Can we talk about CORN?
 

I have not read the Omnivore's Dilemma but I know there is information about how unhealthy corn is. It's on my "to read" list :tu. So I posted on FB about corn, asking if "organic" corn was okay. A friend didn't elaborate but said it was just awful for us and will kill us. Soooooooo, anyone care to enlighten this girl who hasn't done a lot of research on corn?

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Corn is a high-calorie and nutritious grain crop that you most definitely want in a survival garden. It's sustained entire peoples for centuries in some parts of the world (usually in combination with beans, which compliment the nutrients in corn). Corn is not awful and is not unhealthy.

Because corn is such a high-energy and multi-purpose crop, it's one of the primary crops that science has tried to improve upon. They've done it through natural hybridization (completely safe, natural breeding and selection of plants), through hybridization in the lab (just speeding up natural breeding process) and by inserting genes and such from things that would not naturally cross with corn (animals, etc... not accepted as safe by all, including myself). It's the latter that scares people away from modern commercially farmed corn because it's so prevalent in the food supply.

"Organic" merely refers to how a plant is grown. If a plant is grown in ground that has not had synthetic chemicals added to it and no synthetic chemicals were used on the plant while it was growing, both the plant and the seeds produced by that plant can be slapped with the "organic" label and if the variety is established and stable and meets certain criteria, also the "heirloom" label. However, there are many pesticides that occur in nature and that are harmful to humans at certain levels. Organic growers are allowed to apply these pesticides with little regulation and because they're not as effective as their synthetic counterparts, they have to be applied to the crops more often. Organic doesn't always mean pesticide free, just synthetic pesticide free. You'd have to know the practices on that particular farm to know what you're actually getting and that's often not on the label in the grocery store. Organic doesn't always guarantee safe, although it's a lot more likely.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

If you have Netflix you can watch Food Inc for lots of info. They don't appear to have King Corn on their instant list anymore, but you can get the dvd.

Basically two things have collided in our country (assuming you're in the US ;))

1) Corn has been "bred" and genetically engineered until it has almost no grain left in it (it isn't a vegetable like people imagine it to be--it is supposed to be a grain). It is now a sugar. Period. It has been bred to be a sugar source.

2) Government subsidies to corn growers has made corn cheaper to buy than it is to grow.

This means we have corn as sweetener in almost EVERYTHING. The list of hidden corn is even longer than the list of hidden gluten :doh

I'm currently trying to tackle getting ALL corn out of our diet. I'm learning things about citric acid that leave me :sick You can follow our journey at www.theluttonfamily.com

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

im interested in this too..

i always always buy organic corn. and avoid all corn sweeteners..

but this thought that corn is inherently unhealthy? am i hearing that from people? or are they just assuming that all corn is screwed up with GMO?

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

yes--you are hearing that from people
no--I'm not assuming anything about this corn or that

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

It's still very easy to find and purchase the traditional corn varieties that have been neither naturally bred or genetically modified for higher sugar levels. Look for varieties marked 'SU'. :yes

In increasing order of sugar content: sugary enhanced (SE), supersweet (SH2) and the most recent syergystic (SY) corn varieties are the ones I believe Crystal is referring to. Yes, they have been bred for higher sugar content, however the sugars in ALL corn varieties convert to starch after harvest, the traditional varieties fastest (within 30 minutes) and the SY varieties slowest. The higher the sugar content, the longer the corn stores and thus the more time the farmer has to get it to market in a fresh state. SE, SH2 and SY corn has all be hybridized through selection – none are transgenic. The genes that make the corn super sweet are recessive. Corn plants were bred over numerous generations until the recessive genes were stabilized. Hybridized corn that depends on recessive genes for it's sugar content must be grown in isolation for this reason; if it crosses with any other corn, the kernels revert to the dominant genes of the original plants.

I think it's grossly unfair to paint all corn with the same sweeping brush.

The problem is not with corn itself, but with the quantity of processed corn in the modern diet.

ETA: For example, an "organic" sweetener derived from corn would be unhealthy, even though it's organic. It's the processing that makes corn unhealthy.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

the problem I have is two-fold

1) because of the ABUNDANCE of corn in the modern diet and all products thereof, more and more people are finding themselves with sensitivities/allergies to corn--and it's almost impossible to find and avoid it all

and

2) the body doesn't know the difference between types of corn and the allergy isn't type specific

So once you have the problem, it doesn't matter what kind you get, you probably won't be able to eat it.

