changing if the Word is not being proclaimed and taught. Churches are no more than sinners saved by grace so all churches will have imperfection... but their faithfulness to God's Word will ultimately make those imperfections more negligible. A lack of that faithfulness should be as piercing a sound as an alarm... warning you to find safer ground.

I'd talk to the head pastor if I felt reluctance to just up and leave... but I'd be thanking God for showing me this side before my roots grew so deep I'd be too wounded to thrive as a transplant elsewhere. Sometimes God calls us to places that we adore and feel fed from and that we really feel are helping us grow, and sometimes he calls us to places where we are meant to plant or stir things within them to evoke change... if you still feel a lingering tug to leave after talking with the head pastor (even if it seemed to go well), I'd pray over it and ask God if you are meant to leave.