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Old 02-18-2011, 08:55 AM   #76
BarefootBetsy
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by teamommy View Post
I wonder if we could make a list somewhere of people, books, and organizations that are associated with VF. As a homeschooler I don't want to inadverdantly sign up for anything involving them.
The people I know about:

RC Sproul Jr. (I don't think his father is, but Jr. definitely is and Jr. was defrocked several years ago too by his Presbytery)
Doug Wilson - Promotes the Multigenerational Faithfulness ideas
Doug Phillips (of course - he's in charge of VF)
Geoffrey and Victoria Botkin - Very high up in VF
Elizabeth and Anna Sofia Botkin (Geoff and Victoria's daughters)
Scott Brown - involved with the NCFIC, you can read his blog posts on their website, he was rebuked at Trinity Baptist Church in NC for abuse of spiritual authority in July of 2006
Philip Lancaster - Wrote Family Man, Family Leader which is promoted heavily on VF's website (and was published by them as well)
Jennie Chancey - promotes VF on her blog
Voddie Baucham - speaks at VF events and in their videos
Jasmine Baucham (Voddie's daughter)
James and Stacy McDonald (used to own Homeschooling Today magazine)
The Duggars (affiliated with both VF and Gothard)
Bill Gothard - there are quite a few overlaps between his followers and VF followers and they get funding from the same people
Michael Farris - Founded both the HSLDA and Patrick Henry College
Charles Provan - wrote The Bible and Birth Control which is used to validate the Quiverful doctrine by VF - this is Provan's only connection to VF as far as I know
Gary Bauer - Dominionist
Jonathan Lindvall - teaches that even a child's thoughts and feelings should be under submission to their father
Nancy Campbell - founder of Above Rubies magazine, has her books published through VF
Peter Bradrick - used to be the executive assistant to Doug Phillips, now is the operations manager for the NCFIC (see below)


Organizations, websites, and blogs - names, NOT links:

Visionary Womanhood - blog
Ladies Against Feminism - blog
National Center for Family Integrated Churches (NCFIC) - organization founded by Doug Phillips to further his ideals of "Biblical Patriarchy" in churches
Constitution Party - political party
HSLDA
Patrick Henry College (given $ by the same people who give Gothard, VF, and HSLDA $)
The Homeschool Leadership Summit (2009)
Hobby Lobby - crafting store which is affiliated with Gothard (TestifyToLove found this out a couple months ago).
Above Rubies - Promotes VF ideals such as Quiverful and women's "true" Godly calling being that of staying at home and raising children and being a help-meet to their husbands


Ideas/doctrine:

Multigenerational Faithfulness
Stay at home Daughters - it is a sin for daughters to not be under their father or brother's headship at all times - no college, no living on their own
Patriocentricity (they call it "Biblical Patriarchy") - the wife and children exist to glorify God through facilitating the husband/father's "vision" in whatever way the patriarch wants them to.
Quiverful - the use of any sort of BC to space or limit children is sinful and a sign of a lack of faith
Transfer of Authority - When ownership of a daughter passes from her father to her new husband
Covenental Homeschooling - not educating your own children at home is a sin
Isolating children from the sinful world - part of the reason for homeschooling
Dominionism - the idea that Christians should control secular government through political action

Vision Forum also pays homage to several racist folks who are no longer alive such as Robert Louis Dabney and RJ Rushdoony.


Many homeschooling conferences are affiliated with VF now - I don't know which ones, but VF and their affiliates were instrumental in banning certain curricula from the big homeschooling conferences. Sonlight is one of the curricula that was banned from several conferences and if you google "Sonlight banned" you'll find more information about this.



To sum up: VF has their fingers in many pies and their influence is creeping more mainstream all the time, from what I (and others) have noticed. I've had several friends get heavily involved in the heresies which VF promotes. It's so important to be vigilant with this issue! None of us here are any better or smarter than those who have become heavily entrenched in these beliefs. I can tell you that my friends who got involved in this stuff were very smart people, strong believers

I'm sure there are many more people associated with VF than I know of. Be vigilant and aware! I'm not one to throw the "c" word around much, but I do, with completely certainty, believe that Vision Forum is a cult.

