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View Full Version : "Is This Punitive?" is missing the point of GBD


Katigre
03-05-2011, 10:09 AM
I'd like to discuss this. I have seen the question of whether something is punitive or not come up freqently the forum lately. This post is not directed at any particular thread/poster/discussion, but rather is a topic I think is relevant to discuss separately. Onto my thoughts...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that parents struggling with GBD often ask discipline questions in the context of whether something is punitive vs. gentle.

Often, this question is a result of parents feeling unsure how to evaluate their response to unwanted behavior. They believe that 'punitive is bad' and 'gentle is good', but don't have a clear working definition for how to evaluate discipline choices in the light of those values.

This dilemna seems to leads to a permissive-punitive swing as they try to 'be gentle' which becomes 'i have no tools to enforce boundaries if the kids don't agree'. When things are pushed far enough, the parent reacts with a harsh consequence born out of frustration rather than a deliberate choice in teaching. This back and forth scenario is very confusing and difficult for both parent and child to navigate, and leads to the worst kind of behavior for everyone. Without a consistent pattern of interaction established in the home, no one knows what to expect or how to adjust. It also leads to misunderstandings of how GBD works.

I personally find the question 'Is this punitive or not?' to be unhelpful in figuring out GBD responses to misbehavior. Equally, 'Is this gentle?' can lead to the thinking that anything spoken in a firm voice or enforced physically (such as carrying a tantruming child out of a store) is 'ungentle'. In the midst of problem solving, this specific question ('punitive or gentle?') can block proactive brainstorming and finding strategies for connecting with our children and teaching them.

Instead, when I am approaching a situation with the kids, I focus on these types of questions when problem solving (let's take the issue of siblings fighting over a toy):
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"

Those questions are proactive and encourage me to think through GBD in a positive way (not as a reaction against being punitive, but in positively choosing it as the best option for my family).

The purpose of this forum is to equip parents with tools - not just practical tools for managing XYZ unpleasant behavior, but also proactive tools for the parent so that they become established in a GBD paradigm. I think figuring out how to rephrase the 'is this punitive?' question into something that promotes more immediate problem solving is an important tool (at least it is for me with my kids).

saturnfire16
03-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Can't find the lightbulb smilie, but OH! I wonder if that is where my dh struggles. :think He will use that syrupy sweet voice "sweetie will you do XYZ please" in an attempt to be gentle or tell the kids "stop, stop, stop" over and over, but then when they step all over his boundaries anyway he gets irritated and blows up at them. I wonder if in his mind, he is thinking that he knows he doesn't want to spank, yell etc, but doesn't know what TO do. I keep showing and telling him what TO do, which he often does, but I don't think he has quite internalized WHY to do it. :think

bolt.
03-05-2011, 10:34 AM
I like this line of thought.

Perhaps the core question is more about, "What do I want to accomplish?" I don't really know... Sometimes I think, "Who's side am I on?" (If I'm on 'my side' feeling like the child is the problem, that's a warning to me -- but if I'm on 'the child's side' working against the problem for their sake, that's OK even if they don't like it or don't see it that way.)

I think a core skill of GBD is the ability to see ourselves clearly and be honest with ourselves when looking at our motives. Because I can justify things if I want to, and so can anyone else -- saying, "I'm acting this way for their own good" -- but a grace-motivated parent has to be able to face the reality that that's not always true, take note of those situations as mistakes (without falling into self condemnation) and work forward with their eyes open, as a learner... it's tough.

It helps if you come from a theological place that emphasises an incarnational view of ministry. (Meaning: the indwelling Spirit is doing the ministry, and we provide the 'flesh' to enact it as His co-worker.)

gpsings
03-05-2011, 12:58 PM
:cup
God knows I need this...I have such a struggle exerting authority anyway without knowing what is punitive and what is not...

