Classical Conversations Concerns

[attachmom]

Does anyone have information on the administration of CC? Our oldest joined Challenge B this year and he really enjoys it, but recently red flags have been going up for me. The first is that the "official CC" facebook page seems to discourage many questions, bordering on censorship. My main concern is that I can't find anything about the upper level finances of CC (specifically, how much does the Bortins' family bring in each year?). One article mentioned that Leigh Bortins paid 1 million dollars in taxes in 2010. I realize all her income is not from CC, but I would guess that most of it is. If it's the case that she makes millions each year, while most of the tutors probably average less than minimum wage, then CC is NOT a business I want to support. Can anyone tell me where I can find more information? Thanks!

[melliethepooh]

:think I don't know how Challenge works. In Foundations and Essentials, the tuition goes to the director and tutors; the registration fee goes to corporate. Then there are all the books. I'm mildly annoyed that they're making so much $$ off it, but generally pleased with the program so we're using it.

[attachmom]

Here was the response given by my son's tutor: "From the tuition money I collect for CC a little under 2/3 stays with me, about 1/3 goes to CC corporate to cover practicums, training, website maintenance, magazines costs, etc., Of the 2/3 that stays with me, a small fraction of that goes to supplies, building rental and insurance costs."

His tutor clearly puts in so much time that I'm certain her hourly wage is very, very low. I think it's wrong for the local leaders to be doing their work as a ministry, while the upper leaders have visions of dollar signs. IMO, this is the problem with a business running a "Christian ministry"; there's just too much opportunity for the CEO to profit from the good intentions of others. I'm fine with capitalism, but there should be full disclosure.

[Katigre]

Here was the response given by my son's tutor: "From the tuition money I collect for CC a little under 2/3 stays with me, about 1/3 goes to CC corporate to cover practicums, training, website maintenance, magazines costs, etc., Of the 2/3 that stays with me, a small fraction of that goes to supplies, building rental and insurance costs."

His tutor clearly puts in so much time that I'm certain her hourly wage is very, very low. I think it's wrong for the local leaders to be doing their work as a ministry, while the upper leaders have visions of dollar signs. IMO, this is the problem with a business running a "Christian ministry"; there's just too much opportunity for the CEO to profit from the good intentions of others. I'm fine with capitalism, but there should be full disclosure.
Honestly, it sounds like you're taking on the outrage for something that's not your area of responsibility. This isn't good boundaries. Is the tutor frustrated by his/her pay? You make a lot of accusations in the second paragraph that may or may not be substantiated, and I would caution you to not jump to conclusions and invent outrage where none is warranted (or where the level of frustration is not equivalent to the 'offense' of being a for-profit corporation).

I say this as someone who works at a classical Christian coop. I am paid what I feel is a very fair wage. I am paid by class I teach and not per hour. Some teachers choose to put a LOT of time into preparing their classes which makes their 'hourly wage' lower than if they put in less time (this is true of teachers everywhere, not just at a coop). That is *their* choice to make in terms of how they budget their time. IMO unless this tutor is asking for you to help protest against his wage I would stay out of it.

Decide whether CC is a good fit for you and your family or not. But don't adopt outrage over teacher wages when you're not involved in that area :shrug.

[melliethepooh]

I'm a CC tutor and I'm very happy with what I make. The hourly rate is irrelevant to me.

[Katigre]

I found this by googling - is this accurate in terms of tuition and fees?

(https://www.classicalconversations.com/sites/default/files/pdf/2014%20reg%20form%20all%20prog%20web%20posting%20f inal.pdf)

If so I find CC very reasonably priced. My daughter's ballet class costs about the same per class and it's just one hour per week vs. the multiple hours of CC.

Classical Conversations® FOUNDATIONS Program
Tuition ($13.50/week per student for 24 weeks)............................. $ 325/year
Registration fee per student per year.............................................. .... $75*
Supply fee per student per year.............................................. ............. $50
Facility fee**............................................. ..........please see your Director
*Registration fee applies to the first student in each family. Additional students enrolling from the same

[Hopetobe]

:cup

I liked the thought of CC at first, but after reading a bunch of reviews, I decided it wasn't probably for us.


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[attachmom]

I found this by googling - is this accurate in terms of tuition and fees?

(https://www.classicalconversations.com/sites/default/files/pdf/2014%20reg%20form%20all%20prog%20web%20posting%20f inal.pdf)

If so I find CC very reasonably priced. My daughter's ballet class costs about the same per class and it's just one hour per week vs. the multiple hours of CC.

Classical Conversations® FOUNDATIONS Program
Tuition ($13.50/week per student for 24 weeks)............................. $ 325/year
Registration fee per student per year.............................................. .... $75*
Supply fee per student per year.............................................. ............. $50
Facility fee**............................................. ..........please see your Director
*Registration fee applies to the first student in each family. Additional students enrolling from the same

This is for the younger children and is for the morning "session." My son is in Challenge B; his tuition and fees comes to $1290/year.

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------

:cup

I liked the thought of CC at first, but after reading a bunch of reviews, I decided it wasn't probably for us.


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Did any of the reviews you read address the concerns that I have? Thanks!

---------- Post added at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------

Honestly, it sounds like you're taking on the outrage for something that's not your area of responsibility. This isn't good boundaries. Is the tutor frustrated by his/her pay? You make a lot of accusations in the second paragraph that may or may not be substantiated, and I would caution you to not jump to conclusions and invent outrage where none is warranted (or where the level of frustration is not equivalent to the 'offense' of being a for-profit corporation).

I say this as someone who works at a classical Christian coop. I am paid what I feel is a very fair wage. I am paid by class I teach and not per hour. Some teachers choose to put a LOT of time into preparing their classes which makes their 'hourly wage' lower than if they put in less time (this is true of teachers everywhere, not just at a coop). That is *their* choice to make in terms of how they budget their time. IMO unless this tutor is asking for you to help protest against his wage I would stay out of it.

Decide whether CC is a good fit for you and your family or not. But don't adopt outrage over teacher wages when you're not involved in that area :shrug.

I'm really not looking for critique of my concerns; I'm looking for information and the problem is that I can't find it.

[Katigre]

This is for the younger children and is for the morning "session." My son is in Challenge B; his tuition and fees comes to $1290/year.
Ok, just to give a comparison, our classical coop is one day a week plus grading (36 weeks) and our tuition is $1,500/year for the age of your DS (plus additional registration and lab fees). We don't belong to a larger corporation though.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

I'm really not looking for critique of my concerns; I'm looking for information and the problem is that I can't find it.
Here is their corporate contact information: https://classical.secure.force.com/Support/ShowArticle?id=kA1d0000000HJ4K

I'd start with calling or writing to them and see if they can address your concerns. It sounds like you disagree with the corporate structure of the organization though which is a difference in philosophy that may not be solvable?

[attachmom]

[/COLOR]
Here is their corporate contact information: https://classical.secure.force.com/Support/ShowArticle?id=kA1d0000000HJ4K

I'd start with calling or writing to them and see if they can address your concerns. It sounds like you disagree with the corporate structure of the organization though which is a difference in philosophy that may not be solvable?[/QUOTE]

That's my next step (calling corporate). I was just hoping there was some information readily available that I was missing. I've talked to my son's tutor about it, and she has no idea how much the Bortins' family makes, but did ask me to let her know if I find out.

