"Under Loving Command" - Page 3

rjy9343 · 01-12-2012, 04:21 AM

I am willing to get on board with the idea that we train our children because I think that train and teach are more or less semantics. I have taught Ivy that I will always come when she calls. I have trained Ivy to believe that I will come when she calls. I have taught Ivy that she must comply, with or with out my help. I have trained Ivy to comply with or without help. I really think that training has a icky connotation because punitive parenting is all about training for first time obedience and keeping kids in their place. But we have trained our children how our home works and (in theory) to obey the house rules. But we are not using force in the sense that we are hurting or threatening our children. Ivy will comply with the rules, end of story. But how we gain her compliance looks different from punitive parents. For example Ivy is not to get into my wallet. If I forget to put my purse out of her reach, then I simply remind her to leave my wallet alone and ask her for it. If she will not give it to me, I take it from her and give her something that is okay for her to open and take apart. I don't hit her hand or tell her she is being bad or anything like that. Ivy is not supposed to climb into the book shelf. We have a door on it that we thought would keep her out of it.

When she gets into it, we pull her away and play with her. If we see her go for it, we give her the option of walking away from it without our help. If she chooses our help, then we take her away from it.
But I am not willing to get on board with the idea that I must use the rod to train or teach her. I don't like it when I hear that she runs things or that she rules the roost. A couple of nights ago, my husband's ceo remarked that she is the ruler of our home. I responded that as her spokeswoman, I had a list of requirements for the next place we live and named them.

(A town with a large number of gcms may have been named).I did hear another reference to hickory tea or other ick that or the next night.

CelticJourney · 01-12-2012, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjy9343

I am willing to get on board with the idea that we train our children because I think that train and teach are more or less semantics. .....
But I am not willing to get on board with the idea that I must use the rod to train or teach her. ......

While in essence I possibly agree with you - it's semantics - but in realiaty words have meaning beyond their dictionary foundation. Within this community, the word 'train' has baggage placed on it by Pearl, Ezzo and their ike to mean things that teach don't. I could see where the situation might have been reversed - if the puniitive oppressors of children had taken a 'I'll teach them to ever hesitate to obey with a thick rod' - but they didn't. If you were to say here at GCM or in the mainstream Christian world beyond: 'I train my child to do x' then there is a socially tied connotation to that word choice that says 'I train my child to do x, and I punish him if he does not'. What we mean and what is culturally understood are not always the same.

The closest comparison I have is the word 'comrad'. In essence it means friend, companion. Socially, it's tied to communism and oppression.

rjy9343 · 01-12-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CelticJourney

While in essence I possibly agree with you - it's semantics - but in realiaty words have meaning beyond their dictionary foundation. Within this community, the word 'train' has baggage placed on it by Pearl, Ezzo and their ike to mean things that teach don't. I could see where the situation might have been reversed - if the puniitive oppressors of children had taken a 'I'll teach them to ever hesitate to obey with a thick rod' - but they didn't. If you were to say here at GCM or in the mainstream Christian world beyond: 'I train my child to do x' then there is a socially tied connotation to that word choice that says 'I train my child to do x, and I punish him if he does not'. What we mean and what is culturally understood are not always the same.

The closest comparison I have is the word 'comrad'. In essence it means friend, companion. Socially, it's tied to communism and oppression.

I completely agree with you. I don't use train in the child rearing sense because it has been warped into something that it is not. Not unlike discipline which is another word I don't like to use for the same reason. (But that could just be my baggage). Just as I taught Ivy to trust me, I could also say that Ivy has been disciplined to trust me. But that makes me feel sick just typing it. I threw out the train/teach words to high light how it has been twisted. I hope that intent was clear and not taken to mean that I was defending them somehow.

CelticJourney · 01-12-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjy9343

I completely agree with you. I don't use train in the child rearing sense because it has been warped into something that it is not. Not unlike discipline which is another word I don't like to use for the same reason. (But that could just be my baggage). Just as I taught Ivy to trust me, I could also say that Ivy has been disciplined to trust me. But that makes me feel sick just typing it. I threw out the train/teach words to high light how it has been twisted. I hope that intent was clear and not taken to mean that I was defending them somehow.

No, no...knew you weren't defending them. My point was more the 'unofficial' and often 'unspoken' meanings that come with some words. I suppose because sometimes we have had new posters come here and use perfectly normal terminology without knowing that they are setting alarm bells off left and right, so it's just something I am more aware of.

NewLeaf · 01-12-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

After that the Lord gave us the grace to use the rod whenever our son did not obey.

Nice.

katiekind · 01-13-2012, 04:35 PM

Yes, NewLeaf, that sentence makes no logical sense. What kind of grace punishes every offense?

kbchavez · 01-19-2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiekind

Yes, NewLeaf, that sentence makes no logical sense. What kind of grace punishes every offense?

That sentence makes me think of the parable where the man who is forgiven a great debt goes and (assaults?) someone who owes him a much lesser amount. It's as though the parents ,like the man in the parable are saying, "Whoopee! I've been spared the punishment I deserve, so now I'm free to go pass judgment on you and mete out what YOU deserve.". Instead of being humbled by the grace and passing it on. It's just so icky, IMO.

