He does not recognize authority at all

[Calliope]

DS1 will turn 4 tomorrow. He knows his own mind. :shifty When he's made it up, he can rarely be persuaded to do other than what he's decided to do. He does not seem to recognize anyone - even us - as an authority that he *must* listen to and comply with. We are no different than any other adult to him and adults are no different than children. :shrug3 When I took him to be screened by the IE unit near here, they were concerned by his unwillingness to do what any of the adults were telling him to do.

I honestly have no idea how to convey the idea of authority to him in such a way that he understands that it is to be complied with. We've tried to explain to him that mommy and daddy take care of him and we've been around a long time and so we know a lot. Though he likes the idea that we take care of him, it's on HIS terms. Reasoning, negotiation and brute force :bag don't do anything either, because he sees himself just as capable of those things too.

Am I doing something wrong? I want him to see himself as a person with value and a voice, but, at least for his own safety and those around him, sometimes he just needs to comply because a person who knows better said to.

:help

[tiffany]

no advice, but wanted to :hug2 you. Mine are the same way at home and with some family. I know how stressful and frustrating and hopeless it feels. :hug2 :pray4

[StoryOfGrace]

Subbing for wisdom.

:hugheart

[Rabbit]

I don't think you are doing anything wrong. His response is normal, and expected. Especially for a child who isn't routinely spanked and controlled.

[Tasmanian Saint]

Just at the moment, I'm marvelling at my amazingly compliant (a lot of the time ;)) 4.5yo - maybe your DS is just being 3.5? It's often recommended here to contract the 5 Steps with 3yos - do step 1 and step 4 together (give instruction *while moving* to give help)... Hopefully it will get better soon :hug

[Can'tTurnLeft]

I don't think that DD got the concept that we had authority until she was over four. :think I know DS1 has no concept that we have the ultimate say in his universe :giggle I think that for children who aren't spanked and are allowed to have some personal freedoms at young ages AND who don't go to any sort of preschool program that it looks like they don't get authority. The thing is...I think they do get it, or are at least learning the concept, but they are learning it in a safer more productive way than kids in other environments are. They are learning that authority can be questioned in a healthy manner and that they don't have to be subject to it outside of safety issues. I think they learn the concepts of freedom and liberty in a way that will result in adults who are innovative and able to think outside of the box that mainstream authority demands.

[Naxi]

:hugheart to you. I am mainly here for wisdom, too.

One thing that we do sometimes is tell them that even if they don't like it, God chose us to be the ones to look after them and teach them. It is our job to do that as much as it is their job to learn from us. That is part of being the family God made us to be.

Not that it works all the time... :shrug3

It's often recommended here to contract the 5 Steps with 3yos - do step 1 and step 4 together (give instruction *while moving* to give help)

Can you please tell me where I can find more on the 5 steps?

Nat

[MarynMunchkins]

This is why children are smaller than adults. So we can pick them up, hold them still, make them move. :shrug That's not in a mean "I'm bigger than you!" way. :no It's just a matter of fact "I will make this happen" way.

Some children are particularly persistent and opinionated. As they get older, you begin to see the value in that. It's exhausting in young children, but it's really not a bad thing. :hug

[Can'tTurnLeft]

Oh, and what worked for us was outside of the paradigm of most moms on this board, and that was a moms day out program twice a week. It taught my kids skills like listening in line, waiting your turn, etc...which turned into crossing the street safely, stopping when I said stop as you were running away. I am a big fan of preschool for littles, even if they are going to be homeschooled later. But that is likely family specific because I really really really really really don't like toddlers and preschoolers. I don't do well with unreasonable, and they are supposed to be unreasonable at that age ;)

Another thing that worked for us with DD was playing the stop/go red light/green light game whenever we were in a safe environment. DS1 doesn't respond to that though. He just hears green light and runs forever :sigh

[NewCovenantMama]

Can you please tell me where I can find more on the 5 steps?


http://aolff.org/grace-based-discipline/the-5-steps

This is similar to the abbreviated version of the 5 Steps
http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=54

[Calliope]

Oh, and what worked for us was outside of the paradigm of most moms on this board, and that was a moms day out program twice a week. It taught my kids skills like listening in line, waiting your turn, etc...which turned into crossing the street safely, stopping when I said stop as you were running away. I am a big fan of preschool for littles, even if they are going to be homeschooled later.

