Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Okay so I have heard talk of Vision Forum lately and was wondering if someone could tell me about it. What they believe? Are they icky? Are they good? Are they both? I want to be informed so I know at least some to carry on a conversation.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

They are patriarchal Calvinists (though many Calvinists disavow their brand of belief - they're kinda fringy and proud of it). They also have this big thing about the dominion mandate in Genesis - go forth and fill and subdue the earth (iirc) - that seems very central. They talk about it a lot anyhow, but tbh I don't get why its so important to them :shrug3. I think they are Quiverfull, too.

Anyway, it's their partriarchal stance that draws the most fire. Completely messed up theologically, imnsho ;), though some of them make it sound really appealing (the Botkin sisters, in particular). But mostly reality doesn't live up to the hype, partly b/c the dynamic itself is practically tailormade for screwing people up, even if they were doing well to start with. Power corrupts, you know, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And their setup gives men absolute control over their families - even well-meaning men get messed up by that, let alone already controlling ones :(. Only by the grace of God can people not be ruined by that kind of power - and the VF idiots raise it up as the *ideal* :hunh:banghead.

(No, I don't have big feelings about this :shifty - why do you ask? ;))

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Their version of patriarchy is wishy-washy wrt gender roles. One the one hand, they are all strict about a "traditional" division - women home, men outside home - but they also have this big helpmeet thing for women going on, which basically means they do whatever their dad/hubby needs them to do to help them be successful. This is where they emphasize the important of a top-notch (home) education for all (some form of classical, usually) - b/c an educated woman can be a better mother and helpmeet (no argument there). And it's where several of the leading daughters/wives in the movement have done some pretty adventurous things and learned some "manly" skills, and overall act like strong women - in service of their dad/dh. This is the vision the Botkin sisters in particular are selling - be strong for your family, not outsiders - and it is *compelling* :yes.

But mostly it seems to be a reality only in the top families (and maybe not even then) - b/c if your dad/dh doesn't need/want you to be a strong woman, well, sucks to be you, I guess. Be happy with your God-given-through-your-dad/dh-role, however it underutilizes you :-/

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Icky. Most definitely icky! Very patriarchal. Very separate roles for men and women (not bad if people choose it, IMO, but they say it's the only Biblical way).

Geoffrey Botkin is one of their main people now and he's big into multigenerational faithfulness - he made a 200 year plan with all his children's lives plotted out and his grandchildren's lives plotted out. Apparently his children's lives are supposed to revolve around helping HIM (their father) achieve his "vision." That's what they teach other men that they're supposed to do also... the children simply exist to serve their earthly father and his goals. It's called patriocentricity. Google it. Fascinating things come up when you do!

Botkin was also part of the Great Commission cult a couple decades ago... I wouldn't trust a word that came out of the man's mouth.

His daughters are big in the "stay at home daughter" movement which is creepy to say the least (you don't want me to get into it... I have HUGE feelings about this whole thing...). They believe that it's sinful (or at least unwise) for daughters to go away to college. Daughters should live at home as their father's "help-meet in training" until they get married after courting after their father approves of the man.

Most of these things are not WRONG, per se, but they've elevated these things to doctrine and salvation issues. Vision Forum looks innocent enough on the surface... but beneath that surface... there's a lot of very distasteful stuff.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

They are also extremely punitive :(

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Here is what I have about them on my blog.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

One of my major disagreements with the Vision Forum and related groups is their use of the word "defraud." To defraud someone is to deceive that person in order to take something away. However, VF and related literature says that a woman or girl who exposes or emphasizes certain parts of her body is defrauding men or boys who see her. The implication is that she is deceiving them because her body is an automatic promise of sex and the thing she is taking away is the sex they have a right to expect from a woman or girl who straddles a fence/hitches up her skirt/grows breasts that make her blouses tight over the summer/whatever. Of course, if she agreed that she had inadvertently promised sex by straddling the fence and went on to give them what they thought they had the right to expect, she would be a fornicating harlot or whatever.

Basically, if you're female, you can never be as pure or holy as a man, because you have a woman's body. And men have the right to use you as they see fit.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

The "defrauding" and extreme modesty aspects are also pretty demeaning to men, IMO. Those poor little men who can't control their animal natures need us women to cover nearly every square inch of our bodies in order to stop them from sinning.

There's no responsibility for men to keep themselves from sinning by, oh, I don't know, turning their heads AWAY from the temptation. There's no accountability for men either. All that responsibility for the men's lust is given to the women and girls.