Hermana Linda
03-05-2011, 04:51 PM
Can't find the lightbulb smilie,
:idea :idea

Blue-EyedLady
03-05-2011, 05:02 PM
:cup

SweetCaroline
03-05-2011, 05:37 PM
this is good.
i know im personally so polluted with the punitive mindset, its hard for me to apply these totally different concepts practically..they make sense in my mind but then theres this lack of confidence and im worried i'll blow it and ruin my kids :-/
i guess thats what we're all scared of?

arctic oak
03-05-2011, 05:55 PM
:cup

bolt.
03-05-2011, 07:08 PM
I guess I take comfort in the fact that kids are very hard to "ruin" -- the resilient little creatures have grown up in coal mines and wartimes, famines and medieval times...

Certainly we can enhance their experiences, their pschology, and their habits of character -- but I think it takes actual neglegence or malice (and plenty of it) to truly ruin children.

I think of GBD as a great way to maximize what I can contribute to the lives of my kids, but I refuse to live in the fear of accidentally doing them some kind of great and irreperable harm.

SweetCaroline
03-05-2011, 07:39 PM
I guess I take comfort in the fact that kids are very hard to "ruin" -- the resilient little creatures have grown up in coal mines and wartimes, famines and medieval times...

Certainly we can enhance their experiences, their pschology, and their habits of character -- but I think it takes actual neglegence or malice (and plenty of it) to truly ruin children.

I think of GBD as a great way to maximize what I can contribute to the lives of my kids, but I refuse to live in the fear of accidentally doing them some kind of great and irreperable harm.

the warning in Proverbs stress the importance of discipline. my principals and my conscience tell me that spanking is wrong, but thats just all i know. (geez thats sad) but when everybody you know is against you on the subject- and look at you like you're a heritic -and when your husband is telling you that the kids are going to grow up to act like idiots if we dont spank them.. I start to doubt myself, my conscience.
the set of principals that gentle discipline is based on are clear and solid to me, so i dont doubt them at all.
but, anyway. its like wearing a chicken suit and walking backwards all day- it just still feels foreign to me sometimes. like i have no idea what im doing. :scratch ok. im done

Chaos Coordinator
03-05-2011, 07:45 PM
i know im personally so polluted with the punitive mindset, its hard for me to apply these totally different concepts practically..


this exactly.

some of us have minds that have been so poisoned that we really just can't tell the difference anymore and are trying to feel our way through this with the help of other gcm'ers. we really dont know where the line is drawn, what that line looks like or how to recognize it. when we ask "is this punitive" its because we honestly can't tell. everything is so mixed up. its hard to have relationships with full grown adults sometimes, nevermind very very small young people. its not because we are "missing the point" its because we just dont know up from down and we need someone who DOES get it to help us find our way through.

TraceMama
03-05-2011, 07:47 PM
:cup

Chaos Coordinator
03-05-2011, 07:49 PM
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"




i can ask myself these questions all day, but when you've grown up entrenched in harsh punitive discipline, physical punishment, shaming, and the like, you dont have a healthy concept of boundaries, you justify spanking by saying that it keeps them safe, you equate fear with respect, and refer to principles of b-mod to teach patterns for how to act.

and this is coming from someone who found this website when my firstborn was an infant. i cannot imagine how difficult it must be when you've been parenting for a long time before trying to make the switch.

SweetCaroline
03-05-2011, 08:16 PM
i cannot imagine how difficult it must be when you've been parenting for a long time before trying to make the switch.

its, like, sickeningly hard. sometimes i feel so unjoyful trying to do this mom thing
i was raised by a single father too. so- im like some harsh man-mom.
sorry.."was". im getting better :amen

Chaos Coordinator
03-05-2011, 08:22 PM
(i'm having a really bad day so if my posts seem unnecessarily harsh or, even :nails irrational or unreasonable, lets just blame it on that :hug)

Elora
03-05-2011, 09:10 PM
(i'm having a really bad day so if my posts seem unnecessarily harsh or, even :nails irrational or unreasonable, lets just blame it on that :hug)fwiw, i think i get what you're saying. here's how my punitive parenting ssis would answer those questions

