I need a consequence, fast! SO angry!

[joyinthejourney]

My 5 yo son keeps eating whole tubes of child toothpaste (flouride free). He locked the door today while doing it, so he knows he's doing something wrong. I am SO angry!! I keep putting it up high in their bathroom closet, but dh forgets to put it up at night after teeth brushing.

I REALLY need some sort of consequence! I almost decided he can't have cookies at the holiday cookie party we're hosting today, since he's had enough sweets for the day in that toothpaste. But, that seems cruel, since hes been looking forward to this party for weeks, and lots of his friends will be here eating cookies. We were also going to decorate cookies today.

I am SO upset!

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

He also tried to lie about it.

[MarynMunchkins]

I would think that would upset his stomach. :sick

Honestly, just have him buy another tube of toothpaste. Talk to him about the ingredients and why it's not meant to be eaten and let him replace it. Try to keep it put up as much as possible.

:hug2 It's frustrating when kids destroy stuff.

[Domina]

:hug

Maybe when you're so angry isn't the best time to address it. I liked MnM's suggestion. If he's got birthday money, allowance money, etc. then he could use that to replace the toothpaste. And on the trip to the store, you can talk about safety issues, etc.


When my cousins and I ate toothpaste (around 5yo) my aunt told us it was made from bits of ground-up glass and it could cut our stomachs. That's a bit of a reach, but it scared us silly!


If he doesn't have any money, maybe he could do chores to "pay" for the toothpaste.

[joyinthejourney]

I'm not sure this buying the toothpaste idea (which I've already told him) is going to be very effective. Because, honestly, we never take money out of his bank, we only put it in, bc it's a pain to get it out and count all the coins, and he starts trying to pour them all over, while dd tries to eat them. He spends birthday and Christmas money right away. Prob not the best way to handle money, but he's so young, we really haven't thought it out any further. I think he's more excited about getting money out to make a purchase, and he's talking about the toys he'll get to buy next time he takes money out.

I'm very disturbed by the hiding and lying, not to mention the nonchalant attitude towards doing something wrong.

[Iarwain]

Perhaps having him earn the money to buy the toothpaste? Five is big enough to do some small chores. If that didn't get the point across the next natural consequence may be that you can no longer buy the yummy (and more expensive) kid toothpaste because it keeps getting wasted so he'll have to use something else that he doesn't like as well. Plain baking soda makes an effective flouride-free toothpaste that does not taste good at all.

[Domina]

Hiding and lying is pretty age-appropriate for 5. (Doesn't mean you don't address it, but it doesn't indicate your DS is headed for a life of crime, or anything like that!) :hug

Mine isn't 5 yet, so I have not BTDT. There are many wiser and more experienced mamas on the board. But responses I have often read for the "words as magic stage" is to...

1. Don't set him up to lie. Don't ask questions you already know the answer to, for example.

2. Focus on solving the problem. If he doesn't have a great idea of money, for example, then maybe give him some chores he can do to earn the toothpaste. Not in a punitive way, but just as a teaching thing. You can explain that adults have to go to work, to earn money for food and toothpaste, etc. and since he took more than he should, he needs to help replace it.

3. In a neutral moment, when you're not angry, talk to him about telling the truth and why it's important that you can trust him.

4. Make sure you're making it safe for him to tell the truth.

[WanderingJuniper]

Shadow you. He hid and liedthat would say to me that currently he cannot be trusted out of yoursight right now.

[CelticJourney]

This is a situation where the consequece/privilage matches the level or responsbility. Right now he is little and can't be responsible with the toothpaste, so he has to have you or your dh give it to him and watch him put it on the brush and then take it back. When he matures a little and is more responsible, he can have greater access.

[Iarwain]

The hiding and lying is normal for the age, btw. Infuriating but normal.

ETA - I see I'm a little slow with the reply button!

[joyinthejourney]

That sounds like an idea that would work (the bakin soda toothpaste idea). Thank you!

I am committed to GD, but this is the first time a spanking sounded like it might be the only consequence that would work. I think bc of the lying and hiding, and the not caring that he did something wrong. But, I KNOW that's not true, so I'm SO glad to have be able to come here for answers! Thanks for reply so quickly.

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

(...and I happen to be functioning on 3 hrs sleep today.)

