Common sense and intuition
 

"People should just use their common sense and intuition to know when to stop doing, or not use something. Chew the meat and spit out the bones."

I've heard this comment quite often from people when discussing parenting methods gone awry. Often it's used in defense of a particular book: "They didn't use their common sense to know it wasn't working for them" (most recently that one has been used ALL the time from people defending the Pearl's teaching); other times it comes judgmentally towards another parent's decisions for their children.

I know for a mother who is very good at using their own intuition it seems like an obvious answer and is genuinely confusing how someone else wouldn't see it that way. So I thought we could discuss 1) the fallacy of the idea when discussing a specific topic or book, and 2) why certain people really do struggle with it.

So for number 1: Well I think Crystal mirrored my own thoughts very well in a previous thread when she said that a book or teaching isn't judged on how people DON'T do what it tells them to do, it is judged on the merits of what it actually tells people to do. This is especially important if one of the things it tells people to do specifically is ignore their own instincts. That is one HUGE flag of caution that I note and to which I pay special attention. If a person must tell others to ignore their own gut to follow the advice being given, I have to ask why. :shrug3

For number 2. I hope other moms will come help to describe it, but I can only share my own experience. The following is a list of teachings that I had accepted as Truth when I was a young new mother:

1) Babies are born with a sinful will that is evidenced from the day of their birth.
2) At times a parent who truly loves their children will do what is hard for them to do because it is in the best interest of the child. This I applied to vaccinations, CIO, and all sorts of things I was TOLD BY PROFESSIONALS was in the best interest of my baby :bheart
3) Parenting is the hardest thing you will ever do, you cannot be prepared for what it will do to you, you will be lost and not know what to do, so listen to those around you and do what they tell you to.
4) The heart is deceitful above all things, God's will is HARD to do, but whatever you do don't listen to your own heart if it "contradicts" what you "should" do. (This is insidious, it directly undermined my own instincts in every aspect of my life). That one is directly paired with: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to destruction." This is such a wonderful verse that is very easy to pull out and throw at ANYONE who doesn't want to do what has been determined as GOD'S WILL for them :doh

On top of that, I was very directly prepared by circumstances in my life (an abusive relationship among other things) to have completely rejected my own intuition and accept what anyone else told me as truth, even if it went against what I was certain I had known. Throw in a MAJOR bout of PPD, PTSD, and anxiety into the mix and well...that's why I didn't use my own intuition when people told me to do what was wrong. Thankfully I didn't get ahold of some of the worst books at that time in my life, and I had specific people in my life encouraging me towards a more gentle way of parenting. It wasn't until I saw Dr Sears on an episode of Dr Phil (of all things :giggle) and heard him actually ENCOURAGE a mother to do what I wanted to do (instead of calling it lazy self indulgent parenting) and then even MORE told her, "wherever everyone gets the best sleep is the best sleeping arrangement for your family-do what works best for you" that it even occurred to me that I COULD do what I wanted to do.

Then I found GCM. :heart And the mommas on here encouraged me in so many ways; including affirming over and over that I could and should listen to instincts I thought were long dead and gone. :yes Now that's just my own story. I'm sure many other mommas can come and share. Overall though I have to say that while I will at times accept an intellectual exercise of digging through a teaching I disagree with to analyze and learn: when dealing with a topic I am unfamiliar with or uncertain about if I'm having to put that much effort into LEARNING-well I figure there's got to be something better out there that doesn't require all of that on my part KWIM?

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I think that when you're trying to reconnect broken parts in your brain, its perfectly ok to go"out of balance" wrt study/intuition in order to re-learn the trust/faith in the intuition. It is justlike any arrested development...you cant go around or over it, you have to experience it.

If you abandon academic pursuit in favor of re-learning/building trust and faith and you are doing it in a safe and healthy environment where when you go awry, someone you love/ trust can say "hey, whats up with that?" I think you'll find that you havent actually given up the academics at all, but chosen a season of studying a different way, prayerfully, in order to achieve a balanced surrendered life.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Interesting topic :think. To me there's two/three separate categories here:
*People whose intuition/common sense has been warped by crappy teaching/upbringing - they're using it, it's just calibrated wrong.
*People who are naturally inclined to place ideas over reality, and so ignore/plow through reality-based evidence that their beloved ideas aren't working out - i.e. ignore common sense by nature. I think Ns, particularly introverted Ns, are prone to this (no, I don't resemble that remark :shifty).
*People who've been trained to place ideas (usually a certain idea or a certain leader's ideas) over reality, and so ignore intuition/common sense despite themselves. This is probably more likely to happen in people-pleasing types and obedience to authority types.

