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Old 03-25-2005, 03:25 PM   #12
Katherine
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Default Re: Proverbs 23:13-14/Q's about the rod

Quote:
Can any parental action ensure a child's salvation?
I strongly believe the answer to this is NO.

I do not believe that we contribute to our salvation in any way. If we did, we could take partial credit for it, and I think it's clear in scripture that salvation is "not by works of righteousness which we have done... " and that "by grace are ye saved through faith, and that [e.g. the faith] not of yourselves, It is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast."

(just to let you know where my comments are coming from..)

I believe that God can and does use different means to draw His sheep into the fold, and that my "constant presence" of authority and the way I model God's love for my child can be USED by God as a means to my child's grace (salvation).... thus the exhortation. Again, I think the genre of the book of Proverbs is such an important piece of the argument you are making... it is symbolic, poetic, "wisdom sayings", etc.

I really think this verse is painting a word picture of just how *important* our disciplinary presence is for children... trying to impress upon us just how vital a role it can play in the spiritual journey of our children.. I don't think it is a literal command with a literal promise attached to it. e.g. "Hit your kid with a big stick, and I promise they'll go to heaven when they die."

I don't know many Protestants, much less Calvanists, who would take that last part literally, so maybe you can just ask him if he thinks it is meant as a literal guarantee from God, and then go from there. If he's willing to concede that the last part of the verse is not literal, you have a strong leg to stand on when making the point that the preceding phrase/words is not meant literally either.

Also wanted to add a different spin. I am Reformed PCA now, but I grew up Independent Baptist, and I wanted to add some thoughts about how this verse was understood in my old church. I hesitated to include this, b/c I don't want to derail the point of the OP, offend anyone, or start a discussion that would be more suitable for Theological issues. However, it seems relevant to the verses we are discussing here. We can start a different thread if need be. So.. to all reading. This was my experience:

Even though all pastors and teacers and members would vehemently insist that salvation was by grace, through faith, not of works, etc. and that we couldn't save ourselves, they *actually* believed there was one exception to that rule (although they wouldn't have qualified it as an exception) That was choice. They believed we had the power to reject or accept Christ, and that power of choice was the exception. God's grace couldn't overcome our choice to reject him. Christ's blood didn't atone for the sin of unbelief (though no one would have phrased it quite that way) Our choice was necessary in order to obtain salvation. They didn't consider it "saving ourselves" but they stressed the importance of that choice. This led to a subtle belief that we also had some power regarding the salvation of those around us. If only we convinced them effectively enough... if only we persuaded them eloquently enough.. if only we prayed hard enough, pressured long enough, set a good enough example, etc. Many parents, while giving lip service to their children being in God's hands, still held to the belief that if they only raised their children "right enough" they were bound to become Christians. Imagine the weight of guilt experienced by the parents whose children did not proclaim Christ!

This verse was often used to support that thinking... "Do not be afraid to spank them! You won't kill them with a spanking, and your strong discipline will keep them on the straight and narrow path! If you let a tender heart sway the hand of your discipline, you are condemning your child to hell... " and so on. M. Pearl makes similar statements in his writings. The very strong implication, of course, is that you--by way of your parenting choices--are saving your child from hell if you DO spank or discipline them.

Don't know which direction your pastor is coming from, but I just thought you might want to consider the logic from both perspectives: the we-don't-do-anything-to-save-ourselves POV and the our-choice-is-the-last-essential-ingredient-in-our-salvation POV.
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