"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?" i will break the toy in half and throw it in the garbage right in front of their faces to teach them consequences of what will happen if they can't share

"Will this response help keep everyone safe?" yes. no fighting means they're not hurting each other

"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)" i will teach them to share

"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?" yes. in the future they will share so that their toys aren't taken

she may not be spanking, but still thnks "you have to make them feel bad to get them to listen"

everydaygrace
03-05-2011, 09:28 PM
:cup

Joyanne
03-05-2011, 09:45 PM
By the same token, however, just because the consequence makes them feel badly, does not mean it is wrong to use that consequence or is punitive, etc.

Kids are fighting over a toy. They've been warned that the toy will be taken away and they will be separated if they cannot stop fighting.

What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
I will put the toy on the top shelf in my closet, so that everyone will learn to take turns or play together. I will separate the children so that they will not hurt one another and will understand that they will lose the privelege of playing together if they can't play together without fighting."Will this response help keep everyone safe?" Yes, and it will keep the toy from getting broken.

"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" I want to teach them to be kind to one another, and to be careful with their things. Patience, responsibility also play a part.

"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"
Yes, they will learn that there are consequences to our behavior, both positive or negative.


Now, the children may not like this response at all. They may howl and kick and fuss, etc. But it is a fair and logical consequence, and it isn't punitive, at least to me. I'm not trying to punish them, I'm attempting to teach them how to get along with others, how to be responsible with their belongings, etc. Not attempting to punish them because their behavior has angered me, and they 'deserve' to have their toys taken and not to be allowed to play together.

In Christ,
Joy

ArmsOfLove
03-05-2011, 09:52 PM
Katigre--thank you so much :heart You have shown with this post (and all sorts of others of course, but this was the crown :) ) that you totally get it. And, I'm sure you know as I do, that getting it doesn't mean you always are able to accomplish it :hug We're all human and we all make mistakes.

In response to some of the responses . . . I really do get the struggle with feeling overwhelmed by a faulty paradigm. The thing is, and what Katigre is trying to say, focus on changing the paradigm. Run towards a totally new way of doing things. Throw out everything--rather than trying to focus on getting through this or that situation, pull back and look at the big picture. :heart

what are your goals? Are they short term management or long term leadership? In the moment are you being the adult you want them to become?

If not--then the real focus needs to be on becoming the adult you want them to become--and as you do, they will follow you. That's how it works. Where they are is where you've led them--their behaviors are on them, but the overall dynamic, the big picture, YOU choose the canvas, you set the stage. It's scary--especially when you've had no one model it done lovingly and gently. But YOU get to do it now. So decide who YOU want to be--then be that you. And you will parent differently :heart

If you are in the situation where you're even asking "is this punitive/gentle" then you've let things go too far. Muddle through the best you can today and then YOU learn from it--figure out where to stop things before they get there.

Of course, if you have children under the age of 5, just stop stressing. Focus on your boundaries, and what you want to do, and what you will do--because they are going to act their age no matter what you do. This is the age to focus on how you respond--to focus on BEING the parent you want to be. At these ages it is NOT about outcome--the results will not show themselves for years. Think of the parable of the rich man who owned a field and sowed wheat and during the night the enemy sowed weeds. The workers wanted permission to go out and pull up all the weeds but the landowner said NO--because you might pull out wheat with the weeds. Let them both grow up together and then you will know which is which--and pull out the weeds before the wheat is harvested. (totally paraphrasing--but the parable fits here :heart)

In the toddler/preschool years what may look like a weed is often an immature fruit, and what may look beautiful may turn out to be the bud of a weed. Just focus on building your gardening tools and then when you know which is which you will be prepared :heart