Not to say that modesty isn't a positive thing... but not when it's used to absolve an entire gender of the responsibility for their own sin and instead places the responsibility for that sin on the other gender.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

There is one history DVD that I desperately want but I haven't been able to convince myself that it would be acceptable to pay VF to get it.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

If you want a vivid picture of how extremely icky they are, check out the way Father Botkin's daughter describes herself and keep in mind this is what they believe to be the ultimate in service to their Father and god. (Yup, I reversed the capitalization on purpose...)

Elizabeth Botkin has the privilege of assisting Geoffrey Botkin in his lifework. She finds her identity among her beloved father, her wonderful mother, Victoria, her sister and her five brothers, and finds her stimulation and adventure in helping them on reformation projects affecting family, church, and state. Through the grace of God, she has been learning over the years how to submit her will to her father and channel her interests into avenues that further his vision. She and her sister serve their father through their interests in filmmaking, orchestral harp, history, music theory and composition, theology, studying speech and deportment, the reconstruction of the West, hospitality, classical piano, the persecuted church, and homemaking. A perfect case study of a born rebel turned devoted daughter, she learns more each year about the practical side of helping a father become a great man.
http://www. visionforumministries(DOT)org/events/fdr/009/speakers.aspx

NO one should ever be that enmeshed and dependent and sickeningly worshipping another person. And this is what they believe is God's will for all young women.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

As an interesting side note question, do you think its this type of patriocentric thinking that causes many generation-upon-generation families of preachers?

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

What I don't understand is how on earth this dynamic is supposed to work unless the father is self-employed. My father was a SOLDIER. My daughters' father is a FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Neither man wanted(s) his daughters anywhere near what they do/did for a living. :no

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Yeah good point. Honestly, when it comes to ministry it is tempting to push our kids to be involved in the same thing. Kind of as a way to leave a lasting legacy in the kingdom of God. :shrug3 But God sometimes has other plans for our children and fathers should not assume that God has the exact same ministry/calling/vocation for his children that He had for his life.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

:crazy2

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Not necessarily. I think it is pretty common for children of parents who love or are otherwise enthusiastic about what they do to follow in their parents' footsteps :shrug3. Just as there are preacher families, there are military families, and science families, and medical families, etc. I mean, we often develop interests from being exposed to the interests of those we are close to - makes sense for our choice of job to be affected by what we see, too.

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

I think their ideal *is* that all fathers are self-employed :sigh.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

I have two sets of nieces. The father of one set (my brother) does something too highly classified to discuss at the submarine yards on Puget Sound. The father of the other set (my BIL) recently retired from 30 years in the Coast Guard. What were their daughters supposed to do in order to help them become great? They couldn't even visit their fathers' offices without a pass, much less touch any piece of paper in said offices. Were they supposed to, I don't know, press their uniforms? There are professionals who are much better at that.

And I suspect that "great man" is code for "I want to see uplifted adoring eyes whenever I look around, but the outside world doesn't seem to take me seriously enough. Look, babies! I can indoctrinate them to adore me from birth!"

Also, what are these poor women supposed to do when their fathers die? Shrivel up and blow away?

ETA: At its core, this is an elaborate lifestyle fantasy about self-sufficient manly men leading a little colony of adoring followers to God in an unmistakably manly way. That's why it's unsustainable outside a tiny minority. If all of the men run their own small businesses (with a lot of unpaid help from their women) and all of the women stay at home, nobody is fixing the roads, operating the hospitals, running the factories, etc., etc., and the country falls apart. But in this fantasy world, sewing machines never need parts that can't be made in the garage and bridges fix themselves.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Well, theoretically they should be married by then, but if not, I would imagine the torch of patriarchy would be passed down to one of their brothers and they would then have to help HIM with HIS vision :sick

Women, according this mindset, don't have visions... they're supposed to sit at home, keep house, take care of the children, and look pretty while helping the menfolk with their amazing ideas and astounding visions! :mad

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

The Botkin situation makes me kind of sad. I actually watched their movie before I found gcm and learned about mutual submission and what being a woman of God actually means. Anywho, those two girls are beautiful, intelligent, talented, etc., and their dad really just creeps me out.

I don't have a problem with daughters staying home if that's what they want. God forbid my child should ever live in a dorm! But I also want them to have their own life, away from me. To me that is healthy.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Yup, the torch DOES get passed on to a brother. And then, if the girl ever did get married, I assume he would give her away at the wedding instead of the Father - or sorry, I didn't mean wedding, I meant "transfer of authority."