[ECingMama]

On the bottom of this link is a list of 27 reasons not to do cc.
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/494523-does-anyone-else-think-classical-conversations-is-neither/

I'm subbing for the financials.

[Soliloquy]

If they're calling their program a "Christian ministry" I would be curious, too.

I may find my shopping experience at Target to be satisfactory but I may write corporate or even boycott if I find out they buy from sweatshops or treat their employees in ways I find unacceptable.

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------

It appears they offer profit sharing to managers. http://classicalconversations.com/pipermail/sms_classicalconversations.com/2014-June/000359.html

[melliethepooh]

I found this by googling - is this accurate in terms of tuition and fees?

(https://www.classicalconversations.com/sites/default/files/pdf/2014%20reg%20form%20all%20prog%20web%20posting%20f inal.pdf)

If so I find CC very reasonably priced. My daughter's ballet class costs about the same per class and it's just one hour per week vs. the multiple hours of CC.

Classical Conversations® FOUNDATIONS Program
Tuition ($13.50/week per student for 24 weeks)............................. $ 325/year
Registration fee per student per year.............................................. .... $75*
Supply fee per student per year.............................................. ............. $50
Facility fee**............................................. ..........please see your Director
*Registration fee applies to the first student in each family. Additional students enrolling from the same

Tuition is $335 next year.

I liked the 27 reasons not to CC :giggle I hear them all. It's still working very well for us.

[Hopetobe]

[/COLOR]

Did any of the reviews you read address the concerns that I have? Thanks![COLOR="Silver"]



No reviews on higher level financials. It was more things like:

- Tutor quality was variable so you would be paying the same amount for "good tutors" as not-so-great tutors, and you were stuck with the tutor your child received, regardless of the tutor being the right fit for the class/student or not, education levels, and if they came prepared enough or not. So quite a few reviews experienced and mentioned the downsides of that.

- One tutor described her experience. She said the small amount of training didn't prepare them enough for actually tutoring, but it was more of a time to go over policies. If I recall correctly, she also said that she felt uncomfortable with a response from one of the trainers on the hierarchy/priority - that the parents were considered so low, and that the head of CC was right after God. There was no room for policy discussion, etc.

There seems to be a couple other things I don't remember now.



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[teamommy]

It's a business. Can you ask your director? Maybe there are tax forms online under whatever state the corporation files in.

I can understand the concerns, but tutors know what they will be paid and what is required when they sign up, and they agree. And I believe they are not required to have any specialized knowledge of subjects or teaching experience, even at the high school level. If you are concerned about the cost for what you get, you can Latin instruction, for example, from a teacher who knows the language, for much less than CC, and still be able to hire a math tutor or sign up for a math class given by a teacher with a math degree. I am sure the Cc tutors work very hard, but since they aren't required to be teachers but rather facilitators, I guess I wouldn't expect them to be highly paid.

[attachmom]

If they're calling their program a "Christian ministry" I would be curious, too.

I may find my shopping experience at Target to be satisfactory but I may write corporate or even boycott if I find out they buy from sweatshops or treat their employees in ways I find unacceptable.

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------

It appears they offer profit sharing to managers. http://classicalconversations.com/pipermail/sms_classicalconversations.com/2014-June/000359.html


That link that you provided, alone, is enough to tell me that CC is not for us. Personally, I have a great aversion to companies that use scripture to "encourage" their employees to perform better.
I left a voicemail message with a CC manager this morning, so we'll see where that leads.

[Soliloquy]

I thought it was odd, too. Those scriptures are for encouraging us in a Godly life and sharing God with others.

[attachmom]

I thought it was odd, too. Those scriptures are for encouraging us in a Godly life and sharing God with others.
Yes, exactly!

I got an email response to the voicemail message I left this morning:

Hello Mary, we received your voicemail message requesting financial information on Classical Conversations. We are a privately held company and are not required to provide publicly available annual reports or other financial information. Let me know if you have any question.

[sprout]

I would not be very pleased with that answer at all.

bummer.

[Soliloquy]

I'd be okay with it if I loved everything about it.

[ECingMama]

Found this thread interesting.

It's about their business model of using independent contactors.
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/522383-classical-conversations-employee-or-independent-contractor/

And this one: comments
http://ultimateradioshow.com/paying-workers-part-1/

Cons of CC
http://www.nurturinglearning.com/classical-conversations-our-homeschool-year-in-review/

[attachmom]

If anyone's willing, I'd like to discuss this further. This time, though, I'm open to critique of my concerns. :)
I just don't understand the mix of Christianity and business, but I'm not sure if I can explain it well. First, employees of CC have reassured me that nothing is amiss because "just look at their motto. It's 'to know God and make Him known.'" I've also seen that those who ask questions about CC are often told they've being "unchristain" for questioning. Why are so many okay with a BUSINESS avoiding scrutiny in the name of Christiany? Am I missing something? I know I'm not explaining it very well, but any feedback?

[Soliloquy]

I really don't know what to say. It would mostly depend on my discussions with the paid employees who run the business. The paid tutors who interact with parents & children may or may not be accurately representing the business. That memo I linked to earlier--I'm curious how high up was the person who wrote it and is using Scripture to encourage people to grow CC the way they do things? Like AmWay? Or was it something that this one person did without those above her really knowing?

Not questioning a company because they have a great motto seems foolish.

[mommylove]

You would, perhaps, encourage more dialog if you toned down your approach. It's hard to 'hear' tone online, but you come across as very combative. It's off-putting.

[Soliloquy]

I'd also be wondering if they focus more on growing and planting seeds at the expense of improving quality in their existing groups. One of the common complaints about CC is you can have a great tutor or a horrible one and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Leslie]

One of the common complaints about CC is you can have a great tutor or a horrible one and there's nothing you can do about it.

I've heard that the tutor you get can make or break the entire CC experience.

[Hopetobe]

I agree with you - something about it is off to me. After reading many reviews and seeing things that got me thinking they weren't fond of certain questioning or open to discussing certain things with the people actually carrying out their wishes and plans, I was turned off by it. I really wanted to like it in the beginning though. :shrug

They are an independent company and they can do what they want. However, I tend to favor companies which welcome feedback from all those involved, and seem less hidden behind a Christian name/motto to prevent questions.

ETA: And, I don't really even care that much about them disclosing the particular financial info you first mentioned. It's their overall tone of superiority, secrecy and unwillingness for feedback and improvement that turns me away.


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[Leslie]

I just don't understand the mix of Christianity and business, but I'm not sure if I can explain it well. First, employees of CC have reassured me that nothing is amiss because "just look at their motto. It's 'to know God and make Him known.'" I've also seen that those who ask questions about CC are often told they've being "unchristain" for questioning. Why are so many okay with a BUSINESS avoiding scrutiny in the name of Christiany?

Are you questioning whether Christianity and for-profit business can ever be compatible? Or whether Christian for-profit businesses ought to have different standards than secular businesses? Is there something unethical or sinful that CC is doing in its business practices, or is it the mere concept of profit (and more profit at the top than at the bottom) that seems un-Christian?

