Scholarly/Theologically based book recommendations PLEASE!

[iheartsam]

I can't believe I'm needing to post here. :sigh BIG blow-up with dh re:what scripture says about punishment and spanking (OT God punished Isreal stuff, Hebrews 10, some others I can't remember :shifty). I thought we were done talking about this issue. He has never spanked our kids and he has said that he won't. And I totally believe him. BUT he doesn't believe that people shouldn't and thinks the Bible doesn't say it's wrong. I think he may think it says it's ok. :( I have learned from this that I have not been reading my Bible enough lately. I needed to have scriptures in my heart. I needed to be able to give a defense for what I believe and I couldn't in that moment.

He's totally devoted to Christ, which is awesome. He's smart. Also awesome. He's seminary trained. This is good but I can't compete with the amount of time he spends studying greek and his greek new testament. How much time he's spent researching scriptures for papers. And reading, reading, reading! He reads all the time! If we had the money, he'd be getting his doctorate in New Testament studies (which is mostly studying greek). I don't read all the time! I chase kids around and make everything from scratch (GAPS diet) since ds has food allergies. I need SCHOLARLY resource recommendations please! And I need to read my Bible. :yes3

I hope this came out ok. I should be sleeping. :shifty :yawn

[PlateauMama]

I have no ideas. But I think it's a great sign that he agrees not to spank your own kids, and praying that you find something that will help him to understand why it's really not okay.

[Katigre]

I would stop trying to change his mind - let him be. He has agreed not to spank your children, which is what matters most IMO.

In discussions with him, I would focus more on brainstorming what good discipline looks like vs. 'not spanking'. What is the purpose of discipline? How do kids learn best? How does he learn hard lessons best and change his course/behavior? What kind of discipline exemplifies and builds the fruit of the spirit vs. embitters children or is overly harsh (as the bible warns against)? Work on building a grace-based paradigm :yes.

I think what you would hope for is this: He sees that the Bible does not mandate spanking, that physical hitting is not required for training up children.

The other stuff - "The Bible shows spanking to be wrong" "Spanking is anti-biblical" "God doesn't want you to spank" etc... are all moving outside the realm of what is in Scripture into theological matters that IMO are not clear cut - you're not going to be able to prooftext this one. I don't personally see a problem with him saying "I don't think spanking is always wrong for others but we don't do it in our family out of respect for my wife" - I think that is a very loving and respectful position toward you :heart.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 AM ----------

Here are two additional resources:
1. http://goybparenting.com/?p=52
2. http://www.amazon.com/Heartfelt-Discipline-Gentle-Training-Guiding/dp/1578565839/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320845545&sr=8-1 has a section on the Rod verses/Proverbs where he comes to the conclusion that spanking isn't biblically mandated (which IMO is the furthest claim I would make on this topic Scripturally - everything else falls into the realm of personal conviction and sociology/cultural standards)
3. I can send you a podcast by my pastor doing a sermon on Hebrews 12 (he is very conservative evangelically, with a PhD from a very conservative seminary, and he does not believe spanking is biblically mandated and has a good interpretation of Hebrews 12 and discipline). PM me if you'd like the link :).

[Cook]

I tend to think trying to convince him that others are wrong might make it hard to reserve judgement of them... It's a slippery slope. I can see *why* you'd wanna discuss that with an awesome Godly husband ;) But I think focusing on the scripture that you feel convicted about, and even studying with him together to explain why you don't agree with the things he's finding might be productive, meet that desire to connect on God's Word, but also not get you in a mind frame to be forgetting that others are on a journey too. Of course all that is based on a belief that God chooses to reveal parts/depths of His Word to us in different ways at different times. It has been hard building faith that even though we are in different places, we can all be "right" in God's eyes. I tend to love debates ;)

[Llee]

What she said. Spanking isn't Biblically mandated, but it's not a sin. Dh and I are convicted to not do it, so if *we* spanked, it would be a sin for us.

[NewCovenantMama]

You might find this helpful, by Samuel Martin
http://www.biblechild.com/

This article contains extracts from Martin's book, and explains why it's impossible to take the "rod scriptures" as a command to spank.
http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/


It might be worth pointing out that the "discipline" referred to in Hebrews 12 was persecution, not punishment.