[Allison]

I don't think the hiding and lying is so abnormal for a 5 year old. :shrug3

I think this one is on you and dh. You already knew he would eat it if it was within reach. Pro-activity is the best defense. You can't expect a 5 year old to resist an impulse if he thinks he can get away with it or be forthcoming about it if he sees you're mad.

I'd explain to him how toothpaste is not a food, shouldn't be swallowed and can make our tummy very sick if it is. I'd even make a game of it by pointing out things throughout the day and asking, "Food or not food?"

As for the lying and hiding I'd explain that if we feel the need to hide while doing something that it's probably the wrong thing to do and telling him that you understood he was fearful about telling the truth but that you will help him to fix his mistakes and figure out a way to make amends.

[Apple-Saucy]

When my kids wasted an entire tube of toothpaste they had to use a flavor they didn't like (they don't like minty things) not because I was punishing them but because that was all that was left in the house and I was not paying for another 4 dollar tube of Cherry bubble something or other. :shrug3

[Aisling]

Five isn't a naturally "honest" age...they're at the tail end of "words are magic", and, they're testing their independence. Getting all offended about a "lie" at this point is only going to teach him confusing lessons about himself and honesty in general.

Honestly, I'd act concerned, and let him know how toothpaste isn't food, and sit down and write a list of snack ideas for when he wants something fun in his mouth. I'd be *dead* serious about it, and I'd listen to his ideas with great interest, and then follow through with making them (and plenty of sensory experiences) available without a lot of begging.

Then, I'd lock up with toothpaste. :wink

[Aerynne]

My almost 5yo wouldn't be bothered by having to pay for anything. He thinks it's fun to earn money and pay for stuff.

I would quit buying toothpaste. And I would tell him why- if he can't be trusted not to eat it, then you can't have it in the house. Just brush his teeth with water. The flouride-free toothpaste doesn't really do anything anyway that brushing won't do (plus if it has glycerin in it it prevents teeth from remineralizing). Just make sure to do a good job. Or you could get Dr. Christopher's tooth powder- that's what we use, and believe me, he won't be tempted to eat it. None of my kids mind the taste, in fact they like it for brushing teeth, but it's just not tempting to eat powder.

[Katigre]

I would separate out the two issues:

1. Eating toothpaste

2. Lying/hiding

People have already given great ideas for how to handle the toothpaste eating - I like the idea of not getting anymore for awhile and using baking soda or something else natural in the house instead, because it's not safe to eat tubes of toothpaste and you won't keep eating them. The other option is that he's not allowed to brush his own teeth for awhile b/c you keep the toothpaste in your room somewhere inaccessible (this would need your DH's buy-in to not leave it around though).

For the lying/hiding I would talk about it very seriously - why people hide things they think might be wrong, how it is so important to tell mommy what *really* happened even when you feel scared, and I would also role-play it and have him redo you asking and him telling you so he gets used to walking through the scared feeling through to the other side of honesty. He's going to lie at 5 years old - but you can also teach him how to tell the truth and mentor him through that. When DS tells me something untrue, I have him redo the conversation with me so that he tells the truth.

Ex. I see wrappers from Zbars on my counter and realize that DS has eaten them without permission (he knows you can only have 1 per day and ate 2-3).

Me: "DS, please come here. There is a problem in the kitchen. What's going on here?"
DS: "DD ate those Zbars!!!" [I know this is not true b/c DD has been napping during the time they were eaten ;)]
Me: "That is not the truth. Please try again - it can be hard to tell the truth but it is very important and mommy loves when you tell me what really happened." [got that from the book NurtureShock - great chapter on lying]
DS: [silent while he thinks, I might go over and touch him to connect with him and let him know I want to help]
Me: Do you want me to help you know what to say?
DS: Yes
Me: When I ask "What's going on here?" you could say "Mommy, I ate the Zbars."
DS: (softly) "Mommy, I ate the Zbars."
Me: "Thank you for telling me the truth. Please throw away the wrappers. Since you ate 3 Zbars, that means you cannot have a Zbar tomorrow or the next day b/c you ate three days worth in a row. You can have a Zbar again on Friday." [DS understands calendars and math so this makes sense to him]
DS: Ok! Throws wrappers away and goes back to playing.

