DH: They need consequences!

[jandjmommy]

DS7 hit DD5 on the arm on the way to the pumpkin patch [unusual]. I turned around when I heard the slap and saw the look on DS's face -- surprise and instant regret -- and he immediately apologized. DH was driving, so the distraction of the fight bothered him more than it did me, and he told DS that he'd have to stay in the car at the pumpkin patch while DD and I went.
Long story short, DH changed his mind by the time we got there, so we all went in together.
While the kids played, I told DH that banning DS from the pumpkin patch had nothing to do with hitting his sister. He said, "They need consequences!" As far as I can see, in the specific situation, the crisis was over. DS hit, then stopped fighting, and sincerely apologized. There wasn't a reason to separate the kids -- they weren't fighting anymore. So yes, there are natural consequences, and there are imposed consequences, and I get that. But we consistently have situations crop up that I feel have been resolved and learned from (not that the problem will never be repeated), but DH feels requires a consequence.
How do you decide whether to let them (or help them) learn just by experiencing the mistake, cleaning it up as best they can, and moving on, or enforce a consequence?

[aleigh]

I don't know that I have much helpful to say, but I DO think it's awesome that your DS pretty instantly felt regret for hitting his sister & apologized on his own. I think that takes a lot of maturity & sensitivity. I think it's a wonderful thing to see my kids "work it out"!

[3boysforme]

Does your DH want a consequence or a punishment? Because those are two seperate things.



I have the same issue with my DBF, he is really struggling with no punishment= no consequence/"getting away with it".

[ArmsOfLove]

Your dh isn't asking for consequences--he's seeking vengeance. I would remind him that vengeance is God's. It's great he feels protective of his child--but it can't be properly enacted on one child for the benefit of the other. That is to interject himself in an unhealthy way into the relationship. And I'm not jumping on your dh--we all have this reaction at some time or another :) These are opportunities for US to experience discipline :heart

Nothing in Scripture says you *need* consequences. You *need* discipline--teaching. So you teach in those situations--except when you see prior teaching being practiced and then you :clap and validate the healthy response to the situation :tu

[PaperMomma]

:cup

[jandjmommy]

Does your DH want a consequence or a punishment? Because those are two seperate things.



I have the same issue with my DBF, he is really struggling with no punishment= no consequence/"getting away with it".
He means punishment, but is willing to tweak it to consequence with coaching :) He sees no punishment/consequence as "not doing anything" or "getting away with it."

Your dh isn't asking for consequences--he's seeking vengeance. I would remind him that vengeance is God's. It's great he feels protective of his child--but it can't be properly enacted on one child for the benefit of the other. That is to interject himself in an unhealthy way into the relationship. And I'm not jumping on your dh--we all have this reaction at some time or another :) These are opportunities for US to experience discipline :heart

Nothing in Scripture says you *need* consequences. You *need* discipline--teaching. So you teach in those situations--except when you see prior teaching being practiced and then you :clap and validate the healthy response to the situation :tu
Great point on vengeance and overstepping -- will use that! I asked him to name one time he stopped doing something as a kid because he got punished for it -- Nothing? More like you hid it, lied about it, resented the punishment/punisher and completely forgot the misdeed, or acted out in response to the punishment -- not one response is what we're going for.

So back to deciding what can be trained with a few words or a reminder, and what actually needs a consequence? Example: During trick or treating last night, we went over the way to trick or treat: knock or ring *once*, say "trick or treat", and say thank you. DD forgot to say thanks twice in the beginning, (reminded before going up to the house each time), so I told her that she could start saying thanks at each house, or stay back with Mommy & Daddy while brother went to get his treats until she felt like she could thank the people who wanted to give her candy. After that she thanked everyone loud and clear each and every time. Did we handle that situation appropriately? I tried not to wrap a threat as a direction, but the potential consequence was definitely presented. Is there another way we could have gotten her to say thanks? She's not shy, is normally super polite, and it seemed she was just forgetting in the excitement, but simple reminders weren't working.