"Organic" doesn't always mean all the things we want it to mean. And unless you know all the hidden names of corn AND make almost everything from scratch, you *are* getting the nasty corn products you're trying to avoid. Citric acid--in all sorts of "allergy safe" and alternative foods as well as everything mainstream . . . corn (and a by-product of making corn syrup)

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

I didn't realize we were talking about allergies. Of course, anyone with an allergy would have to avoid any occurance of the offending food.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

that's the angle I'm coming at it from

but because I'm coming at it from that angle I'm finding out how prevalent it is and how HIDDEN it is.

I'm not tying to paint "all corn" with a broad brush--I don't believe that *in our modern culture* with the way corn is handled, you can avoid all of the corn people are trying to avoid.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Macky, I see you live in Canada. Perhaps the labeling there is different. Here in the US labeling and packaging is abysmal. We don't have that specific of information on much of anything, and ESPECIALLY not corn. Corn is the protected darling of the US.

Some of us DO paint corn with a sweeping broad brush - because we are ALLERGIC to corn. It doesn't matter what variety or how it's grown.

And I'm :scratch because everything I've heard from conventional and non-conventional sources over the past 5 years of research on the subject of corn has stated that corn itself (fresh, from the garden) is very difficult for the body to digest and remove nutrients from. It is hard to grow - it depletes the soil. It is a water hog. When you to come in to strongly state that it is an essential survival food, it makes me wonder where that information came from. It's one thing for a marshy culture to grow the ancient corn varieties much like rice is grown, but I have a hard time believing that ALL people can benefit from having this as a survival crop. Could you please point me in the direction of some good resources about that? I'd love to expand my knowledge on corn.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

So if one were to plant their own corn to eat, whAt are good varieties to look for? I believe what we planted this year is "sweet ambrosia" or something like that.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Our eldest is allergic to apples, but I'm not going to go around telling people they're unhealthy, even though that's the angle I'm coming from.

It's already ten o'clock here and I have to get outside and actually get some work done on the garden before the day is gone. I will come back, though.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Jef already pointed this out, but you're in Canada. You are experiencing corn VERY differently from what those in the US are experiencing.

If you were here in the US your child might be allergic to apples. She'd be more likely allergic to the undisclosed dairy products included in the wax put on the apples sold here.

And I echo Jef's questions about your opinion of corn. Can you provide some good resources? If there's another angle to the corn issue I'd love to read more about it.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Lynsey, any good seed catalogue will mark their corn varieties with on of those four designations in my previous post. The traditional varieties are marked SU. :)

BlessedBlue... I'm finding it difficult not to sit here longer. :giggle I've GOT to get outside! Corn is included in survival gardens because of it's high calorie content. Yes, corn can be a high-input crop if you choose to treat it that way and you're after the highest yields per plant. If you're taking care of your soil and working the stalks back in to compost, though, you're returning most of those inputs to the soil and all you really need is enough water to get it off to a good start and one or two applications of nitrogen, which can be naturally sourced (fish emulsion, blood meal, etc.). Corn is mostly a nitrogen hog. We get enough rainfall here that constant irrigation isn't necessary. I'm a firm believer that any crop that needs excessive special treatment to grow in a certain climate shouldn't be grown on a wide scale in that climate. Farmers don't grow corn (or melons or tomatoes or kiwi or...) here because our climate isn't suitable for commercial farming of it and because most farmers here do not irrigate (we're in the middle of the wide-open prairie). If corn is requiring THAT many inputs in areas of the US, that's a brilliant sign that Americans shouldn't grow so much of it. ;) ANYTHING in excess is not good for you - corn, kale, carrots, whatever. I think we all can agree on that.

Carol Deppe wrote a book called Food in Uncertain Times: How to Grow and Store the Five Crops You Need to Survive. Many online sites that talk about the importance of corn as a survival food refer back to her research. I've not read her book myself, but I did find this interview online. As far as the nutrients of corn, you can find that easily with any search engine. Here's one that popped up on my quick search. K... going now, back later.

ETA: We get more than our fair share of processed foods from the US, so don't think we're entirely immune from your corn-based foods up here.

