Permissiveness or GBD?
 

What is the difference between permissiveness and GBD? I have read that permissiveness produces children who don't respect their parents and don't have much respect for boundaries.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Actually, that is not true at all. Permissiveness usually produces children who push for boundaries because children need boundaries to feel safe, but some children are not high needers of strict boundaries and can do fine in a permissive environment. Typically, though, when you have more than one, or a less easy going child, permissiveness isn't going to help you at all. Permissiveness is the opposite end of the spectrum from Punitive and, just like a child who is easy going and a people pleaser may need only a few spankings before they change behavior, thus making some people think spankings work, Permissiveness can *work* as well.

GBD is Grace-Based Discipline and it speaks to an entirely different paradigm from the one that says you're either punitive or permissive. It rejects the extremes of both while providing a middle ground that is both kind and firm.

You can read more about it at my website http://www.aolff.org and in the GD forum here.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I came to GCM and started learning GBD to stop being so permissive. :O

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I think that the key difference between permissiveness and GBD is the D - discipline. Permissive parenting leaves the child on his own and his insecurity over having no one to help and protect him/her makes them act out, usually out of fear and insecurity. Assuming we agree that discipline means teaching, we as parents have a variety of ways to teach our children what they need to know. Punitive discipline teaches them to not do or to do certain things because they have learned to fear punishment and pain. GBD teaches children to do or not to do certain things because we have taught they the reasons why as their maturity allows, have helped them find ways to comply and modeled appropriate behavior and grace to them.

Permissive parenting says 'don't hit, I mean it don't hit, please, please stop hitting....' (they don't stop hitting)
Punitive parenting says 'dont' hit or I will hit you" (they stop hitting to avoid pain)
GBD parenting says 'don't hit because it is unkind and God has taught us to be kind to one another. If you can't control your hitting, I will remove you so that you are not tempted to hit and help you calm down.' (they stop hitting because they either understand or because the parent has stepped in to prevent the hitting)


Crystal, what do you think? Is that an accurate symmary?

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

:tu

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

:highfive Yeah! I like that. There is still authority and effectiveness but its positive reinforcement :-)

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Thankfully I was never even remotely that permissive. :cry

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

It helps me to understanding punitive/permissive in terms of feelings --

-Punitive parenting makes a child feel bad in order to learn

-Permissive parenting does anything, even withholding discipline, to avoid a child's bad feelings, asking the child for "permission" to parent them

-GBD teaches the child, at an age-appropriate level, to meet the standard. Feelings can be respected and reflected, but are not used as a tool for manipulation or fear (by either the parent or the child).

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Robin, thank you for that simplified answer, i'll try to remember that when people ask me about my parenting.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Permissive is the mama with a five year old about to jump off the second-story eave of the house saying, "Now Joey, think about the consequenses of your actions. Is jumping off the roof a good choice?" (true life example from my neighbor all through high school and the reason why it took me so long to even consider non-punitive discipline - I thought all "positive discipline" looked like that bozo and her hellion son who, now btw, is sadly in jail.)

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Me too! I know three grown "children" from the same family who were raised permissively and it does not look well for them.......... :jawdrop

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

It's really the wrong question. :yes GBD is *grace* *based* *discipline*. One of the tenents of it is a lack of phsyical and arbitrary punishment, but that's not what defines it.

If it's permissive, it's not discipline. The problem is that people hear (or observe) a lack of traditional punishment and they filter all normal child behavior through their own issues. A gbd'ed child who pushes is seen as "out of control" while one who is spanked is seen as normal and in need of a spanking.

GBD is firm, non punitive and relationship based.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Wow, I never even realized there was such a difference. Nor have I heard permissivness summed up so well. I am coming from punitive paenting and fear that I will swing to far to the other side. This has helped me see a little more clearly about what GBD really is. Thank you... :)

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Me too.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

May be a stupid question, but coming from someone that hasn't heard of GBD and is new to this forum...can you be both punitive and permissive as a parent? I ask this b/c, well, I've struggled with being permissive with our children, and also with punitive punishment....