[3boysforme]

He means punishment, but is willing to tweak it to consequence with coaching :) He sees no punishment/consequence as "not doing anything" or "getting away with it."


Great point on vengeance and overstepping -- will use that! I asked him to name one time he stopped doing something as a kid because he got punished for it -- Nothing? More like you hid it, lied about it, resented the punishment/punisher and completely forgot the misdeed, or acted out in response to the punishment -- not one response is what we're going for.

So back to deciding what can be trained with a few words or a reminder, and what actually needs a consequence? Example: During trick or treating last night, we went over the way to trick or treat: knock or ring *once*, say "trick or treat", and say thank you. DD forgot to say thanks twice in the beginning, (reminded before going up to the house each time), so I told her that she could start saying thanks at each house, or stay back with Mommy & Daddy while brother went to get his treats until she felt like she could thank the people who wanted to give her candy. After that she thanked everyone loud and clear each and every time. Did we handle that situation appropriately? I tried not to wrap a threat as a direction, but the potential consequence was definitely presented. Is there another way we could have gotten her to say thanks? She's not shy, is normally super polite, and it seemed she was just forgetting in the excitement, but simple reminders weren't working.


To be completely honest, I would have let it go. I can promise you she was forgetting in the moment because she was 1. excited and 2. 5. Simple reminders would have been fine.

[DavidKelleyMay18]

To be completely honest, I would have let it go. I can promise you she was forgetting in the moment because she was 1. excited and 2. 5. Simple reminders would have been fine.

I agree here. Do you know while at the door giving out candy how many times I heard moms say to the kids don't forget to say thank-you!! I'm still having trouble with GCM, but now when things happen my 1st thought how do I GCM this situation. You'll get there!!! All we can do is to keep trying. Not sure if this will help, but I bought a journaling notebook. Anytime that anyone on here has a good suggestion on my post or in someone else's post I write what it's about in my journal. I forget a lot especially being a mom of 5. I forget how to handle some situations. Actually after coming off here, and need to see how to handle my child saying no to me in my GCM journal book.

HTH
Kelley

[jujubnme]

He means punishment, but is willing to tweak it to consequence with coaching :) He sees no punishment/consequence as "not doing anything" or "getting away with it."

But with GBD you aren't "doing nothing," even if you don't impose any consequences or punishment. You are assessing the situation, making sure that forgiveness and amends take place and the issue at hand is resolved. Then you discern whether your child needs help learning different skills, attitudes, etc. for future situations, and find a way to teach them in a way your child will get. We just think that punishment and, in many cases, imposed consequences aren't the best way to teach what children need to learn (and in fact can be more harmful than helpful in the long run). :shrug3

"Getting away with it" would equal the parent ignoring the situation. That is not GBD. :no

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

I want to add a couple of thoughts.

First, that you shouldn't discount the power of natural consequences of behavior. In your first example with your ds, he saw the pained expression on his sister, probably surprise/anger/disappointment on you and your dh, and felt *bad* for what he did. That guilty feeling is a natural consequence, and it led your ds to apologize and stop fighting! His conscience worked! Perhaps he can use further coaching on how to deal with anger or conflict with his sister for the future, or perhaps he needed some coaching on how to take the next step with his sister to help restore her trust and good will. But it sounds to me like a lesson was learned in the moment and that in and of itself will help weigh on his mind the next time a similar situation comes up.

My second thought was that you may find you do need to make changes that might be considered "imposed consequences" when determining how to teach and set your children up for success in the future. So, a toy that can't be played with well gets put up for a time or some activity gets cancelled, not because you're trying to punish or make your children feel bad, but because they're not ready to deal with them in a positive way.

And, FTR, I had to remind my 10-year-old to say thank you when trick-or-treating last night. :doh

[Kiara.I]

Example: During trick or treating last night, we went over the way to trick or treat: knock or ring *once*, say "trick or treat", and say thank you. DD forgot to say thanks twice in the beginning, (reminded before going up to the house each time), so I told her that she could start saying thanks at each house, or stay back with Mommy & Daddy while brother went to get his treats until she felt like she could thank the people who wanted to give her candy.

