Struggling

[Bethany89]

My 21 month old is so bad. Positive discipline does not seem to work, or maybe I do things wrong. I know she understands me; she is so smart for her age - too smart! She speaks almost in sentences and understands almost everything I tell her to do. But most of the time, if I say "Caelyn don't do X" she will look at me, laugh and do it and look at me while she does it. I hate it, can't stand that! I remove her from whatever she is doing, so its not the get off your butt part. I will remove her from everything, but she keeps doing it.
I want her to realize.. that doing this thing is wrong.. like standing on the table is wrong, you'll get a booboo - biting the dog is bad. She bites him every time we look away.. Tell me how to fix that one? IDK! Thank God he loves her and doesn't try to bite back!!
I am just struggling because I feel like I am taking pieces of playful parenting when she is having her tantrums and it helps.. but I feel like.. gentle discipline is just teaching her that she has the free range to be as bad as she wants.
My mother keeps saying, spank her butt when she bites the dog.. or.. when she blatantly looks at you and does the opposite of what you said, grab her up and spank her butt.
This is frustrating because I was raised in a house that spanking was the consequence for whatever you did wrong, so I constantly have to check myself; its almost second nature to me as it is how I grew up. I don't have any bad feelings from my parents because of my own spanking.
I suppose... I am looking for advice? Toddlerhood is hard, especially since i am newly pregnant again, working, and in school.. and its like.. when I am home, I want to enjoy being with her, but her tantrums and such are making it to where its not enjoyable and turns into fights.
Also.. some kind of.... sign that this gentle discipline works.. that my kid isn't going to end up being that kid that has no parental discipline and walks all over everyone else and is the spoiled brat.

Feeling defeated today. Very defeated.

[LilacPhoenix]

:hugheart

[beansmama]

When I converted to non-spanking, I had to read a lot of books. A LOT of books. I recomend you start reading books to give you more ideas. I like "Kids are Worth It!" by Barbara Coloroso.

One thing I can recommend is to use "I" sentences, firmly.

"I don't want you to bite the dog. Biting hurts! If you bite the dog, I will hold you in my lap so you can't hurt him/I will put you on the sofa so you can't hurt him (and sit next to her)." is once thing you can say.

If she loves the dog, having the dog removed from her/her from the dog will eventually sting enough that she should see hurting the dog has consequences. I would be very concerned the dog could bite her back. Is that a possibility, and if so, have you told her that?

After I stopped spanking, I realized you have to verbally teach your child repeatedly, just as I used to have to spank repeatedly. She will learn. Parenting is hard, hard, hard. :hugheart

[forty-two]

:hug I find that age - where they start realizing they can do something even though I said no - to be immensely frustrating, too.

Some random thoughts:
*I do differentiate b/w things that are *wrong* - like biting the dog, it's wrong to deliberately hurt living things - and things that are potentially a bad idea but aren't really *wrong*, like standing on the table (which I let my dc do :shifty). I'm not really a fan of raising every unwanted action to a moral wrong :shrug3.

*Saying "don't do x" often just puts doing 'x' to the forefront - like what happens if someone says, "Don't think of a pink elephant" ;). And with littles, no matter how verbal, they are even more likely to just hear "do x", and think they are doing what you said, only to get in trouble for it. I try to say what I *want* them to do, instead - the positive version of don't do x, or an action that prevents them from being able to do x.

*It's hard to remember with a verbal child, but 21mo is still so young - it's unlikely she understands as much as you think. She's still a baby in so many ways.

*Whether spanking or removing, there's a ton of lather, rinse, repeat at this stage. And if a certain action of hers really frustrates you, I find it best to rearrange the environment so that she just can't do it. Like I covered up the buttons on the TV so R couldn't push them, b/c it was so frustrating to remove her every two seconds. I'd be on her like a hawk with the dog, and keep them separated when I couldn't watch that closely. With the table, I'd remove it if I couldn't keep removing her without getting upset.