SweetCaroline
03-05-2011, 10:04 PM
Of course, if you have children under the age of 5, just stop stressing. Focus on your boundaries, and what you want to do, and what you will do--because they are going to act their age no matter what you do. This is the age to focus on how you respond--to focus on BEING the parent you want to be. At these ages it is NOT about outcome--the results will not show themselves for years. Think of the parable of the rich man who owned a field and sowed wheat and during the night the enemy sowed weeds. The workers wanted permission to go out and pull up all the weeds but the landowner said NO--because you might pull out wheat with the weeds. Let them both grow up together and then you will know which is which--and pull out the weeds before the wheat is harvested. (totally paraphrasing--but the parable fits here :heart)

In the toddler/preschool years what may look like a weed is often an immature fruit, and what may look beautiful may turn out to be the bud of a weed. Just focus on building your gardening tools and then when you know which is which you will be prepared :heart
thanks! thats encouraging!!

3boysforme
03-05-2011, 10:13 PM
In the moment are you being the adult you want them to become?


I really, really needed to read that today, I was not the adult I want my boys to be and did way too much yelling. Thank you for writing that Crystal. I'm going to put that on my fridge.

Elora
03-05-2011, 10:20 PM
If not--then the real focus needs to be on becoming the adult you want them to become
it's hard to get to a place if you don't know where and what that place is - or even what it looks like

once you know what the "adult you want them to become" looks like, it's much easier to answer those questions

but sometimes, especially when you're eyes have just recently been open to the fact that something is wrong with the adult that you are (which in and of itself can be hard to swallow), it's hard to know WHAT you're supposed to BE

i think katigre's questions are great and very helpful for me personally...but 5 yrs ago they would not have helped me because i didn't realize anything was wrong with the adult i was

GentleMomof4
03-06-2011, 12:45 AM
:cup

Mommainrwanda
03-06-2011, 03:42 AM
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"


I want to put these on my refrigerator :heart

Again, I'm reminded that GBD is about relationships. The other night, DH and I were discussing the parenting that raised both of us - my family being traditionally punitive and his appearing more grace based. However, his parents had the appearance of "gentle" discipline because they wanted to avoid conflict with their children. As a teenager, dh would sneak out of the house at night. One time his dad caught him coming back in, but NOTHING was ever said. At the time dh thought "Score! I got away with it. What cool parents." Now, he feels that the lack of a relational component in those parenting decisions has direct implications to his current relationship with his parents. :shrug3

So, it's not about "being tough" or "being nice."

I guess I have to remember the relationship that I have with my kids and the impact that comes from modeling a healthy relationship. I don't want to use conditioning (smacking the hand etc) to produce "correct" behavior, but at the same time I don't want to gloss over inappropriate behavior just to avoid conflict. I want to foster a strong, healthy relationship with my kids and not be so insecure in that relationship that I feel it is threatened by conflict or disobedience.

Oooohhh, there's so much to think about...

Katigre
03-06-2011, 07:50 AM
Thank you for the responses and thank you's :heart. When I put it up yesterday I was a little nervous and wasn't sure about how it would be received...sometimes ideas sound great in your head but not so much in discussion with others.

And, I'm sure you know as I do, that getting it doesn't mean you always are able to accomplish it :hug We're all human and we all make mistakes.
:yes :yes :yes :yes Having a GBD paradigm in place does NOT mean that I am a perfect parent and never struggle. I'm human, I get overly frustrated with childish behavior and react, etc... Having a solid philosophy of discipline in place makes handling those lapses easier because I have a goal in sight to aim toward - it doesn't mean I don't struggle in the first place :no.

If it is any encouragement, I am raising second generation GBD kids* - I'm pruning along a familiar path, not blazing a whole new trail. The latter is much harder, but not impossible. I know several families who established a new pattern with their kids (and those kids are now grown and carrying it on in their own lives). It's a one step at a time process of renewing mind and thoughts, of reframing it with help and support. That's why this community is so important - I would not be the parent that I am today without the support I've found on GCM :heart.

* Neither of my parents were raised GBD, but that is the approach they settled on with us because it seemed most logical to them :giggle. They succeeded with this the best when we were tweens and teens. (Our younger years had some typical punitive elements along with strong relational bonds and a lot of quality time invested into us).