I would have just kept reminding her. Or maybe stopped her between houses for a bit of a chat and said something like, "Remember, you need to thank people. After they give you a treat for your bag, what do you need to say? Right!"

Telling her she'd have to miss a *huge* treat because of a two-word omission is...well...that's a pretty big deal. I guess to me it seems a bit on the scale of taking away your drivers' license for a year if you forget to signal a lane change three times...perhaps because you're distracted by the children talking, for instance.

[CCmomma]

I pretty much reminded DD at every.single.house to say thank you. Before she went up the steps I would just say don't forget to say thank you! She must have been listening because at one point she said "And Thank You for Ben too!" Ben is her friend who was with us and had already said thank you!:giggle

For me, the difference between punishment and consequences is such a hard thing to keep in mind. I have to really think about what I am saying/doing before I make a move. And for DH it is really hard, he just doesn't always know what to do so he jumps to random punishments that have nothing to do with what is happening.

[jandjmommy]

But with GBD you aren't "doing nothing," even if you don't impose any consequences or punishment. You are assessing the situation, making sure that forgiveness and amends take place and the issue at hand is resolved. Then you discern whether your child needs help learning different skills, attitudes, etc. for future situations, and find a way to teach them in a way your child will get. We just think that punishment and, in many cases, imposed consequences aren't the best way to teach what children need to learn (and in fact can be more harmful than helpful in the long run). :shrug3

"Getting away with it" would equal the parent ignoring the situation. That is not GBD. :no

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

I want to add a couple of thoughts.

First, that you shouldn't discount the power of natural consequences of behavior. In your first example with your ds, he saw the pained expression on his sister, probably surprise/anger/disappointment on you and your dh, and felt *bad* for what he did. That guilty feeling is a natural consequence, and it led your ds to apologize and stop fighting! His conscience worked! Perhaps he can use further coaching on how to deal with anger or conflict with his sister for the future, or perhaps he needed some coaching on how to take the next step with his sister to help restore her trust and good will. But it sounds to me like a lesson was learned in the moment and that in and of itself will help weigh on his mind the next time a similar situation comes up.


My second thought was that you may find you do need to make changes that might be considered "imposed consequences" when determining how to teach and set your children up for success in the future. So, a toy that can't be played with well gets put up for a time or some activity gets cancelled, not because you're trying to punish or make your children feel bad, but because they're not ready to deal with them in a positive way.

And, FTR, I had to remind my 10-year-old to say thank you when trick-or-treating last night. :doh
Thanks -- really great ideas! I love "coaching" -- will also present that to DH as an alternative to punishment/consequences/even discipline since for us [growing up] "discipline" meant "punishment".
"So, a toy that can't be played with well gets put up for a time or some activity gets cancelled, not because you're trying to punish or make your children feel bad, but because they're not ready to deal with them in a positive way." Confused about this, though [see below]

I would have just kept reminding her. Or maybe stopped her between houses for a bit of a chat and said something like, "Remember, you need to thank people. After they give you a treat for your bag, what do you need to say? Right!"

Telling her she'd have to miss a *huge* treat because of a two-word omission is...well...that's a pretty big deal. I guess to me it seems a bit on the scale of taking away your drivers' license for a year if you forget to signal a lane change three times...perhaps because you're distracted by the children talking, for instance.

As for the trick or treating, now I'm more confused than ever! When we go to the grocery store, the kids like to get a free cookie from the bakery. I remind them each time to say "Excuse me?" to get the baker's attention, then "May I please have a cookie?" then "Thank you!" If they don't say thanks, I will hold the cookie until they go back and thank the baker. Saying "thank you" is part and parcel of getting the cookie. I feel like that's in keeping with GBD [for my kids; requiring that of a kid who doesn't like talking to strangers may be a different story.]
What is it that makes telling DD that if she doesn't thank people for Halloween treats that she'll need to stay back with us [at the sidewalk, not at home] until she's ready to start saying thanks? Is it that Halloween is a once a year big deal? Because that seems totally permissive to me -- like I can't risk ruining her holiday by requiring the same basic behavior I require on "normal" days. If my son fights with his friend on a regular day, the friend goes home and that's GBD; but if he fights with his friend at his own birthday party, the friend goes home and I'm punitive?

