bribery/incentive/natural consequences

[Sonata]

Our son (3 on Sunday, but he emotionally hit 3 about 6 weeks ago!) has been full of tantrums and empty of cooperativeness lately. This question isn't really about the tantrums, but just to give you background, he is having 2-4 tantrums a day, that last from 10 minutes to over an hour (not including little things!). So we're tired parents.

He also is refusing to transition, pushing boundaries, and not following routines. My husband is desperate to get him to do SOMETHING and I think has been leaning too hard towards what could be bribery, and what are definitely empty threats. I haven't said anything about it, because I understand how desperate he's feeling, and frankly I don't have anything else that actually works with E right now. I will also say that DH has a naturally very calm personality, and has been amazing with dealing with all the craziness calmly and positively; he has never even been rough with handling DS, or raised his voice (although it does get a little snappy some times). That's how I am too; we're a very calm family. Except for Crazy Boy, of course! ;)

So I will try and describe an example, but it is just an example.

The threats are things like "we're going to get into the car and drive to Gramcy's, you can put on your shoes and come or you're staying here by yourself!" (as DS is running away and screaming and going limp, not just not wanting shoes on)

The bribery is things like our bedtime routine, which DH is usually in charge of. We have had the same bedtime routine for a LONG time and we do everything every night, so Emerson has no incentive to protest about it, but he does. Every. Single. Thing. He has to use his stool to climb up onto the counter, and screams and hits when DH takes it away (so he can reach him). He has to do two inhalers, but he wants to do them "silly ways" (that wouldn't involve actually getting the medicine!) and throws a fit if anyone else shakes them or pushes the button. He won't open his mouth to brush teeth. He spits the water all over himself instead of drinking it. He runs wildly around the house when it's time to go potty and throws a fit if someone else dumps the pee in the toilet. He squirms away and jumps on the bed while we put on night-time-diaper and pajamas. Etc etc etc.

He loves his chewable vitamins, so DH has started saving them till bedtime, and getting them out so DS can see. Then, if he throws fits, he takes them away one by one. This kind of seems like a good idea, but it is kind of starting to get all about the vitamins. Logical consequences (in my mind) are that the longer it takes DS to get ready, then he doesn't have time to read books, because lights-off is at the same time.... but that's still pretty abstract. To get Emerson through anything, DH has started saying "we'll do X" or "have Y" after you finish this. None of these are big things that he wouldn't normally have (not candy, toys), but it's becoming a lot of little bribes.

Dh has also started threatening time-outs. We sometimes do something that resembles a time-out: "if you want to scream, you can do it in your room with the door closed" or "if you are hitting people, it means you want to be by yourself and you can go to your room." I try and phrase it as a logical consequence of something he is doing that is inappropriate to do together, and I let him choose when to come out (when he has decided to stop hitting, for instance) which is usually instantly, which is okay. I think I make it a consequence, not a punishment, but DH is feeling desperate and just threatening a punishment.



So.... I don't think that anything DH is doing is REALLY bad, but it just doesn't quite sit right with me. But maybe E's current level of insanity means we relax our responses a little, and drop the extreme measures when he is acting less extreme? I also really don't want to undermine DH, as I like/need all the help I can get!

Thoughts?

[Waterlogged]

We're using "You can do it by yourself, or we will help you" a lot around here with 2.75yo dd.

"You can walk up the stairs, or I will carry you."

"You can put your pants on by yourself, or I will help you."

The hard part sometimes is following through on helping - it's not super fun to wrestle pants on her, but necessary if we want to leave the house. ;) And it's gotta be something we can actually help her do - we can't help her talk, or poop, or pee. :giggle

Our bedtime is super short - would shortening it help at all?

[ArmsOfLove]

very very typical age-expected behavior :yes

I would encourage you to read the 3yo sticky and Ames and Ilg's "Your 3 Year Old" (though skip the small amount of discipline suggested :rolleyes)

Set him up for success; create a rhythm for the day that is structured and moves him from one familiar activity to the next.

You don't have to take his freak outs personal and you don't have to get caught up in the emotion :hug Playful parenting is super helpful with my children at these ages.:rockon

[klpmommy]

being playful is huge here at 3.