[WaitPatientlyOnTheLord]

When DS tells me something untrue, I have him redo the conversation with me so that he tells the truth.

Ex. I see wrappers from Zbars on my counter and realize that DS has eaten them without permission (he knows you can only have 1 per day and ate 2-3).

Me: "DS, please come here. There is a problem in the kitchen. What's going on here?"
DS: "DD ate those Zbars!!!" [I know this is not true b/c DD has been napping during the time they were eaten ;)]
Me: "That is not the truth. Please try again - it can be hard to tell the truth but it is very important and mommy loves when you tell me what really happened." [got that from the book NurtureShock - great chapter on lying]
DS: [silent while he thinks, I might go over and touch him to connect with him and let him know I want to help]
Me: Do you want me to help you know what to say?
DS: Yes
Me: You could say "Mommy, I ate the Zbars."
DS: (softly) "Mommy, I ate the Zbars."
Me: "Thank you for telling me the truth. Please throw away the wrappers. Since you ate 3 Zbars, that means you cannot have a Zbar tomorrow or the next day b/c you ate three days worth in a row. You can have a Zbar again on Friday." [DS understands calendars and math so this makes sense to him]
DS: Ok! Throws wrappers away and goes back to playing.

Just had to say how much I love this idea. THANK YOU!! :think must read Nurture Shock...

[houseforjoy]

Yep i think you have gotten some really great advice!!

I agree with switching toothpastes- no more fun ones for awhile. and at 5 he would be ready to hear about digestion so i would check out a kid friendly book about healthy eating and digestion and talk about the ingrediants in toothpaste and how those ingredients are "good" for our teeth, but we spit it out in the sink because it is not good for our tummies/bodies. My kids are more likely to understand and "get" why not to do something if they really get the reasoning behind it instead of me just saying "it's yucky! you can get sick!"

[dancingWNC]

I have told my 5yo that our budget purchases only so much stuff. I buy one tube of toothpaste, and I need to it to last at least (_) amount of time. I explain that if he uses up all his toothpaste by being wasteful, that he won't have toothpaste to use, and will need to brush his teeth without it until I am able to get more.
And then allow an opportunity this time, since he's already eaten most of his toothpaste, to feel that natural consequence.

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 AM ----------


I'm very disturbed by the hiding and lying, not to mention the nonchalant attitude towards doing something wrong.

I find my 5yo tries to be all non-chalant too. So I would take some time on this one, and pray/contemplate about his heart. God might give you some insight on how to connect with his heart. Talking calmly at a later time will help get around that "tough exterior" they build in the moment.

When you are both calm, and connected, your message of love and your teaching of right/wrong will reach his heart MUCh more effectively.

In the moment, I'm often too caught up in trying to do something "to" them as a consequence, and my kid knows it - so I know for me, if I really want to do something "for" them to make better choices (ie: teaching/training in Truth) it takes an intentional, thought-through approach.

[hopeforchange]

you've gotten great advice in this thread! honestly I'd be more upset with dh than ds over this. dh should remember to put it up. if you wanted to keep buying the toothpaste I'd just make sure it was put up everytime after it was used.

[GraemesMomma]

Reading through some of the great advice, I kept thinking about an article by Sally Clarkson that's one of my favs, titles "Adversary or Advocate" (probably obvious what it's referring to)...and this is a situation I'd want to consider those two words in how I dealt with it. :love

[Proverbs31]

:hug2 I don't see this as a discipline issue so much as a health concern.

A little toothpaste eating is pretty normal. I remember eating toothpaste as a kid, but it was a little bit here or there.

But you said that he's eaten whole tubes, more than once. That's odd. And it's a strong enough compulsion for him to continue, even hiding if necessary to do so.

Is it maybe a form of pica? That could indicate a nutritional deficiency of some sort. Or does he feel compelled to binge on certain foods, sweets maybe? :think

[ShangriLewis]

Instead of looking at this as a discipline issue, why not look at it as a disciple issue? Here is an excellent opportunity to talk about lying and health issues.

Put the toothpaste in the kitchen.

don't ask questions like Did you eat the toothpaste? You know he did.

