How do you talk to a spanker?

[Amielou]

......Without becoming irate and unreasonable :(

I have just found out a friend of mine spanks her wee little girl. I was so sad to hear it and hurt for the little one.

I have a lot of trouble not getting incredibly upset when the welfare of small people is at stake... i know where shes at because before i had my own children i was there too, i was spanked as a child and i trained and worked as a childcare worker for a long time... i was one of those who expected babies to do certain things and was frustrated when they didn't because i thought i was doing something wrong... that didn't last long as i behgan to get in touch with the feelings and realisation that children are NOT animals and they are not robots and they are little people with beautiful souls and spirits and are to be loved and treasured and gentley guided and not hit or restrained to strict models of book based things. I know how insane i must sound to her (and she actually swore at me i upset her so :( )

How do you go about helping someone so blind to the truth of what they do without becoming unreasonable? I have stopepd speaking with her about it for now, till i gather myself (and my rescources) but was hoping for advice.

Help anyone??

[KrissyLynn]

Well, I flat out tell them I totally disagree with spanking, and heres what I would of done in that situation instead. I borderline dont care if I offend. I try to be gracious and careful how I word things, but I wont not say something at the risk of offending. I think its just important to not have a higher then thou attitude, and to remember that if they DONT think they are doing anything wrong and DONT want to change anything, its just gonna be banging your head against the wall. Eventually she WILL see that what shes doing isnt working, and be more open to suggestion. You can even relate your experience of being spanked as a child what they made you feel and what you did/didnt learn from it, and try to relate to her with what you've gone through as a parent/child care worker before you were in the spot you're at now.

[WanderingJuniper]

I don't say things out of the blue if I know a family spanks but if the conversation comes up I try to offer different options while not saying things like "Oh we don't spank." because that puts them on the defensive immediately.

I don't want to make the relationship awkward or close the door on the topic.

I've been known to say something along the lines of "You know what I found worked great when my kids would xyz behavior? Insert GBD option for age appropriate behavior. I was suprised at how well it worked and how much more peaceful our has has been. It might be worth a try."

[MarynMunchkins]

I think once I fully embraced the GBD paradigm instead of focusing on just "not spanking", it became easier. My goal isn't to convince other people not to spank - it's to model Christ-like behavior. When I'm able to love people where they are and show them something better, they respond well.

That's not to say I've never stuck my foot in my mouth. :sadno But I've learned to focus on my own behavior and wait for the Holy Spirit to give me the opportunity to speak instead of just pushing my way into it. :)

[GlacierLily]

Try not to offend them and offer alternatives. Once I get offended by someone about any part of my parenting it makes me want to ignore them:shifty

[mamacat]

If the subject comes up I share what works for us like one time I told someone that I (try to)encourage and give lots of grace to my child when they are honest and upfront about a mistake or wrongdoing so that encourages them to be truthful and come to me rather than trying to hide or cover up the wrongdoing or mistake. Likewise with a little person if she says she spanked for x,y and z you can say that when that happens with your dc you have found that (fill in blank) helps to redirect her behavior and teach her a more positive way

[racheepoo]

. Eventually she WILL see that what shes doing isnt working, and be more open to suggestion. You can even relate your experience of being spanked as a child what they made you feel and what you did/didnt learn from it, and try to relate to her with what you've gone through as a parent/child care worker before you were in the spot you're at now.


I disagree. Plenty of spankers keep spanking and will defend to the death WHY they do it, and never come to any sort of realization. If it's not working, it's because of the child. Not because they are choosing to spank :shrug

IMO expounding on anyone's parenting choices is a surefire way to get shut down b/c that person is immediately on the defensive. Whether that be carseats, vaxxing, circing, spanking, bf'ing...you name it. Far better to share what works for you. It's easy for us to pick a topic and get really, really gungho about it. It's great if that changes who we are, and at the same time extends grace to others who aren't as gungho. Or the ones that see no reason to change at all. :heart

[mamacat]

I agree with not saying things that would put her on the defensive.We dont like it if someone who is a spanker tells us that what we are doing is wrong and it would rise the defensive in us.Often it is just that a person only knows one way of doing things or has been taught that it is right or hasnt really thought about it at all.Its more helpful to have someone share another way even if they dont accept it at 1st they can have that info in their resource bank and kind of mull over it.Just like people making choices with childbirth that others might consider harmful and not the best way. It doesnt do any good for either side to say that having a homebirth or medicated birth is harmful or wrong but to be informed of different information can be very helpful.