Yes, R will be attending the IE preschool starting in January since his lack of authority recognition qualified him for services. :shifty

[bolt.]

I'm 33, and I still haven't figured out what 'authority' is, or why it exists. Most situations that others talk about as authority situation, I tend to view as agreements, covenants or transactions. I do that do I can function in the world -- because I simply can't shake my egalitarian perspective on everything.

I tell you this so you will know that it is hard for him too -- even though it's clearly no picnic to be parenting someone who is stuck there.

Eventually you may be able to get through theologically (God is clearly a legit authority, by His supirior nature, and His direct Creator-ship over people) and then things like allegiance, loyalty, integrity, trust and duty will begin to sort themselves 'under God'. In the meantime you can try appealing to him on the basis of his pride, his integrity, and a concrete transactional point of view. (I can work with examples to make this more clear, if you like. Please provide your own examples of situations...)

[ThirstyTurtle]

Yes, R will be attending the IE preschool starting in January since his lack of authority recognition qualified him for services. :shifty

There's irony somewhere in there. :giggle

[klpmommy]

S routinely yells "You're not the boss! I'm the boss! I make the rules for me! Rule #1 <insert whatever she isn't supposed to do as her supposed to do rule>."

So I don't think it is age unexpected. :shrug

[dancingWNC]

I don't think you are doing anything wrong. His response is normal, and expected. Especially for a child who isn't routinely spanked and controlled.

Is there a way to talkto them and introduce the concept of respect, authority, etc?

[MarynMunchkins]

Yep. :) You pick them up, hold them still, make them move. ;) You enforce the rules.

When they speak disrespectfully, you say "That was disrespectful. Try again." and give them a script. When they behave rudely, you explain why it was rude and expect them to apologize and make amends.

You model respect for them and other people, and show respect for the authority in your life. It's just a long path to get to the end goal. There are no short-cuts to raising adults. :)

[allisonintx]

a child must reach the developmental stage in which they have the ability to Reason, before you can reason with them.

There's no way to make a 4yo not be 4 other than to wait them out, and disciple them at their level, and by that, I mean saying every thing as a matter of fact. Imperative statements work, pleading and requesting doesn't. "Requests" sound like they are optional. Children respect what is consistent, that they can count on to be the same every.single.time. Inconsistent parents struggle the most with teaching respect to small children.

[bolt.]

In my opinion the best way into that realm at that age is to start with property rights... Kind of a "my spoon, my rules" approach -- while respecting boundaries "your mouth, your decision". That kind of talk helps it be more concrete and less conceptual. It's impossible to teach a 4 year old at the conceptual level -- they are programmed tomlearn concretely.

[Rabbit]

I learned as a teacher to never take the "my house, my rules" approach to classroom management. It is our house, our family, and children are as much a part of it as I am the leader of it.

Children respect what is consistent, that they can count on to be the same every.single.time. Inconsistent parents struggle the most with teaching respect to small children.

Yep. You
Quote:
pick them up, hold them still, make them move.

You enforce the rules.

When they speak disrespectfully, you say "That was disrespectful. Try again." and give them a script. When they behave rudely, you explain why it was rude and expect them to apologize and make amends.

You model respect for them and other people, and show respect for the authority in your life. It's just a long path to get to the end goal. There are no short-cuts to raising adults.

:yes

You consistently behave with integrity and authority, keeping them safe, teaching them how to behave, meeting their needs, and they figure it out. Their job is to separate from you, so they are driven to challenge your authority. Losing your cool is the quickest way to tell them that they have succeeded, and for little children, that makes them feel very unsafe.

In some issues, you really aren't the authority. You aren't the authority on how to tie shoes, or the best way to eat a burger, or whether or not the weather requires a coat. You are a resource, one they will frequently choose to ignore until they've tried, and learned from their own mistakes. It's the firmest way to learn. They are the authorities on their own bodies and feelings.

[Mum2Es]

In some issues, you really aren't the authority. You aren't the authority on how to tie shoes, or the best way to eat a burger, or whether or not the weather requires a coat. You are a resource, one they will frequently choose to ignore until they've tried, and learned from their own mistakes. It's the firmest way to learn. They are the authorities on their own bodies and feelings.