[Hopetobe]

You would, perhaps, encourage more dialog if you toned down your approach. It's hard to 'hear' tone online, but you come across as very combative. It's off-putting.

Hmm, I didn't notice any combativeness by the OP, just a wanting to find info out that was important to her and maybe a little frustration about not being able to find it easily. :shrug


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[Leslie]

Hmm, I didn't notice any combativeness by the OP

I'm guessing the suggestion about tone was more in how this questioning might affect the person the questions are directed to, especially judging from the response:


I got an email response to the voicemail message I left this morning:

Hello Mary, we received your voicemail message requesting financial information on Classical Conversations. We are a privately held company and are not required to provide publicly available annual reports or other financial information. Let me know if you have any question.

The response seems abrupt, and there's no way to tell whether that's because the question itself was off-putting, or the tone in which it was asked.

[attachmom]

Are you questioning whether Christianity and for-profit business can ever be compatible? Or whether Christian for-profit businesses ought to have different standards than secular businesses? Is there something unethical or sinful that CC is doing in its business practices, or is it the mere concept of profit (and more profit at the top than at the bottom) that seems un-Christian?

These are great questions. I don't think Christianity and for-profit business can never be compatible. I have a lot more to say, but I'm going to wait until this evening when I'm not mobile.

[Leslie]

I don't think Christianity and for-profit business can never be compatible.

I struggle with the same kinds of questions. Profit itself seems so contrary to Christianity, and I see how even good-meaning Christians who start a project just to be helpful can end up with their own motives getting twisted when money enters the picture (although that can happen, not just when money enters the picture, but when pride enters, too).

Sorry, I got off on a tangent, which I'm going to hide in a box.

But if profit itself is tainted and morally unethical, then I have to ask why. And I come to the idea that it's wrong for one man to sit at the top, relaxing with his lemonade in his hand, getting rich, while everyone else working for him is just scraping by. And then I come to the concept that it's wrong for one person to live in luxury while others can't, and then I look around and see that I have two coats, and doesn't the Bible say that I ought to give one of those coats away? And then I end up at a place where the only Biblical solution is to live in poverty, never having even an extra mouthful of food while anyone else in the world is hungry. And I'm not sure that's quite right, either.

The answer I've finally come to is that it's fine for a person to make a profit as long as those who work for him are getting a fair wage and working under decent conditions. As a Christian, I would expect a person at the top making really good money to be living in a godly way and using their riches for good, donating to worthy causes, starting worthy projects to benefit their community. I wouldn't expect them to live at the same level as their employees, though. If the idea was theirs, and the headaches of running the business are theirs, I don't have a problem with them having a higher standard of living unless their employees are being treated like slaves and aren't earning a fair wage. I almost said "if their employees aren't happy with their wages," but there are some people who are never happy as long as anybody has more than they do; that can be subjective.

The alternative, where Christianity and business are incompatible, is either for all businesses to be run by secular businessmen and no Christians to be allowed to own a business, or for there to be no businesses. Every person would be self-sufficient, there would be no large manufacturing plants, no oil rigs, no trade dependent on transportation because all of those require somebody at the top taking the business risks and having to hire laborers. I don't think the Bible ever makes this a requirement of Christianity. It does say that a soldier should be content with his wages, and bosses should be fair to their employees. I don't know if I would add any more to Christinaity than the Bible does.

Sorry, sorry, sorry -- I'm way off topic, rambling in my mind. This is where my mind went with the original post, and now I'm just thinking out loud.

[Ms_Dahl]

I've also seen that those who ask questions about CC are often told they've being "unchristain" for questioning. Why are so many okay with a BUSINESS avoiding scrutiny in the name of Christiany? Am I missing something? I know I'm not explaining it very well, but any feedback?

To address this point, I had the opposite reaction. I asked some challenging questions that could have been received poorly. I was very pleased that the manager for my area did not seem put off by my questions and if anything she welcomed them. She answered them extremely satisfactory and her reaction was one of the reasons why I'm moving forward with checking out a CC in action at an open house.

[attachmom]

To address this point, I had the opposite reaction. I asked some challenging questions that could have been received poorly. I was very pleased that the manager for my area did not seem put off by my questions and if anything she welcomed them. She answered them extremely satisfactory and her reaction was one of the reasons why I'm moving forward with checking out a CC in action at an open house.

Yes, the area manager has been great; she's been open and willing to answer any questions, as have the tutors and directors in our community. The problem is that she was not able to answer my question because she doesn't have the information.

[Pragmatist]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with their business practices. On the other hand, if you don't like how they run things, you can choose not to support them. :shrug3

[ECingMama]

I'm incredibly thankful you started this thread. I have four brilliant friends who do CC.

They chose CC. I want my kids to be as awesome too. Makes me want to do CC.

All four have mentioned community as a main reason to do it in early years. They've also mentioned the negatives mentioned in that blog post I posted earlier.

Where we currently live, I can find community without the expense of CC.

Talking about CC has helped me define our homeschooling goals. I want my kids to wow people with their love and knowledge of God and His Word more than a history timeline and multiplication facts. Can my friends kids do both? Probably. My little Type 1 ENFP isn't interested or ready to do both. We'll focus on God for now. Plenty of history there. ;)

I needed to read why others didn't like CC, and this thread prompted it. Thanks!

[attachmom]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with their business practices. On the other hand, if you don't like how they run things, you can choose not to support them. :shrug3

I guess I'm not certain there's nothing wrong with their business practices. Yes, we have chosen not to support them.

Thank you so much to those of you who are willing to stick with me on this and help me process.

[Ms_Dahl]

Going back to your OP, some questions I would ask myself if I held your concerns would be (these are all rhetorical to hopefully guide you as you process your feelings of uneasiness):

Why is knowing the income the Bortins' family makes from CC important to me?
Would knowing this information change the experience and/or benefits my child has/receives?
If the tutors are okay with their compensation regardless of that knowledge, why do I feel such a strong response to their pay?
Do I feel upset by businesses that have a large annual profit but go on to pay their workers a wage that may not be deemed as fair in proportion to the upper wage earners? Or is it that it includes the term Christian in the business model? If so, are there other Christian businesses that may not pay their workers a wage that I deem to be fair? Do I avoid giving them my business?

If you like everything else about CC but this one area is not leaving you with peace, I would advise you to seek clarification on these concerns by continuing to move up the ladder and write letters, etc. I definitely believe that when things leave one without peace, then it is not a direction that God desires for one's particular journey. But if gaining the answers you seek will not change things for you, then maybe that is the clearest sign of all that this is not a program that will work for your family and hopefully you can gain a sense of peace about your decision?

[attachmom]

Let me see if I can get to the heart of what really bothers me. It seems to me that the company uses Scripture and Christianity to grow their business and I find this aversive. Here are the specifics:
*I was told that CC chose not to be a non-profit business "in order to avoid government oversight and regulation. CC Corp realized that becoming a not-for-profit would subject them to possible governmental religious restrictions. They did not want that."
My concern: Something about this seems wrong. Aren't churches classified as non-profits?

*Those I've spoken to (tutor, director, and support manager) at the local level all see their work as a ministry.
My concern: Do the employees of other Christian businesses see their work as a job or a ministry? In my experience, they take the job for the job itself, but appreciate that it's a Christian company. I know this might seem subtle, but I still think it's relevant.