[Mama2MeadowRose]

You know I was just thinking. For as much as most Christians (especially Dobson, etc) advocate spanking...I just can't picture the Gentle Shepherd striking a small child. "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them, for such is the Kingdom of God. [...] But whoever offends one of these little ones [...]." Now I know our God is great and powerful and He can do whatever He wants. I know that He can take our very lives even right now. But He is also close to the humble and the weak. Aren't children small and tender? And don't children have angels in heaven who see them?

I guess what I'm saying is that although we serve a great and powerful God, He is gentle and kind towards the tender. And little children are certainly tender! Like I said, I just can't see the perfect Master Y'shua ever striking a little one.

So why do we have punitive actions and attitudes towards little children in the Church?

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

I'd like to have the time to explain this to the spankers I come into contact with you. I already posted on another thread in this section that I heard lightly striking the hand of a 4month old was OK in one Christian's worldview that I talked to recently. Ugh! Just a little child, precious and tender.

[ArmsOfLove]

I *share* my tools, I *share* my journey. If I see someone getting upset at a little one doing something every little one at that age does I might say, "I remember being so upset when my first would do that at that age. Then I learned God made them to all do that and I realized it was more helpful to . . . "

Or I have been known to go up to a parent who is struggling with something and is clearly getting embarrassed and frustrated and say, "I hate it when my children do that. I've found . . . helps a lot of them." I've had lots of parents so grateful for ANYTHING else to try that they do it and when it works they are really grateful and I've not had to mention punishment at all but I've given them a new tool they can try before getting to that point :tu

Sometimes I find reflecting their feelings in the moment, or giving adult expression to their child's feelings helps a lot. To the mama, "You look to so done. It's been a long day, hasn't it?" Or to the baby, "You are so tired. It's late and I think you just want to be in bed." It connects with the logical brain in the parent and focuses the emotional brain with information.

[mamacat]

That is so great what Crystal said about connecting with both the mama and the child

[Aisling]

I honestly don't go into a lot of particulars or semantics, and just go for honest emotional reflection/reaction, with a pinch of perspective.

"You'd better stop that, or I'm going to wear your butt out!!"
"It sounds like you guys have had a tough day...I hate those (we had one yesterday!). Want me to spell you for a while so you can catch a breath?"

"I had to spank her the other day because she was pitching such a tantrum."
"It sounds like you were both exhausted. Were you two able to catch some down time? :hugheart "

"*Laughing* I told him he was lucky I'm not his grandma...she'd have spanked him even harder."
"Ugh. Man, it sucks that she wasn't able to realize you probably needed XYZ at that age...must have been a tough way to grow up."

Often, I think honest emotional reaction rather than judgement brings clarity much, much faster, especially if a mom's steeped in a paradigm of might makes right. It gives the other person a chance to reflect a little without confrontation in an already emotionally charged moment. :heart

[bolt.]

I once asked a co-worker of mine who is a children's counsellor "What do you think about spanking?"

She answered me with this completely honest look of sweet incredulity and said, "What do I think about adults hitting people who are smaller than they are???" I felt like I'd asked her what her opinion was about shoplifing. She made it seem like anyone with half a brain would be able to see the wrongness of it.

That didn't stop me from some punitive parenting choices within my journey, including a short season of spanking -- but it has always been in the back of my mind: a clear, succinct, sweet and reasonable voice that asked me the question that I needed to ask myself.

... Of course I asked the question, and I considered her a good source of information, so it's not like you can use that approach with people who aren't interested... but I just thought I'd share.

[Aisling]

Yeah, I think there's a big difference between an honest, situation specific reaction and a dramatic, scripted opinion of spanking in general dressed as an honest reaction.

[katiekind]

So many thoughtful responses. One thing I learned a long time ago is this:

"people don't care how much you know -- until they know how much you care."

And it is through that caring that we earn the right to say something if and when the Spirit says we should AND in that caring we create the safe emotional environment in which we both can learn from one another.

[littleowl]

At the place I'm at right now, if I found out one of my friends spanks her children I couldn't be friends with her anymore. A month after my dd was born a friend of mine called to find out how I was doing. I told her "good but tired." She asked me if I was picking up dd all night or letting her cry. I told her I was feeding on demand and she told me to just "let her cry" and "they know" as in "they know what they're doing."

I have heard this "they know" from several people and it irks me every time. These people are basically saying that a small baby "knows" how to manipulate a grown person. When my friend said this to me it bothered me so much I haven't called her since or taken her calls. I can't feel close to anyone who thinks like this.

[AngelaVA]

At the place I'm at right now, if I found out one of my friends spanks her children I couldn't be friends with her anymore. A month after my dd was born a friend of mine called to find out how I was doing. I told her "good but tired." She asked me if I was picking up dd all night or letting her cry. I told her I was feeding on demand and she told me to just "let her cry" and "they know" as in "they know what they're doing."