I pretty much reminded DD at every.single.house to say thank you. Before she went up the steps I would just say don't forget to say thank you! She must have been listening because at one point she said "And Thank You for Ben too!" Ben is her friend who was with us and had already said thank you!:giggle

For me, the difference between punishment and consequences is such a hard thing to keep in mind. I have to really think about what I am saying/doing before I make a move. And for DH it is really hard, he just doesn't always know what to do so he jumps to random punishments that have nothing to do with what is happening.
Cute story! Yep, we still reminded her every time, the problem was her forgetting in the 15 seconds between leaving us on the sidewalk and getting the treat.
"doesn't always know what to do so he jumps to random punishments that have nothing to do with what is happening." -- I still do this sometimes, but I retract them as gracefully as I can :) DH doesn't like to retract because it's "backing down", so I've asked him to just not say anything until he can gather his thoughts -- helping already!

[3boysforme]

As for the trick or treating, now I'm more confused than ever! When we go to the grocery store, the kids like to get a free cookie from the bakery. I remind them each time to say "Excuse me?" to get the baker's attention, then "May I please have a cookie?" then "Thank you!" If they don't say thanks, I will hold the cookie until they go back and thank the baker. Saying "thank you" is part and parcel of getting the cookie. I feel like that's in keeping with GBD [for my kids; requiring that of a kid who doesn't like talking to strangers may be a different story.]
What is it that makes telling DD that if she doesn't thank people for Halloween treats that she'll need to stay back with us [at the sidewalk, not at home] until she's ready to start saying thanks? Is it that Halloween is a once a year big deal? Because that seems totally permissive to me -- like I can't risk ruining her holiday by requiring the same basic behavior I require on "normal" days. If my son fights with his friend on a regular day, the friend goes home and that's GBD; but if he fights with his friend at his own birthday party, the friend goes home and I'm punitive?

The reason for *me* things like Halloween and birthday parties are different is because the enviroment is different. There is far more stimulus on Halloween (kids in costumes, going from house to house, and all the candy(!!!!), that I really do not expect my children to remember the basic, every day rules. Of course I am not letting them run crazy, and not say thank you and all of that but I do have extra grace because this is a special circumstance.

This is what I would have done for the trick or treat scenario. I would remind them as we walk up the house to say thank you, and then after they receive the treat, prompt them to say thank you. After a few times it becomes habit and they remember to do it 98% of the time.

[Kiara.I]

The reason for *me* things like Halloween and birthday parties are different is because the enviroment is different. There is far more stimulus on Halloween (kids in costumes, going from house to house, and all the candy(!!!!), that I really do not expect my children to remember the basic, every day rules. Of course I am not letting them run crazy, and not say thank you and all of that but I do have extra grace because this is a special circumstance.

:up Yes, this is the thing. A time of over-stimulus is sometimes a time for extra grace. It's a bit like the HALT thing, right? Hunger can cause lapses in behaviour. So can Anger. Loneliness. Tiredness. Oh, and major over-excitement. ;) It's fine to still require the behaviour, of course, but that's why I'd just be prompting more often instead of doing a "until you can do it you won't participate" version.

Also, in a high-stimulus environment it can be entirely appropriate to take a break to regroup and help the child re-center and then go over expectations again. It's just that in your scenario you were proposing to have the sibling carry on having fun and have her *miss* it while doing that regroup. In a case like a birthday party, where it's a time-based thing, that just has to happen. But for something like ToT-ing, it's a number-of-houses based thing, and she'd be missing out on some of the candy the sibling gets because the sibling carried on without her--and that would be really hard for her. Instead you can make it a "whole family works as a team" thing. Whole family takes a break to go over expectations and regroup. You could even ask them to brainstorm ideas for helping her remember--asking kids for solutions to problems works really well (see How to Talk so Kids Will Listen). Some solutions might be you prompting her, or brother prompting her, that kind of thing.

