[forty-two]

Originally Posted by peridot

I think too that the phrase 'leaving the faith' is an unweildy and deceptive way to describe what we fear.

We tend to fear any choices our children might make that do not echo our own. This usually includes attending a different denomination, marrying a 'non-believer', or for women especially- choosing a career over children.
<snip>
so don't confuse 'leaving the faith'- ie. church- with leaving Christ. They are NOT the same thing.

Agree and disagree .

Agree that leaving any given institutional church or given belief/behavior is not the same as leaving the *Church*, as leaving Christ . Changing our *practice* of our faith, rejecting some practices, is not rejecting our faith itself .

But leaving the faith *is* leaving Christ.

And I think the reason we conflate the two is that we see the visible things - choice of church, beliefs professed, actions lived - in short, how we *practice* our faith - as proxies for the invisible, key thing - actual faith in Christ (which is a gift from God, not an action of ours).

And it *is* true, to an extent. Our faith *does* shine forth in what we think and do .

The problem comes when people mistake the proxies for the real thing . When they start thinking that it's a two way street - that not only does our *practice* of our faith flow from our faith itself, but our actual faith is likewise strengthened or weakened by our practice of it . Our *experience* of our faith certainly is impacted by our practice or non-practice of it , but our faith itself is a gift from God and its validity, its existence, rests in *God's* hands, not ours .

Thus you get the phenomenon of Christians wanting to make sure their (presumed unbelieving) children (or fellow citizens) outwardly behave like believers because they believe that it will pave the way for true belief . That just as true faith leads to good works, good works lead to true faith .

It gets even worse when you get locked into seeing one particular set of proxies as the One True Way . Or even insist that the proxies aren't just visible reflections of faith, but are in fact essential components of faith, of salvation - and leaving them really *is* leaving the faith . That right practice is *essential* to salvation .

It seems to me that in this thread people are still falling into the same trap - equating our practice of our faith with our faith itself - combating the symptoms of that false assumption but not digging deep enough to combat the assumption itself .

---------- Post added at 11:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 AM ----------

Originally Posted by peridot

WHat we really SHOULD fear (actually we shouldn't fear it but this should be our true concern) is that our children fail to see Godly example in us or that having seen it- fail to choose relationship with Him.

It is my sincere belief that you MUST not use PAIN to teach LOVE!!! Using pain to teach obedience and using pain while saying 'This is because i love you' teaches children to accept all kinds of abusive relationships.

If my children fall in Love with Christ- I want it to be because they have seen how deeply He loves them- and how His love creates real Love in me and how Holy Spirit creates desireable fruit in me.

Speaking to the rest of this, I *do* fear my children leaving the faith - i.e. rejecting Christ. It is an understandable fear, imo. The key is what I do about it. Ultimately, *I* can't keep them in the faith. I can model it for them, but *I* can't make them believe . All I can do it turn it over to God - pray that He keeps them in the faith . That they won't fall - that *I* won't fall . That I don't drive them from God .

The problem comes when I think *I* can do something about it, that *I* have some control over *their* faith . And focusing on *me* and *my* efforts to show God to my dc in a loving way is just as fear-inducing and counterproductive as focusing on *me* and *my* efforts to make them behave godly . In both cases the focus is on *me* and my kids believing or not believing b/c of *me* . This is just as fear and guilt-inducing a place to be - it's the *exact same place*, in fact - just with different techniques. But the core idea - that *I* can and must do things sufficiently "right" for my dc to have a relationship with God - is identical.

But the blessed reality is that it's *not* all on me .

(And I'm not trying to pick on you specifically . I just wanted to point out that "showing God through our love" can easily turn into parenting from a place of fear instead of parenting from a place of love and faith .)