I have heard this "they know" from several people and it irks me every time. These people are basically saying that a small baby "knows" how to manipulate a grown person. When my friend said this to me it bothered me so much I haven't called her since or taken her calls. I can't feel close to anyone who thinks like this.


In that case and especially as a new parent I think you are doing the right thing. I had some people in my life when I was a new mom who were really pushy and aggressive with their punitive opinions and I found it very poisonous.

In general I don't stay away from people who are spankers though unless they are really over the top punitive in their general attitude and behavior. Most people I know IRL who spank they do it when they are at the end of their rope and out of ideas and if I can offer them grace and friendship and possibly some new ideas that seems much more productive.

[HomeWithMyBabies]

I say this with all the gentleness and understanding one can have, if you're becoming enraged and unreasonable with your friend over their spanking I would take a step back and work on that part of myself. :hug I say this as someone who has had some very serious anger issues in the past. :yes Gentle discipline has transformed *me* and continues to do so at every stage my children go through. :heart I absolutely had to face my own anger though, much of that related to how I was disciplined, and there were many triggers in parenting from my past along the way.

[mamacat]

I agree that with a young baby and PP hormones now may not be a good time to have these discussions at all or try to be a positive role model

[Maggirayne]

I don't.

I am not in a healthy place to have a healthy, graceful response, so I have really pulled back from my punitive friends. My mama-heart can't handle it right now. I don't read many posts in UPP because I have such big feelings about punitiveness.

[magpiedpiper]

I say this with all the gentleness and understanding one can have, if you're becoming enraged and unreasonable with your friend over their spanking I would take a step back and work on that part of myself. :hug I say this as someone who has had some very serious anger issues in the past. :yes Gentle discipline has transformed *me* and continues to do so at every stage my children go through. :heart I absolutely had to face my own anger though, much of that related to how I was disciplined, and there were many triggers in parenting from my past along the way.

I have found lately this to be extremely true of myself also. :yes

[Amielou]

i tried the suggestions thing - she thought i was a total loony who let me children run wild and never say boo to them, she was all about wanting to PUNISH them, natural consquences and redirecting weren't satisfying her, almost like she had a need to enforce punishments on her precious child, and the lesson of a logical consequence was not "enough" to teach her a good thorough "lesson" i am so confused, and i tried the "Jesus wouldn't hit a child" she responded with "it's not a hit it's a tap and YES i think Jesus would!?!"

I don't know, it sounds like she is just not ready to hear the truth. The worst of it is i tried to help her be fully informed about birth and the hospital system etc and she thought i was crazy then too - till she had a typical abusing birth rape hospital experience and realised i was right and she had not seen the truth of it till too late :( she is now looking at home birth for the next one which is amazing and so so great but i am sad she didn't hear the truth till too late for all my efforts to share with her, and i worry the same will be so with spanking, what if she does realise she was wrong, but only when the damage is already done :( i am praying about it, and ont talking to her about it anymore for now as she is in too irate of a place to hear anything but that i am a crazy person who is not teaching my children in a Godly way - because hitting a child is more Godly than not. I am so saddened for what her wee one is dealing with and that she is not being heard and having her needs met but i fear there is nothing more i can do for now... she will come to for help when she realises her mistake - just like she did with the birthing stuff... i only hope it's not too late by then :(

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------

i sent her a message letting her know i car about her and her family and will keep praying for her and even if she never speaks to me again i will be thinking of her and i want her to know she can tell me anything any time and i will always be here for her to talk to.

we will see what happens now

[mamaKristin]

I can't be the Holy Spirit for other Christian parents :shrug

I don't spank, and I don't expose my children to it. At the same time, when I see my friends who also love the Lord who feel they must spank their children, I try to extend grace to them too. I can't push my views on them with the subtlety of a 2x4 ;) I share what works for me, and what has helped me in various stages. It also probably helps with many of my friends with children that my children are older than theirs, so I've "been there, done that".

However, if someone came up to me and started listing the ways I was "wrong"...I'd hear them about as well as anyone giving me unsolicited, unwanted, unneeded advice. Which means I wouldn't hear them. We can either share our "what works" with love and care, or we can bully our friends. As someone who chooses to discipline my children with grace, how can I be less than grace-filled in my interactions with adults?

[Aisling]

i tried the suggestions thing - she thought i was a total loony who let me children run wild and never say boo to them, she was all about wanting to PUNISH them, natural consquences and redirecting weren't satisfying her, almost like she had a need to enforce punishments on her precious child, and the lesson of a logical consequence was not "enough" to teach her a good thorough "lesson" i am so confused, and i tried the "Jesus wouldn't hit a child" she responded with "it's not a hit it's a tap and YES i think Jesus would!?!"