I do think that intuition/common sense operates in most people unless they're been trained out of it (which takes time), or are one of the relatively rare types that ignores it by nature (and even they have it, they just don't want to listen to it sometimes, and can kind of train themselves out of it). The thing is that it is calibrated by life experiences, and if they weren't healthy, then your intuition/common sense is likewise not healthy, and can in fact steer you wrong. You have a false sense of what is normal.

Personally, I mostly relate to #2 - I find it easy to get carried away with being logically consistent, and if it weren't for my common sense having been trained up by a very realistic and practical mom, I'd have gotten into a *lot* of trouble. (Also, the fact that I'm naturally lazy :shifty has saved me a lot, too - I've had tons of Grand Plans that were probably ill-advised that I would have jumped into with both feet except that it was too much work :bag. Seriously, saved me from a possible bout with anorexia in high school - had everything but the willpower to carry it off :shiver.)

To me Vision Forum and their brand of patriarchy falls under this - it is the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood position taken to it's logical extreme. There is *nothing* but common sense keeping CBMW from VF. But the fact that way more people are CBMW-style complementarians than VF-style patriarchs illustrates that, for most people, most of the time, common sense functions well enough to keep people from going (entirely) off the rails.

Anyway, the ideas you said contributed to your ignoring common sense - most of them I'd agree with, at least in certain situations. #1 - I *do* believe babies are born sinful - but that doesn't mean I believe that *I* can do something about that sin (let alone that spanking is what can do something about it :doh). And #2 - that *is* true, in some situations - but it gets horribly misapplied. And people can and do honestly differ on what is necessary :shrug. #3 - Parenting *is* hard, and seeking out wisdom from others *is* a good idea :shrug. It's just that uncritically adopting that wisdom against your better judgement isn't a good idea. And #4 has some nuggets of truth, but is totally twisted around and abused and does so. much. damage. :mad:banghead:banghead

This is why doctrine *matters*. Slightly wrong foundations can lead to really, really dangerously wrong applications. There's a *reason* why the early church slugged it out over minute differences in doctrine over Christ and the atonement - that is the core of our faith, and differences there, far from not mattering b/c they are so (apparently) far from our daily life, are the most important thing to get right because everything else flows from it. We don't give a book/parenting philosophy a pass b/c common sense prevents most people from going overboard with its bad ideas. Why do we give theologies/churches a pass, excuse the excesses *that came directly from carrying their doctrine to its logical conclusion* (as opposed to those that came from ignoring or changing doctrine)?

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

This may sound snarky, but who decides what is common sense? What I think is common sense is earth shattering to some and vice versa. With new parents who did not spend a lot of time around babies, common sense has to be spelled out. Even experienced parents will be thrown for a loop by something that to some should be a plain as the nose on their faces. The idea that new, insecure, unlearned and sleep deprived parents should just know that they were taking a book to far is harsh in my opinion.
Our society does not prepare parents for parenting. Children and babies are props on tv or in movies. In the pulpit you hear how sinful babies are and that you must use the rod to save their very souls. Many Christian parenting experts insist that you must break the child's will at birth or they will end up in jail. If you are a Christian, you have heard some flavor of this most of your life. Add in your neighbor, grandmother, sister, mother or whomever agreeing with this and how are parents supposed to know? What are they supposed to know?

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

IDK, but to me, barring really bad abuse, some things are innate to just about everyone :shrug3. It is just *not natural* to hit a small baby :shrug. Heck, it's not even natural to CIO. Sleep-deprived or ignorant people might do either out of desperation, but they still know/feel that it's not right. That's why all those people advocating it have to make a big deal about ignoring your intuition and how parents have to do hard things for the greater good - *because* it's not natural.

