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Old 03-22-2010, 04:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: Collected Past Posts about the Five Steps

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Title: help with 5 steps
Poster: gratefulmama 05-04-2005 09:10 PM
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My just turned 2 year old is being sooo difficult right now. It is a chore to get his cooperation on anything, from diaper changes, to getting dressed everything is "no" and usually a meltdown. We are using the five steps and they seem to not be working. For example it is time to come inside I give him wrap up warnings, touch him and tell him it is time to go in, he says no and runs away, I catch him, look in the eye again & tell him he may walk inside on his own or mommy will help him in by carrying him (which sucks b/c the baby is in the sling) he runs off again, I pick him up and carry him in, or at least untill his is yelling, "self self" (meaning he'll walk by himself) but then he runs off again so I carry him (bear hug as much as possible) and dd in and he lays on the floor in the house carrying on about walking in by himself Same with diapers etc. Do we just keep at it and he will learn or what am I doing wrong??

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4LovesMom 05-06-2005 04:24 AM
Re: help with 5 steps
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Oh my goodness, someone else with more experience, please answer! I wish I could give you some great insight, but I'm so new to this, I feel like we're still just practicing and feel pretty unsure sometimes. But especially since I see your kids are the same ages as my two youngest, I really sympathize. And good for you for trying to figure this out. I bet some of his behavior might have to do with the new baby - although it seems everyone tries to blame everything on that with my kids and sometimes I see the validity but not always.
Anyway, I'll be watching along with you to hear what advice you get!

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ArmsOfLove 05-10-2005 05:16 PM
Re: help with 5 steps
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I have to apologize--I usually do "show unread posts since last visit" and it doesn't always make sense--I didn't realize there were so many posts in this forum I was missing )

With a 2yo you might need to abbreviate the steps sometimes. For instance, if he is in a phase where he always needs help then use the wording of step one *while* doing step 4 and helping. Sometimes they need to learn very strongly that your words have meaning. Also, try some other tools. 1, 2, 3 Transition was developed for 2yo's and diaper changes. I explain that they have until the count of 3 (counted reasonably slow) to find a place to lay down and I will change their diaper wherever they lay down. If they don't lay down by the count of 3 (and with one child they ran and laid down at 1, one of them waited until I'd said "3 . . . find a place" ) then I get to choose the place. Then, even if they fuss and fight me, I lay them down and change their diaper--fast, of course

Also, 2 is the age where they are starting their steps to independance and it's helpful to encourage them to do as much as they can for themselves--it helps them feel *big* and cuts down on the fighting you. Encourage him to get himself dressed, and as much as possible have this as part of a morning routine that flows naturally so it's expected that, for example, after breakfast he brushes his teeth and then gets dressed (whatever your routine it, just so that he knows it and can feel safe and propel himself along--and if you're not very structured please know this is the area I struggle most with ).

hth

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gratefulmama 05-11-2005 02:23 AM
Re: help with 5 steps
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I am finding that the steps have to be abreviated or else we spend way too long talking about what I need him to do so thanks for the afermation on that one, the 1,2,3 transition is not working very well right now but has worked in the past so I guess we just need to keep at it so that he realizes that our words do have meaning. Thanks for the doing things himself tip, he is wanting too do more things on his own and teaching him to get dressed might be very interesting to him. I

I feel so frustrtated that I can't seem to help him right now, he is having so many more meltdowns and struggles right now and I know it is the phase of life he is in (turned 2, got a new sibling, teeth etc) I just wish I could help him more. I just got the I love you rituals book and I love it already. I am praying that it will help us all reconnect a little bit.

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ArmsOfLove 05-11-2005 02:29 AM
Re: help with 5 steps
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Oh isn't that book great

2 is tough until you accept them doing more on their own

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Title: Skipping the 5 steps?
Poster: Mothering by Heart 08-21-2005 09:59 PM
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I have been pondering lately, the way I have been doing things in regards to discipline, and I am confusing myself.

Ex. When a toy had been left scattered around the living room (and it is time for dinner, say) I will say, "Natalie, it is time for dinner, but you need to pick up x first." She will say , "not me want to." Then I say, "Okay well, we are eating. You may come eat after you have done x."

Then I go on with getting ready to eat, etc., and just leave her to do it. She sees that we are going to eat and picks it up and comes to eat.

I do this same thing with all the kids. Now, am I just being lazy and I don't want to deal with it, or is it because I have done the 5 steps and they know that they are going to do have to do it?

And is this okay?

ETA: I don't really think I am being lazy. I just see that saying, "when you do x, then you may do y" is working. They decide if they are going to pick it up. So maybe the 5 steps are for when you need something to be done now. See, I'm confusing myself. :/

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expatmom 08-21-2005 10:33 PM
Re: Skipping the 5 steps?
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This is sort of what I do, so I'll be interested in the responses.

What happens if she comes to dinner without picking up the toy?

