Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

My cousin who is a missionary in a nondenominational church recommended the site to me, and I'm not sure by looking at their site but I get a weird vibe. Is it gentle or is it rooted in the quiverful movement?

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Above Rubies is extremely QF and I would recommend you stay far away from them and the poisonous ideas they put out there. It was thinking like theirs that influenced me so much and brought my family to the brink.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

If anyone is more familiar, could you give me some concerns and scriptural reasons why they are dangerous? He said he doesn't agree 100% with their teachings but I don't know which teachings he doesn't agree with. He said that the site references their church as a ministry. I replied back that I've been blessed with this site greatly. He and his wife have a baby about a month old, though, and I would like to share with them why I disagree with the quiverful movement but I don't know as much about them as I do many other teachers.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

If you read their website it's very revealing. http://aboverubies .org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=290:f amily-life--disciplining-gods-way&catid=36&Itemid=60

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

See, I don't think Above Rubies is that terrible. Yes, there are pieces that I disagree with strongly but some of it is good stuff. I'm not conservative by any means and I really enjoyed The Power Of Motherhood.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I still get the Above Rubies free magazine. :shifty I have been getting it for about 7-8 years I think.

I think it has helped with my healing, coming out of the Gothard-QF movement.

Yes, when I first started getting it, I was reading it as if it were the bible. These ladies seem to have it all together 24/7. Nancy and her dd's commune is in TN. There retreat is actually coming up. All mamas and their babies are welcome. I was invited to go one year, but never did. Anyone ever been to one? :think

They are all for BF'ing long term. Eating only whole foods, having as many Dc as you can etc. I suppose if you are able to spit and chew, then why not. :shrug3

That said, This months issue...I just got it last week. Nancys article is all about punitive parenting. :( She went on and on, about spanking, using the Proverbs text for back-up if I am recalling.

I am not sure if you can read all the articles online or not. I do not go to their homepage anymore. But if you can. I would suggest reading some of Nanys stuff, to get a better idea on their beliefs.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Very much not gentle, and very rooted in the patriarchal QF movement.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

From what I've gathered around here, the message of Above Rubies the magazine and the message of the website and the conferences are often different.

The magazine focuses on encouraging stories of motherhood and marriage, but it sounds to me like the website and conferences focus more on (punitive) discipline and some pretty conservative views on wife only submission in marriage . . . I don't know. I have never been to a conference, but I don't like what I have read on the website. This most recent issue of the magazine had some unsettling opinions on marriage.

ETA: Wanted to clarify for newer members - not *everyone* here is opposed to wife only submission, and normally the articles I've read in there on marriage were uplifting to me. There were just a couple of articles in this most recent issue made some statements about wives staying marriages where the husband is addicted to harmful things or is unfaithful that were just upsetting to me. And I come from a VERY conservative understanding of these things. It was upsetting enough for me to email and asked to be removed from the mailing list.

There are women here who have been encouraged by the positive messages about mothering and the welcome support for natural living practices. You'll find mixed opinions on the topic here, for sure!

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

This is my experience as well. They DO HAVE a quiverfull mindset that I personally find very refreshing since my husband and I are spacing naturally, but not "preventing" children. I LOVE the pro-bf'ing, natural health and wellness, etc.

I missed the latest magazine and didn't see the article. I'm subscribed to the yahoo group email list and generally enjoy skimming through the posts.

Definitely some anti-gothard/gothard-recovering folks on the list who would be not-happy to have the two equated. LOL!

Angela <><

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Angela!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I remember you on the AR yahoo group. :yes I thought you lived in VA. though. :think I think we talked before. I know I spent many days praying for you. :heart Do you still have your blog?

I use to be on that group a couple years ago. I shared my expirence with the Gothard/QF movement during that time there. I seem to recall several folks not seeing anything wrong with Gothard though, and grew up with his teachings. :scratch

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Once upon a time, I was a member of a QF (at the time, the only QF) email loop that was associated with the Above Rubies ladies.