DH doesn't like to retract because it's "backing down", so I've asked him to just not say anything until he can gather his thoughts -- helping already!

The other thing to consider (and you may want to wait a while before introducing this to your husband, or he might be ready for it now--use your judgment) is that if an adult makes a mistake they need to apologize to the child for it. So if he *does* make one of those knee-jerk pronouncements that's not reasonable, and then realizes it, he can approach the child(ren) and say, "You know what, sweetie? I spoke in anger and I didn't think it through first. I was wrong. I'm very sorry to have spoken to you hurtfully and given an unreasonable consequence. I should have thought first. Please forgive me. ... Now, here's what happened (situation that started it) What we should have done was this, and here's what will happen now."

It's actually really important for kids to know that parents can mess up too *and admit it.* The kids *already* know when the parents have messed up. They just know. :yes But if you try to cover it up and be right all the time, you lose credibility with the kids. If you model admitting your faults, taking responsibility for them, and making reparation, it's a very positive thing. :yes

[ArmsOfLove]

So back to deciding what can be trained with a few words or a reminder, and what actually needs a consequence? The answer to *both* is neither. :) Teaching most children requires LOTS Of repitition so while this or that *might* need nothing more than a few words or a reminder, that is not something reasonable to expect *at all*. And I would not at all suggest relying on "consequences" because that is a ripe field for punitive thinking to fester and pop up unexpected.

Try this idea instead--it is our responsibility as parents to teach these little people entrusted to us by God *EVERYTHING* they need to know by the time they are adults to 1) love and worship Him and 2) love their neighbor and 3) successfully navigate our culture.

Example: During trick or treating last night, we went over the way to trick or treat: knock or ring *once*, say "trick or treat", and say thank you. DD forgot to say thanks twice in the beginning, (reminded before going up to the house each time), so I told her that she could start saying thanks at each house, or stay back with Mommy & Daddy while brother went to get his treats until she felt like she could thank the people who wanted to give her candy. After that she thanked everyone loud and clear each and every time. Did we handle that situation appropriately? I tried not to wrap a threat as a direction, but the potential consequence was definitely presented. Is there another way we could have gotten her to say thanks? She's not shy, is normally super polite, and it seemed she was just forgetting in the excitement, but simple reminders weren't working. Drop off any reality of a potential consequence and you'd be fine--she's young. Remind her. You cannot expect perfection as a goal and people forget things. Young people forget doubly :)

Presenting a consequence about something like that is really a threat. "Do what we've said or else you will suffer." :( why do that over being polite while trick or treating?

[jandjmommy]

:up Yes, this is the thing. A time of over-stimulus is sometimes a time for extra grace. It's a bit like the HALT thing, right? Hunger can cause lapses in behaviour. So can Anger. Loneliness. Tiredness. Oh, and major over-excitement. ;) It's fine to still require the behaviour, of course, but that's why I'd just be prompting more often instead of doing a "until you can do it you won't participate" version.
***HALTMOE :) ***
Also, in a high-stimulus environment it can be entirely appropriate to take a break to regroup and help the child re-center and then go over expectations again. It's just that in your scenario you were proposing to have the sibling carry on having fun and have her *miss* it while doing that regroup. In a case like a birthday party, where it's a time-based thing, that just has to happen. But for something like ToT-ing, it's a number-of-houses based thing, and she'd be missing out on some of the candy the sibling gets because the sibling carried on without her--and that would be really hard for her. Instead you can make it a "whole family works as a team" thing. Whole family takes a break to go over expectations and regroup. You could even ask them to brainstorm ideas for helping her remember--asking kids for solutions to problems works really well (see How to Talk so Kids Will Listen). Some solutions might be you prompting her, or brother prompting her, that kind of thing.