This may or may not belong in this forum...but my issue at the moment is with our 13 y/o dd. She has always had her own room, only had to share with a little sister for a very short period of time when they were much younger. We live in a small home, there are 7 of us, one bathroom, and three small bedrooms. This is sad and I hate to admit it but....ds sleeps in the living room, he is four, has no space of his own. DD, 19 mos, sleeps in the room with me and dh (cosleeping). The thing is, it's getting to the point that the younger ones need their own space and a place that they can go and play and/or rest. DD wants to share with the 4 y/o boy and let us keep baby in the room with us, so that she doesn't have to share with two younger sisters. (8 & 10 who share a room together already) Because, heaven forbid, her privacy be violated by the other two, they do not get along, which is one of my reasons for making them share in the first place. They need to learn how to get along and love one another and plus, well, this is terrible, but I want to prove to dd that life isn't always going to happen the way she wants it to and she just has to deal with it. She keeps making deals, or trying to, to make me see that she will do whatever it takes to keep from sharing with her two younger sisters. Part of me says let her keep her room because I remember how I wanted to be alone a lot at her age. The other part of me says, she just needs to suck it up, put on her big girl panties and deal with it b/c as of right now, she is the only person in our home that is happy with the living arrangements.

Tell me, what would you do? I'm new to having a teenager and it's driving me insane! It's making me feel like a failure b/c this territory is completely new to me and I'm lost!!! I'm glad I found this board b/c GBD has really caught my interest and I'd like to read as much as I can, unfortunately, I haven't much time for reading these days. I've been trying to post here since I joined a few weeks ago. Sorry for rambling, but I hope someone has some advice for me! Thanks!

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I am definitely not one to have advice for you as I am working through a lot of this stuff too, but I know you will get some very good advice from the other members here. I think/hope it is ok to direct you here, though for some helpful reading and resources as you are able. http://www.aolff.org/default.html

:hug

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I would suggest you sit down over coffee with DD and talk to her about it all. First validate how you believe she is feeling (ie privacy, not wanting to shair with sisters, remembering how you felt at that age, etc) let her talk about how she is feeling about things, then say you are here to try and work out something that will work for both of you because you are a family team. I would let her know some of the issues that you are dealing with as far as family living space and how helpful it would be if she were able to help you figure out some idea to help. She maybe willing to open up her "space" if it's her idea or she comes around to it of her own accord. My parents taking me out one on one would have spoken volumes to me of my "valued individualness" at that age. Also she still desires to be involved in making decisions and so helping her think of ones that she can make, help her feel as though she has a say in what happens in her life...kwim? Not an expert here but just some ideas :popcorn

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

that would be a tough one for me. I was an oldest child, and I hated everything about having siblings. It still makes my stomach hurt to think about it, honestly, and that is why I am so vociferously opposed to large families. Just a prejudice on my part. I needed privacy and quiet SO BAD! Anyway, I had to share rooms because there were 10 kids and two parents in 4 bedrooms...you do the math. I sucked it up, it was never presented as an option, I'd shared a room since I was little. But my parents did respect my need for private time, the littler kids only slept in the room, not played so I could spend all day reading in there by myself. Also, I spent a lot of time outside....we lived on a big farm, so I could roam at will. And I moved out as soon as I was 18 into my own apartments and at times have worked three jobs to avoid having a roommate.
I hope I don't have to make that decision because sometimes difficulties we have as parents are related to difficulties we had as children. Didn't mean to make that more confusing, sorry!

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Honestly, I know someone that had an older brother in with a younger sister in a room, because their temperamants were better suited to sharing - they got along better. What's the problem with the 13yo sharing with her brothers instead of with her sisters, if it helps keep the peace. Forcing them to share a room won't help them get along better, discipline and love might. That is, IF your sons don't mind the arrangement.

I don't know the layout of the house, but I have also seen people give their teens an unfinished room, a basement or an attic. My friend Ruth gave her teen a space in the basement, put up "temporary" walls, painted the concrete floor and walls bright colors, a nice rug, etc. I think her teen cherished having her own space in her teenage years more than having drywall and covered beams.

I guess what I'm saying is, it takes creativity to meet everyone's needs (and sometimes their desires, if practical) when it's a large family, especially. I know in our house we've had no fewer than 7 sleeping arrangements in the past 7 years - whatever gets everyone the most sleep at the time. I can only imagine how that number of sleeping arrangements would grow exponentially with several more children!

As for can you be permissive and punitive at the same time, yep, I've seen it and here's what it looks like:
Mom (from couch): Don't. Don't do that, please. Honey, stop. Quit it. Please stop! . . .(repeat ad nauseum anywhere from 10 minutes to several weeks). . .Stop. STOP! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (finally gets off the couch, grabs kid roughly by the arm, smacks).

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Amy, for practical purposes, could you also show what GBD looks like in the same situation?

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Um, well, it depends on what you want the kid to stop doing! LOL! Crystal or Joanne or any number of people would probably be better able to answer, but here's my stab at it. . .how about the kid is jumping on furniture, for example :)

Mom (moving out of her seat and toward child): Oops, that's dangerous! (taking child's hand and leading to playroom) we jump in here on the (cushion, old mattress, mini-tramp, whatever).

or. . .