And why even a lifetime of indoctrination isn't enough to keep people from struggling with it. How many times do you see people firmly entrenched from birth in the Christian spanking subculture feel upset and uncomfortable with the "necessity" of spanking once they actually are in the middle of it? And all the encouragements from others about how they know it's hard, but it's Biblical and necessary and God will bless their efforts :banghead.

I do have lots of sympathy for them - they've been lied to and stripped of the defenses that would have protected them, all in the name of God :mad. For me I'm more amazed that common sense *does* function for the vast majority of people most of the time, and so even with all the crap, taking bad teaching too far is still the minority :shrug.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

But see, that is just you. You just know things. I don't. I need to have things spelled out for me. That may be odd to you, but the idea of just knowing something or acting on a feeling is scary to me. I need facts. When I first heard of cio, it was at a shower for my sil about eight years ago. All the women said it was hard, but it was vital to fostering an independent child. And also, that not doing it lead to bad sleep habits. That made a lot of sense to me. Especially since the only people I knew that did not cio, were exactly the ap families Ezzo depicts in his books. Couple that with my mother discussing sleep training us and memories of my brothers being sleep trained and it made even more sense. Those words and warnings still ring in my head and I have to fight not to do it even though I do know better. Not because I just want to sleep, but because I do not want to make her neurotic. When Ivy commits acts of "rebellion", those words about her sin nature hit me and I have to fight not to hit her. Not because I am angry and want to lash out, but because I do not want to her to end up in jail. If I had not read about age appropriate behavior and things about child development, then I could not practice gentle discipline. Only because I have read strong arguments that refute spanking and rebellion am I able to not strike her. Only because I know that I have good information. How many times have we heard that nothing worth doing is easy? Parenting is certainly worth doing and it is far from easy. Hitting Ivy would not have been easy, but because Ivy is worth keeping safe, I would not have batted a lash at swatting her for running out in the road. Yes, hitting her to keep her safe is very convoluted at best. But, if that is what you heard your entire life and saw modeled your entire life, why would it feel wrong? Why would it look wrong? Everything you saw says this is right, do it. I don't think hitting a small baby is normal. But if you grew up with the Pearls and their ilk, then it just might be. I knew several families that did spank newborns as in they just came home from the hospital newborns to teach them not to cry at night. I was horrified when I heard about it, but those families thought they were nipping rebellion in the bud. I suspect, that they were programed the same way I was, but the punitive ick was taken to a new level. I have a lot of compassion for them. Because I know very well that but for the grace of God, I would have done some of the same. (I would not have hit a baby for waking up, but you get the idea). Just in case it is not clear, I want to say that I do not defend the hitting of babies or children. Nor do I defend CIO. Ever. I am against it in any form and have will not allow it in my home.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

You're probably right that I don't really get Sensing types (I'm really trying, but I haven't found the right explanation yet, I guess). But there's a difference b/w being scared to go on a feeling and not even feeling it in the first place. You kind of confirmed my theory, in that they all said it was hard but necessary. That kind of means they felt an inclination to not do it - they just then dismissed it, b/c they were trained to distrust all feelings/instincts :bheart:banghead. But they *had* them, even though they didn't want them or believe in them. I get that over time you can dull them to the point of invisibility, as well as normalize dysfunction - but that takes a long time or serious dysfunction. If *multiple* people in your circle really and truly hit *newborns*, then wow, that was a really, really, really, *really* dysfunctional environment :bheart, and I'm not surprised that your sense of reality got seriously warped :bheart.

I've never been in a situation in which my sense of right and wrong got systematically trained out of me, that I really, truly *felt*, to the core of my being, that what I was doing was right when at one point I had felt it to be wrong. I've been mistaken, but part of me knew it was wrong, and screamed for attention (and trying to stuff it down and ignore it both didn't work and triggered years of depression). Even with my seriously skewed view of *how* wrong and messed up I was, I still knew I was messed up. And though I ended up with several damaging habits, that my go-to "natural" response was not good (deal with stress by mentally escaping), that my natural thought patterns weren't good (feeling like I wanted to die whenever I was stressed), I still knew they were fundamentally not good, even when I had no better way to deal with it.