I LOVE this! :yes:yes:yes

[Calliope]

Okay, here is an example: R often kicks and wriggles around when I am changing his diaper. Makes me nuts. I tell him to stop kicking me because it hurts. I tell him to lay still because wiggling makes it hard to change his diaper. Doesn't matter. He can't or won't stop himself. If I hold him down, he screams like I am torturing him and then begs, pleads and promises not to kick anymore. The second I let go, he starts up again - with glee. I wish he would just obey me because I'm mommy and said not to kick.

Lather, rinse, repeat for spitting food, getting too rough with his brother, throwing his toys, etc.

I know at four he doesn't have a lot of impulse control, but I feel like I don't even get a glimmer of recognition that he *should* listen to me even if he doesn't. Direct instructions of any kind are often me with a matter of fact, "Nope. I'm not going to do that."

[Amazement]

Okay, here is an example: R often kicks and wriggles around when I am changing his diaper. Makes me nuts. I tell him to stop kicking me because it hurts. I tell him to lay still because wiggling makes it hard to change his diaper. Doesn't matter. He can't or won't stop himself. If I hold him down, he screams like I am torturing him and then begs, pleads and promises not to kick anymore. The second I let go, he starts up again - with glee. I wish he would just obey me because I'm mommy and said not to kick.

Lather, rinse, repeat for spitting food, getting too rough with his brother, throwing his toys, etc.

I know at four he doesn't have a lot of impulse control, but I feel like I don't even get a glimmer of recognition that he *should* listen to me even if he doesn't. Direct instructions of any kind are often me with a matter of fact, "Nope. I'm not going to do that."

I think you have to let the "shoulds" and the "wishes" go. You don't have any power to bring them about, so they're only going to frustrate you. Focus on what IS and what you WILL do. In the diaper change situation, I'd tell him before I start that I need him to lie still because kicking hurts. First kick, I'd hold him down. It's OK if he doesn't like it. You know you're not torturing him. Validate his feelings and do what needs to be done. "You don't like being held, but I need to be safe while I'm changing you. Next time you can try again to lie still." I wouldn't give him more chances in the middle of a diaper change. One thing about diaper changes... you know there will be plenty more in the future for trying again!

[MarynMunchkins]

I wish my kids would just obey me too. :hug2 I bet God thinks that about us too.

We still have to deal with the situation at hand, though. It's easier said than done.

[Aisling]

I don't tend to harp on authority (a somewhat abstract concept) with small children a lot. I simply *am* the authority. If it's time for bed, bedtime is enforced. We don't haggle. I will sit on the bed and literally help you stay there until you go to sleep. I'll also help you get a heating pad/calcium/bedtime tea to help make it happen in a timely fashion. But you're not gettin' up when I know you've had a full day and it's time. :no If someone hits, I say, "Stop. Hitting hurts" *and* I firmly hold that little hand until everyone is safely out of dodge. Instructions are immediately followed up by "make it happen" action. To me, being an authority is being a kind, consistent, solid, immovable force. They're going to test their own power from time to time, and that's OK...it's part of growing. They're going to have a LOT of roller coaster, and it's not their job to be consistent-it's MINE. My job doesn't change. :heart

For instance, in our house, if you're over 3, you clean up your own eating area. 5yo decided last night that she didn't want to and "went boneless" and said, "You can't make me". :giggle:doh Thing is, I *can*. I hefted her up, walked her through the motions of raking her plate off and putting things into the dishwasher, my hands on her hands. She does nothing else until she finishes her daily, fully-understood job. Period, no negotiations, unless she's sick/needs to pee/too exhausted to keep herself together. :shrug3 It's annoying to have to follow through that way, sure, but so is taking out the trash and scrubbing the grout in the tub. Annoying parts of my job doesn't mean something's wrong or that someone has to *pay* or that it should be different. It just is what it is. I chose to be an adult and suck it up and embrace maturity (or at least that's the goal! :giggle)

[NewCovenantMama]

I think you have to let the "shoulds" and the "wishes" go. You don't have any power to bring them about, so they're only going to frustrate you. Focus on what IS and what you WILL do. In the diaper change situation, I'd tell him before I start that I need him to lie still because kicking hurts. First kick, I'd hold him down. It's OK if he doesn't like it. You know you're not torturing him. Validate his feelings and do what needs to be done. "You don't like being held, but I need to be safe while I'm changing you. Next time you can try again to lie still." I wouldn't give him more chances in the middle of a diaper change. One thing about diaper changes... you know there will be plenty more in the future for trying again!

