Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

completely useless, but they just make me :shiver do the Duggars have any association? :think

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

My advice is to stay far, far, FAR away from anything and anyone associated with the Vision Forum. So much good insight has been shared in this thread that I really can't add anything else to it. IDK if the Duggars have a direct line to VF but I remember in the special that TLC aired when they paid to finish, decorate and furnish the Duggar house the girls were tucked into bed in sleep caps reading one of those VF books about historical girls. It could have been nothing more than more product placement though.:shrug3

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Michelle Duggar was honored at their Baby conference as Mother of the Year. If you watch the video done in her honor it's obvious they picked her because of her large number of children and the way she has witnessed to the world through her numerous childbearing endeavors.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Is VF connected to those father-daughter chastity balls? :sick

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Yes, they promote them, iirc.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

It took me a few times reading that to realize that you were talking about a ball, as in an EVENT, not something you hold and juggle in your hands. :O

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

:O Oh, my. :giggle

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

The Duggars use Gothard and ATI which is linked in my mind with VF. If they are not formally linked, they are sure similar enough that when one is tagged in one of my posts, the other is usually tagged as well.

btw, I just posted about Legalism today. :O

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Here's an interesting article on the relationship between patriarchal views of women and slavery http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/patrislav.htm

This article has some relevant quotes from VF people: http://www.alternet.org/reproductive...s/?page=entire

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

My dh knows only the tip of the iceburg about VF's views on father-daughter relationships and he is made completely :sick by the little bit he knows.

Voddie Baucham, in particular, has said some truly heinous things about fathers and daughters.





And I'm not sharing this to bear tales about these folks, but to warn people that this is the sort of thing VF condones. This is the sort of teaching that they consider to be just fine and appropriate and Biblical. There are so many things wrong with the above statement that I cannot even begin to touch on it. Where would I even begin? My dh was horrified. Horrified :sick

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

VF can look all nice from the outside especially if you already are in agreement with WOS/QF/patriarchy but it is in everyone's best interest to really check out whom you're involving yourself and your family with before you do. Gothard, Pearl, Ezzo, Doug Phillips, Botkin, Voddie etc...if you really spend some time reading, looking and wading through the snark available out there you're going to find a lot of disturbing things. There is a deeply hidden core of rottenness there.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

There was a big two page spread on Michelle in their last catelogue (why I get it, I'll never know) pushing her book and labeling her as 'America's most beloved mother'. Formal or not, there is a connection.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

More quotes, from a paper on the Purity Balls: http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalarchive.gsu.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewco ntent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1029%26context%3Drs_theses&r ct=j&q=always%20daddy%27s%20girl%20sarah%20faith%2 0schlissel&ei=wzhcTZiFD5KesQPmlPmOAg&usg=AFQjCNFn2 SXhytIRYGo_AGztXHjrc0z8Bw&sig2=pXPg3Cp-VE1zwRmzXYPaQw&cad=rja

(emphasis mine)

The idea of giving your heart to your father and letting him be responsible for your spiritual walk and relationship with God, as well as everything else down to the level of thoughts, opinions and emotions isn't limited to females, though.

Robin Phillips has a rather lengthy article called "God in the Back Seat" which is actually an excerpt from his book critiquing the courtship/betrothal movement, giving several examples illustrating this: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/largerhop...the%20back.htm

[Edited to take out the too-lengthy quotes--but I would highly encourage everyone to read the entire article.]


Robin puts it well when he says, In one of Lindvall's newsletters, he tells of a situation in which a young man, at the age of 21, disagreed with some of his parents' beliefs as they began following Lindvall's teachings, and chose to move out of his parents' house before he was married. His parents disagreed with this decision, feeling that he should stay home and remain under their authority. When they wrote to Lindvall, asking his advice, Lindvall recommended cutting the "rebellious" son off completely and not allowing him to have any contact with his siblings or his mother, cut him off and give him up to the destruction of the devil--basically disown him.

When the son wrote to him, pleading that Lindvall hear the son's side of the story and reconsider this advice for his family to cut off all relationship with him, Lindvall replied,

(emphasis mine)

He also went on to explain that he felt there was no Scriptural obligation to hear the adult son's side of the story before passing judgement.

Remember, this is an adult man we're talking about, not a child. Lindvall actually teaches that this level of submission to parents must continue even after a child is grown, married and living on his own.

(And, no, I'm not just going off of Robin's portrayal . . . I've sat through several Bold Christian Parenting seminars, heard Lindvall speak a number of times, and have read much if not most of what he wrote--I was heavily influenced by his teachings when I was younger, as he was a popular speaker at homeschool conferences in my area.)


---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

In my opinion these teachings are dangerous both because they create a go-between between God and women/children in a way that I believe is contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture, elevate men and put them on pedestals to the level of what essentially becomes idolatry, and also because it has the potential to create kids who become adults that have difficulty knowing who they are, having a personal and direct relationship with God, and even forming opinions and making decisions once they are on their own.

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Way to put it very succinctly. I've experienced all of those issues in one way or another. It's hard to put into words what distortion it brings to your view of yourself and God unless you've been then and gotten out. *shudder*

Anyone else noticing the Baucham/VF/patriarchy thing becoming more common and accepted in mainstream Christian circles? I know it is becoming more common here. For example, everyone I know LOVES Nancy Leigh DeMoss and the True Woman movement, and the True Woman main page has a video of Voddie Baucham and he speaks at their conferences.

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

My husband would agree with yours. He was absolutely disgusted by the nature of the comments VB has made. Not only about daughters, but about children in general. Voddie Baucham has said regarding children being born with sinful natures (wish I could find the audio link!!) that God "made them small so they wouldn't kill us in our sleep." As if the only reason they don't kill us is their physical inability to do so. Perhaps he is just a man given to hyperbole, but I find no cause to talk about children in that way.

Personally I think God made them small and helpless so we don't kill THEM! :P

Re: Talk to me about Vision Forum
 

Seriously though! I think that's why mine are so cute :heart

And yes... I've definitely noticed these beliefs becoming more widespread and accepted in mainstream Christianity and amongst homeschooling Christians specifically.

Thatmom did two series of podcasts on this sort of thing in the homeschooling movement:

Here's the first one from 2007: http://www.thatmom.com/?page_id=2659

Here's the second one from last year: http://www.thatmom.com/?page_id=5036

They were definitely worth listening to, IMO. A lot of information and it takes a lot of time, but I listened to them while cleaning my house or folding laundry :)