Can anyone provide me with some links?

[mishmom]

Hey All, I've been away from GCM for probably a year or so. It just got to be too much online time for me. But I'm now dealing with some new four year old issues and feeling like I need some help! :-/

Does anyone know of some good GCM threads about dealing with 4 year olds?

Also, can anyone direct me to some discussions about consequences. DH and I seem to have unknowingly slipped into more punitive methods... more time outs, removing of priveledges . We're both struggling with the need for "consequences". Sometimes the natural consequence like in this scenario don't work :

Lunch time:

Me: Please sit in your chair and eat
Child: (10 seconds later) climbing everywhere (falls off chair, screaming because she hurt her foot... not seriously)
Me: Place child in the chair "chairs are made for sitting, if you stand on them you may get hurt (again)"
Child: climbs again and falls & spills soup simultaneously (not 10 seconds after putting her back in the chair.)
Me: as I'm getting new soup... she's climbing on other chairs... "Come here. Stop climbing."
Child: Still climbing.
Me::mad Time out....

It seems like she got some pretty natural consenquences. Fell twice. Spilled her soup... (however, I did replace it with new soup.) But sometimes the natural consequence doesn't tap into a "felt need." Even imposed, but still natural consequences... like if you're misusing markers, you don't get to use them anymore... sometimes don't resonate. She just doesn't care. It doesn't cause her to change her behavior because it's not a "Felt need."

Do you all know what I'm talking about with "felt needs"? I work in community development... and we talk alot about felt needs. Like for instance, if a community has bad water... They may all come to me saying that they have diarrhea and need medicine for it. I can tell them til I'm blue in the face that they need a new water system...but it's not a felt need until there is some educaton. The felt need is the pressing need of diarrhea treatment. And until that is resolved they cannot focus on the larger issue of water treatment.

Bear with me. I didn't really intend to write a big long post, so I don't really have everything thought out... was just going to ask for some links... but since I'm here I might as well finish.

Ok stay with me as I flesh out a situation with a teengirl I'm discipling (who also lives with us.) We meet weekly and talk about her life and the bible (it's awesome by the way!) She wants to go to bible school next year, so I've started giving her tiny bits of "homework" like journaling about this topic or that topic, or studying these few verses in preparation for the next week. But a couple times she has failed to finish her home work in preference for watching TV. So in those instances, I removed her TV priveledges until she could finish the homework (:shrug3) (which by the way, was all of 2 hours that she didn't get to watch!) . In a real school the consequence for not doing homework is poor grades. I know that the true natural consequence for not doing this homework is that she doesn't get the benefit of connecting with her Father in Heaven... But that is not her felt need. The lack of TV was her felt need... it was more important in motivating her to accomplish her homework. Once she did it she had connected with the Father and was in a really great place again.... but my point is sometimes you have to work with the felt need in order to proceed to the real need! Does that make sense?

So now on to my four year old. I want my four year old to learn to trust and obey me. To trust me when I say, "please don't stand on that chair, I don't want you to get hurt." I want her to learn that I give her rules and boundries to keep her from getting hurt and because I love her. I want her to learn these things so that she'll understand them in relation to God and will be able to trust Him in the ways he leads her. BUT this is not her felt need at the moment.. her felt need is "I want to wear a dress" So I'm so often we find ourseles providing consequences like this: "please stay in your chair or you will not allowed to wear a dress today." Because these are the things that truly motivate her. Even falling down and hurting her foot don't really matter.... but wearing a dress. That is enough to change for.

Ok, so now I'm imagining all the possible responses.

1) It sounds like your child needs more opportunitites to climb. Well yes that's probably true in general. But on the day this particular incident occured, we had just returned from a play date at the park!

2) I don't know the right terminology, but it seems like I've read discussions about changing outside behavior and not really changing the inner motivations. Is this what we're doing if we say "don't climb on the chair or you can't wear a dress? " I don't want to do that.

Honestly, I've been struggling with the philosophy of consequences for a long time. About a year ago on a thread here at GCM someone said something like "If you can't think of a natural consequence that can be applied in the moment, it's better to not give a consequence at all." And that phrase has been bouncing around in my head for a whole year... and it just doesn't sit right with me. All of our actions have consequences... many of them are unseen and consequences that occur in the heart. I know that if I lie... even if no one ever finds out and there are no real life repercussions... that sin has caused some separation between me and the Father.... that's a consequence that I'm aware of ... But my four year old isn't as able to be aware of the break in relationship that occurs when she disobeys (which is one of the natural consequences.) .... Which is why it feels like I should be enforcing "felt need" consequences... iykwim?

Oh gosh. now I'm just rambling. I'll stop now. :yes. I'd appreciate your constructive ideas and/or links... as I know these things have probably been discussed tons of times here at GCM! :)

Thanks everyone. It's nice to be back. :heart

[R7blessings]

I would reread the 5 Step sticky.

With my 4yo it would look like this....

Mom- As I am walking toward the child--"chairs are for sitting" and gently sit child down.
4yo- gets back up and continues to climb
Mom- "Chairs are for sitting, you have a choice--- sit on the chair or sit and eat on the floor"
Then make it happen.

At this age I use the 5 steps or a shortened version of the 5 steps.

At this age it really is 'Get off your butt' parenting.

As far as the teen you are working with--- That is really great that!

