I just cannot GD my five year old.

[Christina+5]

Z. He is a great kid. But very distracted. Maybe that is normal five year old behavior. He cut several pieces of paper into a bazillion little pieces. IT looks like a confetti bomb exploded in my living room, dinning room and kitchen. (These rooms are all connected). I don't mind him cutting the paper. He is constantly in search of something to destroy-literally. So often times I will tell him he can cut or tear up the paper. This is ALWAYS accompanied by the direction that if he wants to cut it up, he has to clean it up afterwards. It has never been a problem before.

Yesterday, about four p.m., he cut up several papers, while daddy was watching him. I was in the shower. Then daddy had to go to work. When it was time for him to clean up, I asked him to get it done and he refused. I told him that I would be making dinner soon and I needed the mess cleaned up before he sat down to eat. Then I started prepping dinner. I reminded him every so often, helped pick up a bit, even had siblings help. I tried making clean up a game. I also said that I would be happy to serve him dinner after he cleaned up. Nothing seemed to work. "I'm not going to!" He yelled this at me repeatedly. Well...he went to bed without dinner. Still dead-set on not picking up his papers.

This morning, when he woke up, I spent lots of time snuggling him, fed him a good breakfast and then tried again. I got down on the floor to help him and encourage him to do it too. He told me to do it myself. I told him I had lots of other work to do and if I had to do his job, then he would have to help me with some of my jobs.

No!!! I made him lunch, and then got on the floor to help clean up and he told me that he was going to eat his lunch while I cleaned his mess up. I told him no. I told him he could wait until the mess was cleaned up and if I had to do it all, he would still have to wait til I got done. I also said that it may take me a while b/c I had to stop to nurse baby, put dd down for nap and care for the twins' needs. He grabbed a fist full of his lunch and shoved it in his mouth. "So there!" (BTW, as a result we got rid of the TV. That is the only place I can figure he learned saying that).

So I moved him to a chair away from the table while I cleaned. He screamed horrid things at me while I did it.
I truly believe that this behavior is not acceptable. I want it changed. I just have NO idea how to change it.

I know that sending him to bed w/o food is NOT Gentle Discipline. I know I failed. I know. I am at the end of my rope with him.

I want to spank him...I called my dh to tell him that...Thank God for a dh who understands gentle.

All throughout the Bible, God gave consequences for disobedience. Annanias and Saphira were struck dead for lying (which doesn't seem like a natural consequence to me). I really feel like there needs to be some severe consequences for this behavior. I am very much feeling like I am not cut out to parent. What was I thinking?

The paper issue is just the icing on the cake. Z yells at me, hits and kicks me
(which earns him immediate separation from me...I am not going to let him do that.) He is turning into one of "those" children. You know-the kind that as a young person, I vowed I would never have b/c "by golly, my kids would obey me!"

I am so close to just quitting. I know spanking is not the way to go. But more and more often I feel like a soundly spanked child would be a better alternative to a wild, disobedient one. I cannot even take him out in public. He threw himself on the floor at Walmart yesterday and I had to carry him, my 10 mo. old, two year old, and twin four year olds out of the store by myself...I just cannot do this anymore.:(:cry:banghead

[Soliloquy]

:hugheart

It sounds like there is more going on than just normal 5 yo not wanting to clean up. I know because my 5 yo is the same way. He has anxiety, is on a special diet, and sees a therapist and a classical homeopath.

Maybe someone will have some good suggestions for both of us.

I will say that I was spanked and I was wildly disobedient, willful, and eventually sneaky and an extremely skilled liar so I could get what I wanted w/o punishment. Spanking won't necessarily turn him into a compliant child, it will just throw violence into the mix of what is already going on. :hugheart Although I understand the temptation, I've been tempted, too.

[luvinmama]

Bbl :hugheart

[WanderingJuniper]

My son does not have any special needs at all and that behavior would still occur from time to time between the ages of 4 and 6. We are just passing it. I'd venture to say the mess was to big and created panic in him. My son does this with his room. I break down the task and playfully parent him through it.

"let's set the timer for how long? One minute? Okay. And see who can clean up the most paper. Here's your bag. The winner gets to be served first for lunch. Ready, set, go! - oh boo I lost..."

And sometimes it is okay to not force the issue and express your disappointment with your child for not doing what was expected of them. The consequence being mom had to clean up the paper. Child may not shred paper again until they have shown they can handle clean up.

It sounds like you have a spirited little guy on your hands. I've got a few of those. They definitely require some creative parenting.

As for the mouthy aspect, have you scripted him a better option for when he has a big opinion that he expresses inappropriately? There was a period there where it felt like all I said was "please try again. 'Mom, am not happy about cleaning.". Expressing frustration IMO is not the same as disobedience. However there are respectful ways to express big feelings and disrespectful ways. Children do not always understand the power of the words they speak. I still have to help my almost ten year old through this. She doesn't mean to be sassy or rude she just isn't aware of how her words sound or mean at times. We work through better ways to say things a lot around here.