Try not to focus on your dd being "bad" so much as setting her up for success. She's going to get into things over and over and over - make the things available things that you don't mind her getting into.

:hug

[LilacPhoenix]

Something that DH heard recently has helped both of us. Before disciplining, ask if the behavior is a preference or a sin. And let the answer help determine how to treat the behavior.

[Kiara.I]

Your daughter is 1.5. She sounds totally, totally normal. :hug

She's at the age where she wants to explore *everything*. (By the way, that keeps up, with variations, for the next couple of years. 2.5 is also an interesting age, as is 3.5. ;) )

It does work better to tell her what TO do, rather than what not to do. If I told you to not think about purple-spotted oranges, I bet you'd instantly have a picture of them in your head, trying to figure out whether I meant oranges that were purple, with spots, or oranges that were orange, with purple spots. :giggle Now, *because* you're an adult, you will stop and process for a second, realize that I said "don't", and try to make that happen. Your daughter, though, won't. She's 1.5. She'll just hear the "purple-spotted oranges" part and think about nothing but that.

So, instead of "don't bite the dog" it can be: "Caelyn, gentle touches for the dog." or "Pat with your hands" Teach her what *to* do. Also, at this age, you need to keep her away from the dog for a while. :shrug Can you put a gate between them? Keep the dog in one room and her in a different one? And when you allow them to be together, you need to be right on top of her, coaching her about patting the dog, and physically preventing her from biting. Be practicing patting at other times. Help her to use that on the dog when they are together, and keep them apart when you cannot be *right* on top of her to monitor.

Also, I would encourage you to change your inner "chatter"--you know, they way you think about things.
My 21 month old is so bad.
Telling yourself that your daughter is "bad" will make you *feel* that she is. And therefore make you feel more desperate to "fix" the problem, in any way you can. And, it's just not true! She's not bad, she's 1.5. She's exploring her world, and she does not see any reason that she should not, in any way she chooses! It doesn't make her bad, it makes her very, very, very age-appropriate and normal. :hug

Please think of it in more charitable ways, it will help your interaction. :yes So you can tell yourself "she's learning about how the world works" "she's testing whether what I said before still applies in this case" "she's figuring out which rules are for all the time and which are for only some situations."

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------

Oh yeah, and standing on the table? If it's the kitchen table, I remove them. If it's the coffee table? :shrug Excellent surface to jump off of. :giggle Seriously, I have never figured out a reason they should *not* be on the coffee table, so we allow it.

Some people don't, and that's fine. But for every "rule" you have, do make sure you ask yourself *why* it's a rule. As long as you have a fairly good "why", that's cool. :yes It's just that sometimes in parenting we resort to "because that's the way it's done" and there isn't a real reason behind most of it. So just make sure that sometimes you stop yourself and poke at the idea a bit and figure out *what* your reasons are for the rule. :yes

Oh, and she, at 1.5 has *no* concept of "might get hurt". :no She doesn't care at all, so that's not going to convince her to stop. The only thing that will convince her to stop is repetition, repetition, repetition, and a little bit of growing out of the stage. :giggle

[MarynMunchkins]

Children this age are a lot of work. Period. If you choose to spank, you do a lot of spanking. If you choose time-out, you do a lot of time-out. If you choose to redirect, you do a lot of redirection. If you choose to teach, you do a lot of teaching.

Their brains are forming vast connections for all of life. It will take 100 times of something before all those neural connections are made to the point she can access what you want and the appropriate response. Then she has to deal with her own emotions about the situation, let alone any physical issues (like teething pain, etc.). Expecting someone who has been on this planet less than 2 years and hasn't been able to walk for a year to do all of those things without consistent, hands-on, active help is unreasonable.