HTH

Emma

[Katigre]

One other thing I would bring up is this:

The Bible doesn't talk about spanking young children on their bottom :no. It talks about striking the back with a hard rod for teenage boys who are out of line (this is in line with what middle eastern culture can be like even today - teenage boys can get very harsh beatings from their fathers).

So I would ask him this - does he support teenagers being beaten on their backs for stepping out of line? Does he think that is biblical and would he be ok with a member of his church regularly beating his 14 year old son?

[bolt.]

You have to understand where he is coming from. "forbidden in scripture" is a strong statement that is hard to absolutely prove at the scholarly level even about the most clear cut things. For example, one could not technically prove that embezzlement is forbidden in scripture.

It would also have drastic implications for church history. If it has always been forbidden, all prior theologians who chose spanking were in sin and rebellion of lifestyle against the clear counsel of scripture, therefore their work and their very salvation is now suspect.

The tactic to take is more of the "seems like the way of godliness" way. That's easy to prove. Does Jesus seem to be for or against interpersonal violence, generally speaking? Does the nt talk about children? If so, in what way: expecting hardness or tenderness of parents? Are we 'like God' to our children? In what ways? Even if He punishes, can we presume to those rights? If parenting is leadership, what kind of leadership is godly? Do the one-another commands apply only to adult relationships? On what is that presumed limitation based? When Jesus says 'the least of these' is it possible that children are a part of that concept? Is it possible for a person to be hit, regularly, without being 'provoked' in some way? Is the parent held accountable for that possible response to parenting choices, or is it an inappropriate reaction in the child?

To a scholar there is a wide gap between something being reasonable and something being proven. To refrain from spanking is very scripturally reasonable. It is not proven.

[iheartsam]

I would stop trying to change his mind - let him be. He has agreed not to spank your children, which is what matters most IMO.

In discussions with him, I would focus more on brainstorming what good discipline looks like vs. 'not spanking'. What is the purpose of discipline? How do kids learn best? How does he learn hard lessons best and change his course/behavior? What kind of discipline exemplifies and builds the fruit of the spirit vs. embitters children or is overly harsh (as the bible warns against)? Work on building a grace-based paradigm :yes.

I think what you would hope for is this: He sees that the Bible does not mandate spanking, that physical hitting is not required for training up children.

The other stuff - "The Bible shows spanking to be wrong" "Spanking is anti-biblical" "God doesn't want you to spank" etc... are all moving outside the realm of what is in Scripture into theological matters that IMO are not clear cut - you're not going to be able to prooftext this one. I don't personally see a problem with him saying "I don't think spanking is always wrong for others but we don't do it in our family out of respect for my wife" - I think that is a very loving and respectful position toward you :heart.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 AM ----------

Here are two additional resources:
1. http://goybparenting.com/?p=52
2. http://www.amazon.com/Heartfelt-Discipline-Gentle-Training-Guiding/dp/1578565839/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320845545&sr=8-1 has a section on the Rod verses/Proverbs where he comes to the conclusion that spanking isn't biblically mandated (which IMO is the furthest claim I would make on this topic Scripturally - everything else falls into the realm of personal conviction and sociology/cultural standards)
3. I can send you a podcast by my pastor doing a sermon on Hebrews 12 (he is very conservative evangelically, with a PhD from a very conservative seminary, and he does not believe spanking is biblically mandated and has a good interpretation of Hebrews 12 and discipline). PM me if you'd like the link :).

See, I wasn't trying to convince him. He brought it up this time. He wanted me to watch to a John Piper video about discipline and spanking. I felt like he was trying to convince me that spanking was ok. I *know* that GD is more than just "not spanking" but in this particular instance I felt like he was trying to scripturally prove that the specific act of spanking is ok under the umbrella of punishment. But I think I will change my focus to showing that spanking isn't Biblically mandated. :yes And yes, he has been very loving and respectful of my very strong feelings on the subject. I have not always been respectful towards him in this regard and that needs to change. :yes3