I totally get the difficulty of having to retrain your "natural", go-to responses and thinking :hugheart. I just really and truly don't get not feeling, at some level, at some point - whether you listen to them or not - that something about this is just not right :shrug. I get that a lifetime of believing that spanking is right would have you dismissing that feeling as wrong/misleading/Satan's-influence - you'd be pre-primed to ignore it. But it was still there, right?

And seriously, I do have a lot of sympathy for those unable to break out :hugheart - I get why they don't listen to their instincts/common sense, and doubt I'd do any better in their shoes :shrug. Heck, given my personality, I can see doing it to myself, against my better judgement, with no extenuating external factors needed :sigh. I totally get not listening to your instincts when you've been taught all your life to distrust them :yes. But that's still different from not feeling them in the first place :shrug.

ETA: I'm not trying to invalidate your experience :hug, just trying to understand b/c it's really foreign to me :shrug.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

If this is too off-topic let me know:

How do we know fi we're suffering from arrested development in the area of intuition or just score really far to the sensing side? Or in the area of devloping more intuition, does it even matter where we're starting from?

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

As for what common sense is, I'm using it in the "law written on our hearts" sense. Everyone is born with it, even though it gets warped by whatever dysfunctions you might experience growing up, gets miscalibrated and isn't infallible on it's own. Certainly newborns have instincts - to nurse, to emotionally bond with their caretaker - and they have a sense of "my world is right" and "my world is not right", the latter of which leads to crying. Their response to not-rightness is to communicate, and I believe they innately expect that someone will care about their world not being right and do something. Certainly a systemic failure on that front leads to a sense of something missing that can haunt them for life :shrug.

The point is that I believe that dysfunction can warp and twist and generally screw people up, and the earlier it starts the worse the effects - but ultimately people aren't blank slates and underneath all that dysfunction is an innate sense of rightness/wrongness that, however warped it may get, can never be entirely erased :shrug.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I knew you were not invalidating my experiences and were trying to understand. (MY INTJ husband and I have had similar conversations on other topics).
The hitting newborns were homeschoolers that moved in the same circles, but not close family friends. My family was shocked at the very idea of striking a young baby like that for waking in middle of the night. My family was more of a mainstream punitive, you know spank for open rebellion and teach them to fall asleep by themselves, but not to expect a four month old to sleep all night.
I think that even when you have a more standard "Christian" upbringing, if you cannot just know things like you do, then people like me who need to see something are going to get sucked into BW. Ezzo writes very well. His warnings are dire and jibe with what you have heard. He then offers you a formula that will work.
I did not get sucked into it, but I know a couple of women who did. And his books made them feel like this whole parenting thing won't be so bad. They both regret it. One has a child that is very like Ivy and she did not thrive to say the least. (I shudder to think what would have happened to Ivy) and one has a very angry toddler she is having to relearn how to parent. Neither woman is all about herself and making her kids not inconvenience her. In fact, I would not hesitate to say that both are excellent mothers. One was away from her support system and liked the reassurance the book gave.The other did not ever have a good support system to begin with, when the only mom she knew told her to do it, she did it. But unlike me, she has the intuition to figure out that this was not a great program. Unfortunately, it took her baby losing serious weight before her husband was willing to listen to her and get on board with something else.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

In some ways, I think of common sense being the S version of N's intuition :shrug3. One's coming from inside you, the other's coming more from outside you - explicitly the collected common wisdom of your culture (overlaid on humanity's collective wisdom). Now I don't really get the S thing at all, but my mom's an S and she's very common sense-y, and it prevents her from being taken in in the same way that my intuition, my inner knowing, protects me. Both of them are, imo, a combo of nature/nurture. And the real issue in both cases is having them properly calibrated, as well as healthy balance in how to use it - trust it, but not uncritically, just as you shouldn't trust others' judgement uncritically.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

See, I'm not sure it's *just* a function of having intuition :think. My mom's a very S person, also mainstream punitive, and very common sense-y. And when I was a baby, the prevailing expert opinion was 4 hrs b/w feeds, and that the baby "can't" be hungry before then, and if you just let them cry when they wake up early, they'll go back to sleep. But I wanted feeding every 2 hours :doh. And Mom had no trouble basically saying that the "experts" had never met me, that I gave clear evidence that I would cry the entire 2hrs until I was finally fed, and the sensible thing was to feed me when I wanted to be fed :tu. There was no "knowing" or anything, just the common sense analysis that reality was disagreeing with the experts, and the experts' reasoning was specious compared to the evidence of her own eyes. :shrug3

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

am i the only one who was told that Christians were not supposed to be "common" so "common sense" wasn't applicable to us? I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult. :think

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I wasn't raised that way (thank goodness :phew), and haven't really seen it in person, but in books and online, totally seen the general sentiment, though not the exact words :doh:banghead. Way to be stupid for Christ - what happened to wise as serpents :sigh? (And of course the potential for abuse here is *high*.)