Basically, she's normal. :hug Be patient and keep teaching her. Take breaks for your own sanity. You'll figure it out together. :)

[Earthmummy07]

:hug

If you did resort to spanking, you will still being doing it a whole lot. At this age, they WILL just keep doing things. Because that is how their minds work. Spanking doesnt speed up a child's neurological development :hug

The exploring age is *tough*. You're doing great :yes It *will* get better and she *will* learn. But, which ever method you go with, learning is gradual. You are *both* learning at the moment and that's ok :hug

[mountainash]

I'm not saying this judgmentally :hug but I believe the biggest thing you can do to help your daughter is change your perspective of her. She is not bad. I know you know this but it's important to practice saying it. It will ultimately change your response to her. Her behavior is undesirable, yes, but it's also very, very typical of her age. :yes

Start with the assumption that your daughter is a good person doing undesirable things out of a place of immaturity and you'll find it a lot easier to respond graciously. A lot of times we refer to that as assigning positive intent. So when she bites the dog, you can say, she's adventurous and enjoys a thrill instead of suspecting she's a disturbed animal torturer (not that you thought that, but that's the kind of thought that has come to my mind when my children have done similar things :shifty). Then you can focus on preventing the undesirable behavior (perhaps by keeping her separated from the dog unless you're able to focus on enforcing gentle touches) while still fulfilling her need for adventure and excitement (maybe you could engage her in teach the dog a new trick?).

[bolt.]

But most of the time, if I say "Caelyn don't do X" she will look at me, laugh and do it and look at me while she does it.
A 1.5 year old is not supposed to follow instructions. It should not be something you are expecting. It may happen occasionally, and that would be a joyful surprise.

At this stage you should still be in the show-and-tell phase of a small set of 1-or-2 word clear instructions. I'll link you to another post with more detail, but, basically it means that you say an instruction and simultaneously demonstrate what it means, without leaving a pause to see whether or not she might do it. It's just showing her body what the word means.

I hate it, can't stand that! I remove her from whatever she is doing, so its not the get off your butt part. I will remove her from everything, but she keeps doing it.
If you hate it, stop doing it. You are the adult here and you can clearly recognize that your technique is not effective. It's not your child's responsibility to make your discipline techniques effective. It's your job to choose effective techniques.

I want her to realize.. that doing this thing is wrong.. like standing on the table is wrong, you'll get a booboo - biting the dog is bad. She bites him every time we look away.. Tell me how to fix that one?
I hear that you want to be a parent to a child with a moral compass and the ability to predict the results of risky actions.

You can and will be a parent to that kind of a child.

That will be the kind of child you have in 2 to 5 years, when her brain has developed the capacities you would like to see.

Currently you have a 1 year old, approaching two. She is not capable of being the person you wish she was, and she won't be capable of it for a long time. You need to parent her through this developmental stage before you get to the next one.

gentle discipline is just teaching her that she has the free range to be as bad as she wants.
Gentle discipline is supposed to be teaching her that being bad is impossible. Her mother will stop her. Her mother's words are made of concrete. Every instruction her mother gives, her mother's hands make into a reality in her body. Resistance is futile.

This is a critical stage for establishing your authority by being hands-on, as you speak, every time. It is not a stage where children are expected to do as they are told. That's getting ahead of ourselves.

My mother keeps saying, spank her butt when she bites the dog.. or.. when she blatantly looks at you and does the opposite of what you said, grab her up and spank her butt.
Yep. That works. Your daughter will absolutely stop doing everything and anything that causes her terror or pain. She's good at that kind of direct cause and effect. The instinct to avoid pain is stronger than the instinct to explore the world, and it is stronger than the instinct to emotionally bond with her caregiver. It's quick, easy and effective to eliminate misbehavior by making your child frightened of the pain you can and will cause her. It's much more work to teach her that you love her and will guide and teach her in a way that respects her.

Which kind of parenting relationship you prefer to foster with your daughter is one of the most important choices you will ever make.

I don't have any bad feelings from my parents because of my own spanking.
You don't consider the fact that you have an instinctive desire to hit helpless children when they upset you to be a bad feeling that came from the way you were hit by other people as a child?