The fruit of their mostly-GBD parenting in our lives as adults is enormous - you can see it in our self-confidence, strong work ethic, lack of shame issues, reliable character, stable relationships (healthy marriages and good relationships with our parents), and solid boundaries. That is the fruit of years of intentional parenting (not perfection :no), including periods where our behavior looked rocky.

As they look back, there are things they would do differently. There are areas where they see they fell short, there are places they were too lax. But the overall picture was of loving, connected, relational parenting with high standards (but not harshness). Focusing on the relational component goes a long way toward GBD because it helps you to relate empathetically to your child. My mom is still one of my best friends to this day (with great boundaries ;)). She invests in me relationally as a person - not as an extension of her own image, as a project to be fixed, or as someone who is out of step with her ideas. This is something that started way back when I was a child.

Sparrow
03-06-2011, 04:40 PM
Instead, when I am approaching a situation with the kids, I focus on these types of questions when problem solving (let's take the issue of siblings fighting over a toy):
"What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
"Will this response help keep everyone safe?"
"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" (respect, patience, kindness, etc...)"
"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"

Those questions are proactive and encourage me to think through GBD in a positive way (not as a reaction against being punitive, but in positively choosing it as the best option for my family).



could I please share this with DH? :)

Hermana Linda
03-06-2011, 04:56 PM
This is a public forum. You may share it with anyone. :heart The link to the OP is http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showpost.php?p=3737556&postcount=1

thomer
03-06-2011, 06:34 PM
Something that I felt God has showed me is that I will not be able to control what happens to DS in the future - when he is an adult, I will not be there to micro-manage his life. What matters is my reactions to the issues that come up between us - that is what he will remember and will stick with him.

It helps me remember to be the adult in the situation.

TenderLovingWillow
03-07-2011, 08:19 PM
Uh.. Could we sticky this? Pretty please? I *know* I will be coming back to this in the future.

For me, even being able to understand the OP was HUGE as a year ago I would have read it and been completly lost and had no idea what it was communicating.

However, I do still "miss the point" of GBD. I am learning.. But honestly its soooooo hard to even tell if my motives in situations are gentle/relationship based or not. I am totally understanding what Mommy5 and jessisblessed are saying, cuz I am so there. And I found GCM somewhat early on in my parenting life.. DS was 3 months, and I stalked for 2 months before joining when he was 5 months.

Damselfly
03-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Katigre, if you don't mind I'm going to print these out and put them on my fridge. Thank you so much. How helpful!

Rose5000
03-09-2011, 02:04 AM
By the same token, however, just because the consequence makes them feel badly, does not mean it is wrong to use that consequence or is punitive, etc.

Kids are fighting over a toy. They've been warned that the toy will be taken away and they will be separated if they cannot stop fighting.

What response teaches/enforces healthy boundaries?"
I will put the toy on the top shelf in my closet, so that everyone will learn to take turns or play together. I will separate the children so that they will not hurt one another and will understand that they will lose the privelege of playing together if they can't play together without fighting."Will this response help keep everyone safe?" Yes, and it will keep the toy from getting broken.

"What values do I want to teach in this situation?" I want to teach them to be kind to one another, and to be careful with their things. Patience, responsibility also play a part.

"Will my response teach them a pattern for how to act in the future?"
Yes, they will learn that there are consequences to our behavior, both positive or negative.


Now, the children may not like this response at all. They may howl and kick and fuss, etc. But it is a fair and logical consequence, and it isn't punitive, at least to me. I'm not trying to punish them, I'm attempting to teach them how to get along with others, how to be responsible with their belongings, etc. Not attempting to punish them because their behavior has angered me, and they 'deserve' to have their toys taken and not to be allowed to play together.

In Christ,
Joy

Wouldn't it be better to give the children *words* they can say to each other when fighting over a toy is taking place.....teach them *how* to get along....watch them closely so you can intervene when you figure out who is the perpetrator, by intervene I mean, at that very moment, give them verbal proactive teaching, to actually *show* them how to get along and share with each other, take turns, etc. ?