*On the CC Facebook page, Robert Bortins (current CEO of CC) says the following:
We follow the Mathew [sic] 18 model. If someone posts something on here that is against it and the moderator of this site sees it, they have our blessing to remove it. Posts and sometimes members may be removed when they don’t follow the group purpose. Members will not be notified of the posts removal.
My concern: On the Facebook page, it appears to me that Matthew 18 is used to stop anyone from saying anything negative about the company. Yet, it is a company and we are buying a service from them. Should we not be allowed to critique it? Maybe their Facebook page is not the place for such critique, but the misuse (IMO) of Scripture still just doesn't settle well with me.

*I mentioned to the support manager the obvious misuse of Scripture that's already been addressed in this thread.
My concern: She did not say that this was a single incident. Instead, I got the impression that this kind of thing is common practice for the company.

I have more to say, but I need to tend to kids right now. :)

[MissusLeata]

I'm a CC tutor and I was pleasantly surprised with my pay. It's not under minimum wage at all, but it does depend on the number of students in the class. Mine is full. :-)

Our director is not controlling at all and I really like our community. I can't imagine that she would ever stifle a question. I've never participated in the FB group, but I know that on our campus, Mt. 18 is the rule and before you go to the director with a complaint about another person, you are to go to that person.

But, I also know that not all campuses are run the same. My sister's campus is very legalistic and controlling. She's switching campuses next year. :-)

[attachmom]

Going back to your OP, some questions I would ask myself if I held your concerns would be (these are all rhetorical to hopefully guide you as you process your feelings of uneasiness):

Why is knowing the income the Bortins' family makes from CC important to me?
Would knowing this information change the experience and/or benefits my child has/receives?
If the tutors are okay with their compensation regardless of that knowledge, why do I feel such a strong response to their pay?
Do I feel upset by businesses that have a large annual profit but go on to pay their workers a wage that may not be deemed as fair in proportion to the upper wage earners? Or is it that it includes the term Christian in the business model? If so, are there other Christian businesses that may not pay their workers a wage that I deem to be fair? Do I avoid giving them my business?

If you like everything else about CC but this one area is not leaving you with peace, I would advise you to seek clarification on these concerns by continuing to move up the ladder and write letters, etc. I definitely believe that when things leave one without peace, then it is not a direction that God desires for one's particular journey. But if gaining the answers you seek will not change things for you, then maybe that is the clearest sign of all that this is not a program that will work for your family and hopefully you can gain a sense of peace about your decision?

Thank you for these questions. Yes, these are exactly the types of questions I've been struggling with. One morning a couple of weeks ago, my dh and I prayed that we would have a clear answer regarding what to do for school for our oldest son next year. The decision we were struggling with was whether to put him in school or do CC for high school. That very day, I saw something that caused me to start looking at the upper management of CC. By the end of the day, my husband and I felt very strongly that CC is not a business we're comfortable supporting. We also realized that there were other school possibilities that we hadn't even considered.

I'm not sure why I have such a strong desire to figure this out, but I do know that some good has come from it. The other day, my son said, "You're a fighter for freedom and justice and truth." I used to be a people-pleasing conflict avoider :), so this was quite a compliment.

So to summarize, I have peace about our personal decision to leave CC, but I don't feel peaceful about just walking away and not seeking more information. Poor boundaries, as someone already suggested? Maybe, but I'm not convinced that's it.

---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

I'm incredibly thankful you started this thread. I have four brilliant friends who do CC.

They chose CC. I want my kids to be as awesome too. Makes me want to do CC.

All four have mentioned community as a main reason to do it in early years. They've also mentioned the negatives mentioned in that blog post I posted earlier.

Where we currently live, I can find community without the expense of CC.

Talking about CC has helped me define our homeschooling goals. I want my kids to wow people with their love and knowledge of God and His Word more than a history timeline and multiplication facts. Can my friends kids do both? Probably. My little Type 1 ENFP isn't interested or ready to do both. We'll focus on God for now. Plenty of history there. ;)

I needed to read why others didn't like CC, and this thread prompted it. Thanks!

And that's a part of my uneasiness about the program. There does tend to be a "This is the very best way to homeschool" mentality.

[melliethepooh]

I've noticed the using Matthew 18 to avoid criticism of the company thing, and it really does bother me. I've seen too many abuses occur using that verse as a justification for not questioning those in authority. Which is taking Matthew 18 out of context, really.

[teamommy]

And that's a part of my uneasiness about the program. There does tend to be a "This is the very best way to homeschool" mentality.

I have gotten that sense, too, but I also think that people just tend to get excited about what is working for them. CC wasn't for me at all, because I had read so much about classical ed. and knew that I didn't need to follow this certain method to have that for my children, didn't really like or agree with the CC program, and felt confident about what we were and are doing. But for others, it is an answer to prayer or fills a need, and that is a good thing. It's a good thing to have options.

Now if the attitude of the overall organization is that CC is the best way to homeschool and it is a ministry to convert lots of people over to this way of homeschooling in order to save families from academic and spiritual mediocrity, well, that's not cool. But where is the evidence for that? (Evidence for that being the attitude or mission, I mean)

[Leslie]

My concern: On the Facebook page, it appears to me that Matthew 18 is used to stop anyone from saying anything negative about the company. Yet, it is a company and we are buying a service from them. Should we not be allowed to critique it? Maybe their Facebook page is not the place for such critique, but the misuse (IMO) of Scripture still just doesn't settle well with me.


I would agree that "their Facebook page is not the place for such critique." This theme seems to be coming up for me a lot this week -- it's the third time I've heard issues that a group doesn't allow negative criticism on their own Facebook page. Three totally unrelated groups, same issue. I don't know why any group would want to spend their time on anything other than supporting the people using their service or product. I would expect any group to remove such comments, especially if it's the same recurring type of comment.

I find the use of Scripture to justify legitimate practices slightly annoying, but only very slightly. Maybe by pinpointing what it is precisely that bothers you about it will help you pinpoint why their business model doesn't mesh well with Christianity in your mind.

[attachmom]

I would agree that "their Facebook page is not the place for such critique." This theme seems to be coming up for me a lot this week -- it's the third time I've heard issues that a group doesn't allow negative criticism on their own Facebook page. Three totally unrelated groups, same issue. I don't know why any group would want to spend their time on anything other than supporting the people using their service or product. I would expect any group to remove such comments, especially if it's the same recurring type of comment.

I find the use of Scripture to justify legitimate practices slightly annoying, but only very slightly. Maybe by pinpointing what it is precisely that bothers you about it will help you pinpoint why their business model doesn't mesh well with Christianity in your mind.

I think it's the hypocrisy that bothers me. A couple of days ago, Robert Bortins posted this message on the Facebook page: We don't like removing members, but when you've had 4 different posts that have been reported then we are forced to act.

When someone pointed out that he hadn't followed Matthew 18 because he hadn't contacted the person before removing them, he deleted his post from the Facebook page without any explanation. It's this kind of activity that bothers me.