R is still not that verbal, but he responds well to choices like "do you want to walk or rise in the cart". specific choices are best

I chased him around with a clean diaper on my head today. We both laughed. Much better than getting angry about it.

3s also like control. fussy babe, i;ll type more tomorrow

[hotnostril]

I don't think you should relax. It's all about testing the boundaries.

I handled this stage by being silly, trying to make it fun and plain old logic.

The whole bed time issue going on right now...not really an issue. The choices are rather simple. The boy won't die if he doesn't brush his teeth. I would calmly explain before even going into the bathroom to brush teeth how it's going to go down. The choice is either do it right or go to bed with dirty teeth. OR I'd stick him in the tub and let him spill water all over himself until the cows came home. He could brush them in there if that would make him happy.

Go to bed without pjs and new clean diaper...again he won't die.

Let him dump the pee.

Putting shoes on, nothing to fight about. Either put them on or don't. I'll bring them along incase you change your mind.

edited to add. My kids love a bath with bubbles, I tossed a few glow sticks in the tub ( buy in bulk super cheap online) turned off the lights. Oh so relaxing even for the most tireless of children determined to have their last hurrah before bed.

[Sonata]

We're using "You can do it by yourself, or we will help you" a lot around here with 2.75yo dd.

"You can walk up the stairs, or I will carry you."

"You can put your pants on by yourself, or I will help you."


Our bedtime is super short - would shortening it help at all?

Questions like that helped a lot for a while, but they don't work any more. I used it ALL the time (successfully) from maybe 2.25 to 2.75. Now he just says "NO!!!!" to either option and throws a fit if I try to make him. I mean, I DO make him, but it isn't a tantrum-avoider any more. I don't know if he outgrew them, or just one thing only works for so long. :rolleyes

Our bedtime routine is super short, too: just brush teeth, wash face, inhalers, pee, and nighttime clothes. Then we read books and cuddle, which he doesn't protest. At least, it would be short if there weren't a big fight at every stage!


Set him up for success; create a rhythm for the day that is structured and moves him from one familiar activity to the next.

You don't have to take his freak outs personal and you don't have to get caught up in the emotion :hug Playful parenting is super helpful with my children at these ages.:rockon

We have a very structured day. He goes to pre-school 5 mornings a week, so we have a very clear routine of getting ready in the morning and coming home in the afternoon, leading to dinner and bed.

I don't take it personally; I know his behavior is very normal -- and for that matter, I kind of remember acting like that myself as a little kid, so I guess I deserve it! I'm just so worn out by the end of the day....

being playful is huge here at 3.

R is still not that verbal, but he responds well to choices like "do you want to walk or rise in the cart". specific choices are best

I chased him around with a clean diaper on my head today. We both laughed. Much better than getting angry about it.


We use choices like that all the time, and it usually really helps. We even give him choices like "we have to do inhaler now. You can do it the cooperating way when you follow the doctor's instructions, or I can hold you down and do it the fighting way." It's not such a fun choice, but it's the truth! Also a lot of "if you run away from me, then it means you are choosing to ride in the cart where I can keep you safe." If he's just feeling a little contrary, he usually chooses the positive choice. I can tell our firmness about this averts a lot of tantrums! You'll see him pout his lips and bunch up his shoulders ready to yell "no," but he knows we WILL put him in his seat or hold him down for his inhaler, and he'll decide to go along with it!

But if he's really angry or upset, he will just yell "NOO!!!!" to all the choices.


The whole bed time issue going on right now...not really an issue. The choices are rather simple. The boy won't die if he doesn't brush his teeth. I would calmly explain before even going into the bathroom to brush teeth how it's going to go down. The choice is either do it right or go to bed with dirty teeth. OR I'd stick him in the tub and let him spill water all over himself until the cows came home. He could brush them in there if that would make him happy.

Go to bed without pjs and new clean diaper...again he won't die.

Let him dump the pee.

Putting shoes on, nothing to fight about. Either put them on or don't. I'll bring them along incase you change your mind.



