Tooth remineralization/dental caries

[Psyche]

Ugh. I know this has been covered but I'm pretty sure Jon has a dental carie (cary?). I read that increasing fat soluble vitamins can help, a grain free diet as well. I know xylitol can help too. I'm going to brush his teeth more.

I'm either going to make my own xylitol and essential oil tooth powder or buy some paste if I can find one with high enough xylitol.

Should I consider fluoride free? Would probiotics help? Clay?

[attachmom]

My ds (7 at the time) has deep crevices in his molars, and recently developed three caries. I decided to hold off on fillings and see what we could do at home. Each night after brushing his teeth, he began chewing a small amount of xylitol, then rinsing with a fluoride rinse. I was unsure about using the fluoride, but felt like it was likely to be beneficial. When my son returned to the dentist, we were told that his cavities were "arrested" and no longer needed to be filled. The dentist was very surprised and said that they almost never see that happen. I thought I'd let you know what worked for us. I hope you're able to have the same success with whatever you choose to try.

[Psyche]

What form did you get the xylitol in? The crystals?

[marigold]

I want to hang out here for some info too as me dd was just diagnosed with a bunch of cavities and thin enamel in other places :sad :sighI got xylitol toothpaste for the am, and I gave in and finally got some fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash for the evening but if there is more I could be doing to rectify the situation I'd like to know.

[StumblinMama]

If you aren't opposed to flouride, google "Dr. Ellie".

[mamacat]

people have had great success with butter oil and fish oil caps.Using coconut oil in your tooth brushing mixture is also supposed to be very helpful as well as swishing with it like a mouth wash

[milkdud]

My middle's decay was extensive enough that the dentist wanted to pull 4 of his front teeth. Adding in fermented cod liver and high vitamin butter oil helped. Ultimately, removing all grains and severely limiting fruits, sweeteners and nuts is what was necessary. A 5th tooth that was starting to decay, has remineralized completely after the changes.

If you've not read Ramiel Nagel's, Cure Tooth Decay Naturally, I highly recommend it. The kindle version is only $10 and can be read with the kindle ap downloaded for free on the computer.

We brush with clay and sea salt, as suggested from the book. Topical tooth preventatives sound nice, but in order to fix the problem, you gotta fix the gut. Otherwise all the brushing and oral care everyone already does, would just work.

[Katigre]

I personally believe in the benefit of topical fluoride in rehardening enamel and would probably brush some of the act fluoride rinse on the spot 1-2x/day.

Xylitol is only effective if you get 6g/day so make sure he gets that much spaced out in 3-6 servings. I dissolve 4g in a cup of water and then give them gum/mints after meals to get that quota in.

How bad does the decay look? Which tooth is it on?

[mokamoto]

Subbing for more info.

[Psyche]

It's one spot smaller than the head of a straight pin I think in next to the pit of his one year molar. I should check the top too.

He had one spot that either remineralization or was a stain in the same tooth that the dentist wasn't concerned about six months ago

[crunchymum]

:cup

[marigold]

Ok, so we were to the children's dentist that the regular dentist referred us to yesterday. He looked in her mouth for a couple of minutes and said he wants to put stainless steel caps on ALL of her back teeth and a bunch of fillings in the front. Then I get out to the front where they are giving me the estimate and I look at it and there is another procedure listed. I ask about it and the receptionist says "Oh, it's no big deal it is just alike a little baby root canal":ph:banghead :mutter :mutter Is it just me our does this sound totally excessive.
Disclaimer : I have never had a cavity in my life and haven't gone since I graduated highschool because I don't need to and they always charge you excessive amounts for every little thing.

---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

My middle's decay was extensive enough that the dentist wanted to pull 4 of his front teeth. Adding in fermented cod liver and high vitamin butter oil helped. Ultimately, removing all grains and severely limiting fruits, sweeteners and nuts is what was necessary. A 5th tooth that was starting to decay, has remineralized completely after the changes.

If you've not read Ramiel Nagel's, Cure Tooth Decay Naturally, I highly recommend it. The kindle version is only $10 and can be read with the kindle ap downloaded for free on the computer.

We brush with clay and sea salt, as suggested from the book. Topical tooth preventatives sound nice, but in order to fix the problem, you gotta fix the gut. Otherwise all the brushing and oral care everyone already does, would just work.

How long did it take to remineralize the 5th tooth? What do you eat that is affordable when you take out grains?