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Perhaps it is not intuition or common sense or what have as much as it is having confidence in your judgement? My mother is also very mainstream and punitive, but she has good sense and has said something along the same lines as your mother wrt feeding.

---------- Post added at 03:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------

I never heard that. But I can see how we are not of the world could translate into that. Or check the Word could be twisted into that as well.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I think you're right, that confidence is a big thing. It would take a lot more to get someone who trusts their own judgement (in general or on a given issue) to doubt it than someone who, for whatever reason, didn't feel very confident about their judgement to start with.

Flexibility of mind might come into play, too :think - very confident people would be less likely to dismiss common sense or intuition because of outside influence, but they might be perfectly willing to ignore reality b/c it doesn't match what they very confidently think/feel ought to be the case :doh.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I haven't heard that about "common sense" but I have heard that because we live in a fallen world, our motherly instincts (about wanting our babies with us, and responding to their cries) are also fallen and warped and sinful :cry

And coming from a culture where we're taught that our instincts and intuitions are wrong... well... how can we then argue that people should somehow just know to pay attention to those things? Our culture does not value innate knowledge much at all, from what I can tell. Especially not the innate knowledge of women/mothers...

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

That makes a lot sense. If you think that your judgement is sound, then you can take flack about your choices without backing down. The first part of the flexibility makes sense. But I don't follow the part about ignoring reality.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

Yet you just know when you hear God's voice calling you into something. Or that you are to marry someone. Or that you should jump onto whatever trend is of the moment. :-/

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Not necessarily. It is also hard to have your kid get a necessary blood test when they are screaming and crying but that does not make it bad. It is hard to hear you child scream when in a carseat and you may wish you could just hold them instead. Doesn't make it wrong. It is even hard to have boundaries and not be permissive at times.

LOTS of things about parenting are hard but equally right. Feelings cannot dictate what is good or bad.



NOPE. No feeling. Just statistics. I decided in AP/GBD based on observing both ways. I have no innate sense of good/bad right./wrong just the Law of God and then observable effects of that which is wrong that is NOT spelled out.

Well, I was taught nothing. MY "instincts" were conditioned responses to how I was raised and how I saw others raised. (Which had very little hitting and was mainstream but not ezzo) I still hate threads where people say over and over "What does your mama-gut tell you." I do not have one. But I have LOVE. And I know what is loving. I also know that sometimes what seems loving on the surface is not really. It is not loving to tell your kid you wont make them have a medical treatment just because they are scared and it will hurt. So I have to rest on the fact that I *Know* that this procedure being are exposed to many sources that say in the long run it IS loving and the bible says to do it, I was inclined to believe it. Fortunately I found GCM that had different IRL examples of what hitting does long term and how the lack of it can be very loving. Then I examined scriptures for myself.

ETA: I'm not trying to invalidate your experience :hug, just trying to understand b/c it's really foreign to me :shrug.[/QUOTE]
Everything in my life is weighing facts. Feelings for me are just emotions. And I likely do not understand intuituion. TO ME it seems unreliable at best and superstitious at worst. I know for Ns that is not true. But I am not an N at all. Therefore I cannot function as one.

I was told that sort of. That sometimes what we do is counterintuitive BECAUSE our hearts are decietful and we need to be above them. Therefore mysogeny, inequality, and hitting your kids was HIGHER than those lovey-gooey unbelievers with their girl power and "permissiveness" will be proven wrong in the end.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I agree that our instincts are warped by sin - they are shaped by fallen people living in a fallen world, of course they are :sigh. But so's our reason and emotions and will and we still use those (although people do throw out one or more of those, too, in the name of "sinful":doh). Yes, our instincts are not perfect - but *nothing* about anything in the world is perfect, it's all flawed b/c of the fall. But like the world, our reason and emotions and will and instincts still more or less work (and thank goodness :phew). But I've never seen a convincing argument for why we should trust sweet reason instead of our instincts :shrug. They are both equally likely to go wrong.