You're right about explaining what is going to happen next; I do this sometimes and it really helps. I do it more for special situations (like being in church) but it could help to add it in for daily routines.... that like AOL pointed out, help get us through the day.

Occasionally I let us skimp on brushing teeth (usually meaning I let him do it himself) but I'm not going to let him skip it every night. Actually, inhaler is a bigger argument, and there is no question that he needs that. I'm not going to let him have a bath at bedtime -- it takes way too long, and would be a huge fight to get him out. Baths have always been exciting, not a calm-down, for him.

I DO let him dump the pee, but sometimes when he has gone on to playing on his own I see it there and dump it myself. Sometimes he doesn't care, but sometimes he throws a royal fit and demands that I "get it back out" of the toilet!

Skipping a diaper is SO not an option! ;) He is daytime potty-trained, so he isn't wearing a diaper already, but he always pees a bucket in the middle of the night.... and he's sleeping in our bed! Getting that diaper on is a must! :giggle


A bunch of you have mentioned playful parenting. I use that some, but it's not my natural way of interacting. Maybe I will check out the book and see if there are any specific suggestions. It looks like I've got a good reading list now! :ty

[MomtoJGJ]

I'd keep doing how you are doing with the teeth and inhaler... I'd get rid of the potty and have him use the toilet... and I'd hope for the best with the diaper ;) My youngest currently doesn't like diapers. She's daytime trained completely and only wets at night a couple of times a month if that, but there is absolutely no telling when that will be, and since I don't have a waterproof thing on her mattress she wears a diaper (I know, I could get a waterproof thing) .... some nights I try to bribe her, some nights I try to playfully get it on her somehow, and other nights I'm just tired and ready for her to go to bed, so I just hold her down and put it on and try to console her after the fact.

Honestly, I'd try to steer clear of empty threats. From experience with my older three they remember EVERYTHING, so if you can't follow through they know it. I make sure at 3 to say what I mean and mean what I say. I also do not mind bribes at all :shifty if it works, go for it!!

[Annainprogress]

See one thing about bribes is there's a lot of debate on what is a bribe. I did one parenting course 4 years ago where they said a bribe is something you give before the expected behaviour whereas a reward is given after the expected behaviour.

I do a lot of "you can do it yourself or I can help you" and I then count to 3 to give time for the decision to be made. I also leave things like shoes or even getting dressed to the last minute if DD isn't in a cooperative mood - often I need to be ready enough to keep hold of her so she doesn't take what I've just got on her off again.... Distraction sometimes works but not always. fake guessing often makes her laugh and calls her down/distracts her - e.g. "so is this your shoe?" holding up a vest "oh it must be your skirt then" until she giggles or sighs and tells me or I "correctly" guess on 3rd or 4th try. then she may cooperate with actually getting it on

[saturnfire16]

Our bedtime routine is super short, too: just brush teeth, wash face, inhalers, pee, and nighttime clothes. Then we read books and cuddle, which he doesn't protest. At least, it would be short if there weren't a big fight at every stage!

Can you mix it up? Maybe now is the time to start a new routine. How about brushing teeth right after dinner?






Skipping a diaper is SO not an option! ;) He is daytime potty-trained, so he isn't wearing a diaper already, but he always pees a bucket in the middle of the night.... and he's sleeping in our bed! Getting that diaper on is a must! :giggle

Can you sneak it on after he falls asleep?

[Sparrow]

When Max throws a fit after we reflect, we let him cry for a few. He doesn't like to be consoled. It usually escalates to full blown kicking the cupboards etc. At that point I carry him to our room and put him on our bed. I tell him "When you are done crying you can come out for a hug"

The first few times he screamed and trashed the bed. Then he'd cry a bit. We've reached a point where we hardly need to do this anymore.

Most of his tantrums are triggered around being told "no" or "not yet"

I find that rephrasing helps to set him up for success "we can watch curious george after we eat dinner, you can have a cookie after you eat up your noodles"

And for the shoe thing - I would make sure I loaded up the car first, including his shoes. He was given a warning. Then I'd pick him up and carry him to the car. No biggie for me to not have shoes on in the car.

Another option, if you can, is make shoes part of getting dressed.