Mom (from couch): you need to sit on furniture.
(if behavior continues): Do you my help to sit on the furniture?
(moving from the couch toward helping child with gentle hands): Furniture is for sitting. I'm helping you sit. (And then I'd probably start a game or something to redirect them to an acceptable activity, tickle, put on some music, get out some blocks, whatever)

or. . .I think there are about a million ways to be gentle with your child, understand where he is developmentally, and give grace for his behavior while still firmly enforcing limits.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I'm new to this forum but have a couple questions. I have a 5yo and an almost 3yo (like in a week). I tend to be a pushover as a mom, I give in because I don't feel like having a battle. I also have fallen into the bad habit of yelling, which I am working on and getting MUCH better about. My problem is what do you do if you ask them to stop doing something and they don't obey. Do you keep giving 'warnings'? What if you give them another warning and then follow through if they're still not obeying and they spend their time screaming? For instance, my 5yo is horrible with this and it's probably my own fault for being such a pushover mom for so long. I end up removing him from the situation and he just screams and hollers. I usually have to pick him up to remove him and he is the size of your average 7yo. Then I get frustrated, and I start to get upset and the cycle goes on and on. HELP ME?!

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Probably good, if you're new to the forum, to read the stickies here. That should help *a lot.*

I don't give warnings. I tell them what to do (instead of telling them to stop doing something) - if they don't do what I asked I go to them and help them do the right thing/find an activity. I don't care if they're angry and scream - that's their right to have those feelings.

I also think long and hard - is it worth getting off my butt? If it's health or safety, yes. If it's just annoying behavior, well, sometimes I'll just choose to be annoyed LOL! I pick my battles carefully.

Things may get worse before they get better, but if you're consistent about making your words have actual meaning (by getting up every single time and enforceing your words) he will learn your no means no, your yes means yes, and he will eventually leave off testing your boundaries quite so much.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Amy, I am sorry to keep up the questions, :O but your answers have been very helpful to me also as I have fallen into a rut as well. Thank you for the example above. It was very helpful.

In this quote:

What should I do when my ds throws a fit and I just got the baby down so I can finally put away the laundry, clean, or have a couple of minutes to rest myself? However, ds's fit may wake her up? I understand that he has a right to his feelings, but if it is infringing on dd's much needed naps then what do I do?

Also here is a question:

I am staying at my parent's home right now. Dinnertime: My dad just got home from a long day. He is in the mood for a nice relaxed dinner with his family. Ds is in a mood and throws a fit. I remove him from the situation and bring him downstairs. He doesn't want to be downstairs alone, but I left dd upstairs. She starts to fuss, I am hungry, my parents are trying to have a peaceful evening - what do I do?

Or another senario, ds is fine, but my mom cooked chicken. Ds doesn't eat meat, salad, etc. typically, just peanut butter, mac and cheese, etc. My mom thought that we should try filling his plate with all that we were eating both for health reasons and to get him to eat what had been cooked so that when I was on my own, I wouldn't have to cook two meals. After trying this one night and ds saying he wasn't hungry, pushing away his plate and going to play, my dad asked my mom and I what the difference was if he liked chicken now or 10 years from now, we did not have an answer. So I made him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, some carrots and a smoothie. Should I try to expand the list of foods he will eat or not and if so, how do I do it? I would love him to love greens. Some of my friend's children eat all kinds of salads. I think that would be so wonderful.

I guess if I was on my own in my own place that I would only cook what dd and ds would eat since they would be the majority. lol

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

It's really fine. But really, reading the stickies and also Joanne's site and Crystal's site will really, really help you get this.

Well, I can't tell you what you should do. I'll tell you what I do, and that's remove my child from the room and go somewhere with him where I can be behind a closed door, so that he can tantrum without bothering other sleeping family members too much. I know that's not a perfect solution. Also keep in mind, if you let tantrums control you because you'll do anything to keep from waking the baby, he'll know that and continue to do it. They know surprisingly quickly what your buttons are.

Wow, that's really, really hard. One year ago we lived for a month with my in-laws, it was the most stressful time of my life! I felt like I was parenting under a microscope, or in a fishbowl!

1. I do everything I can so that my inlaws can get their peace, but with the knowledge that sometime's that's not going to happen, because they're living with a toddler!

2. I'd make a "tantruming place" away from the rest of the house and that's where you tantrum. It's hard when both kids need you at once, I've many a time held one calm kid while staying in the room with a tantruming one, if the calm one wanted me.