How does putting the toy on the shelf *teach* them to take turns or play together? Isn't teaching active verbalization?

I think if we are right there with them when they are playing it is possible to work with them and instruct them how to get along, mostly by giving them words to say to their brother or sister, like, "what you just did upset me...I want to play with the toy *this* way....An example would be yesterday in my home, my 7 yr old had set up a board with some toys on the end of it and he was rolling a golf ball to play "bowling" the toys down. His 5 yo sister came along (I didn't see this) and must have interrupted his play or taken one of the toys and played with it in a less controlled fashion, and this upset my boy, who started yelling at her. At that point I need to join them, sit down at the floor with them and help my son to "explain" to his sister that he was using the golf balls to play bowling, and I could *help* her to join in with his game without distrubing its setup. By *being * there w/ my children, I think I can do some of this more proactive teaching. sort of like Joanne's GOYB parenting (get off your butt). Does this make sense?

bolt.
03-09-2011, 09:08 AM
With young children (which I have) I generally find that 'in the moment' is the worst time to try to engage in teaching of any kind. Their emotions are raw, and they simply feel protective, or angry or whatever -- a state that is not excellent for learning new concepts or picking up new skills.

Instead, the incident functions as a note-to-self that these children don't have all the sharing skills (or whatever) that they need right now, so I should make a clear and specific plan to teach them those skills and practice them at a later time, when they are calm, cheerful and open to learning and pleasing their Mama.

So, in the meantime, I simply put the toy "up" to end the hard feelings and put a stop to the continuing incident -- emphasising nothing more than that I consider people more important than things.

By the time they hit 7-10 years old, perhaps the delay is not nessisary any more. Maybe I will be able to phase it out and go directly to teaching 'in the moment' as they get older -- but for now, my experiences lead me to let the incident rest and the feelings settle before trying to impart or re-enforce a skill set.

TenderLovingWillow
03-09-2011, 09:18 AM
With young children (which I have) I generally find that 'in the moment' is the worst time to try to engage in teaching of any kind. Their emotions are raw, and they simply feel protective, or angry or whatever -- a state that is not excellent for learning new concepts or picking up new skills.




Just a question.. Hopefully not to OT, but with young kids, does teaching verbally do any good after they have been removed from the situation?

My DS is not even 2 yet... But we always try to verbally teach while redirecting/correcting behaviour. For instance we say "Gentle Touches" at the same time as helping him slow the intensity of his hitting. Or we say "food goes on plates" while helping him put food back on the plate.

Are we talking about 2 different things? The scenario with the toys has only happened like twice, and we handle it differntly with a less than 2 y/o.. I just say "Mamma will keep that and you can play with ____ and you can play with _____. Distracting both parties.. So I guess I don't really get into the whole sharing thing either, though, my child is much younger.

Anyways, I just wanted to throw that out there..

Chaos Coordinator
03-09-2011, 09:41 AM
i think she is talking about during moments with big feelings involved where children aren't going to be able to focus on what you're telling them. the brain is already in the distress state and the child is not going to be able to re-route their neurochemicals (most adults can't, either, actually :shrug). when child is in the distressed state is not the time to try and engage them in any sort of learning. really its more of a learning moment for the parent of how they can help their child in the future.

for instance, last time we were at the store H picked out chocolate teddy grahams. this time, i picked out cinnamon teddy grahams for him because they have less sugar. but i know from experience that if he asks for bear crackers and doesn't get the ones he had before, he will enter into distress tantrum mode - he will be confused, frustrated, and overwhelmed. so when we were at the checkout, i showed him the box and said "I got you some more bear crackers. But look, these are NOT chocolate, okay? They're cinnamon."

of course i can't guarantee that he will be ok with that when the time comes, but explaining to him beforehand, i've learned, helps him handle the situation better when it comes time.

if i were to wait until he was already having a meltdown because they weren't the right crackers, it would be pointless to try and use that as a teaching moment for him. i've already used experiences similar to this to teach myself that something has to be done beforehand to help him and better prepare him to handle the situation.

bolt.
03-09-2011, 09:52 AM
with young kids, does teaching verbally do any good after they have been removed from the situation?
At 2, I don't do anything exclusively verbally. Perhaps it makes more sense to call it 'teaching through pantomime' rather than teaching verbally. Basically you would re-create a similar situation, but without the intensity, perhaps with yourself playing the part of a child too.