VF's beliefs are extra-Biblical in origin, they call for isolation - especially of girls and young women who often receive sub-high school education as well since their purpose is to grow up and have babies and who aren't allowed to leave the home until they are married - and people are ostracized when they reject the teachings. Fathers are given all the power and women and children are marginalized which sets up a potentially abusive environment
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:58 AM   #77
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Please do send a letter.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:03 AM   #78
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Oh no, I'm quite disturbed that Hobby Lobby is affilitated with Vision Forum! I LOVE that store! We get lots of stuff that the kids use for their 4-H and scouting projects there, as well as decorative things for our home. I absolutely cannot shop there anymore if they have an affiliation with Vision Forum, and I will be writing to let them know why they will no longer have my business.

Does anyone know exactly what their link with Vision Forum is?
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:08 AM   #79
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

TTL knows more about the Hobby Lobby stuff than I do.

This article (thejournal.org/issues/issue64/swan.html) is probably a good starting place for how Hobby Lobby is associated with Gothard's IBLP (which is associated with VF), but I'll PM TTL and maybe she can come here and explain more.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:28 AM   #80
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Here are some more names which I believe to be involved: Bob Jones Jr., Gary Bauer, Jonathan Lindvall, Mary Pride, ATI, Basic Life Principles.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:40 AM   #81
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Hobby Lobby purchases real estate, develops it and either donates or sells at cost despite the effort of development it to Bill Gothard for his purposes.

Quote:
David Green, CEO, Hobby Lobby
“Through the example and teachings of Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles, we have benefited both as a family and in our business. It is as we take those lessons from God’s Word that Bill clearly articulates that we live the full life that God intends.”
There is a very clear connection between Hobby Lobby and Bill Gothard. There appears to be a personal friendship between Gothard and the Hobby Lobby CEO.

If you google, you can find reference to properties in several areas which Hobby Lobby has bought and then sold at cost to Gotthard (after spending Hobby Lobby money to renovate and develop it to whatever Gothard wants it to be). There are several properties in Nashville in the last several years, and a property was just provided to Gothard this last fall, iirc.

Hobby Lobby also officially and formally supports Oral Roberts University, which is dominionist. Quite a few of their charity affiliations are Dominionist, but there is a direct connect between Hobby Lobby and Bill Gothard that they don't file under charity work for whatever reason they do so.

Just an FYI though, the Duggars no longer use ATI materials. They now use SOS from Alpha Omega Publishers. I'm not sure if they changed their opinion on Gothard, though they have been seen promoting Gothard less and VF more in the last couple of years. They still have strong ties and friendships within ATI, so the transition may have been an issue of practicality simply because the older girls can more adequately supervise education if all of the younger children are moved onto computer based schooling, which is what SOS is.

VF is creepy and scary. The work they are doing to destroy the spirit and individual souls of girls is just sickening to me. Its unbiblical, and they coach it in nonsense straw man arguments so you are too busy thinking how "pretty" and "idyllic" it looks to actually THINK about what they are saying and the full implications of it. VF and Dominionist roles in this new Stay at Home Daughter's movement, the purity movement and how they are now trying to control girls is sadistic and abusive. It is absolutely the stepping stone into deep psychological and sexual abuse and no one seems to be willing to run screaming that the emporer is NAKED here...except ironically Micheal Pearl who is EXTREMELY harsh on his opinion of this nightmare that is coming.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:41 AM   #82
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I'll add those to my post so it can be as comprehensive as possible.

I forgot to add Dominionism as one of their beliefs/doctrines also That's a big one too!
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:57 AM   #83
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I am almost certain that Bob Jones Jr. is not associated. I went to college at BJU when Dr. Bob Jr. was still alive, and his and the school's teachings are directly opposed to many of the things VF teaches. BJU is a university that heavily recruits from the homeschool community--why would they support an organization that teaches college is basically evil? They actively teach that adult (college-age) children should follow God rather than their parents when they feel that God is leading them to do something with which their parents disagree. Bob Jones Jr. could rightly be called fundamentalist and possibly separatist, but to my knowledge he is not and never has been part of the patriarchy movement.