:yes

Hold him down after the first kick. He needs to know that what you say, happens. You are going to stay safe from his kicking. If he can't or won't control his kicking, you will control it for him in order to keep yourself safe. Giving "chances", with anything, is a recipe for power struggles. If you want him to respect your authority you need to give him something concrete to respect. Or to put it another way, he can't respect a boundary unless you actually set one! In this case the boundary is that you don't tolerate kicking. Obviously this needs to be done in a gentle manner, not harshly, not shaming etc

I'm assuming that lack of recognition of authority isn't the sole reason why he qualifies for services. What other concerns are there? Has he been assessed for autism spectrum? The red flags for me are that he hates to be held down - possible sensory issue, promises to stop then starts up again "with glee" - may not connect his promise to stop with actually stopping, may see it merely as what gets you to let go, also may be unable to grasp that kicking hurts you bc it doesn't hurt him at the same time and he may not be able to distinguish your experience from his own. Apparent "glee" can also be an anxiety response.

I need to go get kiddos from school, I'll get back later. (Ds1 has high functioning autism, which is why your son's behaviour is triggering some "deja vu" for me).

[Domina]

Subbing.

[Aisling]

Something that helped me a ton was finally clicking in my mind/spirit that holding a child still from hurting you or offering help when they aren't doing something themselves doesn't need to have a combative/dominant energy. It's firm and patient and unrattled. It helped me to "get" that just because my child is upset or "acting up", I don't need to be flustered or shocked or tangled up in the upset. I really could carry on a conversation or maintain my own mood once I let go of the "shoulds" involved.

Should is a nasty, deceptive, undermining rabbit trail. He "should" be listening, because he "should" be acting differently, because I "should" somehow produce adult children, because I "should" appear perfect to myself and others, because they might not respect or love me if I don't (or, worse, I might not love myself if I don't! :doh) There are a lot of nutty assumptions that go into that thought process, for me, and once I drop it, parenting is much less angst-charged. :rockon

[klpmommy]

Grace, in that instance I'd start with holding him down to change the diaper and just say matter of factly something along the lines of "I know you say you aren't going to kick me, but this will help you to not kick me." and then be fast.

[PaperMomma]

:popcorn

[TraceMama]

I need this thread right now, since it seems my 5yo is oblivious to the sound of my voice. :sigh :shifty

[Calliope]

I'm assuming that lack of recognition of authority isn't the sole reason why he qualifies for services. What other concerns are there? Has he been assessed for autism spectrum? The red flags for me are that he hates to be held down - possible sensory issue, promises to stop then starts up again "with glee" - may not connect his promise to stop with actually stopping, may see it merely as what gets you to let go, also may be unable to grasp that kicking hurts you bc it doesn't hurt him at the same time and he may not be able to distinguish your experience from his own. Apparent "glee" can also be an anxiety response.

I need to go get kiddos from school, I'll get back later. (Ds1 has high functioning autism, which is why your son's behaviour is triggering some "deja vu" for me).

He's significantly delayed in general social adaptive skills according to them. He's not potty trained, doesn't dress himself, wouldn't cooperate with a lot the screening. He does have sensory and performance anxiety issues - though I am not sure how much of that is personality and how much is related to his GI general discomfort issues.




Here's an authority/consistency question for you all. I find that I will tell him to do something, he will ignore or argue with me and then I often decide whatever it is is not worth the conflict. I don't know if I should just follow through on my instruction for the sake of consistency even if it means a struggle over something small. If I don't, I feel like I just reinforce his perception that everything I want him to do is optional. How should I handle this?

Also, how do you speak with authority to your children and not have them turn around and speak commandingly back at you? R orders me around and dismisses my instructions like he's a prince or something. I know he is only mimicking my own tone and manner, but if I can't get him to recognize that some people can command and others must follow, he's not going to see any reason why he can't speak to anyone that way too.

[ArmsOfLove]

there is some element of what you're describing related to authority that is totally age expected. The challenge with special needs is that they sometimes create their own unique issues and sometimes just extend or exacerbate normal developmental issues. I would suggest with this issue it's the latter.

I found it vital with my oldest with his autism to follow through consistently on every single thing. OR to speak out loud to him that I was changing my mind. I never let him think that he "made" it so he didn't have to do it.