[Leslie]

I have gotten that sense, too, but I also think that people just tend to get excited about what is working for them. CC wasn't for me at all, because I had read so much about classical ed. and knew that I didn't need to follow this certain method to have that for my children, didn't really like or agree with the CC program, and felt confident about what we were and are doing. But for others, it is an answer to prayer

When I look at a homeschool option, I want to know, "is this the best there is?" If it is, that's what I want for my children, or I'll want to replicate it as much as I'm able to within my means. Why would I knowingly pass up the best option and use a mediocre program for something as important as my child's education because I don't like the business model, or the way they run their Facebook page, or any other thing that doesn't directly impact the education my children will be getting from that program?

And if the program isn't the best there is, if there's something better, then their business model or the way they run their Facebook page is irrelevant to me.

[Soliloquy]

I think it's simply a personal difference in values. I don't buy services or products from companies if I have strong reservations about how the company is run, regardless of the quality of the product or service. I've stopped buying products because the company's tv ads disgusted me. Some people will never buy anything from an MLM company, ever.

[Katigre]

My concern: Do the employees of other Christian businesses see their work as a job or a ministry? In my experience, they take the job for the job itself, but appreciate that it's a Christian company. I know this might seem subtle, but I still think it's relevant.
IME, yes :yes - other employees of Christian organizations/businesses do feel they are in ministry. This is most common in education (Christian schools) and also social services (legal aid, social work, child advocacy - not necessarily non profits though some are).

I grew up attending private Christian schools and the teachers and administrators definitely considered their jobs 'ministry' :yes. Part of that was because they felt the responsibility and privilege of partnering with families in educating their children and teens not only in academics but in our faith. There was also an acknowledgement that there was financial sacrifice involved in teaching at a Christian school vs. the public schools (though the teachers would say that they felt the environment made the sacrifice worthwhile). At our current classical coop the teachers and administrators consider it a ministry job as well because of the purpose and mission of our coop.

But the financial sacrifice aspect of 'ministry' work doesn't seem to apply as much for part-time jobs at CC though. CC pays better than the majority of jobs available to SAHM's (babysitting, house cleaning, retail work). FWIW, I work another WAHM job that pays $10/hour (contract 1099 work), and I consider that 'low pay' compared to what I am accustomed to receiving as a classical coop teacher where my pay rate is more than quadruple the minimum wage, AND includes free childcare on top of it which adds several hundred dollars of monthly 'pay' for my family because of this benefit.

I don't feel peaceful about just walking away and not seeking more information. Poor boundaries, as someone already suggested? Maybe, but I'm not convinced that's it.
To clarify, when I said 'poor boundaries' it was in reference to adopting outrage on behalf of CC tutors about their supposed low wages based on assumptions vs. facts. Multiple CC tutors have spoken in this thread that they are paid more than minimum wage and are fairly compensated so I feel that issue has been put to rest. :)

[attachmom]

IME, yes :yes - other employees of Christian organizations/businesses do feel they are in ministry. This is most common in education (Christian schools) and also social services (legal aid, social work, child advocacy - not necessarily non profits though some are).

I grew up attending private Christian schools and the teachers and administrators definitely considered their jobs 'ministry' :yes. Part of that was because they felt the responsibility and privilege of partnering with families in educating their children and teens not only in academics but in our faith. There was also an acknowledgement that there was financial sacrifice involved in teaching at a Christian school vs. the public schools (though the teachers would say that they felt the environment made the sacrifice worthwhile). At our current classical coop the teachers and administrators consider it a ministry job as well because of the purpose and mission of our coop.

But the financial sacrifice aspect of 'ministry' work doesn't seem to apply as much for part-time jobs at CC though. CC pays better than the majority of jobs available to SAHM's (babysitting, house cleaning, retail work). FWIW, I work another WAHM job that pays $10/hour (contract 1099 work), and I consider that 'low pay' compared to what I am accustomed to receiving as a classical coop teacher where my pay rate is more than quadruple the minimum wage, AND includes free childcare on top of it which adds several hundred dollars of monthly 'pay' for my family because of this benefit.


To clarify, when I said 'poor boundaries' it was in reference to adopting outrage on behalf of CC tutors about their supposed low wages based on assumptions vs. facts. Multiple CC tutors have spoken in this thread that they are paid more than minimum wage and are fairly compensated so I feel that issue has been put to rest. :)

You're right. Thank you for mentioning the Christian school example. It's exactly these kinds of things I'm trying to sort out. Here's the difference I see. Were the Christian schools for-profit businesses? Was there someone at the top who was making a lot of money? When I spoke to the support manager, she told me that she worked 20-30 hours per week last year and made $9000. See, someone's making money here (which is fine for a business), but I think they should be willing to show where the money is going. Again, I'm going to think about this some more so I might revisit this topic. :)

[Soliloquy]

Let me see if I can get to the heart of what really bothers me. It seems to me that the company uses Scripture and Christianity to grow their business and I find this aversive. Here are the specifics:
*I was told that CC chose not to be a non-profit business "in order to avoid government oversight and regulation. CC Corp realized that becoming a not-for-profit would subject them to possible governmental religious restrictions. They did not want that."
My concern: Something about this seems wrong. Aren't churches classified as non-profits?

Yes, something is off there. I don't care if a curriculum company/program makes a profit as a business or runs as a non-profit. And there can be reasons why a small company that runs as a non-profit would have a regular business license and file taxes as a for-profit. But they either have horrible attorneys, are very ignorant, or are misleading people for some reason. There are many, many, many faith-based, non-profit organizations.



*I mentioned to the support manager the obvious misuse of Scripture that's already been addressed in this thread.
My concern: She did not say that this was a single incident. Instead, I got the impression that this kind of thing is common practice for the company.


I find that creepy and AmWay-ish.

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------

Every Christian school I know of is non-profit. I know of for-profit private schools but they are non-sectarian.

---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

When I spoke to the support manager, she told me that she worked 20-30 hours per week last year and made $9000. See, someone's making money here (which is fine for a business), but I think they should be willing to show where the money is going. Again, I'm going to think about this some more so I might revisit this topic. :)

Privately-held companies do not have to show where the money is going. Only non-profits and pubicly-traded companies.

[attachmom]

Privately-held companies do not have to show where the money is going. Only non-profits and pubicly-traded companies.

Right. And I'm wondering if CC chose to be a privately held company for this very reason, which I don't necessarily have a problem with. I have a problem with their explanation of it. Again, it seem like a misuse of Christianity (wanting to avoid possible governmental religious restrictions) or twisting things so as to appear "Godly."

[Leslie]

I think I'm having a different conversation than everyone else in this thread. It's not worth spinning a new thread, so I'll spoil my comments. ;)


I think it's simply a personal difference in values. I don't buy services or products from companies if I have strong reservations about how the company is run, regardless of the quality of the product or service.

I would do that when the item in question is a shirt or piece of furniture. But at some point, I might be shooting myself in the foot if I allow someone else's principles (which don't include any abuse or animal cruelty or damage to the environment) to deprive me of something truly good.

In this case, a business is running its business like a business. If this were just some secular company offering a really good program, their motives and business practices wouldn't even be questioned, and there would be no problem giving them our money. The difference is that these people are Christians. So, if two companies offer the same service or product, and both are run legally but perhaps with an obvious eye for profit, we as Christians would prefer to give our money to the secular business because the other one is run by Christians?