Yeah, it's not so much ignoring reality as it is the "more cowbell" :giggle approach to problem solving - if something isn't working, the *only* possible reason is that you aren't doing it right/enough :doh. The idea that it might possibly be the wrong approach is not an option :snooty.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I agree with you. And in the here and now, if I have evidence that what I am doing is better than what you tell me, I am going to do it my way. But for chidl-rearing, there is the longitudinal aspect. So the only time I would go against Dobson, was when I had proof from someone who had grown (or at least older) kids that doing it another was better. It was not confidence at all, it was evidence. I knew it was ridiculous to try to do somethings with my baby as he was. But I had to be shown why it was OK not to be punitive. Because "common sense" is sensing that which is common. If it is common to do X and that is all the evidence I have, it seems sensible. But as an S it is also easy for me to change if you can show me your way is better. Which obviously happened.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

Yes both our reason and our instincts can be wrong that is why iIn the church I was taugh to trust the Bible - not reason nor instinct. I still think that holds some weight so long as the bible even speacks on the issue. But , it took me a while to realize their interpretation may be wrong, or at least based on a scripture that is vague, and that some things are not addressed at all and just Christian culture.


For the rest, I am not going to stop using reason to guide me because I have almost NO intution. None. If I base my life on that I will stand still with a blank look for eternity :giggle What I have to do is keep testing my sources and retesting to show it was not a fluke. Basically the scientific method.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Thank you for your response :) - I'm really trying to get a handle on what it means to be an S. I will say that to me intuition and feelings are *not* the same, not at all - interrelated, but totally distinct. It really is this *knowing*, that's separate from reason, from emotions, from will.

It seems to me that, at some level, we are all have access to the same input - we just process it differently :think. Would you say that you use common sense?

Yep, and there's the abuse inherent in that position :mad:banghead.

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

Yep, they are all hard because they involve causing pain to someone we love :(. That is *not* natural, that goes against the grain. The fact it's even necessary is due to the fall :sigh. Causing pain = bad.

To me a key difference is whether the pain is incidental - we'd avoid it if we could - or if the pain is integral to the process - like spanking, the *point* is to cause pain. If you took away the pain, you took away the point. And as causing pain = bad, anything in which deliberately inflicting pain is the point is just not justifiable :shrug.

The thing with rely on nothing but the Bible, is that we have to get that input into us *somehow* - and all paths are flawed :doh. Reason is often nominated (explicitly or implicitly) as being some more sanctified than the rest, but there's no Biblical reason to justify it :shrug.

Anyway, I don't see intuition as an alternative to reason; intuition more synthesizes the input from reason and emotions :shrug3.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I'm much more of a "weighing facts" sort of person as well :yes I research everything to death and I tend to not go by "feelings" as a general rule. My T is extremely strong :shifty

However, it seemed incredibly flawed to me to discount motherly instincts. Especially when other mammals have them as well and, in their cases, those instincts are extremely important for their babies' safety and survival. There had to be a reason for these things - such as the fact that a lactating mother's body will let down milk when they hear a baby cry!

So... I researched to find the reasons behind the instincts and came to the (very logical, IMO) conclusion that there were good reasons behind them and that following those instincts was the correct thing for me to do.

I know that spanking never "felt" like a good thing to do (especially not on the receiving end - I've never actually dealt one out - and not even when I would think about spanking someone else), so I researched until I was confident that, logically-speaking, it wasn't. At least, not on a regular basis. It took me a little longer to come to the conclusion that hitting a child is never the best course of action even though sometimes it can seem to produce positive benefits and might seem like the only thing that can be done at the time (rather like in the Little House books where Laura whips that boy student when she was the school teacher).

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I relate to this - my intuition is pretty thinking driven, too :yes.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I have access to whatever is in my enviornment. Many S's have N in them but not primary. I score almost none. NONE. Whatever N is I do not have it at all. I understand it is not feelings and I can spit back out your explanation to someone who is asking. But it is like a Deaf person trying to explain hearing. I do not get it because I do not experience it.