[mamacat]

Is this your 5 yr old and are these baby teeth? Hurting? Infected? peronsally if the first 2 answers are yes then would start doing the things that others have been talking of here to heal cavities and stop progression of.If it is a tooth causing pain would just pull before doing all that - she will start losing them fsairly soon anyway.One dc had a steel cap and it just wore away the healthy tooth above it

[marigold]

Yes this is my nearly 5 year old and there is no pain as of yet. When we left the dentist yesterday and got in the van she said to me in a puzzled and disappointed voice "But, they didn't fix my cavities"
As fas as the steel wearing the other teeth away he wants to cap all of the molars top and bottom but I am concerned that the caps will just make it harder to clean and thus more likely to have cavities.

[mamacat]

That sounds like a whole lot of expense for a child who will be losing those teeth soon anyway.Are you open to having her use the xylitol and some of the other things suggested here?Are the molars so bad she cant chew properly?cant see putting caps on every molar at all.

[marigold]

Nope, no pain at all. I am researching the stuff above, but some of it would be pretty costly and that is the problem. I can do zylitol I know they have some at the local health store, I'm looking into the tooth powder and fermented cod liver oil. The web site of Remi Nagel mentioned above doesn't give you all the info b/c they want you to buy the book and some of the Dr Ellie items are only available in the states :( I did find this though that is kind of encouraging. Link broken b/c I'm not sure what is all on the site :
http://www.mommypotamus.com/can-a-weston-a-price-diet-reverse-tooth-decay/
As they say pictures are worth a thousand words.:thumbsup

[Katigre]

Ok, so we were to the children's dentist that the regular dentist referred us to yesterday. He looked in her mouth for a couple of minutes and said he wants to put stainless steel caps on ALL of her back teeth and a bunch of fillings in the front. Then I get out to the front where they are giving me the estimate and I look at it and there is another procedure listed. I ask about it and the receptionist says "Oh, it's no big deal it is just alike a little baby root canal":ph:banghead :mutter :mutter Is it just me our does this sound totally excessive.
Disclaimer : I have never had a cavity in my life and haven't gone since I graduated highschool because I don't need to and they always charge you excessive amounts for every little thing.[COLOR="Silver"]
Seek a 2nd opinion for that much recommended work. When you look in her mouth do you see extensive decay on her teeth? I would not agree to any work without seeing another dentist - the philosophy can range from 'drill and fill every little spot' to 'wait and see how things progress/don't progress'.

How long did it take to remineralize the 5th tooth? What do you eat that is affordable when you take out grains?
Taking out grains will up your grocery budget by at least 30% if not more. Ours has gone up by several hundred per month. That's how subsidized/cheap grains are for eating - but it doesn't meant they're the healthiest option :no. If you are committed to taking out grains/processed foods/refined sugar just know that it is NOT a cheap solution (but it is a healthy solution). It's definitely a 'count the cost' type of thing IMO and a lifestyle committment.

Tooth remineralization takes 6 months-2 years (enamel will not grow back, but the teeth can reharden. You won't be able to tell visually necessarily if this has occurred but a dental exam would reveal hard teeth instead of teeth with soft/sticky spots).

Is this your 5 yr old and are these baby teeth? Hurting? Infected? peronsally if the first 2 answers are yes then would start doing the things that others have been talking of here to heal cavities and stop progression of.If it is a tooth causing pain would just pull before doing all that - she will start losing them fsairly soon anyway.One dc had a steel cap and it just wore away the healthy tooth above it
Molars won't be lost for 5-7 years on a five year old, so they're not teeth that will be lost 'very soon'. On a 5 year old the only teeth that will be lost in the next 2-3 years will be the front ones (the front 2-4 on both top and bottom).

Yes this is my nearly 5 year old and there is no pain as of yet. When we left the dentist yesterday and got in the van she said to me in a puzzled and disappointed voice "But, they didn't fix my cavities"
As fas as the steel wearing the other teeth away he wants to cap all of the molars top and bottom but I am concerned that the caps will just make it harder to clean and thus more likely to have cavities.
This is why a second opinion is vital before agreeing to any work. Not all cavities need immediate treatment, ESPECIALLY if you are taking steps to halt the decay and change the envirionment of her mouth (grain/sugar reduction, xylitol, fluoride, etc...). They should be watched, but even our dentist who is more interventive than I prefer told me not to worry about DS's top front teeth that developed decay between them (long story related to a prior tooth injury that weakened them) b/c he'll lose them in the next 6-12 months.