And whoever said that home business were the ideal were right - that is the Biblical way to do thing, doncha know? :)

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

I've read the Botkin sisters' blog - they are amazingly talented, and paint such a compelling picture of the patriocentric life - I can see the appeal. The ideal seems to be that, as men are intrinsically stronger than women, a woman under male authority can still be as strong as she is capable of being - which is pretty darn strong, looking at the Botkin sisters and some of their email correspondents - without having to worry about overshadowing her male authority. They paint a picture of using one's gifts to their fullest - no doormats or wilting violets there! - but in service to those closest to them, instead of a random boss. With a male leader who is confident in his leadership and so has no need to bring others down in a petty attempt to boost himself up - but instead raises up those around him. While I can't get over the theoretical framework, the vision of the practical outworking presented *does* sound wonderful :shrug.

Shame it doesn't work out like that in practice :sigh. But inevitable, given human nature - power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely :shrug.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

:thinksubbing

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

According to VF then, we're toast. :shifty Not only is my DH employed outside the home, but he's a public school teacher, and at least one of his boys has voiced a desire to follow in his footsteps. :giggle

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

O/T, see bolded. Some of the best years of my life were lived in a dorm. They were also at a point where my faith was probably at its strongest. Dorms do not have to be evil incarnate. :shrug3

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

You all fail in far bigger ways than Brandons job. I believe you wear pants.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

One of the things that I find really "off" about the Botkins is, where in the Bible is it written: "Let the teenaged/twenty-something daughters tell the rest of the women on earth how to live our lives"??:no
And yet they do!!

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

They are major leaders in the patriarchal movement.

Read the page on their website on "Beautiful Girlhood" and you will see many statements along the line of, and In the doctrinal statement on their website (visionforum.org) titled "The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy," they make it pretty clear that they elevate things like homeschooling and not allowing your children to go to age-segregated Sunday School to the level of spiritual absolutes (i.e. going beyond a recommendation to the level of calling/implying it is a sin not to do as they suggest).

VF is also dominionist/reconstructionist, if that bothers you:

They are Quiver-full (believing it's a sin to try to limit or control the number of children God gives).

www. visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2004/02/662/


Here's a blog talking a bit about Vision Forum:

http://www.yehaveheard.com/tag/vision-forum/

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

I didn't know 'Beautiful Girlhood' was from Vision Forum!! I've read that book growing up and I thought it was wonderful and still do! I think in most things there is some truth to everything. This book may just be the 'kernel' of good within the whole sphere of VF thinking. :shrug3 I havent read too many other things from them. I might explore it in greater detail for myself before jumping to any conclusions (good or bad). I can tell from all the posts that there are definitely aspects to VF that I also disagree with, but maybe there is some good too.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

t

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I never got that impression when I read it growing up. The book merely encouraged the desires I already had - to be a modest, godly housewife and mother. I guess I dismissed the negative aspects of the book subconciously. Now that I am a wife/mother, I should pull the book out again (if I can find it up in the attic or among the storage boxes). Maybe I'll see it differently, maybe not.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

n

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Please be AWARE!!! The very fact that there is some good and some beauty intermingled with this poisonous teaching is the problem. It is attractive. Some of it is appealing.
In my opinion it is not worth sifting through the refuse to find a few nuggets of truth, when the truth is to be had from much purer sources.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

The same exact same thing can be said of any the materials written by Ezzo.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Just be aware that they do not leave any room for picking and choosing or disagreeing with parts of what they believe. They are very much "our way or the highway" in attitude, similar to the Ezzos.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

As well as Pearl.

:yes2

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

We were really into VF for a year or so right after we got married. Luckily DH was away at Basic Training so he wasn't around to get as submerged as I was. Along with what everyone else has said, I think it also puts a lot of pressure on the husband - DH is very laid back and I felt like he wasn't as good of a husband since he wasn't demanding and "vision" oriented. Thank goodness he didn't try to fit the mold! :phew

They also don't believe in health insurance, college in the traditional sense, any form of government assistance, personal debt, or dating (courtship in an extreme, focusing a lot on the Father/potential spouse relationship and whether the Father thinks its a good fit). And owning your own business or a family farm is the holy grail. We went to this "Family Economics" conference last year that they sponsored - very funny since there is a high population of military families around here, suggesting that it might be beneficial for the father to quit his job and start up his own business is just ridiculous!:giggle

It's kind of ironic how much they encourage getting married at a young age and having tons of kids as an ideal when when what they say is practiced it tends to lead to the opposite (never getting married).

As far as parenting: Tripp is what is in their catalogue, but you'll find many strong Pearl/Ezzo followers amongst them since one lends itself to the other.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

My mom bought me Beautiful Girlhood when I was a young teen and I honestly hated it. It glorified victorian-era lifestyle as "God's Will." It's a nice, pretty idea of "girlhood" with a few good things. Unfortunately, as I remember it, those "good things" are tied too closely to justification and sanctification, so if you are someone who does not easily identify with their version of womanhood, then you can easily experience frustration and depression. I know I did.