Common sense to me is the same as wisdom. It is things people have told me + things I have observed +things I have experienced. Then I apply them to similar situations. It is not some (for lack of a better word) feeling.


Well of course. But some pain IS good. A little burn when you excercise shows your muscles are working. Pain in childbearing can be spun ver positively. And so since we know babies communicate through cryinng - when one tells you all they are saying when they CIO is "i'm tired" and not to worry - it is easy to believe untill you get enough evidence otherwise.


Well I do not rely on noting but the Bible and disagree with that stance. I was just saying this was what I was taught. The Bible is stll foundational to how I live though. I just allow for various interpretations and do my best not to read it through our cluture. For the rest I use reason because that is who I am. I do not distrust the intuition of others, jsut like I hope my Deaf freind believes me that I hear a fire alarm even if she doesn't hear it. But just as she is going to be basing her perception on what she sees and feels(Vibration/tactile not emotion) and other sense, I am going to base my understanding on what I can take in via 5 senses. I am glad when intuition comes in to play because sometimes sensing takes longer. My friend might have to waite to see or smell the smoke if I am not there.

I also know an N can be logical and a S can be illogical. BUt I can no longer be intuitive than my Deaf freind can hear. :shrug3

[/QUOTE]
But that does mean that suggestions to go with what your mommy gut tells you make no sense to me. What I did is imagine what I would do if I was raising my kid with no example or esperts. That means I would not have the benefit of longitudinal studies and have to base it on what I know here and now. The second thing I do is use all of human history and not just the industrial era as my guide. What have MOST moms done?


My instinct is to feed on demand because otherwise I leak and to come when they are crying and protect them from outside harm. But I also have an overdelevoped fight or flight instinct (Studies show this is common with ADHD) that makes me whant to either hit, run, or yell when hurt or wronged. And to be a good mother I actually have to go AGANIST instinct in that aspect.:shrug3 And I was never spanked that I can recall so I do not have that experience to base my decisions on.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I think that hitting is an instinct as well - in the heat of the moment, at least. Babies demonstrate that instinct really early on. But that's an instinct that I rejected ultimately because of my research, but also because (when one isn't in the heat of the moment), it seems to be a wrong thing to do. At least, I've been taught my entire life that hitting others is wrong, so why should there be an exception only for parents to hit tiny little children?

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if it does or not :shifty It did in my head before I typed it out!

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

:cup

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Yes it makes sense. For me I was told never to pick on people yonger than me. Hitting your children goes against that. But the instinct to hit is as real as the instinct to protect. And if I am injured (Even accidently) by my child, I do raise my hand at first - though my brain kicks in and stops me:yes

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

:yes It's an instinct base on emotions of fear, anger, revenge, and self-protection. Not things I want to be basing my parenting on. :no

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

i became a christian as an adult..i just thought things that seemed intuitive to me- must be warped by sin. so as a new christian..and having my 2nd baby as a christian.. i had a hard time trusting instincts.
i read BW w/ my 2nd. but he wasnt especially needy :shrug3 so i lightly implemented some stuff. with the 3rd- i went full on. we still suffer from that :(
i knew a very AP family at church- and their kid was Hell on wheeles.
( the pastor gave them the same "discipline" book he gave me, and they put it into action. he did change)

thus further supporting the Ezzo thinking.
my eyes werent opened till my 4th. when i was finally able to breastfeed. it changed everything :hearts thats when "instinct" smacked me in the face..and i couldnt supress it.. so i start with feelings..then go after facts to prove or disprove ( which i still need to be careful with)

i dont know how women breastfeed and still do Ezzo..wow. i just dont understand. the internal conflict that must be raging

---------- Post added at 05:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 AM ----------

oi. :crazy..this is my husband. all.the.way. ..
what MB personality type is that?

back to your regularly scheduled program :shifty

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

"People should just use their common sense and intuition to know when to stop doing, or not use something. Chew the meat and spit out the bones."