[Cherish]

I would maybe also examine why this makes you *so* angry. I would be mildly irritated by this, but not even close to angry. I'd be looking at your husband as the responsible party for leaving it out. 5 is still sooooooo little and so young. You can certainly address the behaviors, and teach, coach, etc, but punish... I would avoid that. I really really don't like the idea of the baking soda toothpaste idea... it sounds like a punishment because it will taste bad, and maybe that is appealing to something in you that is yearning to punish instead of showing grace? It might be just a "practical solution" for some moms with no hint of punishing, but when you come from "so angry I thought spanking would be the only consequence that would work" it makes me worry that you'll have a little "punishment" mindset with the baking soda. That can really hurt your relationship. I'd just avoid that idea until you are sure you are past the need to punish, and deal with that internally. Ask God to remind you about how He hasn't been washing your mouth out with soap, etc. whenever you've lied or said something you shouldn't. ;) That always works for me. ;)
Otherwise, the other ladies have given you some excellent advice. Kiss that 5 year old... they grow up too fast! :) (I have a 5 y o boy too, right now.) :)

[Iarwain]

I really really don't like the idea of the baking soda toothpaste idea... it sounds like a punishment because it will taste bad, and maybe that is appealing to something in you that is yearning to punish instead of showing grace? It might be just a "practical solution" for some moms with no hint of punishing,

For the record, since I'm the one who first suggested it, I proposed baking soda because 1) as a mom I sure wouldn't want to keep buying toothpaste only to have it eaten; 2) if a child is eating (relatively less toxic) flouride-free kid toothpaste then putting flouride-containing adult toothpaste in their hands is a bad idea; and 3) they still have to brush their teeth and there's no risk of them wanting to eat the baking soda. :yuck If eating toothpaste is a repeated temptation for this child then remove the temptation (and the OP had already stated that they had tried keeping it out of reach and that plan ran into human error problems). Just wanted to clear that up.

[joyinthejourney]

Thank you, Ladies, so much for your responses today! Here's how I handled things:

I told him about how Daddy works hard, his boss gives him money, and with that money, we buy things like food, toothpaste, toys, and other things. I told him its wasting Daddy's money and hard work to waste the toothpaste. I told him we'll decide (wih Dad) on some work he can do to earn money, with which to purchase new toothpaste. I also told him it'd have to be the plain baking soda kind, without any yummy flavors.

He was agreeable about working to pay for he toothpaste, but cried and calls me mean about the yucky type he has to buy. I calmly told him I didn't want to buy that one either, but I have to, so he won't be tempted to eat it again. That seemed to click, that its just "how it has to be", not something Mommy is doing to him, so he calmed down.

Since he was calm, I told him it's important to tell the truth, so that you are trustworthy. (Words we've discussed lately, so he got most of the meaning.) I then told him the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf. He enjoyed the story and was thoughtful about then ending. I told him that when he lies to me, it makes me not trust him vey much. I told him that Daddy always tells the truth and his boss really likes that about Daddy, because he can always believe what Daddy says. Other workers who don't tell the truth, arent trustworthy, so they dont get to keep their jobs. Even when Daddy makes a mistake, he still tells his boss he truth. He says, I'm sorry, I messed up, and I want to do better next time. And, Daddy's boss is pleased.

I told him I wanted him to grow up to be truthful like Daddy, not lying like the the boy who cried wolf. Not in a scary way, like "youre gonna get eaten by wolves", but in a way that showed my desire for the good of his future. He cried remorsefully here, bc he really wants to be like Daddy, but I hugged him and told him I think he WILL grow up to be like Daddy. I told him I love him and forgive him, and I know he can do better next time. I thanked him for being willing to work hard to make money and replace the toothpaste.

I couldn't have come up with all of this without you all and your prompt, creative solutions! <3

NOW...I need ideas on what work he can do to earn the toothpaste money. I don't want it to be something he does everyday anyway, because I don't want him to think he will get paid everytime, or that he should be paid just to be a contributing member of our family. It needs to be an "extra" job, above normal expectations. Kwim?

P.S. I see there are many more responses since this morning. I'm about to go read them all! Thanks, again!

(Please excuse my typos. Typing from iPhone!)