I was kicked off that list because I dared to question what a woman's doctor wanted her to do with regard to a pregnancy issue. The moderators said that I was encouraging her to defy his authority :rolleyes

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

We know the Campbell family very well, (Mrs. Campbell is the editress of the magazine) and my daughter has just returned from living with them as a helper for 6 weeks - she had a blast, and I was the leader of The Power of Motherhood e-group for about five years.

They are definately NOT gothardites, and although they encourage people to have many children in the sense that children are wonderful blessings and gifts from God, they are not hardcore quiverfull, and if you have read The Power of Motherhood, Nancy does have a section where she understands that there may be times in your marriage/faith that you just do not feel able to have another child, and encourages couples to use non-chemical forms of birth control in these situations. Nancy has written the book "Be Fruitful and Multiply" so yes, she definately promotes being quiverfull, but there are also many on this board who believe in giving control of their wombs to God.

They are very PRO attachment parenting, co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding, natural/whole foods, natural living, etc. They are pro-wifely submission, but again many on this group are also. From Nancy's own words, even though our husbands may have the final word, we as wives are VERY influential, and she does not expect women to be silent. Nancy, herself is FAR from a silent, doormat wife.

The only thing that they would probably have in the magazine that is not in agreement with gentle parenting is that they are not against spanking, although this is not a major theme in their magazines, although it does come up from time to time, and you can choose to disagree, the Campbells are not afraid of disagreement, and they are wonderful examples of being able to lovingly disagree.

They are definately not hardcore conservatives, their sons are the managers of the Newsboys, and before retiring as a pastor, Mr Campbell co-pastored a church with Michael W. Smith. They do NOT live in commune. Their daughters each live nearby but they have their own homes and separate lives, while their sons live in the general area. Each daughter has their own unique flavour in their home, and each lives in their own way, completely differently than the others. Although the Campbells themselves are non-denominational with a pentecostal leaning the magazines are compilations of articles that many women of various denominations submit and are directed towards encouraging wives and mothers.

Hopefully that helps anyone interested in knowing what Above Rubies is all about :shrug3.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

There is an Angela who signs her name "Angela in VA"

and I sign my name "Angela <><" there as I do everywhere.

I'm usually the one chiming in about home birth or essential oils. LOL!

Angela <><

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

Oh that's surprising because there are a couple midwives (and myself) who regularly chime in with "No - you can try for VBAC after two c-sections" or other such suggestions. Maybe things have changed?

I LOVE the kindred-spirit-ness of "children are a blessing" which I just do NOT GET locally except for two other people in the entire town of Atoka. *rolls eyes*

Angela <><

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I used to think that it was mildly encouraging while at the same time annoying because I don't believe in WOS. I always had a weird feeling about it, but I would flip through the copies my sister signed me up for. But just recently there was a thread here where some women told of some of the things Nancy said at her conferences and my sister just told me some things she heard from Nancy. Also, the link that was posted above with their discipline ideas sealed the deal for me. I will not read them again.

There are lots of things that I read that I don't agree with 100%. But I only have time for so much reading. I don't care to spend my time reading things that I have a complete 180 degree different opinion about their *fundamental* beliefs, unless I'm trying to learn more about those beliefs. If it was just one thing here or there, sure. But I completely disagree to the point of being morally opposed to a few of their fundamental teachings.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

ok, i just read that article, and i just have a hard time believing that a child would write a thank you note for a spanking. :hunh

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

i do have to say that their site is one of the only places i've read where they talk about not spanking for childishness or accidents and that they let the child plead extenuating circumstances. they also only recommend one swat. i am NOT defending spanking, but they seem to be way more balanced in what they say than the Pearls, for instance.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Thanks for the insight... I'm not a big fan of WOS (probably because of my friends who are, most also follow pearls and I lost a friend recently when she decided my being abused by my husband last year was because I wasn't respecting him enough and submitting the way I "should" which I have definite issues... my husband should not hit me and that is not something I will ever be ok with). I see my cousin as a very gentle man, though I know the church he is a missionary/leadership roll in is fairly fundamentalist. His wife is also a missionary, though, and I guess I can't picture her giving over every decision to him? Since this is their first son and the baby is only tiny still, I want to help steer them towards GBD the best I can while being clear about my concerns for the sources they've found especially since he mentioned he's not 100% on board with all their things.
:)

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

In certain settings it is very difficult to stand up and speak truth but I am so thankful for the ones like you who are courageous enough to do so.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Hmmmmm, I can't figure this one out :scratch.