[attachmom]

I think I'm having a different conversation than everyone else in this thread. It's not worth spinning a new thread, so I'll spoil my comments. ;)




I would do that when the item in question is a shirt or piece of furniture. But at some point, I might be shooting myself in the foot if I allow someone else's principles (which don't include any abuse or animal cruelty or damage to the environment) to deprive me of something truly good.

In this case, a business is running its business like a business. If this were just some secular company offering a really good program, their motives and business practices wouldn't even be questioned, and there would be no problem giving them our money. The difference is that these people are Christians. So, if two companies offer the same service or product, and both are run legally but perhaps with an obvious eye for profit, we as Christians would prefer to give our money to the secular business because the other one is run by Christians?



I don't mind joining in your conversation. :) Actually, I would absolutely prefer to give my money to the secular company if the Christian company is using their "Christianity" to help secure their profit. I think it's the seeming deception of the Christian company that bothers me, at least in this example of CC.

[Soliloquy]

No, not me. I don't care at all when Christians run a business for profit. I wish I had my own business.

But, if they're claiming they wanted to be non-profit but couldn't because of gov't interference in faith-based non-profits, something is off.

And I abhor using Scripture to encourage sales. "Let us run with perseverance the race set before us," shouldn't be used encourage employees to plant new CC groups or recruit families. Or to sell soap for God's kingdom. It just reminds me of Amway.

Personally, I don't believe any one program can be so close to perfect that I'm shooting myself in the foot by not using it. :shrug And, if something is rotten at the core, I don't want the outer layers, either.

[attachmom]

No, not me. I don't care at all when Christians run a business for profit. I wish I had my own business.

But, if they're claiming they wanted to be non-profit but couldn't because of gov't interference in faith-based non-profits, something is off.

And I abhor using Scripture to encourage sales. "Let us run with perseverance the race set before us," shouldn't be used encourage employees to plant new CC groups or recruit families. Or to sell soap for God's kingdom. It just reminds me of Amway.

Personally, I don't believe any one program can be so close to perfect that I'm shooting myself in the foot by not using it. :shrug And, if something is rotten at the core, I don't want the outer layers, either.

Thank you! You've almost completely summed up how I'm feeling about this right now but was struggling to lay out so succinctly; thank you, thank you, thank you! :)

[mommylove]

But CC isn't a school. :scratch I keep seeing it labeled as such & it's not.

CC is essentially a educational model and a curriculum. I don't understand why anyone would expect the founders to *not* make a profit for the system they have developed. If the creators of CC weren't Christian, would this even be in question?

I know there is a LOT of ongoing red tape to be considered non-profit. Since none of us are attorneys or accountants specializing in these nuances, none of us can accurately judge the situation. It doesn't surprise me at all that the founders decided *not* to be non-profit. I'm trying to figure out why it's an issue . . . is it because some don't believe they, as Christians, deserve to earn a profit? :shrug Is that the bottom line? I'm trying to understand.

Each CC location is independently run. As with anything, bad apples will exist. It's not fair to blame the founders of CC for incompatibilities with individual locations. It's also not fair to 'blame' CC for and take personally the exuberance & passion of those families who utilize CC. Like a PP has stated, it's an answer to prayer for many, but it's certainly not the be all, end all.

I'm really not understanding the controversy. :think

[Leslie]

CC is essentially a educational model and a curriculum.


It's a co-op with its own curriculum, right?


If the creators of CC weren't Christian, would this even be in question?

This is what I'm wondering as well.

[attachmom]

But CC isn't a school. :scratch I keep seeing it labeled as such & it's not.

CC is essentially a educational model and a curriculum. I don't understand why anyone would expect the founders to *not* make a profit for the system they have developed. If the creators of CC weren't Christian, would this even be in question?

I know there is a LOT of ongoing red tape to be considered non-profit. Since none of us are attorneys or accountants specializing in these nuances, none of us can accurately judge the situation. It doesn't surprise me at all that the founders decided *not* to be non-profit. I'm trying to figure out why it's an issue . . . is it because some don't believe they, as Christians, deserve to earn a profit? :shrug Is that the bottom line? I'm trying to understand.

Each CC location is independently run. As with anything, bad apples will exist. It's not fair to blame the founders of CC for incompatibilities with individual locations. It's also not fair to 'blame' CC for and take personally the exuberance & passion of those families who utilize CC. Like a PP has stated, it's an answer to prayer for many, but it's certainly not the be all, end all.

I'm really not understanding the controversy. :think

No, it's not a school. I'm not sure where you keep seeing it labeled that way, but it's definitely not a school. The comparison to a school was only made to show that Christian schools don't seem to have many problems with religious interference, so why should CC? If CC wants to be a for-profit because they want to earn a profit, then they should say that! No, this wouldn't be in question if they weren't a Christian company because I'm guessing that if they weren't Christian, they wouldn't be using Scripture to encourage employees to work harder and they wouldn't be using Matthew 18 for their conflict resolution.

Personally, I have no problems at all with our local community and that's why this is so hard for me.

[mommylove]

The comparison to a school was only made to show that Christian schools don't seem to have many problems with religious interference, so why should CC?.

But CC is not a school, so comparing it to one is apples to oranges.

If CC wants to be a for-profit because they want to earn a profit, then they should say that!

How would you like them to say that? To me, any business that is not non-profit exists to earn a profit. I don't see how they're hiding anything. :think

No, this wouldn't be in question if they weren't a Christian company because I'm guessing that if they weren't Christian, they wouldn't be using Scripture to encourage employees to work harder and they wouldn't be using Matthew 18 for their conflict resolution.

I'm reading this to say you don't believe Christians cannot incorporate Christian values into running a business. Unless you've found scripture to back it up (and I haven't looked for any on the contrary) then this comes down to opinion. Your opinion is important :yes so I'm not invalidating that. But that doesn't make those who have the opposite opinion 'wrong.'

Personally, I have no problems at all with our local community and that's why this is so hard for me

I had gotten the opposite impression, so thank you for clarifying.

[attachmom]

But CC is not a school, so comparing it to one is apples to oranges.



How would you like them to say that? To me, any business that is not non-profit exists to earn a profit. I don't see how they're hiding anything. :think



I'm reading this to say you don't believe Christians cannot incorporate Christian values into running a business. Unless you've found scripture to back it up (and I haven't looked for any on the contrary) then this comes down to opinion. Your opinion is important :yes so I'm not invalidating that. But that doesn't make those who have the opposite opinion 'wrong.'


I had gotten the opposite impression, so thank you for clarifying.

So what is it about CC that would make it more difficult for them to be a non-profit?

By not claiming that they did it to avoid religious interference. IMO, that's deception.

It's more than incorporating Christian values, IMO; it's misusing those Christian values. I don't think I said others were "wrong." I said that this alone is enough for me to know that CC is not for our family.

:) I'm actually asking/begging? my son's tutor to show me that I'm wrong about my impression.

[mommylove]

So what is it about CC that would make it more difficult for them to be a non-profit?


Obtaining non-profit status is difficult & time/labor intensive no matter who you are.


By not claiming that they did it to avoid religious interference. IMO, that's deception.