Nope, no pain at all. I am researching the stuff above, but some of it would be pretty costly and that is the problem. I can do zylitol I know they have some at the local health store, I'm looking into the tooth powder and fermented cod liver oil. The web site of Remi Nagel mentioned above doesn't give you all the info b/c they want you to buy the book and some of the Dr Ellie items are only available in the states :( I did find this though that is kind of encouraging. Link broken b/c I'm not sure what is all on the site :
http://www.mommypotamus.com/can-a-weston-a-price-diet-reverse-tooth-decay/
As they say pictures are worth a thousand words.:thumbsup
The Dr. Ellie Protocal for kids is ONLY xylitol and the ACT fluoride rinse. The other products are for adults dealing with gum disease issues. If you want to halt decay in her mouth here is what I would do (this is especially important to address before she starts getting permanent teeth):

1. Lifestyle modifications: No constant snacking, only water to drink between meals (acidic drinks like juice are horrible for teeth), reduce grain/sugar consumption as those foster cavity-causing bacteria.

2. Tooth remineralization: Fluoride toothpaste, Fluoride mouth rinse every night before bed (this lets it sit on the teeth through the night so make a hard 'no drinking after fluoride rinse' rule for maximum effectivness). Xylitol helps with remineralization too but I'll write more in #3.

3. Xylitol: She needs 6g/day for it to change the bacteria load in her mouth and promote tooth healing. Any less and it won't be effective, and it MUST be spread over at least 3-5 exposures. Some strategies:
- Get the granules (looks like sugar) and dissolve 1 1/2 tsp (6g) in a small cup of water. After each time she eats have her take a sip.
- Get the gum with 1g of xylitol per piece or the mints with 1g of xylitol per 2 pieces and have her chew after each time she eats
- Do a combination of the above to ensure she gets 6g (she doesn't need more than that - more does NOT = better with xylitol, you don't want to get more than 10g/day). I've found doing 1 tsp in water plus a few pieces of gums what helps DS get what he needs.

4. Tooth brushing habits: If you can get a Sonicare Kids or other quality electric toothbrush this will help, especially b/c it has the timer so they brush longer. You should be going over her teeth twice a day to ensure that all three surfaces (front of teeth, inside of teeth, and top of biting surfaces) are well-brushed.

[marigold]

Seek a 2nd opinion for that much recommended work. When you look in her mouth do you see extensive decay on her teeth? I would not agree to any work without seeing another dentist - the philosophy can range from 'drill and fill every little spot' to 'wait and see how things progress/don't progress'.
Yes, this dentist was being very proactive. He said we might as well do all this stuff so we aren't back again next year.

Taking out grains will up your grocery budget by at least 30% if not more. Ours has gone up by several hundred per month. That's how subsidized/cheap grains are for eating - but it doesn't meant they're the healthiest option :no. If you are committed to taking out grains/processed foods/refined sugar just know that it is NOT a cheap solution (but it is a healthy solution). It's definitely a 'count the cost' type of thing IMO and a lifestyle committment.
This is going to take a lot of research. My MIL is celiac and we live with them so there is some gf cooking around here but nothing like the kind of grains reduction required to remineralize teeth. Does grain include things like rice, and ancient grains like quinoa? Mr Nagel's website seems to only be talking about the more commonly proceesed ones like wheat and oats?

Tooth remineralization takes 6 months-2 years (enamel will not grow back, but the teeth can reharden. You won't be able to tell visually necessarily if this has occurred but a dental exam would reveal hard teeth instead of teeth with soft/sticky spots).
They don't even seem to be sooft just brown. I poked them with a toothpick and she said it didn't hurt.

This is why a second opinion is vital before agreeing to any work. Not all cavities need immediate treatment, ESPECIALLY if you are taking steps to halt the decay and change the envirionment of her mouth (grain/sugar reduction, xylitol, fluoride, etc...). They should be watched, but even our dentist who is more interventive than I prefer told me not to worry about DS's top front teeth that developed decay between them (long story related to a prior tooth injury that weakened them) b/c he'll lose them in the next 6-12 months.
Yeah, my dd we are looking at about 18 months

The Dr. Ellie Protocal for kids is ONLY xylitol and the ACT fluoride rinse. The other products are for adults dealing with gum disease issues. If you want to halt decay in her mouth here is what I would do (this is especially important to address before she starts getting permanent teeth):

1. Lifestyle modifications: No constant snacking, only water to drink between meals (acidic drinks like juice are horrible for teeth), reduce grain/sugar consumption as those foster cavity-causing bacteria.

2. Tooth remineralization: Fluoride toothpaste, Fluoride mouth rinse every night before bed (this lets it sit on the teeth through the night so make a hard 'no drinking after fluoride rinse' rule for maximum effectivness). Xylitol helps with remineralization too but I'll write more in #3.