But "understanding/recognizing authority" isn't even something I bother with at this age :no You *are* the authority. If you accept that and act like it then they will eventually figure it out :)

As for them talking to you that way--I stop it immediately. "Excuse me. You may not make demands of me. You may ask me to do something. Say . . . . " and then I script them :)

[Calliope]

:think Will spin off about R's issues in general. The other stuff is helpful. Thanks.

[purplerose]

ODD? Oppositional Defiance Disorder? I had a 5yo student last year who had this. She blatantly disrespected authority. Example: during math we were doing a count the dots and they write the number of the dots they counted. She counted 5 dots and I asked what number do you write and she said 7. I said, but you counted 5 correct. She said, Yeah I know, but I don't want to write 5, I want to write 7. Everything she was asked to do, she wanted to do differently. It was a struggle all year long and I felt very badly for her poor mother. I'd definitely try to get this under control now before it gets worse. :hugs

[Rabbit]

ODD is an anxiety disorder. You cannot "get it under control.". It requires therapy and frequently meds.

[Katigre]

He's significantly delayed in general social adaptive skills according to them. He's not potty trained, doesn't dress himself, wouldn't cooperate with a lot the screening. He does have sensory and performance anxiety issues - though I am not sure how much of that is personality and how much is related to his GI general discomfort issues.

Here's an authority/consistency question for you all. I find that I will tell him to do something, he will ignore or argue with me and then I often decide whatever it is is not worth the conflict. I don't know if I should just follow through on my instruction for the sake of consistency even if it means a struggle over something small. If I don't, I feel like I just reinforce his perception that everything I want him to do is optional. How should I handle this?

Also, how do you speak with authority to your children and not have them turn around and speak commandingly back at you? R orders me around and dismisses my instructions like he's a prince or something. I know he is only mimicking my own tone and manner, but if I can't get him to recognize that some people can command and others must follow, he's not going to see any reason why he can't speak to anyone that way too.
How much does he understand about using different tones of voice? How clearly have you spelled out to him that you and he have different positions in the home?

In those types of interactions with my kids, I say something like this:

ex. DD: "Mommy, COME HERE NOW!!!"
Me: DD, that was bossy. Try again. Say "Mommy, please come here."
DD: "Mommy, please you come?
Me: Ok, here I come.

Basically, I correct tone of voice just as much (if not moreso) than actual words used and start this at age 2. I script both words and tone b/c both are important - with younger children I give exact things to say, with older ones I just prompt for a correction and they can do it on their own.

I would also use clear language like "R, you are not the boss of mommy. It is not ok to tell me what to do. Try againwith a question."

I can't speak to the conflict/enforcement issue b/c I don't know the pattern in your home or what R responds to.

[lucie]

OR to speak out loud to him that I was changing my mind. I never let him think that he "made" it so he didn't have to do it.


So how would you phrase that you're changing your mind?
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[NewCovenantMama]

Also, how do you speak with authority to your children and not have them turn around and speak commandingly back at you? R orders me around and dismisses my instructions like he's a prince or something. I know he is only mimicking my own tone and manner, but if I can't get him to recognize that some people can command and others must follow, he's not going to see any reason why he can't speak to anyone that way too.

:think:think

First of all, the concept you are trying to get him to understand is way too abstract for him to grasp. Even a 4yo without special needs would have trouble with it. He doesn't understand it because he can't. Depending on the nature of his neurological issues, it may be years before he can grasp it.

Secondly, the concept itself isn't a Godly one. I suspect the words I've bolded may be the root of some of the problems you are having with him.

Godly authority isn't about speaking "commandingly" and expecting to be obeyed - in fact Jesus warned against this style of authority in Lk 22:24-27. We are forbidden to "lord it" (pull rank) over those under our authority, but instead, "the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant." (verse 25). For us as parents this means we are to treat our children with as much respect as if we were the child and they were the parent. This is similar to the command to treat others as we want them to treat us.

Attitudes are caught, not taught, and our kids will faithfully reproduce our manner and tone of voice. In fact, if you want to hear a recording of how you sound, listen to your kids! There is a strong warning in Gal 6:6-8 that we will reap what we sow. If we want to reap honour from our children, we must sow honour into our relationship with them. If we sow bossiness, guess what we will reap back. I've seen this demonstrated in my own parenting time and again :bag.