[natural_mama]

I found with DS1 that around 3 he went through a major growth spurt and was constantly overtired due to that which then equalled constant tantrum-ing. Sounds alot like the behaviour your DS is showing. We did enforced naps, stuck to the boundaries and rode it out.

DH resorts to empty threats when we're going through more difficult 'stages' too but yeah it doesn't work coz when they call your bluff then you look like an idiot :yes

We do what Sparrow said too with rephrasing i.e DS1 'I WANT ICECREAM' Mama 'Yep good idea, we'll have some icecream after dinner. What flavour will you choose?/Will you have a cone or a bowl?' rather than 'no eat your dinner'. Kinda takes the wind out of their sails coz you haven't given them anything to challenge, they have the opportunity to get what they want and you offer them something else to think about thats positive like how they'll have their icecream or what flavour they want. It also gives you extra leverage to say ok if you don't want to finish dinner thats your decision but this is how much you need to eat if you want icecream.

When we do the you can do this or I can help you I also find it helps to keep a constant patter of chatter going about what fun thing we're doing next. If its getting shoes on to go to the supermarket then I'll keep up a one-way conversation (over the hissy fit of whichever child I'm wrangling) about what we're going to buy. I'll talk about stuff guaranteed to catch their interest like 'hmm I wonder what flavour yoghurt sachets we'll get - sweet greek? blueberry? mmm they all sound so yummy and we love our yoghurt in our smoothies. Oooh and we should get some bananas for our smoothies too! What a good idea! And some ham for our sandwiches but not coleslaw aye because DS1 doesn't like coleslaw, no...' and in the end they get more interested in the fact that I'm finding my voice so much more interesting than their squarking or hear a word that appeals i.e smoothies that they shut-up lol I dunno how your DS would react but its a huge help round here even with DS2 whos not yet 2.

GL!

[bolt.]

I wonder if the boy is just plain tired and/or maxed-out...

Have you tried putting him to bed earlier? How many hours of sleep does he get?

How long has he been doing 5-morn-week preschool, and does it mesh with the timing of these behaviors? Is school 'hard' for him (over stimulating? requiring self-control? socially challenging?)

Has your weather gotten bad resulting in less gross motor activities (or less semi-limitless play that isn't good 'indoor' behaviour) in his day? Does that mesh with the onset of these challenges?

[RainbowMummy]

Could you let him skip brushing teeth every night if you brushed in the mornings instead? We actually have three different coloured tooth brushes for each child & say 'which colour brush will you choose tonight?' rather than 'lets go brush our teeth'

The pee dumping....he kind of sounds possessive of it...like you are taking away forever something that is his. is it possible he isn't getting enough chance to make choices during the day? & does he need a space (like a shelf) that is all his own where he can store what is special to him & he knows no one else with throw it out?

night diaper...can you change it an hour before bedtime? or once he is asleep?

Can you give medicine when he is tucked up in bed or snuggled on your lap? can you give it an hour before bedtime? half hour? maybe wear a silly hat each night while you do it or pull a different facial expression & get him to guess which one tonight? If something is a MUST maybe talk to him about during the day when he is calmer. Share with him what you feel if he doesn't take it...scared?worried? can't sleep cause you're thinking about him??

When my kids have gone through this stage I do a combination of;
- increasing areas where they do get a choice (in normal everyday life when they are calm)
- making sure the rules are not too numerous
- doing as little as possible at their tired end of the day. so..no late baths, pj's on & teeth brushed over an hour before bedtime if needed...at times this has even meant I've given a child 'dinner/tea' at 3pm & they have grazed on apple/carrot if hungry after that rather than expect them to sit & eat a full meal when tired & then settle to sleep while their tummy is still digesting.
- be cleverer than them. I'm years older than them so I can get often get them to do things without them even realising or even if/when they realise it's done in such a way that they will humour me anyway. It is much harder when you are tired so be kind to yourself...don't have so many situations that HAVE to happen. Throw the rule book out the window & go with the flow of your child. This stage will change any day! :hug2

[Sonata]