Hermana Linda · 01-19-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbchavez

That sentence makes me think of the parable where the man who is forgiven a great debt goes and (assaults?) someone who owes him a much lesser amount. It's as though the parents ,like the man in the parable are saying, "Whoopee! I've been spared the punishment I deserve, so now I'm free to go pass judgment on you and mete out what YOU deserve.". Instead of being humbled by the grace and passing it on. It's just so icky, IMO.

You hit the nail on the head.

saturnfire16 · 01-19-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammaof3

I can not even believe this happens.......I swatted my daughters hand and sobbed right along with her, I apologized, but I still felt like such a failure

I can not even fathom how people can think that this is what God wants. How could that even come to mind.....Do these mothers get beat by their husbands too???

Unfortunately in some circles, yes.

It's called Christian Domestic Discipline and the husbands literally spank the wives.

rjy9343 · 01-19-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

Unfortunately in some circles, yes.

It's called Christian Domestic Discipline and the husbands literally spank the wives.

A lot of the language you read in literature like this is also in Christian Domestic Discipline literature as well.

Reading it was heart breaking and nauseating at the same time.

kbchavez · 01-19-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

Unfortunately in some circles, yes.

It's called Christian Domestic Discipline and the husbands literally spank the wives.

Yikes! What circles are those? I've learned of a lot of sick stuff that goes on in some churches here on GCM, but I didn't know about this! I guess I shouldn't be surprised though... There's probably some who still believe there's nothing wrong with slavery, either...

Beautiful Chaos · 01-19-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saturnfire16

Unfortunately in some circles, yes.

It's called Christian Domestic Discipline and the husbands literally spank the wives.

WOW,that is such a distorted view

Hermana Linda · 01-19-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjy9343

A lot of the language you read in literature like this is also in Christian Domestic Discipline literature as well.

Reading it was heart breaking and nauseating at the same time.

An example is the Spencer Plan.

HomeWithMyBabies · 01-19-2012, 06:35 PM

I've never seen this before. How messed up!

I just got to the part where they are talking about how they will continue to use the "rod" on their daughter as a teenager.

It's still hard to accept that people actually live like this.

Beautiful Chaos · 01-19-2012, 06:51 PM

"3.--A spanking must never be administered in anger. Wait until both parties are calm and it can be carried out properly."
SERIOUSLY?!?!!? The issue is OVER why spank when the issue is OVER
I am not saying spanking in anger is ok, but when it is over...

01-12-2012, 04:21 AM	#31
rjy9343 Rose Garden Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 10,090	Re: "Under Loving Command" I am willing to get on board with the idea that we train our children because I think that train and teach are more or less semantics. I have taught Ivy that I will always come when she calls. I have trained Ivy to believe that I will come when she calls. I have taught Ivy that she must comply, with or with out my help. I have trained Ivy to comply with or without help. I really think that training has a icky connotation because punitive parenting is all about training for first time obedience and keeping kids in their place. But we have trained our children how our home works and (in theory) to obey the house rules. But we are not using force in the sense that we are hurting or threatening our children. Ivy will comply with the rules, end of story. But how we gain her compliance looks different from punitive parents. For example Ivy is not to get into my wallet. If I forget to put my purse out of her reach, then I simply remind her to leave my wallet alone and ask her for it. If she will not give it to me, I take it from her and give her something that is okay for her to open and take apart. I don't hit her hand or tell her she is being bad or anything like that. Ivy is not supposed to climb into the book shelf. We have a door on it that we thought would keep her out of it. When she gets into it, we pull her away and play with her. If we see her go for it, we give her the option of walking away from it without our help. If she chooses our help, then we take her away from it. But I am not willing to get on board with the idea that I must use the rod to train or teach her. I don't like it when I hear that she runs things or that she rules the roost. A couple of nights ago, my husband's ceo remarked that she is the ruler of our home. I responded that as her spokeswoman, I had a list of requirements for the next place we live and named them. (A town with a large number of gcms may have been named).I did hear another reference to hickory tea or other ick that or the next night. __________________ Rita s IstJ Wife to my brilliant geek James iNtJ since 4/08 Mom to our angel boy Jay 5/08 our quirky miracle DD Ivy 6/10 mellow miracle DS Jacob 7/15 Often Please forgive my frequent typos Standing firmly on Team Lioness!!! Roar!!! I am ready for people to know I am a GCM find me on Facebook

01-13-2012, 04:35 PM	#36
katiekind Deactivated Peace be with you. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the sweet sunny south Posts: 15,346	Re: "Under Loving Command" Yes, NewLeaf, that sentence makes no logical sense. What kind of grace punishes every offense?

01-19-2012, 06:35 PM	#44
HomeWithMyBabies Rose Garden Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 24,062	Re: "Under Loving Command" I've never seen this before. How messed up! I just got to the part where they are talking about how they will continue to use the "rod" on their daughter as a teenager. It's still hard to accept that people actually live like this. __________________ Mom of 3

01-19-2012, 06:51 PM	#45
Beautiful Chaos Rose Trellis I live a wonderfully chaotic life! Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Upstate, NY Posts: 1,502	Re: "Under Loving Command" "3.--A spanking must never be administered in anger. Wait until both parties are calm and it can be carried out properly." SERIOUSLY?!?!!? The issue is OVER why spank when the issue is OVER I am not saying spanking in anger is ok, but when it is over... __________________ Megan Starting a new chapter! Sofia (01) Madeline(04) Quin(08) <>< <>< <>< Imaginations Creations You will win sweet mamma!!! facebook me Trimming the fat 4 life formerly known as mammaof3

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