Also, teaching kids that "some people can command and others must follow" teaches other-control rather than self-control. Worse, it conditions them to fall prey to authoritarian, spiritually abusive teachings and leaders - and there are far too many of them around. :yes2

Not being bossy doesn't mean we become wishy washy, and it also doesn't mean substituting polite requests for commands. When our kids were little I used phrases like "Time to....", or "Coat on time!" said in a playful voice, or "Now we're going to..." or "We/you need to..." I also 5 Stepped a lot, and the GOYB principle saved my sanity! The idea of "being" the authority is that you make things happen (especially with younger kids), rather than trying to make your child make it happen.

Here are the links I posted earlier:
http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=54
http://aolff.org/grace-based-discipline/the-5-steps (in case you aren't familiar with them)

This may also be helpful to you. http://www.transformativeparenting.com/why-children-say-no/

The way to have co-operative kids is to work on your connection with them while gently leading and enforcing boundaries by your actions.

Well, I need to go "lead" one of mine :giggle. HTH.

[Rabbit]

I think Emma rather eloquently explained what I feel in my gut about authority and children.

[mokamoto]

S routinely yells "You're not the boss! I'm the boss! I make the rules for me! Rule #1 <insert whatever she isn't supposed to do as her supposed to do rule>."

So I don't think it is age unexpected. :shrug

My 3yo DD does similarly. Isn't this the age where they are flexing their autonomy muscles, so this "authority" questioning is to be expected? In the long run, this will be a skill that when honed will make her a leader, or at the least not a blind-follower. I value that and honor her initiative. When it is safety at this age, I just have to keep her safe with my body, not just words.

On a practical note, I find when I state expectations as I am moving to help her, she does better. Although, we are experiencing some unexpected attitude lately, with kicking, biting and hitting. Sometimes she seems even happy to "have help" and other times is is contrary to her desires. We are working on language development instead of non-verbal dislike behaviors, although ironically my peers who are language professors say she is really advanced in her usage for three. When emotions take over though, words go out the window! That's true for adults, too though. ;)

:hug This too shall pass. The preschool should help, although expect some bumpy times in the beginning, and simply enjoy it if they are smooth. ;):heart

[Calliope]

Emma - yes, it is hard to dump the paradigm. That's why I asked the question. :) 99% of the time 'problems' with GD are actual problems of perception.

The reminder of leadership through servanthood is a good one.

[TraceMama]

A really simple yet profound reminder I had recently was to treat my children how I'd like to be treated. :O So, if someone presented me with something I *had* to do and I chose to resist it, how would I want someone to treat me while resisting? :think

Like I said, it's a basic principle, but it's had profound implications for me in how I speak to and behave with my children. :)

[Rabbit]

It is difficult to sort out, to dump the idea that "You'll do it because I said you'll do it!" but at the same time, being the shepherd and teacher. There are non-negotiables in our house. You -can't- kick me. It hurts. I don't like it. I won't let you, if you cannot stop yourself.

I think a lot of it has to do with changing where you're looking. Your authority comes from within you. Own your own authority. Feel it. Embody it. It does not come from your child reflecting it, acknowledging it, or kowtowing to it. It's tied up in boundaries. It's not about what your child does. It's about what you do.

[Maggirayne]

I was gonna say that sounds like my E. What a good reminder, Tracey, thank you!

NewCovenantMama, may I share you post with my DH?

Hugs, Grace, 4 is hard.

CTL, (I almost called you by your real name! Oops!) I think preschool might be good for my E. Thank you for putting into words why this age is driving me nuts. I have been repeating, "She doesn't have the capability of reasoning logically. She simply doesn't understand." Over and over.

[Calliope]

Please say that 4 is better than 3. Three was horrid. :shifty

[TraceMama]

4 is better than 3. :hug2

That said, each age with my oldest has been a challenge as I learn and adapt to his ever-changing developmental leaps. :shrug3

[AngelaVA]

Please say that 4 is better than 3. Three was horrid. :shifty

4 was so so much better than 3 for us

[bananacake]

My 4 is not better than 3. At all :shifty Except he's potty trained :giggle

I rarely tell Bear to do something unless I am ready and willing to follow through. 99% of the time. Thus I carefully choose what I ask him to do and what I "make" him do. Every once in a great while, I will change my mind. But mostly I carefully choose my hills to die on.