Hitting means sitting here. Except it extends to all forms of hurting a loved one physically. "you may not hurt me. You will sit down until you feel calmed and are ready to make amends for hurting me. It is not okay to hurt people."

[MarynMunchkins]

You have a 5 year old, 2 4 year olds, a 2 year old, and a 10 month old? That's a LOT of really young kids. :hug

At 5, I did (do) very little insisting they clean. I expect them to help - but I will clean if they refuse. The consequence is I have less time and energy for other fun things, so we're less likely to do crafts, read books, or go outside later. It also means stuff like the paper would be off limits until I had better results with his cleaning.

I suspect some of your struggle with GBD has more to do with the vast number of needs coming from your children, which is simply a function of having that many that young. I know when my oldest was 5, I kept wanting him to act older than his age because I needed a child to stop causing so many problems and occasionally be helpful. I expect so much less of my current 5 year old.

IDK how that's helpful. :lol I'm not saying his behavior is acceptable, but I also don't think it's outside the realm of normal for 5. For me, I had to just decide that I was using GBD because I believed it was right. I focused on my behavior rather than that of my children, because otherwise I would have spent all day punishing.

[Titus2Momof4]

:cup:hkiss ...first and foremost. Also :hug2

And, looking at the situation, you have *five* kids ages 5 and under. :phew I've almost been there/done that, since I have 4 kids aged 4 and under at one point. :crazy ITU!!

Now, let's back all the way back up to the beginning: You're in the shower, DS is happily cutting paper :artist You get out, DH heads off to work (I'm guessing it's around 4:30 by this time) and tell DS it's time to clean up so you can get ready for dinner.

That says, to me, that it's probably getting (or past) time for him to be hungry. Hungry kids = uncooperative kids a lot of times. Can I ask, why did you need the mess cleaned up before he could eat? I understand there were paper shreds in the kitchen, but could you have maybe swept them aside--making enough room for you to cook--and moved on, cooked, and eaten first? Is there a reason he had to pick up BEFORE eating?

After that, you two were butting heads. You insisted on cleaning before eating...he insisted he wouldn't clean, therefore he didn't eat. You already know that wasn't the best thing, so no sense harping on that. :hug For next time (if there is a next time he's allowed to shred papers :giggle), maybe you could say "So, it's time to cook and eat. Also the mess needs to be picked up. Do you want to pick up before or after you eat?" After he eats (assuming he chose after), if he still insists on not cleaning, I would do the things you did--make a song, enlist help of siblings, etc.

It would not have been there the next morning, though. Even if I had to pick it up myself, tomorrow would be a new day. :sun I don't think it helps things to STILL have that in his face the next day. I think it carried on wayyyy to long...like you were dead set on "he WILL clean this up" or something. :hug2 However, as a result, cutting paper into billions of pieces would be put on hold for a while........ :)

I know when my oldest was 5, I kept wanting him to act older than his age because I needed a child to stop causing so many problems and occasionally be helpful. I expect so much less of my current 5 year old.

:up:up:up:up:up:up:up a million times YES to this.

[Christina+5]

Why he needed to pick up before dinner? Because I said so. :duck

Yea. I know how that sounds, after typing it. And, as usual, you are right...I do expect too much of him simply b/c he is the oldest.

I really like the thought/reminder that tomorrow is a new day. I need to remember that.

[euromom]

First a :hugheart because I have btdt with my ds.

others have already mentioned this but I know with my ds certain messes, like tiny bits of paper on the floor, are so overwhelming to him it causes a lot of anxiety and much of the same issues you just went through. What I have done in the past is state that if I have to clean his mess, then he does not get to use the scissors again until mommy is ready to let him have a try again. Then when I feel ready for a try again (usually a week or more later), before I hand him the scissors we talk about what happened last time (mommy cleaning the mess and not him) and what needs to happen this time if he makes a mess (he needs to be part of the cleanup) if he is successful, he may keep using scissors. If not, they go bye bye again for awhile til we do it all again. I also make sure that the 'try agains' are at a time when I know it would not be too stressful for me to help him clean up if he needs it, so if he asked for scissors right when I am about to make dinner but last time he used them he did not clean up, I might say "Using scissors makes a big mess and big messes are hard to clean right at dinner time. Why don't you help me with (and I name some dinner chore like clearing off the table, or getting out the silverware) and we can try the scissors after you eat a good dinner." Giving him a chore sometimes helps my ds get his mind off the fact that what he really wanted was the scissors since he has a tendency to get "stuck" on his ideas.