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4blessings 08-21-2005 10:47 PM
Re: Skipping the 5 steps?
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We don't do the five steps, either. Before I discovered GBD, I read a positive discipline article that you shouldn't repeat a request, but instead you move to help the child follow your directions if they're not moving to do it on their own. That's just the habit I got into with parenting my children. I tried the five steps after discovering GBD, but after all those years (10!) it just seemed too awkward to me and my children seemed to think that they didn't have to obey me right away anymore, but could wait for me to ask, "Do you need my help?" LOL! This was particularly annoying to me b/c they were suddenly asking for help with things they'd long been doing without my help.

I say something like, "We can read a book after you've put your toys away." or "You can come and eat as soon as you've picked up your blocks." For some reason, not doing it is not an issue. I think my children know by now that I mean what I say so they just do it. Of course, when they were younger (and still with my littlest one who is 3.5) I often had to help them get started, but I still didn't do the five steps.

I'm not at all saying that the five steps don't work. I just learned differently and was too old to change.

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milkmommy 08-21-2005 11:08 PM
Re: Skipping the 5 steps?
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I think part of GBD is adjusting needs towards your child and the situations. Sometimes the five steps here looks just like "advertised' sometimes I only use say steps one and skip to four and step five is like never used.
In the OP example I think if 1) the childs old enough to understand 2) Your not making it a punitive mind set then I see nothing wrong with what your doing.
Deanna

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ArmsOfLove 08-21-2005 11:11 PM
Re: Skipping the 5 steps?
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Yes to all of the above. I cut out steps, and I use other tools sometimes I do find the 5 Steps to be excellent for a child when you have something that needs to be done on your timeline and very helpful (though I do drop step 2 for this) when establishing myself with a child.

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Title: Five Steps question
Poster: ozmummy 04-27-2006 06:07 AM
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OK My question is about dd changing her mind about "help" and then ending up repeating the five steps over and over.

This is an example as this type of scenario can happen in different ways...

Last night it was bath time. I had given them warning that it was coming up. It's part of a regular night time routine, so not unexpected.

Dd is 2yr11mo. She had already said that she doesn't want a bath when I told them that it would be bathtime when we had finished packing away.

Me "We're finished packing away. It's bathtime"
Dd " I don't want a bath!!" (in a loud voice)
Me " You don't want a bath tonight"
Dd "I don't want a bath!!!" (louder)
Me "it's bath time, can you walk to the bathroom by yourself, or do you need help"
Dd "I DON"T WANT A BATH!! (she just screams things like this louder and louder, and doesn't listen to what I'm saying...whatever the situation)
Me "Looks like you're having trouble doing it by yourself, I'm coming to help you'"
Dd "I DON"T WANT A BATH!!!" continues to scream this
Me "I'm coming to help you"
I come and pick her up and start carrying her to the bathroom. When we're halfway there she starts screaming "BY SELF!! BY SELF!!!"
Me "You want to walk by yourself?"
DD "Yes" (semi-calm)

So I put her down. She goes back to the starting point where I picked her up. But just stands there.

So we end up repeating the five steps again. It just seems ridiculous

So then I ended up picking her up again, and of course she started "BY SELF!!! BY SELF!!. But I didn't let her down, because I could see the situation repeating ad nauseum.

So we get to the bathroom, and she is screaming hysterically. I try and do the five steps for taking her clothes off and hopping in the bath.

She is still screaming "BY SELF!! BY SELF!!

So I stop and say that walking to the bathroom is finished. I reflect to her that she really wanted to do it by herself, and she agrees. And calms down a bit. But I can't keep going back to the start again. When I do we just end up doing the whole 5 steps again. So I just say, "If you want to do it by yourself, you need to do it when mummy says" I'm not sure if she really understands that? So as soon as she realises I'm not going to let her go back out to walk in by herself, she just starts the hysterical screaming again "BY SELF!! BY SELF!!"

So I go through the 5 steps about undressing, she doesn't really respond so I start undressing her. And then that just adds to it, because now whe wants to undress by herself. I just do it and plonk her in the bath, and wash her. Doing it all, because by now she is just a hysterical mess and I have 2 other children to cope with as well as get dinner, and dh is working evenings...(Where is the tearing your hair out emoticon?)

OK That is a typical situation. It happens probably once a day? Do I allow her to attempt to do it by herself when she wants to after she is already receiving help? If so, what happens when she doesn't then make any attempt to do it by herself? Or is that option lost once help is happening? It seems that she is really trying to see if I am serious about making these things happen?

Thanks guys

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Amber 04-27-2006 06:22 AM
Re: Five Steps question
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For me, if they wanted to try to do it themself after I had started helping then I would let them have a chance to do it...but if they then refused I wouldn't repeat the 5 steps I would say "you need Mommy's help" and go on helping them. I would also try some playful parenting, asking her if she could hop to the bathroom like a bunny or if she would like to fly like an airplane.