3. Xylitol: She needs 6g/day for it to change the bacteria load in her mouth and promote tooth healing. Any less and it won't be effective, and it MUST be spread over at least 3-5 exposures. Some strategies:
- Get the granules (looks like sugar) and dissolve 1 1/2 tsp (6g) in a small cup of water. After each time she eats have her take a sip.
- Get the gum with 1g of xylitol per piece or the mints with 1g of xylitol per 2 pieces and have her chew after each time she eats
- Do a combination of the above to ensure she gets 6g (she doesn't need more than that - more does NOT = better with xylitol, you don't want to get more than 10g/day). I've found doing 1 tsp in water plus a few pieces of gums what helps DS get what he needs.

4. Tooth brushing habits: If you can get a Sonicare Kids or other quality electric toothbrush this will help, especially b/c it has the timer so they brush longer. You should be going over her teeth twice a day to ensure that all three surfaces (front of teeth, inside of teeth, and top of biting surfaces) are well-brushed.

Thanks so much I will try to get going on this as quickly as I can.

[mamacat]

I havent done the butter oil/fish oil caps because of cost but truth is what would yu be paying out of pocket for all of these bandaid temp fix ideas at dentist?

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

child is already 5 so I consider teeth that can be lost from 5 - 7 yrs vewry soon,If iyt was a 2 yr old then would be another matter..........

[milkdud]

The book says to eliminate all grains, even ancient. It also says that tooth damage can begin to heal within 72h of implementation of the protocol. It's all based on what the ADA was founded on, btw.

It also talks about the dangers of putting metal in the mouth, root canals and the like. It's a very easy, quick read and I think you would really benefit from it.

Yes, going grain free is a hit in the food budget, however, it's not been that much for us. It eliminated convenience foods almost completely and eating out, too. Once those savings were factored in, we're about where we were before changing our diet.

For us, it came down to spending thousands in dental work, that may or may not work and could lead to other work needing to be done, or being proactive. Crowns, and root canals are not without risk and aren't guaranteed to prevent further problems. My oldest has a SS crown and I wish I'd read the book beforehand, bc I'd have opted to have the tooth pulled instead.

A sign the tooth decay has stopped, is if it turns black. Brown means it is still sticky and bacteria are still causing damage.

[marigold]

I havent done the butter oil/fish oil caps because of cost but truth is what would yu be paying out of pocket for all of these bandaid temp fix ideas at dentist?..
You are so right! They want to charge us over $3000 for all of this. :dohand we don't have the extra insurance to cover it so it would all be out of pocket. I would rather spend my money on fixing the teeth than doing al sorts of funky things that only treat the syptoms and from what I've read can lead to more things later on. It sounds a lot like interventions in labour, a slipper slope. :yes

The book says to eliminate all grains, even ancient. It also says that tooth damage can begin to heal within 72h of implementation of the protocol. It's all based on what the ADA was founded on, btw.

It also talks about the dangers of putting metal in the mouth, root canals and the like. It's a very easy, quick read and I think you would really benefit from it.

Yes, going grain free is a hit in the food budget, however, it's not been that much for us. It eliminated convenience foods almost completely and eating out, too. Once those savings were factored in, we're about where we were before changing our diet.

For us, it came down to spending thousands in dental work, that may or may not work and could lead to other work needing to be done, or being proactive. Crowns, and root canals are not without risk and aren't guaranteed to prevent further problems. My oldest has a SS crown and I wish I'd read the book beforehand, bc I'd have opted to have the tooth pulled instead.

A sign the tooth decay has stopped, is if it turns black. Brown means it is still sticky and bacteria are still causing damage.
Yes, my daughter's cavities are quite brown. I'm getting my dh to by me an e-copy of the book. I need all the info laid out in front of me, not scattered across 10 different pages on the internet. Hopefully he has time tonight.

[mamacat]

we havent change diet completely :-/ but adding the nutrients and doing the xylitol has helped my dds teeth recover - they look so much better and what decay she has left is totally black .Having a root canal done can actually crack the roots as they are scraping them out and cause a setup for infection and then you have to have the tooth extracted anyway after the thousands and pain spent on root canal and crown - BTDT for an adult tooth of my own before knew there was something else to try.

[Mum2Es]

Reviving an old thread as I've been told I have to get a cavity filled (my first!) and I'll go to any lengths to prevent that happening!

1. Lifestyle modifications: No constant snacking, only water to drink between meals (acidic drinks like juice are horrible for teeth), reduce grain/sugar consumption as those foster cavity-causing bacteria.

2. Tooth remineralization: Fluoride toothpaste, Fluoride mouth rinse every night before bed (this lets it sit on the teeth through the night so make a hard 'no drinking after fluoride rinse' rule for maximum effectivness). Xylitol helps with remineralization too but I'll write more in #3.