***Wouldn't taking a family break punish DS, who was not having an issue and was trying to help DD remember?***

The other thing to consider (and you may want to wait a while before introducing this to your husband, or he might be ready for it now--use your judgment) is that if an adult makes a mistake they need to apologize to the child for it. So if he *does* make one of those knee-jerk pronouncements that's not reasonable, and then realizes it, he can approach the child(ren) and say, "You know what, sweetie? I spoke in anger and I didn't think it through first. I was wrong. I'm very sorry to have spoken to you hurtfully and given an unreasonable consequence. I should have thought first. Please forgive me. ... Now, here's what happened (situation that started it) What we should have done was this, and here's what will happen now."

It's actually really important for kids to know that parents can mess up too *and admit it.* The kids *already* know when the parents have messed up. They just know. :yes But if you try to cover it up and be right all the time, you lose credibility with the kids. If you model admitting your faults, taking responsibility for them, and making reparation, it's a very positive thing. :yes
***Yes, apologies happen for sure! Didn't mean to come off like we pull a spontaneous consequence without admitting our mistakes!***
The answer to *both* is neither. :) Teaching most children requires LOTS Of repitition so while this or that *might* need nothing more than a few words or a reminder, that is not something reasonable to expect *at all*. And I would not at all suggest relying on "consequences" because that is a ripe field for punitive thinking to fester and pop up unexpected.

Try this idea instead--it is our responsibility as parents to teach these little people entrusted to us by God *EVERYTHING* they need to know by the time they are adults to 1) love and worship Him and 2) love their neighbor and 3) successfully navigate our culture.

Drop off any reality of a potential consequence and you'd be fine--she's young. Remind her. You cannot expect perfection as a goal and people forget things. Young people forget doubly :)

Presenting a consequence about something like that is really a threat. "Do what we've said or else you will suffer." :( why do that over being polite while trick or treating?

I feel like I'm getting it [avoiding consequences at all whenever possible] but we have a lot of high excitement experiences -- honestly, trick or treating was the part of Halloween DD was the least interested in; she wanted to go on to the carnival. I do understand providing extra grace in stimulating situations, but for us that would mean that we expect them to function within boundaries only about half the time. Isn't it more confusing to a kid not to know whether a situation/excursion is different enough from normal life that Mom & Dad won't require normal life behavior? And what counts as eventful enough to let more things go? Park? Play date? Disneyland? Art class? Trip to Toys R Us? They get nearly as excited about being pushed around in the double cart at Target as they do at Disneyland, so how to decide when to let issues go?

[Zooey]

Your dh isn't asking for consequences--he's seeking vengeance. I would remind him that vengeance is God's. It's great he feels protective of his child--but it can't be properly enacted on one child for the benefit of the other. That is to interject himself in an unhealthy way into the relationship. And I'm not jumping on your dh--we all have this reaction at some time or another :) These are opportunities for US to experience discipline :heart

Nothing in Scripture says you *need* consequences. You *need* discipline--teaching. So you teach in those situations--except when you see prior teaching being practiced and then you :clap and validate the healthy response to the situation :tu
What Crystal said.

[bolt.]

I do understand providing extra grace in stimulating situations, but for us that would mean that we expect them to function within boundaries only about half the time. Isn't it more confusing to a kid not to know whether a situation/excursion is different enough from normal life that Mom & Dad won't require normal life behavior? And what counts as eventful enough to let more things go? Park? Play date? Disneyland? Art class? Trip to Toys R Us? They get nearly as excited about being pushed around in the double cart at Target as they do at Disneyland, so how to decide when to let issues go?
It's not that you 'let issues go' in situations like that.

Think of it this way: for every skill, at every age there is a "percent" of expectation or requirement on the child, and a "percent" of parental support for the desired behaviour. The responsibility is somehow split between the parent and the child.

For example, while parents may hope an infant keeps her volume low in a Church service, they accept that it is the role of 100% parental support that makes that happen, including the 'support' of ducking out of a service that the baby is not coping with. However, say an 8 year old is basically 80% expected to keep herself quiet, and parents not going to be happy about providing more than say 20% support.

Try to imagine all skills, desired behaviors or expectations on this scale. Under normal circumstances, (just guessing) you would view unprompted thanking as 75% the child's responsibility, requiring your support through reminders 25% of the time. As excitement levels rise, you don't just stop expecting thanking -- but you do move the sliders and pull more of the responsibility for making thanking happen back into your own camp. It still happens, so there is no confusion of the rules, there is just more parental support than usual, due to unusual circumstances.