None of us are privy to, nor are we experts on tax law or the legal implications. I imagine there's a handful of reasons why they were advised to go this route and IMO, it's really none of anyone's business.



It's more than incorporating Christian values, IMO; it's misusing those Christian values. I don't think I said others were "wrong." I said that this alone is enough for me to know that CC is not for our family.



The last sentence is an important distinction, so thank you for making it.



:) I'm actually asking/begging? my son's tutor to show me that I'm wrong about my impression.

That's asking a lot of someone who you already to believe is underpaid. Now you're asking her to sell you on CC in her own time? Not her job or her area of expertise. :shifty

---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

It's a co-op with its own curriculum, right?





It's not a co-op because they hire & train their own tutors. I don't know how to describe it . . . it's closer to a franchise, but that's not accurate, either. :think

[attachmom]

Obtaining non-profit status is difficult & time/labor intensive no matter who you are.



None of us are privy to, nor are we experts on tax law or the legal implications. I imagine there's a handful of reasons why they were advised to go this route and IMO, it's really none of anyone's business.



The last sentence is an important distinction, so thank you for making it.



That's asking a lot of someone who you already to believe is underpaid. Now you're asking her to sell you on CC in her own time? Not her job or her area of expertise. :shifty

Do you know for a fact that it's more difficult and time intensive than what they are doing now, which is hiring independent contractors? Leigh Bortins has complained about the amount of money she had to pay in taxes. Wouldn't she have a lower tax rate if CC were a non-profit? It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's this general belief that we shouldn't ask hard questions that REALLY bothers me. I disagree; if we're paying customers, we can and should be asking these questions. They have the right to refuse to answer and we have the right to decide whether we want to give them our business. No, I'm not asking her to do the research. I'm asking her, as a fellow CC mom who found it disturbing that the Bortins' family makes so much profit, if she has a better explanation for their decision not to become a non-profit. When I first mentioned to her that Leigh Bortins paid $1 million in taxes in 2010, she was surprised. And exactly, it's nobody's "job or area of expertise," which is quite convenient for CC.

[mommylove]

Do you know for a fact that it's more difficult and time intensive than what they are doing now, which is hiring independent contractors?Hiring independent contractors has nothing to do with being non-profit or for profit.

Leigh Bortins has complained about the amount of money she had to pay in taxes. Wouldn't she have a lower tax rate if CC were a non-profit?Her personal finances are separate from CC's corporate taxes. Can you link to her complaints so we can take her complaint in context?

It's this general belief that we shouldn't really ask hard questions that REALLY bothers me. I disagree; if we're paying customers, we can and should be asking these questions. They have the right to refuse to answer and we have the right to decide whether we want to give them our business.I'm not sure you're asking a 'hard' question. Honestly, I think your expectation of knowing the Bortins' personal finances is inappropriate. They are a privately owned, for-profit business. They are not church pastors, supported by church members. They are not elected officials accountable to the public. They are not on the board of a publicly traded company. No other owners of a family business are expected to release this info, so what makes the Bortins family different? Absolutely you can disagree, feel their business is too successful & choose not to support them. But to vilify them for following the legal rules of other family businesses (with a dose of Christianity mixed in) is unreasonable, IMO. :shrug

[attachmom]

Hiring independent contractors has nothing to do with being non-profit or for profit.

Her personal finances are separate from CC's corporate taxes. Can you link to her complaints so we can take her complaint in context?

I'm not sure you're asking a 'hard' question. Honestly, I think your expectation of knowing the Bortins' personal finances is inappropriate. They are a privately owned, for-profit business. They are not church pastors, supported by church members. They are not elected officials accountable to the public. They are not on the board of a publicly traded company. No other owners of a family business are expected to release this info, so what makes the Bortins family different? Absolutely you can disagree, feel their business is too successful & choose not to support them. But to vilify them for following the legal rules of other family businesses (with a dose of Christianity mixed in) is unreasonable, IMO. :shrug

There's actually a lot of debate surrounding their classification of directors and tutors as independent contractor, but you're right, it's not particularly relevant here. My question, however, remains: Do you know for a fact that it would be more difficult and time consuming for them to be a non-profit?

Yes, we're just going to have to disagree; I don't think my question is inappropriate.

I COMPLETELY disagree with the following: "But to vilify them for following the legal rules of other family businesses (with a dose of Christianity mixed in) is unreasonable, IMO." I'm not even sure where to start. I'm not trying to vilify them; I'm seeking truth and sometimes people want to look away because the truth isn't always pleasant. There's not just a "dose of Christianity mixed in" with CC and I think that's been the point of this entire thread, really. For my opinion on that, you can go back and read what I've already written.

Here's the link to the article: http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/27/pf/taxes/warren_buffett_tax_millionaires/index.htm

[mommylove]

My question, however, remains: Do you know for a fact that it would be more difficult and time consuming for them to be a non-profit?



You're asking a question that no one here can answer.

Do you know what it means to be non-profit? Seriously asking, because I do not understand where you're coming from so I can't figure out how to reply.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out later.

[attachmom]

You're asking a question that no one here can answer.

Do you know what it means to be non-profit? Seriously asking, because I do not understand where you're coming from so I can't figure out how to reply.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out later.

You're the one defending CC's assertion that they chose to be non-profit because they didn't want the religious intervention. I think there's something amiss, and I think that reason makes absolutely no sense. Of course, they'd be able to put more money back into the company (instead of toward taxes) if they were a non-profit, so yet again, why did they choose not to go that route? I'm looking for answers and I think I have as much information as I'll ever get.

[mommylove]

You're the one defending CC's assertion that they chose to be non-profit because they didn't want the religious intervention. I think there's something amiss, and I think that reason makes absolutely no sense. Of course, they'd be able to put more money back into the company (instead of toward taxes) if they were a non-profit, so yet again, why did they choose not to go that route? I'm looking for answers and I think I have as much information as I'll ever get.

I haven't said anything of the sort. Show me what I said that is confusing & I'll clarify what I mean.

Knowing the difference between a non-profit & a for-profit business is key. None of us are privy to that info, as I said earlier. That said, it's possible CC doesn't qualify for non-profit status. Most businesses are for-profit.

[attachmom]

I haven't said anything of the sort. Show me what I said that is confusing & I'll clarify what I mean.

Maybe I wasn't being clear. When I made the argument that Christian schools are able to obtain non-profit status without too much government intervention, you said it's not fair to compare the two. When I asked what about CC would make it more difficult for them to be a non-profit, you responded: "Obtaining non-profit status is difficult & time/labor intensive no matter who you are." Hence, my question: Do you know for a fact that it would be more difficult and time consuming for them to be a non-profit?

[mommylove]

I scanned your link; here's what it says:

Leigh Bortins, for example, owns a startup business selling homeschooling education curriculums and providing seminars for families. She files it as an S-Corp, meaning her business income is taxed at personal rates.
Bortins reports $1 million to $2 million in profit on her tax return each year, and she said the nearly $1 million she paid in taxes this year on her 2010 income could have allowed her to hire 10 more employees (at an average salary of $50,000) and she still could have given $500,000 in taxes to the government.
I have no idea why her accountants & attorneys advised an S-Corp vs. a C-Corp or whatever else. That is not my area of expertise.