Sometimes people choke on the bones before they realize they are in the meat.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Yes, that does make sense, at least to me. I think this is why I am more upset (MUCH more upset) at the thought of cold-bloodedly planning out a spanking session, than at a mom (or a dad) losing her/his temper & hitting. Because I know that temptaion to violence is in me, too.
But I do see it as a temptation, even (especially?) when I see it on paper as part of a "plan" for childrearing. It would :snootynever occur to me as leading to a positive result. :think

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Just to throw another wrench in the works...

My best friend is an OB nurse and she says that instant, overwhelming, amazing, I Would Kill For This Child love that hit me the moment Sumo was born is, in no way, a universal experience. She sees many, many mamas who are borderline indifferent to their new babies or see them as a nuisance from the start. :cry So their "mama gut" or "instincts" would be a highly unreliable well to draw from in caring for their children.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

This makes me really angry :mad

I fall into that category. I don't have the love at first sight thing happen. And I'm sure I appear to be indifferent to my babies. Mine have all been born by c-section and I've been on morphine. Also all of my babes have been taken to NICU regardless of if they actually needed to be in NICU or not.

You can't judge a woman's reaction to her baby child from a few hours of observation while she is recovering from birth. :no Especially not when you add in the after effects of pitocin, epidurals, narcotics, and surgery.

And frankly my first instinct is to make sure *i'm ok* I'm in pain and disoriented l can't move without assistance, I can't even lift my baby out of the bassinette without assistance.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

No, that's a really good point. I think what my friend is saying is, you can't depend on a woman's passion for her baby to keep the baby safe, because not EVERYONE feels it right away. Could be due to medical issues, pressures in her life, drugs she's on, etc. You just don't know.

So there is some value in women having a set of principles to draw from in case the feelings take a while to kick in.

Hope I didn't hurt your feelings. That's all I was trying to say. :hug

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I did not feel anything that close to love until Ivy was around ten weeks or so. But to say that I was indifferent or considered her a nuisance is harsh. Just because I was not totally in love with my baby as soon as I conceived her does not mean I found her to be inconvenient. Just that I needed time to get to know her and to develop a relationship with her. I also have to wonder how many new moms cover their fear by pretending they could not care less about the baby.

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

I have to be honest. I see why parents would think it to be the best way. I heard the spanking verses my entire life and until God opened my eyes, I believed that hitting was the ONLY way to ensure you did not raise godless heathens. But it is only because I asked to God to show me his way that I was finally able to see the distortions for what they are. I am not defending hitting children, I want to make sure that is clear. And having learned what I have learned, I have to wonder how on earth the Christian psychologists and pastors can in good conscience scare parents into hitting their kids.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I have had both medicated and natural births. I have not had that instant connection with ANY of my babies - even the one that I tried so hard to concieve after two losses and had 100% natural birth with and picked the most family orineted name of all of mine for. But seconds after her birth i was already protecting her insisting they not give her the Hep B shot that I disagree with. I can know to protect and care for my child and GIVE him/her love before it is a feeling :shrug3

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

Exactly, I researched everything and was ready to go to war to protect Ivy before she was born and after her birth. You don't need to feel something to know that you need to protect them.

Re: Common sense and intuition
 

I used to say that I ave no instincts, now I think I'd say I have trouble telling the difference between instincts and social programming. The thing is, what do you do if *all* options feel wrong? It feels wrong to leave my baby to cry *and* it feels wrong to disregard my father's advice that 'it won't hurt her'...
In fact, there are multiple instincts at play, in opposition to each other: One of the world's most basic/universal behaviours/values is respect for (perceived) authority. So if a respected friend/relative/pastor gives you a book telling you that it's *the* way, and the book makes that claim as well - and in choosing to read it, you're kind of placing yourself under its authority - then you've got an instinct-to-obey fighting your Mama instincts, if you even notice them. Then we're programmed to place the tribe above our individual instincts because being part of the group is so important to survival, so if everyone else around you is doing it, that's another instinct you need to fight. Even those of us who are attracted to 'alternative', counter-cultural stuff may feel uncomfortable talking about those things in a hostile group... And if it's what everyone is doing, then it must be common sense, right? And the people around you won't necessarily come out and say how they *didn't* follow the advice and in what ways they let their common sense prevail - they may not even be aware of it themselves, as others have mentioned the filter can be quite impressive - so you're left with the assumption that there's someting wrong with *you* or your child...

Probably enough rambling...