3. You are the parent, so you get to decide what you do with regard to food. It's an individual decision. My personal choice is to make one dinner, and if they don't like it they can have a peanut butter sandwich or a bowl of cereal - nothing that has to be cooked/prepared, though. But it's your choice, whatever you're comfortable with. I get that your parents are trying to help you, but I guess my response would be to take it under advisement, think about it, and then decide what I'm comfortable with.

But it's so stressful! Definitely read the stickies, and definitely explore your own feelings about big feelings coming from your kids. I hope you're in a place to have your own space soon, stress levels will definitely go down.

I guess if I was on my own in my own place that I would only cook what dd and ds would eat since they would be the majority. lol

[/quote]

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I think you need to consider changing your approach. You have made these issues a battle, rather than about life and compromise. "I want to prove.." "they need to learn.." I have a brother-in-law that I don't like and don't respect. No problem, I don't have to spend much time with him so I can be polite and patient with him when we need to interact. Now if I was force to be with him a lot, I would be bitter and angry and frustrated all the time - not condusive to 'getting to know and love each other'.

I would sit down with my dh, look at all the options, consider all the personalities and then do what you feel is best. If you feel it is most practical for the 8 and 10 yos to share a room, then so be it. It seems you are creating more stress for yourself than you are solving by making this decision about more than living space. I think if dd13 is willing to share with her 4yo brother and it works for you, that it is a great option.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I am in the process and yes, it is helping. :) I just got out of the habit and needed some immediate solutions.

They do find that out quickly don't they. :giggle

Oh, I don't have a lot of stress here. The stress came before I moved here. :( But anyway, my folks are great help to me. I am just like my mom in that we read a bunch and forget to mull it over for a time before applying it. My dad on the other hand was trying to GBD my son I think when he suggested that it was ok for him not to like this food at this time in his life. ;) On the one hand I would love to have my own place and have sweet daydreams about it. But on the other hand, I feel very safe right now living with my family and I have a lot of help that I would otherwise not have as a single parent. :heart

I guess there was stress here, but we have all communicated since and have begun to work through issues as they come up rather than waiting until we were stressed. :) It helps a lot to do that.

Thank you for your help with this. I am feeling a lot better about things and have been very productive today and have seen the side of my 3.5 year old that I know and love. We are on our way to run some errands and play for the rest of the day. :) Thanks again!

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Ok, what do you mean 'read the stickies'???? What stickies, where are the stickies???? I've read thmost of this conversation but am very confused.

Next question, what do you do about disrespectful words or tone of voice? I've seen lots of examples on behavior issues but haven't found one on verbal issues and this is where I really need help.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Go to the list of threads at the opening of this (or any) forum. There are threads that cover some basic information on whatever topic the forum is about. They always 'stick' to the top of the forum, so we call them 'stickies'. Don't feel bad, it took me quite a while to figure that on out as well.

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...hp?topic=250.0 This is about the 'five steps' that many people find very useful.

It sometimes depends on the age. My girls are older and while I don't get that much, when I do I give a 'I think you might want to try that again without the attitude'. I've heard variations on this, such as 'that was not respectful, please try again.' If it were a problem I would have a discussion about mutual respect - 'I don't speak to you that way and I expect you to not speak to me that way'. I think this is one area where consistancy is really important.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

My DD is 22 months old. Yesterday, a friend of mine with her own under two year old, witnessed a couple of Bethany meltdowns (she was trying to dress a dolly on her own and very frustrated when she couldn't get the shoe on). I responded to Bethany in my usual way, held her tight, talked her through her frustration (also told her that we don't throw our toys) and showed her how to do what she was trying to do and then let her try it herself. My friend responded by telling her toddler never to behave like Bethany (in front of me and Bethany) and remarking that Bethany had a really hot temper and that her toddler would never behave like that. I responded by explaining (I am positive my slight irritation at my friend's response didn't show through, although I have to admit I did feel it) that different parents have different parenting goals, and none were necessarily better or worse than others, just different. So her goal is obedience, good behaviour and self control, and she is succeeding very well in those areas. Mine for Bethany are somewhat different - I want her to retain a spirited approach with freedom to express her frustrations, creativity and own initiative, but of course I also want her to develop internal controls. But my readings on brain development confirm that the centers in our brain for higher order thinking, such as true empathy (i.e. behave well so as not to hurt others as opposed to behave well because you'll get punished if you don't) start to mature in 2-3 years time from now, so in the meantime I will continue to redirect and explain, but may only reap the rewards of "better behaviour" when she is closer to 4 and able to understand true empathy. It is a longer term goal, and one in which I will have to persevere in the face of apparent lack of progress sometimes . In the meantime, I refuse to compromise her zest for life and zeal for experimentation by introducing any form of punitive discipline, which is of course what my friend advocates. I guess she thinks I'm being permissive, but in truth I'm trying to consistently practice GBD (she's not a Christian, so I can't really explain to her what that means).