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Joanne 04-27-2006 10:55 AM
Re: Five Steps question
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My kids don't get another chance to do it themselves. If, by that time in the steps, they've actively or passively chosen my help, I give help and move on.

I agree and encourage the playful parenting idea. However, I'll be honest and say that by that time of day and with more than one child, my playful is running out.

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loveberry 04-27-2006 01:37 PM
Re: Five Steps question
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I'm not that big on pushing baths. I'd skip the bath unless she was covered in something that would get her sick or something like that.

However, for a situation that had to happen, I agree with the other posters. Once we've passed the getting help step we don't really backtrack. If he seemed like he was calming down and really capable of doing whatever it was, I might let him try, but I would be in a physical position to start the making it happen again immediately.

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ozmummy 04-30-2006 08:47 AM
Re: Five Steps question
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Thanks for reminding me of the playful option

My oldest is so *serious* and never responded well to this type of thing, so it kind of got buried at the bottom of the parenting tool box. However, I think dd will respond to this type of thing really well - Last night I gave her the option of jumping like a frog, or sliding like a snake to the bath, and she slid like a snake to the bath, and then to the toilet the next day *every* time she needed to go

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Title: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
Poster: euromom 07-04-2006 03:03 AM
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I had started applying the Five Steps to 19mo DS and the second step is to repeat what you request. Then I saw so much about Joanne's GOYBP on here that I had to check it out and she specifically states NOT to repeat yourself. I guess is this just one of those things that you have to see what works best for you and your child? I had been repeating myself and then going to help him to do what he could not do himself (sitting down on the couch is the big one!) But now I'm realizing maybe I should just state it once and then go help him???

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Heather Micaela 07-04-2006 03:05 AM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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this answer is a bit brief b/c I wass signing off now, but I think both are valid in different circumstances

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Bonnie 07-04-2006 03:16 AM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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My feeling has been that I'm more 5-step oriented with my currently very young children, but as they mature and can handle more I'd lean away from repeating myself. The attitude of request followed by making it happen is still very much in line with each other.

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ArmsOfLove 07-04-2006 03:18 AM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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GOYBP is sort of an abbreviated 5 Steps. I talk often about adapting them based on the age and personality of the child. There are many stages where I start with step 1 (always say the words of step 1) and then move to whatever step is needed--make it happen (as in GOYBP). When it's something like running into the street I say, "you need to stay out of the street," WHILE I do step 4 and pick them up and move them. If a child is going through a stage where they passively resist doing what I've said I bump it up to say it once then make it happen. As soon as they are pretty consistently able to do it without help I move back to using steps 2 and 3.

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euromom 07-04-2006 03:27 AM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove
Quote:
GOYBP is sort of an abbreviated 5 Steps. I talk often about adapting them based on the age and personality of the child. There are many stages where I start with step 1 (always say the words of step 1) and then move to whatever step is needed--make it happen (as in GOYBP). When it's something like running into the street I say, "you need to stay out of the street," WHILE I do step 4 and pick them up and move them. If a child is going through a stage where they passively resist doing what I've said I bump it up to say it once then make it happen. As soon as they are pretty consistently able to do it without help I move back to using steps 2 and 3.
Thanks Crystal, that helps! I think I will need to do more GOYBP for the sitting on the couch and climbing on the table thing until he gets it and then perhaps move to the 5 steps as he gets older and understands it more. He never sits no matter how many times I say it so I might as well move in right away to help him. Maybe I should even say it AND help him at the same time like you would with the child running into the street.

That really does help answer my question! Thanks!

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TulipMama 07-04-2006 08:52 AM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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Both are valuable.

For me, I found that having the Five Steps helped me transition in my thoughts and attitudes to really wanting to help my children. Taking the time to ask "Do you need me to help you?" not as a threat as I would in the old days, but as a sign of respect and opportunity for teaching and teamwork was very valuable to me.

I think if I started with GOYB with my toddlers/when we were transitioning away from punitive parenting, then I would have stayed stuck in a punitive mindset longer. Ie, "say it once, make it happen" would not have been good for my still-punitive thinking. (Not that Joanne is punitive! Or GOYB is punitive! Just trying to explain how that would not have been the best for me either with my away-from-punitive transition nor with my toddlers. *grin*)

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euromom 07-04-2006 01:51 PM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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Originally Posted by TulipMama
Quote:
I think if I started with GOYB with my toddlers/when we were transitioning away from punitive parenting, then I would have stayed stuck in a punitive mindset longer. Ie, "say it once, make it happen" would not have been good for my still-punitive thinking. (Not that Joanne is punitive! Or GOYB is punitive! Just trying to explain how that would not have been the best for me either with my away-from-punitive transition nor with my toddlers. *grin*)
That's a good point too. Something to keep in mind in watching my attitude in how I say it if I am saying it only once! Thanks for sharing!

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mummy2boys 07-05-2006 03:01 AM
Re: The Five Steps vs Joanne's GOYBP
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I agree...I have used both it different situations too
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