Toddlerhood is hard, especially since i am newly pregnant again, working, and in school.. and its like.. when I am home, I want to enjoy being with her, but her tantrums and such are making it to where its not enjoyable and turns into fights.
When you share a life with a child, you need to expect her to need parenting. Why else would she need you? She needs adults to work hard to parent her. It's occasionally enjoyable, but mostly it's a one way relationship where you do all the work. You don't have to fight her, but you do have to 'serve' her with your whole heart, giving her the skills, limits and emotional security that she needs in order to grow up into a healthy adult.

She needs you. Every time she shows you that she's not so good at managing her own life and emotions, that's a flag that tells you, "This is why she has a mother. Because small children can't cope with the world without help. Look, she's not coping. She needs help."

Also.. some kind of.... sign that this gentle discipline works.. that my kid isn't going to end up being that kid that has no parental discipline and walks all over everyone else and is the spoiled brat.
The sign that she is not going to be the kind of kid that walks over other people will be when you see that she is about to do that, and you stop her. She's approximately the same size as a large pumpkin. It's obvious that you can simply pick her up and stop her from doing anything you don't want her to be doing.

It's part of the design of children that while they are too young to be expected to limit their own behavior, they are still small enough to be manhandled.

She will grow. Unless she is disabled, she will develop both physically and cognitively. She's not going to grow a giant teenage 1 year old -- she's going to change and begin to co-operate in your relationship and respect your authority (if you establish it by being hands-on any time you need to be... beginning with needing to be hands-on all the time).

You sound like you are ready to be done with all the hard work of parenting ministry -- but your path has just begun. Every year will be different. Every child will be different. As they get older issue X will totally get easier while issue Y will get exponentially harder. This is the way it will be for the next two decades. You are a parent, your work is cut out, and the children who need your leadership are not going anywhere. Every day, they will show you what things they can't yet cope with, and how they need your help to develop new skills. Every day they will show you why God gave children to parents, rather than having them pop out of pea-pods. They need you, and they have every right to need you -- they don't have any other choice.

[jandjmommy]

My mother keeps saying, spank her butt when she bites the dog.. or.. when she blatantly looks at you and does the opposite of what you said, grab her up and spank her butt.
This is frustrating because I was raised in a house that spanking was the consequence for whatever you did wrong, so I constantly have to check myself; its almost second nature to me as it is how I grew up. I don't have any bad feelings from my parents because of my own spanking.


I think it's awesome that you aren't spanking, against your mom's advice (especially as you don't feel angry at your parents for spanking you). That's very, very hard to do!

[FebFaith]

Maybe you could be moving her as you say, "Caelyn, don't do XYZ." Or don't use "don't do ...." and use "let Mommy show you how to play..." Since her looking and you and laughing bothers you, don't give her a chance. Say no as you are moving her! If she starts laughing move on to the tickle game or something she enjoys that will redirect her attention. :hug2 You are a good Mama who wants to do the best for her little girl. I can hear it in your post. You can do this!

[marbles]

I am pregnant also with a 1.5 yr old. Mine is younger than yours but I just wanted to share that everything bolt said, plus the suggestion about questioning the "why" of everything you command, has made a HUGE difference for us. I was falling into expecting a response because I occasionally got one and setting up rules that had no purpose beyond what I wanted to do. Once I decided not to command anything that I was not able to follow through on immediately (excluding dangerous situations, I command and RUN!) and let go of the things that didn't really matter life got so much easier. I know there can be a little voice inside you that insists you must be obeyed at all times no matter what, but it is very freeing to just let go of some expectations and create an environment you can both just relax in.
I would suggest if you don't want to spank then tell your mother to please not suggest it anymore. It isn't helpful to have someone keep telling you to do something you just won't do.

[Keeper-of-Mr.Monks]

OK this thread is helping me ALOT! i am in the EXACT same boat.

[Bethany89]

Thanks ladies. I really needed some help. I feel so defeated sometimes. I know that it will get better. This is my first toddler though lol so this is my first time going through this and experiencing firsthand how trying they can be.