I realize also that all our kiddos have different temperaments as well, which certainly accounts for why some are easier to handle and others more challenging. I wouldn't trade Bethany for the world, even though, or perhaps because, she throws lots of challenges my way all the time! I guess I'm just wondering when she'll start to "measure up" to the good behaviour standards expected by society in general and people like my friend in particular, and hoping for some positive affirmation from like-minded moms who've been down this path before me. :yes

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Minni! What a beautiful way to respond to your friend without putting her on the defensive! I love the way you attributed it to a different goal, rather than trying to argue your point!

And everything you said is true. I can attest that my boys are now where you are predicting your daughter will be, and they are very secure, loving, empathetic, and have internal controls. And of course, they still make mistakes, and they still need discipline.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Amy, thanks for the encouragement! It does help to hear from other moms who've BTDT :)

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Minni, I am so inspired by your story. It gives me such hope. And, Amy, your affirmation of what she is doing is so helpful to me too. I must admit that time and again I have wondered and resorted to impatient ways of trying to get my 3 1/2 year old to 'behave' and nothing works as well as TLC and GBD. I always know that, but sometimes when you are need to be somewhere and they melt down or you are in a restaurant they melt down, it is a kind of 'what do I do feeling.' Totally helpless. So I bribe or say 'shall we go home?' And that is probably exactly what we should do - not as punishment, but because that is probably where the children would like to be more. But, Minni, your story has made me not feel helpless. It has made me feel empowered by what I believe I should do and that I don't need to worry about what others think. Thank you for your help. :heart

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

What is a good book to read about the how-to's of Grace Based Discipline? This sounds wonderful. I am having such a hard time with my 10 year old daughter being disrespectful, arguing, and not obeying with a good attitude. Things like getting her to go to bed and go to sleep at a decent hour. Getting up with a cheerful attitude. Doing her homeschool work diligently. Practicing her music. I need direction, as this is trying my patience horribly. I have only recently discovered Gentle Christian Mothering, and now I feel I have much to do to get this to be a part of our family. I want so much to make this work. I am so tired of conflict with my child. All advice will be seriously taken. The more practical, the better. I really want things to change for the better soon.

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Welcome Mountain Rose! There is a sticky in this forum with a booklist, but I have found the combined wisdom of all GCM to be more helpful than any single book. I have some ideas, but wondered if you might want to start a new thread for 10-year old DD issues first? You might get more responses that way.

Grace-based discipline is hard work, but I also believe that it's a natural way to relate to our children. The transition can be challenging but if you're like me it's also liberating -- I hope you stick around!

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Minni--that was absolutely beautiful! And if you friend isn't a Christian you can direct her to Becky Bailey or Jane Nelson :)

GBD is specifically a Grace Based approach to Discipline that I developed based on the Hebraic view of parenting and on the model of God parenting us :heart It applies the tenets of the Christian faith to children (do unto others, fruit of the spirit, etc). Meaning, we are called to treat them that way, not be horrible while we demand it from them :(

My book Biblical Parenting is the book that explains GBD. At this time I'm having a hard time getting it from my publisher (long story, no reason to go into it), but I'm almost done with my second book Grace Based Living and it goes into everything that Biblical Parenting does AND a lot more! I'm self publishing it and it should be ready to fill orders in a couple of weeks :)

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Very well put! I have so much to learn!

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using Tapatalk 2

Re: Permissiveness or GBD?
 

I definitely think that is the balance :yes

One of the most important parts of GBD is being proactive. That's how grace works.

"For God so loved the world that He gave . . . "
"While we were yet sinners God . .. "

God saw the problem and moved to fix it before we even knew we had a problem.

When we focus on telling our children what TO do, preparing them for situations and equipping them with how to respond, scripting, emotional validation, do overs, life skills for calming down and regrouping, and how to ask for help, along with all of the other things that GBD is about teaching them, we set them up for success and *prevent* problems.

Yes, it's hard work following a 3yo around and helping them clean up their own messes, but it's much easier than following a 13yo around and dealing with their messes! If they got the skills at 3 then 13 is that much easier.