rebuttal to "God punishes his children"

[StewardofLOs]

I interjected myself into a discussion DH and a mutual friend were having on facebook about this topic. I could have debated Scripture, but I didn't have the time or inclination so I just decided to write what I know:

I have never been punished by God, though I have certainly deserved it many times over, and I never will be. That is the definition of grace. How can I, except in my imperfection, extend anything less to others - including and especially my children?

What do you ladies think? Strangely enough, I haven't received a response....

And I'm curious: how would/have you responded to someone making that statement?

[bolt.]

I think it is excellent. A brief and compelling argument to bring people back to God as He is in their own spiritual lives.

However, it will probably confuse people who believe that punishment and discipline are two words for the same thing. I think it will be read as, "I don't think God disciplines me in any way." -- which isn't what you are saying at all, but people tend not to be very good at nuances of words, and they accuse you of 'arguing semantics' if you try to clarify.

[StewardofLOs]

True
However, in this convo, the other person had just stated that God disciplines her, including using punishments...
I could have asked her to clarify, but I didn't want it to turn into a "well your interpretation of your experience is wrong" kind of thing

And I love arguing semantics, especially after taking a semester course on the history of the English language with a final assessment requiring us to write a 10-20 page research paper on a word...

[saturnfire16]

I think your response was great!

I always find it interesting that the people who believe God punishes them get "spanked" every week and the people who don't believe that..... don't.

[ArmsOfLove]

I think your response was excellent!

I also think that some people have to spiritualize everything in such a way that "natural consequences" to bad choices become "God's punishments", etc. I'm not sure if they are trying to avoid responsibility for the natural consequences, or avoid learning the inherent lesson presented to them by the situation, or if this is just another manifestation of victim-status.

[rjy9343]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

I think your response was excellent!

I also think that some people have to spiritualize everything in such a way that "natural consequences" to bad choices become "God's punishments", etc. I'm not sure if they are trying to avoid responsibility for the natural consequences, or avoid learning the inherent lesson presented to them by the situation, or if this is just another manifestation of victim-status.

I always saw it as a logical conclusion to the punitive mindset. After all if you believe that God wants us to spank our kids when sin, then it makes perfect sense that God will spank you when you sin.
But now that you mention it, those who get the spankings are the ones who seem to be (I know this is a bad word choice, but I cannot think of a better way to say it) over churched and insist on blessing others or that they are blessed by x and stuff like that are the ones that stay in the wood shed.

[Domina]

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

I also think that some people have to spiritualize everything in such a way that "natural consequences" to bad choices become "God's punishments", etc. I'm not sure if they are trying to avoid responsibility for the natural consequences, or avoid learning the inherent lesson presented to them by the situation, or if this is just another manifestation of victim-status.

I've always wondered about this. But when I've said that, "Well, that's just life...no need to blame God..." I've been accused of deism.

[bolt.]

Some people with a 'wide' (I don't know if that is the right word) view of God, including a sense of 'providence' (even if they don't use that word) tend to think that 'natural consequences' are intentionally set up by God, not necessarily on an individual punitive basis, but as a broad-scale punishment that people trigger by their behaviour.

Since God did design the whole world, including what-leads-to-what, I can see where they are coming from when they basically equate "God set the world up so it painfully punishes people who behave badly, because it was His will to design things that way" -with- "God intentionally punishes people who behave badly, using circumstantial painful things to show His will".

However logical that is, and however long people have bought in to it (since OT times, really), it's still not right. The truth is that God designed the world to run well when people and things are in relationship with Him. When people reject that relationship, they die in the 'inner person' and the whole world stops running well.

The more unrighteous things a person does, the more likely (but not necessarily) they are to encounter direct results of the world 'not running well' in their own life and sphere. That's not happening because God 'wants it that way' -- it's happening because God respects our choices enough to let the consequences of our choices (mostly) run their course in the world He gave us to rule.

I see Him in grief-and-empathy over this, our own mess -- not as a harsh zapper-of-sinners. He still has/had choices.

1. He could not respect our choice to reject relationship with Him (treating us as beasts without basic freedom),

2. He could use His power to drastically limit the effects of our unrighteousness (depriving us of the agency to actually effect our own reality),

3. He could not limit the effects of our choice to reject Him *at all* (mercilessly allowing us to physically die at the moment we sin), and even *that* wouldn't be punishment, because death is the perfectly ordinary natural consequence of rejecting relationship with He who is the source of our very life. We only live past the moment of sin by His *mercy* -- and the choice to not apply mercy 100% of the time is not 'punitive'.

4. He could act as our teacher, showing and telling us how to live in righteous ways and establishing an autocratic relationship with a group of people in order to induce us to sometimes choose righteousness (out of respect for our relationship with Him) and to help us take it seriously when we fail to do so,

- or -

5. He can rescue us by salvation in extravagent grace, re-making us in freedom, from the inside out and establishing a 'fortress' of righteous people (and the consequences of their choices) in a hostile, dying world.

You can see evidence of most of those strategies throughout the Bible (except #1), but the impressive offer of extravagant grace of salvation is by far the most glorious.