First of all, because Nancy ALL ways encourages women to question their doctors and not just take their opinion as face value. Secondly, they are very much appreciative of and supportive of midwives, homebirths, UC, VBAC's, etc., Nancy's oldest dd, who has had 10 unassisted childbirths, actually gave birth to her first two children in a tent in the middle of a Minnesota winter :jawdrop, I don't think that was doctor approved ;).

AND finally, as a former moderator on one of her e-groups, having someone banned was RARELY done. I only remember two in 5 years and one was a man, and the other was a dear mother who was extremely arguementative. Although, we never expected everyone to agree and allowed disagreement, the opening page of the yahoo group does say that it is NOT a place to debate, but to encourage one another. Some people felt like it was a safe place to share, and this woman didn't seem to agree with any of the basics of Above Rubies :shrug3, and I know that she wasn't you, this lady was from Oregon :giggle.

So based on those two experiential "knowns", I'm just not sure what happened there, it just seems like so "odd" that you would be banned for something like questioning a doctor's authority :scratch.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

This happened in 1997. The tone of the group was VERY heavily WOS, and the moderators were not women.

All the women talked about Above Rubies all the time on the group, but perhaps it wasn't actually an AR group :shrug3 Internet communities were young, then.

About a year after my expulsion from that group, dozens of splinter groups emerged from the original QF list, whose tone was much more tolerable.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I also personally know one of the dds and have met and spent time with dil & another dd.I have to agree pretty much with Adelynns take on things.I might also add that none of these women that I mentioned attend the same church as their parents.The parents are totally ok with that and the times I have spent with these women they were very sweet & loving & graceful & non-religious and flexible with their kids,very crunchy as has been mentioned,I didnt see any punitive kind of discipline happening at all. I do also think that you have to spit and chew - most of us are not going to find other people who are 100% across the board with us on every single issue.Some of the Campbells views may just be more old school and not what their kids agree with or practice or advocate.Like any of us here,they have their own ways and household dynamics set up and I imagine have to work with their parents as some of us do about what those dynamics look like.They truly love,love,love children and are open to children as Gods blessings but also are very much into rescuing children.One of the daughters adopted some older kids from a war torn place in Africa and then they have adopted more because the kids were literally crying for some of their friends left behind every day.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I detest Above Rubies. I loathe the messages of Nancy Campbell at her conferences which are FAR different than her magazine. I think she is a freaky radical and those opinions come out at her conferences, I've been to a few, and that she is shrewd enough to know that she can't publish those things on her website or magazine because she'll come under more scrutney. I believe she is a gothardite, despite her saying that she isn't, and she has strong opinions on adoption, histeroctomies, and wife only submission to the point that it can become dangerous. The websites position on spanking is vile. I am NOT against wife only submission to the level of some mamas here, but she takes it to the extreme.

Here are some of my observations from another thread on Above Rubies.



---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

I also wanted to add that it is critical for followers of gothard and Pearl to never discipline their children in front of others outside of the family. Most will appear very very gentle to the outsider, even those who are staying with them for a period, because they are instructed that discipline should only be done in the presence of family never ever where outsiders can see it. Some Gothard movements even instruct their followers to publicly distance themselves from Gothard because unless you are enlightened by God you won't "understand" There is a reason that the Duggars appear to be a very gentle family on television, but I guarantee you they spank.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Erin expressed pretty much all of my reservations about AR. I looked into them a couple years back on the recommendation of two women I met at Library Story hour.

