a question for those who use to be punitive
Where does the idea of "breaking a child's will but not there spirit" come from? :shrug I have been pondering this a lot lately because it really bothers me that people think this way and I am wondering WHERE IN THE WORLD IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY SUCH A THING??? I mean, I know it DOESN"T, but where do other people get this idea from (I am thinking that somehow they think it *is* Biblical???) I know my thinking is that God gave us a free will and why in the world would I want to break that and have a weak willed child who can't stand on his own when he grows up. And how is it that you break their will but not their spirit? To me it's just so connected, seems they would be breaking their child's spirit too, just not wanting to admit it? :shrug Anyways, it's just been bugging me as to where this idea came from and how they think they can back it up with Scripture. Anyone know?
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Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
I personally think it comes from animal training.
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Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
:popcorn
It's definitely a good question! Scripture and the Hebraic mind connect the mind, will and emotions in the "heart". So, in a sense, breaking their will is about breaking their heart :( And this actually makes sense :think because punishments are about controlling the child's will, thoughts, and feelings :think |
Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
:popcorn
I've never understood this either. |
Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
I don't know how/when it started, but I honestly think it's just a blithe little catch-phrase that *sounds* good (to the punitive mindset) but doesn't really make any sense when you stop to think about it. It is used when teaching is clearly aimed at doing damage to a child's person in order to create the illusion of some sort of special "loophole" that justifies what's being done. Yes, we're advocating harsh treatment, but it's to break the "bad" part of her, not the "good" part. :rolleyes :sick
There isn't any part of our children we should be seeking to "break." That is contrary to the idea of raising them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Those who would say we should be trying to break their sin nature are stepping into the shoes of God. That is not our place, and we do not have the power to "break" our own sin, or anyone else's. :no2 The purpose of the rod of Proverbs was to impart wisdom--which is the theme of that book, not to break any part of a person's being. Isn't it dumb that people spend years breaking their children's WILL, while simultaneously teaching those children to excercise their "free WILL" by choosing God? The ironic thing is that parents who believe in breaking the will are usually asking their child to exert GREAT force of will by obeying instantly, delaying gratification, denying his own desires when they conflict with Mom and Dad's instructions, etc. I would say that many parents require more "will-power" from their children than they do from themselves. And the sad thing is that parents who try to break their child's "will" ARE in actuality, damaging that spirit which they say they want to preserve. :cry |
Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
It comes from God's own "example" in dealing with us. That's what we are taught, anyway. God "breaks our will to mold it to His" only when "our will is broken" can we be doing "God's will". It comes down to the sinful nature thing. That, left to our own devices (like Adam and Eve) we will *always* choose the wrong path, following our fallen natures. So, God has to "get a hold of us".
No, I see the flaws in this teaching. But. . .that is where it comes from. |
Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
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Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
Dobson. It's in a Dobson book I have.... I don't know if there is any scripture reference to it, I just know I remember reading it in a Dobson book.. :(
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Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
Yes, Chris. That's the same rationale I've always heard, too.
It hinges so much on our view of God.... that He punishes us, breaks us, manipulates us... and our view of ourselves... that we dirty, digusting, despicable, and unworthy of being loved by Him--even after we have Christ. Christ's redemptive work on our behalf has been subtly twisted into the idea that God loves Christ, and therefore--on Christ's behalf--He accepts and tolerates us, constantly trying to purge us of all the filth and sin and inadequacy and unworthiness that comprises the whole of who we are. :no2 (no, it's not said that bluntly, and pastors will talk about grace and how much God loves us, etc. but the messages that are implied in a legalistic atmosphere can actually carry more weight than the spoken words themselves.) |
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Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
So, let me get this straight :think
according to your pastor, Chris, the "Good News" of the Gospel is this: we were created to be perfect but after the Fall we were conceived in sin and born filthy and dirty and wretched and we think life is fun but it's going to mean we spend eternity in the fiery pits of hell (sort of paying for the fun we think we're having here). To *fix* this Jesus died on the cross, he loves us too much to make us suffer for eternity, and this is grace. BUT even though we won't suffer for eternity for our sins (the fun we have now--so fun is evil) we are now children of God and God spanks his children so we are supposed to get ourselves under control and change our lives and where sin is all the fun stuff, holy living is all the un-fun stuff and part of being a Christian is learning how to enjoy the un-fun stuff so if you're not having fun doing un-fun stuff, or if you "sin" by having fun doing stuff you did before you were a Christian, or if God isn't spanking you, you might not really be saved and then you won't really have grace which means that you really will go to hell. Which makes our parenting goal to raise children who have fun doing the un-fun Christian stuff so that they won't have as much of a struggle as we do to fit into God's demands on us (demands he makes as our part of the deal when he's willing to give us grace and not make us spend enternity in hell even though we really deserve it). |
Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
:popcorn
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Re: a question for those who use to be punitive
Kind of. In a way. Sort of. Mostly. But, he does say that serving God *should* be fun. . .and pleasant. If, of course, our hearts are right with Him and we have the same 'goals'. Serving God should never be unpleasant. We should have joy in what we are doing. When we get saved, we just naturally will cover our nakedness, we will not *want* to drink, smoke, etc. It's part of being saved. God changes you. Now, some people will struggle. . .. and people will sin (the result of the fall and sin nature), but are not to *want* to, and to confess and repent. . . .however many times it takes.
It's. . . .subtle. Well. . . let me give you a little story my friend from this church told me (she told me this in front of my kids on Wed., and this is practically verbatim - -she rode with us in the car as we went to pick up something). This is the meaning of sin, mercy and grace. There was a little boy who was, well, being fractious. He was warned several times. . .and he just kept being "bad". So, as according to the warning, he received his spanking (what he was told the consequences would be for his continued misbehaviour). Now, the particular punishment for what he was doing was supposed to be 9 licks. His father, of course, explained, "Son I have to do this because I love you. I cannot let you keep sinning like this and disobeying." And his father measured them out evenly. But, he only gave him 8 licks. And, then, after the "re-connection", after the restoring, his daddy took him out and bought him an ice cream cone. And, while they ate the ice cream cones, his father explained. "Son, what you were doing was sinning. I could not let you keep doing that. Now, when I gave you your licks, I only gave you 8, not 9. That is called "mercy". And this ice cream? This ice cream is "unmerited favor" -- this ice cream is "grace". This is what Jesus did for us. Do you understand?" And, the boy understood. Ok. . .just a moment. . . I need a minute. . . . :bheart :hissyfit :td :cry Ok. Now. That pretty much accurately describes the prevailing thought process of the church as far as disciplining children - - and the way we should be disciplining our children, using the example and instruction that God has given us in the Bible. This is the way God would discipline us, and have us discipline. That is what I am getting, anyway. Dh says I'm wrong in my assumptions about this teaching (yes I should be spanking, but, apparently, my "interpretation of the sermons" is off, somehow). I can't see how. . . . .I just am not seeing how I can be "off" about the un-Biblical-ness of this thought pattern. . . . .. Oh, and one thing pastor has said a lot. . .. God is showing America a lot of mercy. . . .America is sinning and doing wrong. . .and God is showing mercy by holding off the punishment we deserve. ETA - - "unmerited favor" (in the story) meaning, something you do not deserve, will never deserve, never can do anything to deserve, and something you just cannot do for yourself. |
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