I tend to think trying to convince him that others are wrong might make it hard to reserve judgement of them... It's a slippery slope. I can see *why* you'd wanna discuss that with an awesome Godly husband ;) But I think focusing on the scripture that you feel convicted about, and even studying with him together to explain why you don't agree with the things he's finding might be productive, meet that desire to connect on God's Word, but also not get you in a mind frame to be forgetting that others are on a journey too. Of course all that is based on a belief that God chooses to reveal parts/depths of His Word to us in different ways at different times. It has been hard building faith that even though we are in different places, we can all be "right" in God's eyes. I tend to love debates ;)

I am guilty of judging others in my heart. :( I really need a change of heart. That will come when I get back into his Word. :heart

What she said. Spanking isn't Biblically mandated, but it's not a sin. Dh and I are convicted to not do it, so if *we* spanked, it would be a sin for us.

This is the problem. It is such a black and white issue for me. I'm not sure I can say that I believe that spanking is not a sin. Maybe that's wrong. It goes back to the judgement issue maybe? Just thinking out loud...

[bolt.]

There are two ways of highlighting what is and isn't sin.

First are the sins that are specifically and clearly defined, usually in both testaments, and easily comprehended. These are actions which are always in rebellion against God, because God has made it clear that they are not His will for us.

Second is the fact that we have a personal relationship with God who is our rightful ruler. He is sometimes going to give us instructions. If we grasp these instructions, yet disobey them, we have rebelled, and that is a sin.

These second-type of sins are sometimes called 'convictions' or 'sins of conscience' -- they are the sins that might not universally be sin for all times and places, but they definitely are sins in the person who has been so-instructed by their God should happen to choose to deny God's right to give them instructions.

However they are a grey area, because God is a relational God, and He might be on an entirely different agenda with another person. Those who have not been instructed are not rebelling if they don't follow an instruction that they have not been given.

In gentle discipline, I think there is space for a person who thinks (based on the Bible's scope of imagery regarding punishment), "If it is possible to raise children well, in a disciplined way, without hitting, shaming or punishing them in ways unrelated to true consequences -- it is clearly the godly thing to try to do so. So I'm going to learn and keep learning, to try and keep on trying. If, in theory it should happen to turn out that, such a quest proves impossible, it would be theoretically better to apply punishments than to leave children without limits entirely."

And since it is clear from both evidence and research studies that it is indeed possible for diligent parents to raise children well without being punitive -- then it is proven to be not-impossible. So, one can retain the theoretical viewpoint that some people (in undeveloped nations, with mental handicaps, in times of crisis etc.) might need to choose punishment over free-reign... that we certainly don't need to, and if we find ourselves doing so, it is not because it is the Biblical thing to do, but because it is the easier thing to do, the fallen and broken thing to do, the human thing to do.

[ArmsOfLove]

I do address the meanings of words in Hebrew and lots of other stuff in the books and on the aolff.org site. If he would like to dialogue with me I'd be open to it--I can also put him in touch with Samuel Martin.

[iheartsam]

I do address the meanings of words in Hebrew and lots of other stuff in the books and on the aolff.org site. If he would like to dialogue with me I'd be open to it--I can also put him in touch with Samuel Martin.

Thank-you Crystal. :hug I have your book. We've both read it. I just ordered some more books and will be looking over your site as well. If I'm feeling stuck after my reading, I may ask if he's interested in dialoguing with you or Mr. Martin. I also ordered his book, Families where Grace is in Place, How to Really Love Your Child, and this one, "Corporal Punishment in the Bible: A Redemptive-Movement Hermeneutic for troubling texts" which I think will be a very interesting read. http://www.amazon.com/Corporal-Punishment-Bible-Redemptive-Movement-Hermeneutic/dp/0830827617/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320875578&sr=8-1

He really gravitates towards New Testament passages given his studies, so I will be trying to focus on NT scriptures that provide a "grace-based paradigm", as Katigre put it. :)

Bolt, thank-you for our input. I love your series of questions in your first response and respect your opinion. I want to respond but am finding it's taking me a long time to formulate responses to your responses. :shifty :giggle

Thank-you ladies. :grouphug

[mystweaver]

I heard William Webb share a presentation that included his views on spanking, and it was very good. :yes I have his first book, and I hope to get the one you linked soon.