Also I understand the fear that he could be turning into one of "those" children, but I want to encourage you that kids act this way at home sometimes because they feel safe with you. Home is where they learn where boundaries are and home is where they are going to test them out. My son does all kinds of crazy stuff at home sometimes (rages, tests every boundary, talks back, whines, etc....) but when he leaves our house I honestly hear nothing but compliments on him all the time. Because when he leaves the house he knows what the boundaries are and he puts them into practice... and then he comes back home and tests out new ones. Your son is still so little and I think even in the next couple years you are going to see so much maturing happening in him. He will test boundaries with you and there will be days it does feel like he's never going to "get" it. But if you continue with GD and kindly and firmly teach him what his boundaries are, when he leaves your home you will see that he really is not at all what you fear he could be becoming, that as a matter of fact he is absorbing and getting everything you are teaching him. GD takes time and patience and lots of repetition, but the fruit really is amazing :heart

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

Why he needed to pick up before dinner? Because I said so. :duck



I think a key thing for me to learn with GD is that the goal in GD is not "well behaved" I once wrote a blog post about this, here's an excerpt from it that maybe could help:

When my goal is “well behaved” my patience runs thin and l become more easily upset about all the small, age-expectant behaviors they do. I might at times set standards for my children that are too high and which only sets them up for failure. I will find myself reacting to their behavior instead of responding. I become focused on the present and I fear the future because I might believe it when people tell me they may ALWAYS or NEVER do X,Y, or Z. If I think too long on these "always/never" statements I might start believing them and become afraid of what my children might be like when they get older. If they are not well behaved at age 4 how will they ever be well behaved at age 14? With this mindset I might start implimenting more punitive approaches to assure myself this will not happen to MY child.
On the other hand, when my goal is maturity I find myself with the patience and understanding that they will not “always” behave like they are in a certain given moment. I will set age appropriate standards that set them up for success. I am able to respond to their needs instead of reacting to their behavior. I am able to walk through situations with them, no matter how long it takes or how much repetition they need. When my goal is maturity I get to see the inner discipline that takes place as the fruit of all my labor and teaching. I watch them go from not being able to manage something on their own to a place where they are able to handle it all by themselves. I do not fear their future with every little mishap but instead I look forward to the person they are to become as they grow out of one certain pattern/behavior and into the next stage of life. I can smile because I know I will be proud of what my Children will be when they grow up.

[ArmsOfLove]

All throughout the Bible, God gave consequences for disobedience. Annanias and Saphira were struck dead for lying (which doesn't seem like a natural consequence to me). I really feel like there needs to be some severe consequences for this behavior. I am very much feeling like I am not cut out to parent. What was I thinking?
To people who are adults and can be expected to understand of course. You're talking about a FIVE year old :( I cannot even find a place to compare them to Annanias and Saphira :(

You have an immature 5yo--at minimum. If he isn't going to clean up the paper anymore and you aren't willing to take a strong presence in that clean up process then don't let him have paper and scissors. Prevention--make that your plan as you set him up for success.

FWIW my 6.5 yo's do the same thing with the cutting papers. In the last few months we've stopped getting resistance to cleaning up (what to them is an overwhelming mess).

No discipline will make your child not 5; no discipline will make your child not who he is.

You can, however, get more on top of things, be more proactive, be more hands on and make sure your words have meanings. The consequence of not cleaning up today means you don't get to play with that tomorrow. We'll wait awhile and see if you've matured.

I know he's the oldest--but he's really still a baby. In ancient Israel he would just now be moving into the beginnings of the "child" camp from the baby camp.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------


It sounds like there is more going on than just normal 5 yo not wanting to clean up. I know because my 5 yo is the same way. He has anxiety, is on a special diet, and sees a therapist and a classical homeopath. My twins have HORRIBLE anxiety. This is why I said 5yo "at minimum" :yes

[Titus2Momof4]

Why he needed to pick up before dinner? Because I said so. :duck



:think

It sounds like maybe you need a paradigm shift (btdt before too, btw). You sound like you're stuck in this "he WILL obey me" mindset--even though he's only 5. This mindset is causing you to butt heads with him. With all due respect..... you were being just as stubborn as he was. ;)

Couple of things to keep in mind:

-even tho he's your oldest, he's still a baby
-it IS okay to change your mind/"commands" given to him. Actually not only is it okay, it's admirable, humbling and fantastic if you do it audibly...in front of him. Let him see that you aren't perfect either.
-you picking up the mess *for* him would not be him "getting away with something." Remember, you're putting this paper-cutting-into-billions-of-pieces stuff on hold for now, as a result of him refusing to clean up.
-and, yes, tomorrow IS a new day :sun :heart

[FebFaith]

:hug2 Wow, that sounds tough. I have no advice that the others have not already mentioned. I just really understand that "they will obey because I said so.." type of thinking. I deal with it in my own head. I feel like I'm doing nothing, but when I respond with patience and firmness in my boundaries (you may not use paper unless you can clean it up) they eventually learn.

[Christina+5]

To people who are adults and can be expected to understand of course. You're talking about a FIVE year old :(

I needed this! Thanks, Crystal for the reminder.