3. Xylitol: She needs 6g/day for it to change the bacteria load in her mouth and promote tooth healing. Any less and it won't be effective, and it MUST be spread over at least 3-5 exposures. Some strategies:
- Get the granules (looks like sugar) and dissolve 1 1/2 tsp (6g) in a small cup of water. After each time she eats have her take a sip.
- Get the gum with 1g of xylitol per piece or the mints with 1g of xylitol per 2 pieces and have her chew after each time she eats
- Do a combination of the above to ensure she gets 6g (she doesn't need more than that - more does NOT = better with xylitol, you don't want to get more than 10g/day). I've found doing 1 tsp in water plus a few pieces of gums what helps DS get what he needs.

4. Tooth brushing habits: If you can get a Sonicare Kids or other quality electric toothbrush this will help, especially b/c it has the timer so they brush longer. You should be going over her teeth twice a day to ensure that all three surfaces (front of teeth, inside of teeth, and top of biting surfaces) are well-brushed.

Re 1. I already only drink water and green tea. Does anyone know if green tea is ok?

Re 2. There is fluoride in the tap water here in Australia, and all our toothpaste is fluoridated (Sp!!). Is that sufficient?

Re 3. Is 6g of xylitol a children's dose or would it be the same for an adult? I have no idea where to source it but I'll find out!

Re the grains issue, I'm already on a low grains diet but I do eat some. I eat a small amount of oats at breakfast time, and usually 1 slice of grain bread with my lunch, plus the occasional baked treat or crackers or similar. Would I have to cut grains out COMPLETELY to do any good? I really don't think that would be possible for me.

The confusing thing for me is that in the last 2 years my diet/lifestyle has been drastically improved, with grains cut right back, coconut oil replacing other oils, and bad fats/processed sugars cut right back. Admittedly I haven't had my teeth checked for a couple of years, but why would I be getting a cavity now, when I've made all these changes for good?

[Katigre]

Bbl when not on phone

Sent from Katigre's Galaxy S3

[marigold]

Reviving an old thread as I've been told I have to get a cavity filled (my first!) and I'll go to any lengths to prevent that happening!



Re 1. I already only drink water and green tea. Does anyone know if green tea is ok?

Re 2. There is fluoride in the tap water here in Australia, and all our toothpaste is fluoridated (Sp!!). Is that sufficient?

Re 3. Is 6g of xylitol a children's dose or would it be the same for an adult? I have no idea where to source it but I'll find out!

Re the grains issue, I'm already on a low grains diet but I do eat some. I eat a small amount of oats at breakfast time, and usually 1 slice of grain bread with my lunch, plus the occasional baked treat or crackers or similar. Would I have to cut grains out COMPLETELY to do any good? I really don't think that would be possible for me.

The confusing thing for me is that in the last 2 years my diet/lifestyle has been drastically improved, with grains cut right back, coconut oil replacing other oils, and bad fats/processed sugars cut right back. Admittedly I haven't had my teeth checked for a couple of years, but why would I be getting a cavity now, when I've made all these changes for good?

Re.2 = For dd we just use fluoridated mouthwash almost all toothpaste has glycerin, which (according to Mr.Nagel of "Cure Tooth Decay") coats the teeth and prevents mineral absorption into the teeth. Also watch out for it in xylitol gum. For teeth we got some tooth powder, which is quite bitter and tends to make the mouth quite dry and Spry infant xylitol tooth gel, which the kids love. xlear.com
Re: 3 xylitol is available locally at the health food stores, we get the tooth gel there as well as mints and assorted candies and the xylitol powder too.
www.xlear.com (http://www.xlear.com) is the spry xylitol line
candies are www.drjohns.com (http://www.drjohns.com)
Re: grains, seeds and nuts. If you wish to continue eating them they need to be soaked/soured to remove the phytic acid which bonds to minerals in your intestines and renders them very difficult for your body to absorb and thus use. some people have success with healing cavities without altering their diet except to add the fermented cod liver oil. Our dd'd teeth are quite bed so I've personally found it easier to just cut them for now. This weekend I tried soaking and then dehydrating some nuts. It seemed to work so I'll do that a while longer before I work on another new skill.
Also get the fermented cod liver oil if you can, it is loaded in fat soluble vitamins and essential fatty acids that your body needs to rebuild itself. Fermentation is important b/c modern heat processing of cod liver oil takes out all the vit and minerals and then they are add back the synthetic versions to standardized amounts. As far as I know Green Pasture's is the only company that sells the fermented cod liver oil. My kids all jump up and down to take the cinnamon flavour in the morning :giggle

[Katigre]

I replied to your other thread with this link: http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showthread.php?t=461091&highlight=closys