I weeded through their QF ideas, their WOF submission ideas, and their pro-spanking ideas, but eventually came full stop when article after article made it clear about their stance on adoption. I'll just never be able to wrap my brain around a Christian having issues with adoption and infertility. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Combined with the fact that they have adopted children and subjected them to their abusive mindset about adoption make me want to vomit. Those poor children, it just makes me sick

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I have found AR very confusing, because while they are so empowering in some ways, they also include a lot of stories from families that for instance, follow the Pearls. I recall one article which the family was saying "Some people think we are too hardcore, but look at our children, they are so obedient. We believe in first time obedience" etc. It often contradicts. I suppose from what Adelynne said, that that is just them trying to let ppl be free to have their own opinions.

I think the dangerous thing is that they make statements which can be viewed differently depending on the lense that you are looking through. Eg. One massive header said "SUBMIT TO YOUR HUSBAND IN EVERYTHING!!!" (the Greek says "every high thing")

They also seem to have a "chain of command" mindset or maybe this is just from some of the articles they accept.

Nancy did one article on 'discipline', in which she was clearly referring to spanking. She said that her daughter Evangeline has been "disciplining" her children since they were quite young, (she has 10 kids) and she can take them to the shops with ease. She said they were very good kids. Apparently the spanking resulted in "the peacable fruit of righteousness". I had to wonder if Serene is less punitive or something, I wondered why Nancy didn't mention her kids were good too?

Yeah so overall, I get very confused by AR because they seem so perfect, I have to wonder if I am doing things wrong?

Thankyou Adelynne, your response brings me much more clarity

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

What are their views on adoption? They seem very pro adoption and inclusive of their adopted kids???

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

The following is the quote that I quoted in the above post from another post (clear as mud :giggle)

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

They flip my internal alarms on in a big way. I'm sure their following is filled with beautiful, loving, committed mothers, but I can't get near their theology and philosophies without that alarm screaming inside.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I am not defending the Campbells or any teachings that are sensitive to others here but this story is on their page - and is one that I heard the night we went to a info meeting about adoption at their church in TN.It just doesnt go along with some of the doctrine that was quoted earlier or the beliefs I have seen in the daughters that I know.So,in all fairness here is the link to the story that touched me so.Why would they even have this on their page if they didnt believe someone should adopt to become that childs mom & dad and to bring that child into a family,not just for doctrinal purposes? Im not trying to get into a debate and that was the only time I was ever at their church.The church the dds go to is not into Pearls or anything like that at all.Anyway,here is the link: http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=809:a doptions-orphans-tuckers-story&catid=24&Itemid=55

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

That is a drama filled rescue story, and it makes me feel :sick.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

This doesn't speak to the least about their views of adoption, but rather that we "should" adopt. It doesn't speak to the doctrine at all IMO. I have heard Nancy Campbell tell me to my face that my infertility is a result of my sin. :mad I have heard her with my ears talk about the sins of birth families being passed down into the children they have and place. I have heard her, and read over and over, about her "adopted" children vs. her bio children, and the same thing with her grandchildren.

Encouraging adoption does not mean that they don't have warped views of adoption. I know plenty of people who have incredibly sick warped ugly nasty views of adoption who adopt children.

---------- Post added at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------

:yes2

Adoption should never, EVER, be a rescue mission, even if children are sometimes rescued.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

It was drama filled, it did rescue a boy. But Jesus placed the love for that child as her son in her heart even before she knew him. She was open and completely embraced a 2 children with limbs missing as her own. I understand that you may feel upset by things such as Nancy's insensitivity calling infertility a result of sin. I have felt the same way when people have said similar about me suffering hyperemesis in pregnancy. But that story was a miracle!

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

If somebody called your hyperemesis a sin I would feel the same way. It is a lie. a false teaching. Absolutely reprehensible and worthy of rebuke. It is far more than just insensitivity, it is a LIE that my infertility is a result of sin. It is a FALSE TEACHING. We are to run from false teachers, not just spit out their false teachings.

Yes, the adoption story was sweet, and could have been a miracle. But several sweet nice stories about adoption do NOT change what she says about adoption on the flip side. You can't erase the false teachings with nice stories, you just can't separate them. There is a difference between bad theology and false teachings, and I believe firmly that Nancy Campbell falls into both.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

:jawdropooooh... bleh...
he really just said that spanking isn't hitting.... :headscratch

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Re: hg and infertility being labelled 'sin'.