Bear was not potty trained at R's age. He does not dress himself. He doesn't recognize authority, either. But he seems perfectly normal to me. It likely has more to do with the specific child.
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[purplerose]

ODD is an anxiety disorder. You cannot "get it under control.". It requires therapy and frequently meds.

I didn't say he HAS ODD, just a thought. I meant meaning getting the disrespect for authority under control now. I was just trying to help

[Rabbit]

I didn't say he HAS ODD, just a thought. I meant meaning getting the disrespect for authority under control now. I was just trying to help

I understand what you meant, and I really meant to address specifically the idea that an ODD child has a problem with disrespect or authority. An ODD child has a problem with anxiety, and parents who are anxious to get the child's disrespect under control are actually feeding the problem, by driving the child's anxiety higher.

The idea that any child's behavior has to be gotten under control right now, or it'll get worse, tends to backfire, when it comes to getting results. ScreamFree Parenting has a lot to say on the topic. Today's behavior cannot be used to predict next year, or what kind of an adult your child will become. Today is just today.

[sweetpeasmommy]

ODD? Oppositional Defiance Disorder? I had a 5yo student last year who had this. She blatantly disrespected authority. Example: during math we were doing a count the dots and they write the number of the dots they counted. She counted 5 dots and I asked what number do you write and she said 7. I said, but you counted 5 correct. She said, Yeah I know, but I don't want to write 5, I want to write 7. Everything she was asked to do, she wanted to do differently. It was a struggle all year long and I felt very badly for her poor mother. I'd definitely try to get this under control now before it gets worse. :hugs
My child was dx'ed ODD before they realized he has autism. :) this is hard to read. No worries, I have a pretty thick skin. :hug The child with ODD or ASD has profound anxiety and often reacts with a fight or flight response. My child would write 7 because he likes things different and also felt threatened by the demand he do it the right way. :shrug diagnostically speaking I believe that 5 is too young to dx ODD though I may be wrong. I personally feel it's a catch all dx like rather than figure out why your gut is messed up, we are just going to call it IBS. Same thing only irt behavior. :soapbox

[Joanne]

I'm concerned about this thread.

I hope it doesn't read to others as a thread for standard expectations for 4 year olds. Because if that is "where" it is, it is terribly permssive/lax.

Standard/neurotypical 4 year olds have more respect for authority and impulse control that the OP's child.

While I agree with the links offered (indeed, I wrote a few of them ;) and collaborated on others), I think that the OP's situation is different and it (for the sake of readers here) needs to be made clear that parents can and should have different expectations of their 4 year old.

ODD is, when correct, a serious Dx. It is not an anxiety disorder (sorry, Natalie) but anxiety can present in ways similar to ODD behavior. ODD is related to Attention/Focus/Impulse Control grouping. (Attention-deficit and disruptive behavior disorders)

OP, I think your son is MORE and has some concerns of considerable merit. Please avail your family to all the trained services you can. I'm worried for you and your son.

[Rabbit]

I think ODD was mentioned tangentially, and grew as a side topic. My last statement on advice for treating ODD, shared only because this is a public thread and the audience is larger than the OP: http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/publication_store/your_child_oppositional_defiant_disorder. Be wary of feeding the cycle. Help is more likely to come from therapy, than an authority crack down.

I'm not sure that the message to the OP is that her child is normal, but rather to discuss what is or isn't authority, and what to do when a child, "normal" or not, is not responding to being told what to do. Rather than be frustrated that the child's response is wrong, you focus on your response and leadership. You can't parent on should's. You can only parent what is. The OP is already seeking intervention.

[NewCovenantMama]

NewCovenantMama, may I share you post with my DH?


Feel free :thumbsup

[ArmsOfLove]

ODD is, when correct, a serious Dx. It is not an anxiety disorder (sorry, Natalie) but anxiety can present in ways similar to ODD behavior. ODD is related to Attention/Focus/Impulse Control grouping. (Attention-deficit and disruptive behavior disorders):think According to my children's specialist and all of my research it it *rooted* in anxiety disorder. When the child becomes anxious they have a *fight* response. Addressing it from the position of an anxiety disorder has been incredibly helpful for my child who has this dx.

I do agree that the issues the OP's child is dealing with are outside of the normal 4yo developmental range :yes I believe she expressed that she is already having him evaluated and already has some elements of a dx :think He does also have an ADHD dx but the anxiety was how we were encouraged to deal with this aspect of it.