Another example: chores may be 95% the full responsibility of a teen, with only 5% support. During school exams, stresses are high, and a parent can choose to provide more than the usual amount of support -- giving reminders, working together, easing the tasks -- without actually letting the chores slide.

[jandjmommy]

It's not that you 'let issues go' in situations like that.

Think of it this way: for every skill, at every age there is a "percent" of expectation or requirement on the child, and a "percent" of parental support for the desired behaviour. The responsibility is somehow split between the parent and the child.

For example, while parents may hope an infant keeps her volume low in a Church service, they accept that it is the role of 100% parental support that makes that happen, including the 'support' of ducking out of a service that the baby is not coping with. However, say an 8 year old is basically 80% expected to keep herself quiet, and parents not going to be happy about providing more than say 20% support.

Try to imagine all skills, desired behaviors or expectations on this scale. Under normal circumstances, (just guessing) you would view unprompted thanking as 75% the child's responsibility, requiring your support through reminders 25% of the time. As excitement levels rise, you don't just stop expecting thanking -- but you do move the sliders and pull more of the responsibility for making thanking happen back into your own camp. It still happens, so there is no confusion of the rules, there is just more parental support than usual, due to unusual circumstances.

Another example: chores may be 95% the full responsibility of a teen, with only 5% support. During school exams, stresses are high, and a parent can choose to provide more than the usual amount of support -- giving reminders, working together, easing the tasks -- without actually letting the chores slide.
The sliding percentage scale is a very clear and helpful tool! Thanks so much!

[PaperMomma]

It's not that you 'let issues go' in situations like that.

Think of it this way: for every skill, at every age there is a "percent" of expectation or requirement on the child, and a "percent" of parental support for the desired behaviour. The responsibility is somehow split between the parent and the child.

For example, while parents may hope an infant keeps her volume low in a Church service, they accept that it is the role of 100% parental support that makes that happen, including the 'support' of ducking out of a service that the baby is not coping with. However, say an 8 year old is basically 80% expected to keep herself quiet, and parents not going to be happy about providing more than say 20% support.

Try to imagine all skills, desired behaviors or expectations on this scale. Under normal circumstances, (just guessing) you would view unprompted thanking as 75% the child's responsibility, requiring your support through reminders 25% of the time. As excitement levels rise, you don't just stop expecting thanking -- but you do move the sliders and pull more of the responsibility for making thanking happen back into your own camp. It still happens, so there is no confusion of the rules, there is just more parental support than usual, due to unusual circumstances.

Another example: chores may be 95% the full responsibility of a teen, with only 5% support. During school exams, stresses are high, and a parent can choose to provide more than the usual amount of support -- giving reminders, working together, easing the tasks -- without actually letting the chores slide.

That's really helpful. Thanks.

[Love_Is_Patient]

I think there is a difference between the 'consequence' in the cookie scenario and the one proposed while TOTing--when you hold the cookie while they go say thanks, you aren't withholding a treat from them, you are providing support for them to go say thanks without the distraction of a cookie in their hands. It's a when/then scenario, and there is no threat 'if you don't say thanks you won't get this cookie'. A similar consequence in TOTing would be that you stopped dd from going on to the next house until she thanked the house where she was.

I can think of scenarios TOTing that might require different handling--for example, active rudeness, i.e. complaining about the type of candy to the person who gave it. If that behavior continued after regrouping to discuss expectations, then skipping houses or even leaving TOT altogether would be appropriate (taking away the opportunity to be rude). You don't have to allow *rudeness* but forgetting to say thank you is not the same as being actually rude. Or, a scenario I can imagine with my 2--ds might have trouble with pushing or being rough with his sister in order to be first. I might respond to that by holding him off the porch until dd has gotten her candy, and allowing him to go after she was finished. I'm not taking away his treat but I am structuring things so that he doesn't have the opportunity to mistreat his sister, even though it's mostly because of over-excitement.