It uses phrases like "a truly beautiful girl is one who..." I have a HUGE problem with anyone trying to tell a girl she is "truly beautiful WHEN and IF she does ... fill in the blank with your spiritually mandated idea of whatever a girl should be."

That, in my mind, qualifies as emotionally abusive and when you tie God into it you get a spiritually abusive environment. God does NOT say that we are truly beautiful only when we fulfill x commands, and most of the things they talk about are NOT commands. Some of them are borderline heretical and nearly all of them are b or c issues.

They say on the website: "Young ladies who experience a beautiful girlhood guard their hearts against anything that would rob them of purity and are content to wait upon the Lord and trust the leadership of Mom and Dad."

There is no acknowledgment that any purity we have comes from God and HE can't lose purity and neither can we. We can't be robbed of our purity. And trusting the leadership of mom and dad sounds all nice, but really it ends up being a doctrine that is detrimental to girls developing their own self-control - a fruit of the Spirit.

My daughter and I will definiteiy be going through this book together - as a an exercise in discernment, as an exercise in how improper exegesis and the glorification of dominionism and "biblical" culture causes people to qualify who gets to be "truly" beautiful.

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

I did a critique of Eric and Leslie Ludy on my website - and there are a lot of similarities. Their "Set Apart Femininity" is basically the watered down version of beautiful girlhood and their very basic ideas on justification/sanctification and law and gospel is absolutely flawed - dangerously so.

And VF is much, much more extreme in their views.

http://threeinonemakesfive.blogspot....ue-take-2.html

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

I had a huge response all typed up and it logged me out because it took me quite a while to write the response. Guess next time I should copy it if I need to log back in and paste! Grrr, frustrating!

Anyways, in retrospect I still can't see anything wrong with Beautiful Girlhood. Even 1 Peter shows was true beauty is (gentle and quiet spirit). Being who we are always guarantees that God loves us, but it does not guarantee His blessings. Faith without works IS dead. "You are my disciples IF you love one another". In Deuteronomy 28 and 29 we see that there are blessings and curses depending on whether Gods people obeyed or disobeyed. Lets not overemphasize 'God loves me the way I am' while neglecting that there are qualifications to blessings (obedience).

After clearing that up, the divide lies in does Beautiful Girlhood advocate God's standard or is it anothers? From what I could tell, BG was a great reminder of Gods beautiful gift of femininity and prepares a girl for the awesome role as wife/mother. Now that I am a wife/mother I'd like to look back and see if the book is as good as I remember. Maybe Ive changed since then or wasnt old enough to understand some hidden messages.

P.S. I am pretty traditional in my family views, that's just me!

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

Now concerning: "They also don't believe in health insurance, college in the traditional sense, any form of government assistance, personal debt, or dating (courtship in an extreme, focusing a lot on the Father/potential spouse relationship and whether the Father thinks its a good fit). And owning your own business or a family farm is the holy grail." That IS extreme! We use health insurance, and I did go to college (I'm a SAHM, but it's nice to have something to fall back on if necessary). Government assistance is necessary at time. I do think personal debt should be avoided at all costs if at all possible. I don't believe in dating (Dh and I didnt date each other). Owning a business is nice, but not mandatory or lesser!

I too, like most of you, have a problem with any ministry elevating extrablical ideals to the standard of the Scriptures.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

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I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. I know my ideas arent mainstream on the forum (was rather surprised at that). My goal isnt to 'convert' ya'll. Just letting you know who I am and that a lot of what I say comes here from my worldview. I will say this, I don't think of myself as dumb or lesser in importance. My husband doesn't see me as such either. I do have pleasures and purposes outside of the home. However, my belief is that a woman's PRIMARY calling/gifting is towards her family - being a support to her husband and nurturing children. 'The end'.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

.

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In some ways, yes, it is just 'you' - it fits your ideals and your personality and is a good fit FOR YOU and many others. What can't be done is retro-fit what works for 'you', or any of the others that believe the way that VF does, and say it is 'God's beautiful gift' for every woman. There is a difference between a personal style and God's design. My life is a different calling - my husband is in law enforcement. Yes I cook, sew, knit, .... but my husband requires a strong wife, not a woman who can't handle 'whatever' comes.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

I think most of us here do rejoice in our roles as wives and mothers, and treasure them.

What I need to point out, though, is that SOME people have been traumatized by ministries that have over-exalted and over-idealized and over-idolized this role to an unbiblical level, and others of us are very sympathetic of how that has played out in an almost abusive way in their lives.

:hugheart