Dealing with teens can be a little tricky. I think you still might have a punitive mindset(taking away tv to get what 'you' want).
It may 'seem' like you were getting through to her --- but when you take something away from a teen to get them to do something--- they will act and behave however they think you want them to behave in order to get what they want ( tv).

If you really want to get to her heart-- I would sit down with her when you are both in a good frame of mind, and tell her how you feel about her skipping Bible time in favor of tv. Tell her your concerns, tell her how much you love her. Tell her your testimony. Ect.
Let her 'see' how much 'you' love the Lord. Let her 'see' you having your Devotions and then talking to her about what God is doing in your life.

Only God can change her heart-- Keep showering her with Grace--- the way God showers you with grace.

[Kiara.I]

All of our actions have consequences... many of them are unseen and consequences that occur in the heart. I know that if I lie... even if no one ever finds out and there are no real life repercussions... that sin has caused some separation between me and the Father.... that's a consequence that I'm aware of ... But my four year old isn't as able to be aware of the break in relationship that occurs when she disobeys (which is one of the natural consequences.) .... Which is why it feels like I should be enforcing "felt need" consequences... iykwim?

Okay. God is on mission to us. Always. He comes after us LONG BEFORE we ever notice a break in relationship from him. You see it all through the Old Testament. In fact, I think it's only *because* he comes after us that we even notice a break in relationship with Him. :shrug

If there is a break in relationship between you and your 4 yo when she doesn't comply with your instructions, it is YOUR responsibility to bridge it. That's the kind of grace that our Father gives us, and it's the kind of grace that we need to show others. Especially our children, who are in no way mature enough to understand the problem.

I would suggest reading Ames & Ilg "Your Four Year Old" for the behavioural stuff. But NOT for the discipline stuff. :no

I would also encourage you to examine WHY she needs to stay in her chair. :scratch "Because she might get hurt". Okay. So tell her, "I'm concerned that if you get up and climb around and wiggle a lot, you may get hurt." Then, if she does it, and gets hurt, she's seen that you were right. But does it really *matter* if she sits still?

If what you are trying to work on is table manners, then *teach* it as table manners. Read books about table manners (miss piggy used to have one...) Talk about elegant tea or something, have tea parties.

The other thing is that you're issuing random (to her) commands. Have you explained to her *why* she should sit in a chair? Not what might happen if she doesn't, but why she should? :scratch

What about, *before* dinner starts, go over the basic expectations that you are working on with her right now. "Okay, it's dinner time. Remember, keep your bum sitting on your chair, and keep your water glass farther in from the edge." Or whatever it is.

By the way, I would also explore WHY she's wiggling so much. Is the chair too low for her to be comfortable? Maybe she's trying to get into a better position (but of course standing is TOO tall.) Perhaps she would like a booster seat? Or a telephone book to sit on? Would she do better kneeling?

[rjy9343]

With my niece and nephew (and soon my daughter) I get them do something to get rid of the energy they have. (Especially the niece). If we go for a walk or they play outside, then meals seem to be a lot smoother since they do not have as much energy they are trying to burn.

[Amber]

Around the age of 4 to 5yrs My oldest ate most of his meals standing up :shrug The chairs were at the wrong height for him to sit comfortably and he did a lot of wiggling and flopping. It was so much easier to just let him stand up. Now, at 7.5 he can sit (relatively) still and eat a meal.

With the teen situation. I am a little confused, are you homeschooling her or just giving her assignments to help her if she chooses to go to Bible school later? If it is homeschooling I would impose the same consequences as you do when other subjects aren't done. If it is to help prepare her for Bible school, more of a discipling type thing I would not impose consequences for not doing the "homework". Her walk with God is hers. The motivation to do the work, to learn more and grow closer to God needs to come from within her. I believe that imposing consequences in an area like this can backfire and end up with the teen feeling resentful and pushing away from God. When the "homework" is left unfinished I would talk to her about why it wasn't finished - does she think it isn't relevant to her life, not work well with the way she learns/processes information, unimportant to her etc? I would help her brainstorm ways to make it a priority, but I wouldn't impose outside cosequences.

[GraemesMomma]

This post has a lot of useful help (whether you ascribe to her parenting philosophies completely or not :)
http://theparentingpassageway.com/category/development/2010/02/18/children-media-and-more-wise-words-from-marsha-johnson/2009/12/16/cultivating-the-energy-the-inner-work-of-advent/2009/12/08/discipline-for-the-four-year-old/#entry


And I thought of these while reading your post.
http://hippiehousewife.blogspot.com/2011/10/ten-alternatives-to-time-outs.html
http://hippiehousewife.blogspot.com/2009/07/behaviour-modification-punishment.html

[saturnfire16]

Is standing on the chair really, truly dangerous? I assume you let her climb on higher things with more physical activity at the park, right?

My kids stand on chairs all the time. It starts at about a year old (my 11 month old has been doing it for a few weeks now). Sometimes they fall off. :yes Sometimes they trip while walking too. :doh When they fall I usually use this approach:

"Dude, if you don't stand on it, you probably won't fall off it." :doh

They are usually *careful* when they stand (not jumping around, etc.) and fall very rarely. Not because I have EVER given them a consequence for standing on the chairs, but because as they have gotten older, they have figured out the natural consequences.

Also, like someone else mentioned, chairs are at a really bad height for little ones and it just isn't comfortable to sit. My kids sit much better at stools at the counter and as my 6 year old has gotten taller, she doesn't stand on the chairs as often.

[mishmom]

Hey Everyone. Thanks for your great ideas & Links!