Regardless, the same solutions are what you do whether the child is 2 or 4 and struggling with this :yes When there is a special needs dx it's just going to take that longer time. It's frustrating and exhausting, but from what I'm seeing in my older children it's well worth it :heart

[Rabbit]

I learned about ODD first when researching types of anxiety disorders, and it was listed in all of the research I had as one of many types of anxiety disorders.

ADHD and anxiety seem inextricably linked for so many people. I am not surprised to hear that ODD is also an ADHD/impulse disorder, but there was no hint of that in the anxiety research I have read.

[Joanne]

Clinically, ODD is a pre-cursor to Conduct disorder, which is a marker/prescurser for anti-social disorder. It is very serious

Our (therapists, psychologists) use the DSM-IV-TR to diagnose, legally.

http://www.familyfirstaid.org/oppositional-defiant-disorder.html


The DSM-IV-TR View of Oppositional Defiant Disorder
The Diagnostic and Statistics Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) includes Oppositional Defiant Disorder as a subcategory of Attention-deficit and disruptive behavior disorders, along with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, Conduct Disorder, and Disruptive Behavior Disorder NOS (Not Otherwise Specified).
Diagnosing ODD using the DSM-IV-TR criteria, which can only be done by mental health professionals who are qualified to do so,is only after determination that the criteria for Conduct Disorder are not met and, if the person is 18 or older, that criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder are not met.
In that case, the individual must demonstrate a pattern of behavior that has lasted at least 6 months and shown at least four of the following signs or symptoms:
• frequently losing temper
• frequently argues with adults
• frequently defying or refusing to cooperate with the requests or rules of adults
• frequently annoying others on purpose
• frequently scapegoating others for his or her own mistakes or misbehavior
• frequently showing a high degree of sensitivity and touchiness with others
• frequently acting angry (http://www.teenhelp.com/teen-violence/teen-anger-management.html) and resentful
• frequently acting spiteful or vindictive.
In addition, the behavior disturbance must:
• be more frequently that is normal for other individuals of similar age and development;
• cause “clinically significant impairment” in at least one area of life, whether academic, social, or occupational;
• not occur solely as the result of a psychotic disorder or mood disorder.
According to the Surgeon General’s website, Oppositional Defiant Disorder is sometimes considered a “precursor of conduct disorder.”




The medical community uses a different standard:



ICD-10 View of Oppositional Defiant Disorder
The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, 10th Revision (ICD-10) takes a different approach to Oppositional Defiant Disorder than the DSM-IV-TR. It includes it under the category “Behavioral and emotional disorders with onset usually occurring in childhood and adolescence” within the subcategory “Conduct disorders.” The other members of the category are:
• Conduct disorder confined to the family context
• Unsocialized conduct disorder
• Socialized conduct disorder
• Other conduct disorders
• Conduct disorder unspecified.
As you can see, it is the only member of the category that does not have conduct disorder in its name. The subcategory “Conduct disorders” is separate from the following category, called “Mixed disorders of conduct and emotions,” which addresses the limitation in the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria that rules out behavior that is only present in connection with a mood disorder or psychotic disorder.
The ICD-10 diagnosis, which specifically says that it usually occurs in “younger children,” begins with a child meeting the criteria for Conducts disorders generally. This requires that the pattern of behavior–whether dissocial, aggressive, or defiant—be both repetitive and persistent, as well as well outside age-appropriate expectations, and last six months or longer. If the behavior can be explained by a different psychiatric diagnosis, that explanation should be preferred.
Given that those criteria are met, one goes on to the specific Oppositional Defiant Disorder criteria, which limits the characterization of the behaviors to acts that are “defiant, disobedient, disruptive,” but not delinquent, extremely aggressive, or extremely dissocial, nor merely extremely mischievous or naughty.
The Upshot of Differing Understandings
A research study published in 2005 found that some children who were diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder using the criteria of ICD-10 as described above received no DSM-IV diagnosis, and this is a problem. The study suggested ways of addressing the situation.
If this comparison does nothing else, it will hopefully equip parents whose child is being considered for an ODD diagnosis, has been ruled out from having such a diagnosis, or has already received such a diagnosis to be able to discuss the criteria whereby the child’s behavior was analyzed and ask knowledgeable questions.