E(again)TA: Lynsey, I just typed "Ambrosia corn" into a Google search and the first link was to Park Seed. The description says it's a sugar-enhanced (SE) variety.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

FWIW, I'm not particularly coming at this question from an allergy standpoint, although I appreciate the input of this information as well. That said, I am not trying to get corn out of my diet, but am seeking to learn what is the better of corns to eat or choose. I've got Arrowmills organic popcorn kernels in my cabinet. I also love to get corn on the cob from the farmer's market. I would think that these "simplistic" and original forms of corn would be okay but it sounds like it may not be as well :scratch. I get that corn is in so many products but I'd probably be amazed to find everything it's in, like citric acid :hunh. Along with the trends of healthy eating, we've been avoiding HFC for awhile, but I'm really concerned here about eating the "whole" product of corn, and how harmful that is.


:jawdrop :hunh We buy organic apples, but are you saying that if we happen to have a conventional apple, that I am subjecting my DS -with a dairy sensitivity- to dairy?!

I'm afraid to watch Food Inc :shifty I know I should, but I know I won't want to eat anything after that.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

sadly, yes You can do a good produce wash and probably get the dairy off.

I'm just being disgusted with all the "hidden" stuff here. The FDA is supposed to protect people but it's invested in protecting the companies :( It's all messed up and backwards.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

I've done this with conventional apples and it's not perfect but it works pretty good:
Put 3 inches of water in a 3 1/2-quart saucepan and bring it to a boil over high heat. Insert the narrow end of a chopstick into the bottom blossom end of each apple. Dip the apples, 1 at a time, into the boiling water for 20 seconds to remove the wax coating. Wipe dry with a paper towel.

C/o Alton Brown:)

---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------

re GMO corn... If you buy certified organic products, including corn, in the USA, the USDA says:
Of course, how closely this is followed is a matter of USDA enforcement :tinfoilhat

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Well, that and GMO has a very specific definition. And it also begs the question what has been "grandfathered in" to not need GMO labeling.

Tinfoil hat, indeed. :yes2

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

what an interesting discussion.

:popcorn :shifty

:cup

:giggle

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

I watched King Corn on Hulu today.
Then I saw this thread. Coincidence?

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

:yes The way the FDA handles labeling and what is allowed in food is truly disgusting. :shiver It makes me want to move to Europe.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Subbing.

I read Ominivore's Dilemma years ago and it started me inching down the path of being a bit "weird" about food. (Then I came here and realized I'm not even close to "weird" ;)) But I still love me some fresh corn on the cob with butter and salt. Yum.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Can there be no outcry? No legislation to make this "right"? Is the FDA THAT big? :(

It saddens me that we bought a house (that we love and don't intend to move from) that is completely shaded. A garden is not an option, we tried 2 summers in a row and failed miserably. If you look at our address from the google maps ariel view, you can't even see our house or yard, it is covered that much...no sun to it. Great for play and hot summer days, not good for growing my own food.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

I've come to think they must be that big :( And codependent. Seeing the number of Monsanto legal counsel who were part of the FDA
for the last several sitting presidents, and even a current Supreme Court Justice (who has ruled in ways that has advanced Monsanto's rights http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscour.../thomasbio.htm). I will never remember the details, but they talk about it on Food, Inc.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Basically the long and short is that corn is a good and healthy crop if it is grown correctly and non-gmo, and you are not allergic. FWIW, my dad is terribly allergic.

The bad about it is that it is not farmed well, it has become a "junkfood crop" and is in everything. Corn is now making it's way into plastics, it's already in gasoline (which is why some Jewish communities get corn-free gasoline for passover), it's in drinks, it's in food, it's in junkfood, it's in packing peanuts, in wax covering, paper products (TP, Paper towels, baby wipes, disposable eating utensils/plates/bowls), it's in styrofoam now (packing peanuts and eating utensils), it's in the coating on those nice little paper containers for things like milk and juice, it's now in plastic wrap (reynold's and such) and they're finding ways to make it into clothing.

That much corn can't be good for a person.

Traditionally, corn was a fermented food. That stopped somewhere in the 40s-50s, except in cultures where people continue to eat traditional foods. There was a story in the 30s-40s that kept cropping up in the south about people who were not eating fermented corn and were subsisting on the stuff and had Pellagra - basically nothing but vitamin B3 deficiency from terribly poor nutrition. (corn and pork fat) See this also.

The question really is, will our food be used for good? (Best optimal nutrition / non gmo) Or will our food be used for bad? (Gmo, slam it in everything and anything you can and subsidize the heck out of it)

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

what about organic blue corn..like blue tortillia chips?

