Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

When I'm reading the books to my kids, I've skipped over the whipping parts.

Do you think it was far more frequent than mentioned in the books?

Do you think the girls really sat still in church because of the threat of whipping or was it simply that it was the expectation, life wasn't entertaining all the time (cell phones, ipods, Kindles, laptops, tv), or ?

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

I've heard a few things on this. That there was pressure from the editors for the whipping parts to be in there and that the Ingalls were actually very gentle.

I'm currently reading a book about Rose Wilder (it's free on kindleunlimited and it's called "wilder rose" if you're interested). It talks about how Rose Wilder Lane really basically wrote all the Little House books. And a LOT of creative liberties were taken in weaving the stories and times around to make them flow and work and be what they were.

:cup

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

OH! Fascinating!

What was that other series you mentioned that people read instead of?

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

Those books are classified as fiction.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my kids sit still in church without any threat of whipping or honestly without any threat of anything. It's something we do as a family, we've done it since they were born, they know they are expected to sit still so they do. I don't see that it would be any different with the Ingalls family. They seemed like very involved parents who knew how to guide their children. But you have to consider these books basically fiction, and talk about these people as fictional characters. If we're talking about the real people, we know basically nothing about the real people, so we have nothing to go on. But we can discuss them as literary characters.

I really don't remember much about whipping in the books anyway, at least not about the Ingalls whipping their daughters. There was some whipping in Farmer Boy, IIRC, and one story that Pa told the girls about when he was a boy. Is there any account of Pa or Ma whipping their kids?

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

I'm not sure I understand your question, instead of Little House?

I have mentioned elsewhere that we were supposed to read Little House In the Big Woods for school but we're reading All Of A Kind Family right now, it is fantastic!! The kids are loving it. The parents are so gentle and creative (the Mama of 5 solves whining issues by playful parenting). We are LOVING the first book so far (I read it growing up but it's been at least 20 years!).

Maybe that's not what you meant though. :O

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

My kids sit in services and behave. They dance and sing along during the worship time, they sit on the floor or in a seat with magnadoodles or at the Children's Table at the back of the sanctuary (they have busy books and crayons available if the kids prefer a table to work at). They don't sit like Laura and Mary (or at least what we hear of children of this time) did, but they are quiet and generally well behaved.

I have wondered about this, the story in Little House in the Big Woods about the whipping seemed so out of place with the rest of the gentleness of the book. I really do tend to lean towards the 1930's editor saying "we need the firm hand in here, this story is too sissy..." kind of deal.

From what I know of Rose Wilder Lane she was a very talented, interesting person with ideas along the Libertarian Vein, she'd seen the world and she had a lot of gentle-leaning ideals...I wonder if she made Ma and Pa so gentle and amazing because that is what she wanted in her ideal vision of that time and place and story.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

The books are historical fiction and are at least loosely based on real stories. The places they lived can be visited. :shrug3

I feel like the whippings were out of place with the rest of the book when I've read them. Fascinating theory on why that might be the case!

My kids have also sat in church without the threat of whipping. I was surprised when that came up in the other thread.

YES! That was the book(s) I was thinking of. I've never heard of them. Need to check the libray/amazon! Thanks! We're going to finish Little House this year.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

As far as how much it's in the books, I've read them somewhat recently with my kids. In the first book there is the story of Pa getting a "good thrashing" when he was a boy for playing when he was supposed to be getting the cows and Laura gets whipped for hitting her sister. Maybe also in the first book Laura complains about having to sit still on Sunday and Pa calls her too him and she "knows she deserves a spanking" but doesn't get one. There is a story about her grandfather when he was a boy going out sledding on a Sunday and getting caught and I think it said his father "tanned his hide" I think that same term was used about the cousin who won't help and ends up getting stung by lots of bees, Pa said he would tan his hid if it was his boy. However I remember it being mentioned in one of the later books that he turned out ok even though his parents spared the rod and spoiled their child. Overall it's not a lot in the stories about Laura. The father in Farmer Boy comes across as abusive to me though.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

One thing that made me wonder if they weren't hit more was in the book where they live in Indian country when Laura and Mary are left with the tied up dog and they consider letting him lose on the Indian. They mention this idea to Pa later and he asks very seriously if they had thought of disobeying him. They seemed terrified at even the thought of doing such a thing. Maybe it was more shame than the threat of physical punishment, I'm not sure, but their reaction seemed extreme to me for just having had a thought of doing something they was told not to. I should go back and try to find what it said.
- Ok, going back and looking at it it's not quite like I remembered. Pa asks in a terrible voice if they even thought of letting Jack loose. Laura bows her head and whispers "yes, pa". Pa says "after I told you not to?" In an a more dreadful voice and Laura can't speak and Mary chokes out "yes, Pa" and he asks them a couple more questions in a dreadful voice and they whisper their answers.
Maybe they were just afraid because of how severe his reaction was.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

There is every indication that Laura and her sisters were whipped. In her non-fiction writing and in her interviews about her fictional writing, there is nothing to indicate that part was inaccurate. The Ingalls girls were too big to cry by age 3, it was shameful, and Caroline certainly did shame her daughters for arguing. Caroline didn't raise her voice and yell but I don't know that I'd describe her as a gentle disciplinarian. Immediate compliance was required. It was the standard of the times.