We do what Sparrow said too with rephrasing i.e DS1 'I WANT ICECREAM' Mama 'Yep good idea, we'll have some icecream after dinner. What flavour will you choose?/Will you have a cone or a bowl?' rather than 'no eat your dinner'. Kinda takes the wind out of their sails coz you haven't given them anything to challenge,

Hmm, my boy must be a very talented challenger, because I do (did!) this all the time and he became very adept and ferreting out the part that he didn't like and protesting it: "No, I want it RIGHT NOW! I want strawberry, in a cone, and I need it RIGHT NOW because I'm really hungry for ice cream and my tummy hurts RIGHT NOW!!"
"Do you want a cracker or some yogurt?)
"My tummy is hurtin' 'cuz it needs some ice cream. But I can only have it right now!"
:sh4

I like your idea about constant prattling. Some times by that stage I am just grimly trying to get us out the door!



I wonder if the boy is just plain tired and/or maxed-out...

Have you tried putting him to bed earlier? How many hours of sleep does he get?

How long has he been doing 5-morn-week preschool, and does it mesh with the timing of these behaviors? Is school 'hard' for him (over stimulating? requiring self-control? socially challenging?)

Has your weather gotten bad resulting in less gross motor activities (or less semi-limitless play that isn't good 'indoor' behaviour) in his day? Does that mesh with the onset of these challenges?

I think this is all true, but not easily changed. :scratch He probably doesn't sleep enough. He just stopped taking naps... he doesn't get tired until 4:30 or so, and if we let him sleep, he doesn't go to sleep at bedtime -- he probably ends up losing more sleep when he naps. When school starts up again, I am going to try and move our bedtime even earlier, which would be starting the routine at 6:30.... I'm not sure we'll be able to manage it, as DH will have to get home from work a little earlier, and I'll have to be super-prompt with dinner.

School is NOT over-stimulating (that's one of my big :tu about this school, that it is a very calm environment and they are very conscious of over-stimulation), but it is exhausting -- socially, needs more self-control, so much to do. Starting pre-school happened all of a sudden, and also right after I had surgery, so with no transition at all. So there's been a lot going on, which I know affects his behavior, so I am empathetic to his needs, but it doesn't mean he can break all our rules at home. We've talked about going to fewer days a week, but he really loves school and it seems like the most positive thing for him right now, so we're going to keep it. Other moms and teachers have told me that it takes 1-2 months to settle into the new routine, which would be about now; so I have hope that things might start to get a little easier after the break -- at least in regards to that.

We are an outside-in-rain-or-shine kind of family :yes5 and his school is too... although it's true we aren't out there as much as we are in the summer. I should work at getting us outside more.

In general, though, he is ALWAYS maxed out. It is how he runs himself. He is always going, going, going, leaping and playing and yelling and exploring; he always wants to go new places and see new people; and just goes and goes and goes until he crashes. He has always been that way, since he was a baby, and maybe it's just the way he is.

[MomtoJGJ]

You said something that caught my eye.... you said move bedtime earlier starting the routine at 6:30. That might be too late for him, especially with dropping nap. My kids all go to bed at 6-6:30... And by that I mean our routine is done and they are in bed with the lights off, Evie's asleep, and I'm kissing the others goodnight as they are fading out. And that's all four of mine. They sleep until they wake up in the mornings (allowed out of bed at 7, but they wake up when they wake up) and generally the three oldest wake up at about the same time... generally around 6:45. Evie would sleep until at least 7 if not 7:30 if the others weren't awake.

[Sonata]

I don't think I can possibly get it any earlier. DH can't get home from work any earlier, and we need to spend at least a little bit of time as a family on a daily basis. And DS takes 1.5 to 2 hours to get to sleep, longer if he's not worn out yet. I just can't manage starting bedtime by myself at 4 in the afternoon!!! :jawdrop:jawdrop:jawdrop



FWIW, he has never slept that much. At various times in his life, he's slept as much as he wanted (e.g., not awakening him), and it was always at the minimal end for his age range. He'll also sleep less for a few days, and then suddenly be really tired and sleep more all of a sudden. My attempts to regularize his schedule never work; his body just doesn't work that way!