I can't really separate the dog and Caelyn.. just the way our house is set up.. If I gate him off, it separates me from part of the house and its a pain in my butt. Plus.. 90% of the time, they are best friends, playing all day long.. then she goes "doggie bite mommy" and bites him on top of the head. In a split second before I can react. Or.. if I am making her lunch and she is in the room with me, I will look over and she is biting him. IDK.. I have told her that doggie will bite back and.. she is really into crying right now.. she loves when we pretend to cry so she can comfort us.. so I tell her that biting makes Buddy cry and she doesn't want him to cry.. so she says "aww no Buddy, no cry" and hugs him..
Its like.. she doesn't understand that.. biting is painful.. and as I said, my mother's solution is to bite her back because it'll teach her that biting hurts.. but.. yeah I refuse to do that.. Just gonna keep working on it.

I think today.. after I removed her from everything I normally do in an entire day in like a span of an hour, heard my dog cry, watching her kick and scream because I removed the dog from her (he went outside after she bit him), things thrown in the toilet, and just tantrums one after another.. I broke down..
I know I'm not perfect, so I'm going to have these days. And other days.. I just feel so confident in how I parent and can spend an entire wonderful day with her.. Its like a high one day and a terrible low the next lol.

On the bright side, as long as my head cold is gone tomorrow, Andrew and I are going to this imPress parenting conference tomorrow at our church and I am hoping that it is awesome and we learn a lot!
Thanks again for the support :) something I love about GCM is that I can vent like this and get support, not flaming or bashing.. I don't have to worry that I will get put down.. I just get support.. and advice.. and it really helped!

---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

A 1.5 year old is not supposed to follow instructions. It should not be something you are expecting. It may happen occasionally, and that would be a joyful surprise.

At this stage you should still be in the show-and-tell phase of a small set of 1-or-2 word clear instructions. I'll link you to another post with more detail, but, basically it means that you say an instruction and simultaneously demonstrate what it means, without leaving a pause to see whether or not she might do it. It's just showing her body what the word means.


If you hate it, stop doing it. You are the adult here and you can clearly recognize that your technique is not effective. It's not your child's responsibility to make your discipline techniques effective. It's your job to choose effective techniques.


I hear that you want to be a parent to a child with a moral compass and the ability to predict the results of risky actions.

You can and will be a parent to that kind of a child.

That will be the kind of child you have in 2 to 5 years, when her brain has developed the capacities you would like to see.

Currently you have a 1 year old, approaching two. She is not capable of being the person you wish she was, and she won't be capable of it for a long time. You need to parent her through this developmental stage before you get to the next one.


Gentle discipline is supposed to be teaching her that being bad is impossible. Her mother will stop her. Her mother's words are made of concrete. Every instruction her mother gives, her mother's hands make into a reality in her body. Resistance is futile.

This is a critical stage for establishing your authority by being hands-on, as you speak, every time. It is not a stage where children are expected to do as they are told. That's getting ahead of ourselves.


Yep. That works. Your daughter will absolutely stop doing everything and anything that causes her terror or pain. She's good at that kind of direct cause and effect. The instinct to avoid pain is stronger than the instinct to explore the world, and it is stronger than the instinct to emotionally bond with her caregiver. It's quick, easy and effective to eliminate misbehavior by making your child frightened of the pain you can and will cause her. It's much more work to teach her that you love her and will guide and teach her in a way that respects her.

Which kind of parenting relationship you prefer to foster with your daughter is one of the most important choices you will ever make.


You don't consider the fact that you have an instinctive desire to hit helpless children when they upset you to be a bad feeling that came from the way you were hit by other people as a child?


When you share a life with a child, you need to expect her to need parenting. Why else would she need you? She needs adults to work hard to parent her. It's occasionally enjoyable, but mostly it's a one way relationship where you do all the work. You don't have to fight her, but you do have to 'serve' her with your whole heart, giving her the skills, limits and emotional security that she needs in order to grow up into a healthy adult.