Laura decided she would not whip Rose but, as Rose told, she did receive a few spankings when Laura didn't know what else to do.

Rose Wilder Lane wad a superb writer, herself, and had great success. Her writing is easily distinguished from her mother's writing. I'd have to see really hard evidence that Rose did anything other than offer constructive criticism to the Little House books. The reason The First Four Years read so differently than the previous books is that, after Manly died, Laura didn't have the heart to finish editing it.

The winter of 1880-81 is documented is newspaper articles. People who were their friends and neighbors at various places corroborated Laura's books. Laura and her cousin Lena were able to reconnect after Silver Lake was published. Certain things in the timeline of Laura's life were changed (they moved more in real life than in the books, for example) but the general timeline and spirit of her life are accurately represented in the books, according to numerous interviews with Laura and letters from people who knew them.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

Laura and Rose did a number of interviews, there are lots of fan letters that she answered and people have saved and shared, there are historical societies dedicated to them, and both Rose and Laura wrote quite a bit if non-fiction.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

Just conjecture on what Jenny said -it could have been fear of a whipping...Or maybe just that Laura was remembering the situation and how awful it was because Pa was speaking that way...And it could be because he was terrified of the "could have beens" on all sides, ya know?

I have found it interesting that from some accounts, Laura was a passionate story teller-verbally. The book I'm reading takes a lot of creative license as well and you have to kind of "well this sounds true...or some thing based off the truth..." which is how you have to read the Little House books. But anyway, Laura was a big story teller, she told stories of her childhood pioneer life well and often. So if it's true that Rose Wilder Lane wrote all the books (and *she* was a gifted writer, was in line for a Pulitzer prize for one of her books) and there is (apparently) some evidence of letters that spell the situation out pretty clearly) she was basing them off not only Laura's scribbling in the note books she used as drafts of the books (and the true structure and heart of the books) of the story in the notebooks she used, but a lot of the stories she (Rose) heard growing up and the feelings conveyed in the stories.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

I recently read Little House in the Big Woods to A. I edited whatever I felt she would not remember that I had edited out. I think she would be surprised to discover the whipping incident when she slaps Mary,so I simply let her know the part was coming,that that was what they did back then and she accepted it. Her cousins are spanked so we have talked about that stuff before.
I didn't think she would remember me editing out thrashing on Pa's story as a boy so I took that liberty.
I have read that it was Rose who wanted to take out the whipping incident and it was Laura who insisted it be put in. I think she said it was the only time she remembered her father whipping her.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

The incident with cousin Charlie that someone else mentioned-- Laura was listening to Pa and Ma talk as they rode home in the wagon. Her parents couldn't fathom why Charlie's parents were so lenient.

Parents were authoritarian back then. To be different was a big deal.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

Based on what I remember, I didn't think the Ingalls were against spanking or were what we could consider gentle. But I think that they were a lot like Susanna Wesley in that they were gentle for their time and did the best with what they knew.
I don't know how you make young kids sit still in church without using some sort of physical punishment, so Ivy has a busy bag and does the best she can to behave. She does a good job for the most part, she is just young and immature.
The other thing I remember is that life was hard in those times, so there would not have been a lot of time to disobey because there was work to be done. As in if you don't do this chore, there will be no breakfast for you or anyone else. You had to help your parents just to survive, so I think that is probably why children seemed to be better behaved in those days since there was just no alternative.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

:up. The natural consequences back then, on the frontier, could involve death. Laura wrote several non-fiction, short pieces about incidents from her life that she felt were inappropriate for children's books. They involved death or serious injury. She wrote that all frontier children knew the dangers.

Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

I've read Laura's books and many of Rose's books as well. I believe that her parents were probably strong believers in whippings yet would have been gentler than some in that day.
I do believe that pioneer children had less possibilities for getting trouble than kids in our day do. We've created a world that is not very child friendly. No cars, no electronics, no malls and shopping sprees, no over abundance of toys, not really any sweets, etc. I know my two year old can work in the field and the corral all day happily with few issues. When we go to town, restaurants, or get around modern things the problems increase drastically. A wide open prairie would have been much simpler for a growing child's mind.


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Re: Laura Ingalls and Whipping (spin off)
 

I have a hard time believing that they publishers wanted it 'toughened up' considering they removed episodes of domestic violence (not in Laura's family) and attempted assault, etc Their's was not an easy life.