[saturnfire16]

Originally Posted by bolt.

Some people with a 'wide' (I don't know if that is the right word) view of God, including a sense of 'providence' (even if they don't use that word) tend to think that 'natural consequences' are intentionally set up by God, not necessarily on an individual punitive basis, but as a broad-scale punishment that people trigger by their behaviour.

Since God did design the whole world, including what-leads-to-what, I can see where they are coming from when they basically equate "God set the world up so it painfully punishes people who behave badly, because it was His will to design things that way" -with- "God intentionally punishes people who behave badly, using circumstantial painful things to show His will".

I see it more like this:

God created gravity. If you attempt to defy gravity and jump up, you will fall down. (We'll ignore the invention of airplanes for the sake of argument here. )


God created rain. If you walk outside and stand in the rain you will get wet.

God created certain spiritual laws. If you defy them or walk outside of his protection, you will suffer the consequences. Sometimes the consequences are only a short fall or a drizzle that barely fazes you. Sometimes, you fall down 10 flights of stairs or get drenched.

When that happens, you can choose to learn from it or choose to climb right back up the stairs and throw yourself down again.

Whether it's with gravity or rain or spiritual laws, God set these things up, but it's our choices that either enact the consequences or not. God's not Zeus sitting atop Mt. Olympus with lightening bolts.

[ruhama]

I'm tired and a little ranty, so here's my whole-hearted agreement with the OP:

I completely agree and also haven't had anyone argue back at me when I make that point. People just don't know what to say.

Even if someone believes that God has designed the universe with built-in punishments, then aren't they saying he didn't do a good enough job by "piggy-backing" their own punishments onto his? They're interrupting the learning experience! Sorta like if you decided to run on some wet sidewalk & started to fall. If someone caught you then punched you in the face b/c you were "doing something dangerous" and THEY needed to "teach you a lesson" about safety - how weird and confusing would that be? You'd walk away being all like - dude that guy's a nutjob! But if they just caught you, you'd walk away with a sense that you'd overestimated your own agility and should probably be more careful next time. It's all about recognizing - oh *I* made a bad decision, not "this other person says I made a bad decision."

I blogged about this recently and came to the conclusion that the world has enough pain in it to teach the lessons it demands. My job is to point my kids toward God & model to them the path toward closer relationship with him.

[Zooey]

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

I see it more like this:

God created gravity. If you attempt to defy gravity and jump up, you will fall down. (We'll ignore the invention of airplanes for the sake of argument here. )


God created rain. If you walk outside and stand in the rain you will get wet.

God created certain spiritual laws. If you defy them or walk outside of his protection, you will suffer the consequences. Sometimes the consequences are only a short fall or a drizzle that barely fazes you. Sometimes, you fall down 10 flights of stairs or get drenched.

When that happens, you can choose to learn from it or choose to climb right back up the stairs and throw yourself down again.

Whether it's with gravity or rain or spiritual laws, God set these things up, but it's our choices that either enact the consequences or not. God's not Zeus sitting atop Mt. Olympus with lightening bolts.

This reminds me of something that a former pastor used to say: "If you jump off the Empire State Building, the law of gravity doesn't care if you're Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler; you still hit the sidewalk".
I remember it used to drive him crazy that so many people never make the connection between cause & effect; because that ends with them blaming God for things that happen because we live in a world which is less than perfect.......

[iwillhope]

I am so happy to be here and to be reading all this! My life seems to have been a continuous train wreck with me searching for that perfect relief from it all. Growing up with almost Pearl style training, then becoming an adult and floundering in my AP style and knowing in my heart that those type parenting techniques aren't right but battling with family about it (being the oddball and outsider it seemed), and I made one bad decision after another trying to gain unconditional love and acceptance on earth from a human being. As a result of these bad decisions are natural consequences. And God just wanted me to learn HIS unconditional love for me.

However, I get sooooooooooooooo tired of things be said about me by my loved ones "sin takes you farther than you want to go, keeps you longer than you want to stay, and makes you pay more than you want to pay." While that is true, I also believe that GOD called me to this road and had it not been for this road I would not be where i am today. And it frustrates me more b/c this same person has sin as well that has led to natural consequences but you can see that sin and it's effect. However, mine are blaring for the world to see. There is no difference. And I kind of would like to say something but then don't want to rock the boat b/c I have rocked it so much in my past and it gets ugly.

I did believe in God punishing b/c that is what I was taught...but He doesn't? does He. God draws us with loving kindness, not with a paddle beating our rear ends! Keep writing ladies, because I am listening and learning! With a HUGE OPEN HEART!

[StewardofLOs]

Originally Posted by iwillhope

I did believe in God punishing b/c that is what I was taught...but He doesn't? does He. God draws us with loving kindness, not with a paddle beating our rear ends! Keep writing ladies, because I am listening and learning! With a HUGE OPEN HEART!

I was reminded of this verse recently (because the song was playing in my head )

Romans 2:4: Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? (NIV)


Glad you're here!