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

So, is this a discussion about corn itself – real whole corn, fresh or dried – or about US-specific production and uses of processed corn products? Those are two entirely different discussions. I've been busy and haven't been able to come back to this thread until now and I'm only interested if we're discussing the former, not the latter.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

As the OP, I am curious specifically if eating certain corn is "ok", like organic popcorn kernels for popping or local farmer's market corn on the cob, or organic good quality tortilla chips (as mentioned above). Hearing the "evils" of corn (and yes I live in the US), I'm wondering if there is any okay corn, assuming I'm avoiding the corn that's an additive and not eaten in natural form.

I am also interested in the discussion of corn in general so any discussion is fair game! ;)

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

I'm out then. Carry on! :)

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

Do you have an opinion on my original questions? No one seems to want to answer it. I'm wondering if it's just going to come down to a personal decision, but I would like others' opinions! :yes Or should I assume that by your first post here that you feel corn in original form is fine? :)

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

I agree with this! Corn and beans were a staple of Native American diets long before Europeans came along.

There's nothing inherently wrong with corn, but the problem is that it's somewhat difficult to find corn that isn't a GMO and organic... but you CAN find it, you just have to look a little harder, and it's delicious too! :yes

Also, it's a pretty popular myth (but it is a myth nonetheless) that "humans can't digest corn, so they just poop it out". It's only the outer casing of corn kernels that pass right through your digestive system. As for the rest of it, corn is a fairly nutritionally sound food. It's a good source of B-vitamins, magnesium, and folic acid (among other things I'm sure) and it's also got a lot of fiber in it, so it keeps you full-feeling for a while.

I think that maybe a lot of our "fear" (for lack of a better term) about corn is due to the fact that most corn isn't grown or used for the purpose of being a "unaltered veggie side dish". We eat a lot of corn, but it's not yummy grilled corn of the cob, it's things loaded with corn syrup, Doritos or other "corn chips", beef that's been fattened up on corn, etc... Corn isn't the problem, it's the way we use it. It's like potatoes. There's nothing wrong with potatoes, but the only way Americans ever seem to eat them is french fried or in chip form, and so we associate them as "junk food" when it's really not.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 PM ----------


You know, I did watch Food Inc. I think it was pretty well done, but I do not think the documentary is above all repute nor the "end all be all" source for nutritional eating and statement of why we have the food culture that we do. It is not as in depth as people make it out to be. It touches lightly on a broad spectrum of topics rather than focusing in depth on a single issue. It's also highly one sided (although, granted, the film makers were declined interviews from the "other side" (executives/scientists from Monsanto for example) so it's not one-sided by choice). I think that, for what it's worth, it's a great introduction to the state of our modern food supply for someone who might not have much previous knowledge, but it is not a great reference source.

I think that if you're interested in the topic of corn farming, specifically, King of Corn is a much better documentary. However, there again, just like Food Inc., there's a lot of information that was left out in order for the film to make a more sensationalistic point, and thus be more "entertaining" for a broader audience. I guess I really just don't feel documentaries are a good source of comprehensive information. They have to be entertaining or no one will watch them, and they're not going to be so entertaining when they rationally explain the benefits and negatives of both sides of any given argument.

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

this is a subject i'm very interested in - on both sides as a farmer and a consumer. ok i'm not a farmer but my dad is a conventional farmer. we raise grassfed beef :tu and we don't really like dirt farming but it's a part of our life, kwim?

dad grows beans, lentils, wheat and canola mostly. I know that canola is mostly gmo and it kinda freaks me out about the herbicide resistance etc...but for the majority of crops grown in western canada, they aren't gmo. (Robin was right about differentiating between gmo and selective plant breeding - gmo is going inside the cells at a microscopic level and changin' things that shoulda-never-bin changed!) But corn IS mostly gmo.

Anyway. I don't know what I'm trying to say. I guess that (coming from a Traditional Foods Diet perspective) I agree with previous posters that said that corn isn't bad in itself, but the way it's being used is bad.

And :popcorn (:shifty) for more discussion. :giggle

Re: Can we talk about CORN?
 

This is a topic where my guiding principle comes into play:yes I want what I put into my body to be as close as possible to the form God gave it to us! Whole foods, non-GMO, no chemicals, etc. Although I'm a fan of cooking most things first;) (some people with this approach eat only raw, I am not one:no)