[joyinthejourney]

N/M

[Castle On A Cloud]

eeww... have not read through the responses... But I would just not let him have access to it:shrug3 Keep it in your bathroom, or under your mattress, or on top of the fridge... Kids get into stuff - it is just a reminder to not allow them access to certain things (and ridiculously infuriating as well:hug2)

[Domina]

Not sure what sort of jobs he does normally, but 5 year olds are great at dusting baseboards. ;)

[mrsd]

First, lock the toothpaste up out of his reach.
Take him to the store and show him how much it costs to replace it.
What flavor is the toothpaste? Is it something he craves, like mint, and you can buy lifesavers instead?

[Sonata]

Help you fold laundry? Load up the dishwasher? Vacuum the living room? Sweep the leaves or snow off the front porch? Clean off the bath toys?

I agree with you that it shouldn't be something he is already expected to do, so it depends on the chores he normally does. Anything that he doesn't normally do is beyond that. What do YOU need doing? He's old enough to be a good helper!

[hotnostril]

I would maybe also examine why this makes you *so* angry. I would be mildly irritated by this, but not even close to angry. I'd be looking at your husband as the responsible party for leaving it out. 5 is still sooooooo little and so young. You can certainly address the behaviors, and teach, coach, etc, but punish... I would avoid that. I really really don't like the idea of the baking soda toothpaste idea... it sounds like a punishment because it will taste bad, and maybe that is appealing to something in you that is yearning to punish instead of showing grace? It might be just a "practical solution" for some moms with no hint of punishing, but when you come from "so angry I thought spanking would be the only consequence that would work" it makes me worry that you'll have a little "punishment" mindset with the baking soda. That can really hurt your relationship. I'd just avoid that idea until you are sure you are past the need to punish, and deal with that internally. Ask God to remind you about how He hasn't been washing your mouth out with soap, etc. whenever you've lied or said something you shouldn't. ;) That always works for me. ;)
Otherwise, the other ladies have given you some excellent advice. Kiss that 5 year old... they grow up too fast! :) (I have a 5 y o boy too, right now.) :)

We had this issue with shaving cream. Hubby kept leaving it on the sink. Everytime my son went in there to potty he would play with it emptying the entire can. Hubby would be all annoyed when he would discover a new can empty. I used to tease him about it. I'd say, your the adult that can't remember to put it up yet you expect a child to remember to not play with daddy's coolest toy! lol I started buying son cans of shaving cream from the dollar store for tub time.

[Sonata]

Good plan!

[joyinthejourney]

In response to some of the replies:

Why was I SO angry? Mostly because I'd only had 3 hrs sleep the night before. That's why I knew I needed advice and couldn't trust my feelings. Also because it was a repeat offense and we'd already tried many of the basic ideas.

Why not blame dh? Well, because bedtime is pretty chaotic, and I'm just glad we remember to brush teeth. Also because dh doesn't habitually leave it out. That was human error. But, ds does take every opportunity, when it's left out, to hide and eat some.

Did I explain how unhealthy it is to eat? Yes, many times before.

Does he have pica or some other deficiency causing the craving? Nah, it's not an everyday thing. It's a repeat offense, as in, he's done it many times before, but not in an obsessive way. He has pretty healthy eating habits, and doesn't crave sweets too often.

So, here's what happened: I had him clean baseboards yesterday, not as punishment, but bc Daddy works hard for our money, so he has to work to replace what he wasted. He did a good job, minimal complaining, and bought the toothpaste. I did let him buy the regular kind, bc frankly, it was lil sis's toothpaste he ate, and he doesn't like his own type enough to eat. He asked me wasn't hers safe to swallow. I explained its safe if you accidentally swallow a little while brushing or spitting, but it's not safe to eat. I saw comprehension in his eyes, and he said he'd never eat it again.

I feel pleased with the outcome and that he learned something. Thank you so much for GCM! It's a resource I wouldn't want to be without!

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------

Oh, and my second line of defense is to put her toothpaste in my bathroom closet with the vitamins, if he eats it again. But, I'm trying to show him some trust, since he seemed so adamant that he didn't want to eat it again.

[NewCovenantMama]

I'm glad it worked out well :)

With regard to hiding/lying in general, you might find these helpful. I know at 5 he's growing out of the Words As Magic stage, but he's growing out of it, not fully past it yet.

http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/19/6492349-why-kids-lie-and-7-ways-to-get-them-to-tell-the-truth

http://aolff.org/words-as-magic.html

http://attachmentparenting.org/blog/2011/02/11/lying-the-developmental-truth/