I never used "gentle touches" in the situation when a child is hitting. I don't need the child to touch gently, and s/he probably doesn't want to be doing that. The only thing I need is for the child to cease 'touching painfully' -- in which case, not touching at all is a perfectly valid option. So, in looking for a command of what 'to do' the best I could come up with was, "nice or nothing" -- which isn't as clear as I usually like for a command/instruction, but it's the best I could do.

(I also use, "eat tidy" instead of the more specific instruction about food and plates. I like my commands/instructions to be kind of broad in scope, so their aren't so many to learn... "eat tidy" means lots of things, so it is good and flexible, as well as being clear.)

The point of that kind of verbalization during toddler re-direction (and even with babies) is simply to define the words for him/her, so that they are familiar to the child, and they begin to seem 'written in stone' as a natural part of the cause-and-effect universe... since every time they get said, they effectively happen, and it never happens that they are said and the thing doesn't happen.

(This sneaking commands/instructions into their cause-and-effect scheme early seriously eases the years up to about 4.5, when they suddenly realize that they have the capacity to buck the system that they have previously accepted as "just the way reality is." -- Which is one of the reasons to have a very few specific and recognizable commands, rather than using more conversational and situational instructions all over the map at the toddler age.)

If sharing is not an age appropreate skill to be teaching a particualr child, then you wouldn't teach it at all. But if your method of teaching includes plently of kindness and fun, and occurs outside of the moment -- there's no harm in giving it a try, just to see whether the child can or can't pick it up just now.

gpsings
03-09-2011, 10:14 AM
what are your goals? Are they short term management or long term leadership? In the moment are you being the adult you want them to become?



Totally worth a repeat appearance in this thread. Thank you for this wisdom, Crystal. When my kids see me in a state of sobbing frustration....the learn what?
They need to see strength there too.

GentleMomof4
03-09-2011, 10:56 AM
i think she is talking about during moments with big feelings involved where children aren't going to be able to focus on what you're telling them. the brain is already in the distress state and the child is not going to be able to re-route their neurochemicals (most adults can't, either, actually :shrug). when child is in the distressed state is not the time to try and engage them in any sort of learning. really its more of a learning moment for the parent of how they can help their child in the future.

for instance, last time we were at the store H picked out chocolate teddy grahams. this time, i picked out cinnamon teddy grahams for him because they have less sugar. but i know from experience that if he asks for bear crackers and doesn't get the ones he had before, he will enter into distress tantrum mode - he will be confused, frustrated, and overwhelmed. so when we were at the checkout, i showed him the box and said "I got you some more bear crackers. But look, these are NOT chocolate, okay? They're cinnamon."

of course i can't guarantee that he will be ok with that when the time comes, but explaining to him beforehand, i've learned, helps him handle the situation better when it comes time.

if i were to wait until he was already having a meltdown because they weren't the right crackers, it would be pointless to try and use that as a teaching moment for him. i've already used experiences similar to this to teach myself that something has to be done beforehand to help him and better prepare him to handle the situation.
I totally get this. I try to put myself in other people's shoes and figure out what they're feeling. So if I look at it that way, when I'm having "big feelings" I don't want someone trying to make it better or tell me this is what I should do, I just need some time to deal with those feelings. Once I've got that under control I'm more likely to be accepting to learning something new. Don't know if that makes sense?