Mary Pride has also recently come out publicly speaking against patriarchy. www. home-school.com/Articles/phs89-marypride.html

Mary says,
Quote:
Patriarchy Is a Bad Word

Literally, "patriarchy" means "father-supreme-leadership." However, in the Christian home (and the Patriarchy movement is a Christian movement), Jesus is Lord, not Dad. So right from the start, the emphasis is in the wrong place.
(emphasis in original)

Some of the others listed are involved in the conservative homeschool movement but may not be directly connected with VF.

I think if we are going to make a list it would be good to include facts and evidence of exactly how these people are connected with VF.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:16 AM   #84
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
I am almost certain that Bob Jones Jr. is not associated. I went to college at BJU when Dr. Bob Jr. was still alive, and his and the school's teachings are directly opposed to many of the things VF teaches. BJU is a university that heavily recruits from the homeschool community--why would they support an organization that teaches college is basically evil?
Thank you, that is a good point. I got those names from my tags on my patriocentric category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo View Post
Mary Pride has also recently come out publicly speaking against patriarchy. www.home-school.com/Articles/phs89-marypride.html
I got that from the Wiki Article:
Quote:
Mary Pride (born 1955) is an American author and magazine producer on homeschooling and Christian topics. She is best known for her homeschooling works, but has also written on women’s roles, computer technology in education, parental rights, and new age thought from a conservative evangelical perspective. For her pioneering role in authoring guides for the homeschooling movement, Pride has been described as "the queen of the home school movement" and as a "homeschooling guru".[1][2][3] Stemming from her first book, The Way Home, she is also considered a pioneer in the Christian Quiverfull movement.[4][5][6][7][8][9]
But I guess that Quiverfull does not equal Patriarchy.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:22 AM   #85
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
But I guess that Quiverfull does not equal Patriarchy.
IT DOESN'T!

We are 'QF'. In that we don't use any prevention at all. We let babies come as God sees fit.
We don't follow anything else that many people would say fits the 'QF' mold. In fact, my hubby LOATHES that label.

I was glad when Mary Pride wrote that article. The two are not synonymous. And that's ok! For some the two are tied together, but it sure doesn't have to be.

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Old 02-18-2011, 11:25 AM   #86
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

I am so sad to hear of Hobby Lobby's connection with Gothard. We get a lot of craft things there.

I am finding the aspect of men getting physical attention from their daughters to be really really creepy.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:26 AM   #87
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

uh yeah. Major ick.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:28 AM   #88
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

IMO, the Quiverfull Movement is tied inextricably with Patriarchy but individuals who use the term QF to describe themselves aren't necessarily patriarchal. It's getting to the point though that those people who simply don't limit family size but don't have any of the other trappings of the movement will need to find a different term to describe themselves because really when I hear QF I immediately connect it to VF and their ilk.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:32 AM   #89
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Striving4Grace View Post
IMO, the Quiverfull Movement is tied inextricably with Patriarchy but individuals who use the term QF to describe themselves aren't necessarily patriarchal. It's getting to the point though that those people who simply don't limit family size but don't have any of the other trappings of the movement will need to find a different term to describe themselves because really when I hear QF I immediately connect it to VF and their ilk.
I think you're right. The two are VERY tied together, which is lame...because not everyone who chooses "QF" is like that
What's a bummer, is being a weirdo and being "QF"..often when you look for other who are like minded, VF and those like that are often all you can find.

Hmm...a new term? I like 'weirdo' myself. I'm cool with that.

Last edited by blessedmamaofmany; 02-18-2011 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:06 PM   #90
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Default Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootBetsy View Post
VF's beliefs are extra-Biblical in origin, they call for isolation - especially of girls and young women who often receive sub-high school education as well since their purpose is to grow up and have babies and who aren't allowed to leave the home until they are married - and people are ostracized when they reject the teachings. Fathers are given all the power and women and children are marginalized which sets up a potentially abusive environment
The bolded is highly short-sighted, to the point it bewilders me, they expect poorly educated women to then home-educate the next generation? I have often heard it said in reference to charities promoting/supporting education in third world countries "educate a man and you educate a man, educate a woman and you educate a family" or in other words if it's a situation where the women are primarily doing the child-raising/homework or homeschooling etc then they need to know what they're trying to teach their children...
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