I suppose IME EVERYONE has false teachings. I have been to a place where I have been so disillusioned with Christianity, the only thing that has kept me going in Jesus himself. I completely understand your feelings, and admire your confidence and conviction in who you are in Christ :-D

I have been told I was not healed because I didn't have faith. That maybe it was all in my mind, and have had ppl look at me suspiciously implying it may be that I need deliverance, and have had various people suggest I try deliverance ministry.

So yeah, completely understand your desire to go YUCK! And to tell you the truth, I constantly put myself in situations where I am vulnerable because of the 'some truths' that I might glean there. Just this last week I commented on a christian forum about spanking and got attacked about my stance. This has left me positively confused about what I believe in.

It is so hard when someone says so many good things, but so many bad things it can be hard to decipher which is which. But I feel like I have no choice, in Christianity it can be a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils when it comes to choosing which teachings you listen to.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

I'm sure this is going to end up being a "Duh!" moment, but I can't figure out what 'WOS' stands for. :question

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Wife Only Submission :)

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Ahhh....thanks! (And it didn't end up being a "duh" moment after all! ;))

So is that as opposed to wives and husbands being *mutually* submissive? (I've never heard the term WOS before this thread.)

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Yes and no. I believe we are to be in mutual submission, but that isnt the whole picture. Two people can be in submission to each other and in agreement, but still not necessarily doing what God wants. We are ultimately both to be in submission to God and he will not lead a husband and a wife to disagree.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

:sick

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Yes, we all have false doctrine that we all subscribe to. We might be wrong on this bit of theology, or that bit of theology and we might share that false doctrine with others in a teaching capacity. Having a few things that are false teachings and false doctrines are not the things that make you a false teacher. I know women on this board who I respect in an amazing way in the theological arena who have probably held doctrine that is not exactly what God means with scripture and have taught that. It does not mean they are false teachers.

False teachers often have ministries that are lovely. But what makes a false teacher is not one or two off things, but rather dozens and dozens that are the pillars of their ministry. Nobody can deny that Nancy Campbell focuses a HUGE amount of her ministry to wife only submission. And not any moderated form, but rather the type that would make women follow their husband into sin if he asked her to. That is a huge false teaching that is foundational to her ministry. Nobody can deny that adoption is a huge part of her ministry, but her views on adoption are in opposition to scripture. Nobody can deny that a huge part of her ministry is natural living and childbirth, but at the same time she has a warped twisted view of women who have had cancer and had histochemistry or who are infertile as completely sinful. She believes in natural gentle raising of children, but also believes in spanking them if they don't obey the first time and that depravity is to be spanked away.

Nancy Campbell becomes a false teacher when you can take almost any core concept of her ministry and find false doctrine there. With false teachers it becomes incredibly dangerous to glean the "positive" from their ministries. While there may be beautiful stories that are the epitomize of Jesus's heart, the overall message under those beautiful stories are false. So those beautiful stories lure you in, and then from there you get to the dark underbelly.

Re: Is "Above Rubies" gothardism/quiverful?
 

Thankyou boobymummy - that story was written by Patty Anglin,of Acres of Hope.Anyone here can read their book by the same name.She is the woman I heard that spoke at the adoption info meeting I attended at the Campbells church when we were in that area.It was a beautiful and true miracle story.IME the Campbells dds dont share all of the same views as I keep hearing the Campbells have and it just doesnt feel right to have it all lumped together and assume that anything associated with them is all wrong or yuck.some people really are convicted by God about being open to His blessings and that maybe they jumped the gun and didnt pray for His guidance when they did something permanent about birth control.It doesnt mean to me that it should then become a doctrine for all people to follow or a mandate to have as many kids as you possibly can.But then it doesnt seem right that people that have been convicted in this area should all be lumped together and kind of sneered at with others who might practice or believe in doctrines that they have nothing to do with - kwim? I want to have grace for others,no matter where they are,because I need it so much myself.It kind of struck me when someone made a comment about maybe inviting Anna D. here that so many negative comments have been made about them that she wouldnt want to come.