Here's what I'm wondering . . . .

You've been involved in a local CC group & you were satisfied for the most part. You like your local community. Then you read this article & were blindsided by the fact that the founder makes (and pays in taxes) a LOT of money annually. Amounts of money you cannot comprehend. Then you consider who is paying her -- it's you. And your fellow homeschooling families. Families who are not wealthy. Joining CC each year is a significant expense for families . . . especially those with multiple kids. I totally get that! (And agree.) So you started to feel squeamish that this lady's income is out of proportion to what she actually does, considering the sacrifice homeschooling families make each year to commit to the program? You're now trying to reconcile whether she has a valuable business/service to contribute to or if she's really taking advantage of everyone?

Is that accurate at all?

[Soliloquy]

I think there is some miscommunication.

The only reason schools were mentioned is:

CC CEO stated the reason that CC isn't a non-profit company is that non-profit companies are subject to gov't interference in matters of religion. And it was pointed out that that many faith-based non-profits, like schools, don't have the gov't interfering in what they teach.

If asked why CC isn't a non-profit, why give that false information? Why not just say, "CC is our family's work, the business is how we support our family." :shrug

Maybe there's an explanation that makes sense.

I have friends who have started non-profits. It's not that hard. If you're running something big like CC you use an attorney and a tax accountant. Maybe they advised them to be a for-profit for specific reasons. But those reasons wouldn't be to avoid gov't interference in teaching matters of faith/religion.

[attachmom]

I scanned your link; here's what it says:

I have no idea why her accountants & attorneys advised an S-Corp vs. a C-Corp or whatever else. That is not my area of expertise.

Here's what I'm wondering . . . .

You've been involved in a local CC group & you were satisfied for the most part. You like your local community. Then you read this article & were blindsided by the fact that the founder makes (and pays in taxes) a LOT of money annually. Amounts of money you cannot comprehend. Then you consider who is paying her -- it's you. And your fellow families. Families who are not wealthy. Joining CC each year is a significant expense for families . . . especially those with multiple kids. I totally get that! (And agree.) So you started to feel squeamish that this lady's income is out of proportion to what she actually does, considering the sacrifice homeschooling families make each year to commit to the program? You're now trying to reconcile whether she has a valuable business/service to contribute to or if she's really taking advantage of everyone?

Is that accurate at all?

Good questions! I wasn't sure if "my history" was relevant, but since you're asking, I'll answer. :) No, I didn't just happen upon the article. Initially, I had reservations about supporting the program because of the business tactics used at practicum. I read online that the registration money went to CC, but that all of the tuition money went to the tutor so that made me feel much better about the program. I've since learned that this is true for the lower levels, but not for the Challenge level, which my son is in. That aside, though, I found the Facebook page disturbing for a number of reasons (many that I haven't even mentioned here), but I continued to brush those concerns aside because it's just a Facebook page after all. Then, a few weeks ago, someone on the Facebook page asked for confirmation from those who had used the program throughout high school, because she had seen mixed reviews about the upper levels of CC. Because of my recent misgivings, I asked if she would share links to those reviews and I started reading them. I also decided to search online to see if I could get a sense of where the money went. The only information I could find was the article I previously linked for you (and others referencing that article). In addition, I emailed my son's tutor to see if she did keep all the tuition money and that's when I found out that she does not.

I don't really think she's taking advantage of anyone. It's clear that CC is meeting a need among Christian homeschoolers. My question is whether this is a company I'm comfortable supporting.

---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

I think there is some miscommunication.

The only reason schools were mentioned is:

CC CEO stated the reason that CC isn't a non-profit company is that non-profit companies are subject to gov't interference in matters of religion. And it was pointed out that that many faith-based non-profits, like schools, don't have the gov't interfering in what they teach.

If asked why CC isn't a non-profit, why give that false information? Why not just say, "CC is our family's work, the business is how we support our family." :shrug

Maybe there's an explanation that makes sense.

I have friends who have started non-profits. It's not that hard. If you're running something big like CC you use an attorney and a tax accountant. Maybe they advised them to be a for-profit for specific reasons. But those reasons wouldn't be to avoid gov't interference in teaching matters of faith/religion.

Just to clarify, the CEO didn't give that reason. I was given this reason from the director of my community.

[Soliloquy]

Then you for the correction.

[mommylove]

Thanks for sharing your history; I could not figure out what you were trying to say, so this helps a ton!

I can't think of anything helpful to add at this point. :hug

[MissusLeata]

CC is a tutoring service . It's a classical, Christian tutoring service, but it *is* a tutoring service. I'm contracted with them and see no reason that it should be a not-for-profit company.

I work 3-4 hours a week and get payed plenty for it. My children get plenty for what I pay for them to be there. No tutoring service is going to work for every family.

Not everyone wants a classical education and not everyone who does wants to do it in that type of a community. Some people love it, others hate it (and some of that depends on the director of the local community.)

And while someone may not want to support a business where someone is getting rich (aren't most businesses like that?), I don't think there's anything immoral about the set up. Someone has to put in a lot more work than I do because it's a pretty great program and I don't do very much. :-)

I've heard people complain that Scripture is used incorrectly in the program, but that's not been my experience at my campus. I'm sure it happens at some campuses but I don't know if that's the director's doing or if it comes from higher up the chain. But it doesn't happen at all campuses.

[Soliloquy]

No one has said there is anything wrong with making a profit or people who start/run a company getting rich. :no

[melliethepooh]

This conversation is reminiscent of the GCMpocalypse last year :shifty am I the only one thinking that?

[attachmom]

This conversation is reminiscent of the GCMpocalypse last year :shifty am I the only one thinking that?

So what's that supposed to mean? I'm not on here much and chose not to spend much time trying to figure out what happened then.

[sweetpeasmommy]

I suspect it means in regard to the financial stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Soliloquy]

This conversation is reminiscent of the GCMpocalypse last year :shifty am I the only one thinking that?

I don't see it. She's just trying to decide if CC is still a company she wants to support with her business.

[attachmom]

I think I'll just exit this thread. Thanks to all of you who were willing to help me sort this out. I appreciate it.

[Soliloquy]

Please, ladies. Let's be kind with our words. There are ways we can phrase things to seek greater understanding rather than to attack a position we don't understand. And we will not always agree.

Melliethepooh and attachmom, if the two of you need to talk, I suggest you take it to PM.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

I think I'll just exit this thread. Thanks to all of you who were willing to help me sort this out. I appreciate it.


Would you like me to lock it?

[attachmom]

I'll leave it up to you. It doesn't matter to me.

[Leslie]

Thank you for starting this. This has been an interesting conversation; I appreciate the opportunity to think out loud and clarify some of my own thoughts. It's not something I'd ever really thought much about before.

[mellifera]

I have appreciated this conversation. We looked into Classical Conversations, but decided against it because of its MLM feel. I think that its main advantage is that it keeps coop members from being too flaky. If you have $600+ sunk into your coop, you are much less likely to skip days or not prepare. I thought that it was too much to pay for tutors who may or may not have any idea what they are talking about. I can do that myself. :giggle

[Garland]

:popcorn

I'm just starting to look into CC. :cup