As much as I'm for child advocacy, I have to say that at this point, you're totally overstepping your bounds as a friend. :hug It's not your job to overhaul her parenting. :heart

[AngelaVA]

I know you are having really big feelings about this and I understand but I think you need to be more respectful of your friend as a parent. We all make our mistakes but they are ours to make. You are saying to her she can talk to you about anything but you are judging her when she does tell you what she thinks. She's just not in the same place as you right now.

[Mama2MeadowRose]

Id say there needs to be a line between true abuse and 'that's not the way I parent'. If you see true abuse then I'd say go ahead and say something. But if it isnt a matter of true abuse (that requiring legal action) then dont overstep your bounds as a friend.

(Of course drawing that line isn't easy, it takes wisdom and discernment)

[ArmsOfLove]

Id say there needs to be a line between true abuse and 'that's not the way I parent'. If you see true abuse then I'd say go ahead and say something. But if it isnt a matter of true abuse (that requiring legal action) then dont overstep your bounds as a friend.

(Of course drawing that line isn't easy, it takes wisdom and discernment)

That doesn't work. I would define lots of things as true abuse that the state might allow--so I don't go around reporting people for what, were I to do it, I would consider true abuse. I would only consider reporting someone for legally defined abuse.

At the same time, I won't expose my children to what is abuse by my definition. That has meant some friendships have ended or been distanced during certain years of life. That's under the heading of me putting my family ahead of friendships--friends aren't my responsibility in the same way that my children are :heart

[Zooey]

Id say there needs to be a line between true abuse and 'that's not the way I parent'. If you see true abuse then I'd say go ahead and say something. But if it isnt a matter of true abuse (that requiring legal action) then dont overstep your bounds as a friend.

(Of course drawing that line isn't easy, it takes wisdom and discernment)
I understnd & agree with what I am hearing you say, but I would NOT let your little one be exposed to these people.
As adults, we sometimes forget how scary it is to be a child who sees what may not be *legally defined* abuse, but is toxic all the same.

[littleowl]

Amielou, I think your friend is probably holding a grudge against you for the birthing advice and now the parenting advice set her off.

My sister upset me by trying to get me to go to a midwife to have dd but I wanted to have her in a hospital for several reasons. Are hospital births bad?

I can understand how mad you are at her for hitting her daughter, I'm at the same place with my intolerance of any spanking. Maybe just distant yourself for awhile?

[ArmsOfLove]

Are hospital births bad?Just wanted to suggest reading some threads in the childbirth forum. There is a lot of controversy over hospital births and the unnecessary risks they can cause with interventions. That forum has better resources than this one and is probably going to give you a lot more info :)

[Mama2MeadowRose]

LittleOwl, I had a hospital birth with my DD and that's just my decision. I'm not against mothers who choose home birth or any variant in between. This is more a matter of preference.

Spanking is a parental preference I guess, but a little more serious because it actually involves certain parents making the choice to physically inflict harm to their child.

There can always be controversy both ways concerning any parenting decisions/philosophies. Some battles are worth fighting, while others simply are not. In the end, it's each parent's call. I think every parent has the tendency to want others to parent the way they do, some things just don't matter, but others really really do matter. I honestly can't tell you if this is one of those times to fight that battle or just let it go.

[Amielou]

i don't think i understand how she could have a grudge against me for the birthing advice when she now has come to me asking for more of it and realising that what i told her was right? I don't understand how someone can have a grudge about something they have found later on to be right?

I don't think hospital births are inherently bad, no. I had two of them myself and the fact they were in the hospital was bad for me, but it was more other things that were the problem, we still got our drug free births and no one stuck anything inside me, but things still happened to my children and to me that i will not let happen again. I wasn't telling her hospital births were bad, just helping inform her of the risks that the docs don't tell you about and what can happen in a typical hospital system if you are not aware and have someone to support you and protect you... she didn't hear me on it until after it was too late for her first birth, but she did hear me eventually, when she was in the right place and the seeds i had planted then grew... i have left the spanking issue alone, and she is not yet talking to me again... which i understand completely, but i pray the seeds i have planted will grow in time, and soon, and she will learn and realise and whether i ever hear from her again or not i pray she finds good and peaceful paths.

[katiekind]

I hear you needing to process what has happened in your friendship, but I'm not sure it will be so helpful to process it here on the message board. :hug2

[bolt.]

I don't understand how someone can have a grudge about something they have found later on to be right?
People often resent an 'I told you so' situation (even if nobody actually says 'I told you so') -- especially if the person that 'told them' then considers their credibility increased, and felt freeer to share other opinions.

In generaly, no matter how valid a person's opinions are -- if they are unwelcome, they are unwelcome.