She needs you. Every time she shows you that she's not so good at managing her own life and emotions, that's a flag that tells you, "This is why she has a mother. Because small children can't cope with the world without help. Look, she's not coping. She needs help."


The sign that she is not going to be the kind of kid that walks over other people will be when you see that she is about to do that, and you stop her. She's approximately the same size as a large pumpkin. It's obvious that you can simply pick her up and stop her from doing anything you don't want her to be doing.

It's part of the design of children that while they are too young to be expected to limit their own behavior, they are still small enough to be manhandled.

She will grow. Unless she is disabled, she will develop both physically and cognitively. She's not going to grow a giant teenage 1 year old -- she's going to change and begin to co-operate in your relationship and respect your authority (if you establish it by being hands-on any time you need to be... beginning with needing to be hands-on all the time).

You sound like you are ready to be done with all the hard work of parenting ministry -- but your path has just begun. Every year will be different. Every child will be different. As they get older issue X will totally get easier while issue Y will get exponentially harder. This is the way it will be for the next two decades. You are a parent, your work is cut out, and the children who need your leadership are not going anywhere. Every day, they will show you what things they can't yet cope with, and how they need your help to develop new skills. Every day they will show you why God gave children to parents, rather than having them pop out of pea-pods. They need you, and they have every right to need you -- they don't have any other choice.

To the bolded, I don't think I ever thought of it like that TBH. I hear a lot of people say.. that they have terrible memories of their parents beating them.. I don't. I have memories of smarting off to my mother on purpose and getting smacked because of it :O but I did it on purpose because.. I was a mouthy kid lol.. I don't think I ever thought of it like that. Something interested, thank you.
Thanks for your whole post.

[Sonata]

Let's focus for a minute of discipline that is NOT spanking or biting or anything else violent. You are worried that GBD means you have a child who can do whatever they want. I consider myself a GBD mama who is pretty strict with the rules, and my child has better manners than many children his age out there (although I know that's partly his personality). The point is, you can eliminate PUNISHMENT and still have plenty of room for DISCIPLINE.

First of all, pick your battles. Decide what is important to you -- my husband and I spent some calm time together picking our Top Five Family Values. I'm sure they're not the same as yours, but they help me decide if it's REALLY important, or just kind of a general wish.

For instance, for me: hurting the dog = not okay re: family value We Treat Others With Respect and Love. Jumping off the coffee table = not worth a fight. If she gets a boo-boo, she's that much more likely to not do it the next time. :shrug3 I might advise her not to do it, but not fight about it.

So, some actions you can take to show her you're serious about the dog: sit her on the couch and calmly hold her there.
Pick her up and carry her on your hip as you work for a couple minutes.
Pick up or call the dog into the next room and give the DOG a treat and an ear-rub.
Remove her from the dog (across the room, not allowing the dog over), give her a stuffed toy, and talk about how to touch the dog/toy appropriately. When she demonstrates she knows, you can leave her with the real dog again. Repeat as necessary. (yes, it will be 700 times. The point is that it gets boring to get yanked from your game to practice petting a stuffed dog; she'll figure out that you're serious.)

When the object is not a dog, take away the object. Throwing blocks? No more blocks, but you may throw this soft ball. Hitting furniture with a toy? Take away the toy. Standing on a book? The book is gone. Shall we play outside? You don't need to accompany it with a lecture; you can calmly say "that will hurt the couch/book/me/whatever. You may have this back when you remember to be gentle." If an tantrum ensues, a simple response "oh, that was not gentle. We will try again tomorrow and see if you remember to be gentle." Period. No more engaging and arguing.


These reactions and consequences shouldn't need to be the main part of your parenting -- you also have redirection and playful parenting and ignoring and positive reinforcement and modelling and so many other things. I am just helping offer some ideas that can be calm, but also firm and clear, to help guide your child.
:heart:heart:heart

Good luck! You're making great steps already!