Sakura
03-09-2011, 11:08 AM
Katigre--thank you so much :heart You have shown with this post (and all sorts of others of course, but this was the crown :) ) that you totally get it. And, I'm sure you know as I do, that getting it doesn't mean you always are able to accomplish it :hug We're all human and we all make mistakes.

In response to some of the responses . . . I really do get the struggle with feeling overwhelmed by a faulty paradigm. The thing is, and what Katigre is trying to say, focus on changing the paradigm. Run towards a totally new way of doing things. Throw out everything--rather than trying to focus on getting through this or that situation, pull back and look at the big picture. :heart

what are your goals? Are they short term management or long term leadership? In the moment are you being the adult you want them to become?

If not--then the real focus needs to be on becoming the adult you want them to become--and as you do, they will follow you. That's how it works. Where they are is where you've led them--their behaviors are on them, but the overall dynamic, the big picture, YOU choose the canvas, you set the stage. It's scary--especially when you've had no one model it done lovingly and gently. But YOU get to do it now. So decide who YOU want to be--then be that you. And you will parent differently :heart

If you are in the situation where you're even asking "is this punitive/gentle" then you've let things go too far. Muddle through the best you can today and then YOU learn from it--figure out where to stop things before they get there.

Of course, if you have children under the age of 5, just stop stressing. Focus on your boundaries, and what you want to do, and what you will do--because they are going to act their age no matter what you do. This is the age to focus on how you respond--to focus on BEING the parent you want to be. At these ages it is NOT about outcome--the results will not show themselves for years. Think of the parable of the rich man who owned a field and sowed wheat and during the night the enemy sowed weeds. The workers wanted permission to go out and pull up all the weeds but the landowner said NO--because you might pull out wheat with the weeds. Let them both grow up together and then you will know which is which--and pull out the weeds before the wheat is harvested. (totally paraphrasing--but the parable fits here :heart)

In the toddler/preschool years what may look like a weed is often an immature fruit, and what may look beautiful may turn out to be the bud of a weed. Just focus on building your gardening tools and then when you know which is which you will be prepared :heart

Thank you, thank you Crystal and Katigre and bolt, etc, etc!

This is just a GREAT thread!!

NewLeaf
03-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Thank you Katigre!


Think of the parable of the rich man who owned a field and sowed wheat and during the night the enemy sowed weeds. The workers wanted permission to go out and pull up all the weeds but the landowner said NO--because you might pull out wheat with the weeds. Let them both grow up together and then you will know which is which--and pull out the weeds before the wheat is harvested. (totally paraphrasing--but the parable fits here :heart)

In the toddler/preschool years what may look like a weed is often an immature fruit, and what may look beautiful may turn out to be the bud of a weed. Just focus on building your gardening tools and then when you know which is which you will be prepared :heart
And this parable is just so :amen and :heart. That is the big picture I want to keep in my head! :rockon

And I agree with so many here that this is a great overall philosophy to follow and gives a great big picture but of course many of us need someone to walk us through the tough moments when the big picture is just too big. :yes GCM has been life saving for me in those moments. :gcm

Rose5000
03-09-2011, 01:17 PM
bolt--if I took the toy away when they were fighting it would not make them feel or learn that people are more important than things, my son would have a kaniptchin fit. he would go ballistic. so i guess that means he is not at the age where doing that would be approproate anymore.

bolt.
03-09-2011, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure what you mean about him not being at an age where it's appropreate to remove toys that are part of a conflict anymore... just because it makes him upset? Of course it upsets kids to remove things they enjoy. That (in itself) does not mean it's not an age-appropreate strategy.

But if teaching 'in the moment' is working for you -- if it diffuses the situation and leads to good things, then it's probably a good strategy. They'd probably learn faster if you also did some focused instruction in how to get allong, without there being a situation at-hand as well. I consider calm-times teaching much more pro-active than situational intervention, because it can be cohesive and more straightforward, rather than the kids having to put together what they've learned from a wide variety of situations.

What I mean is that it doesn't so much matter how a parent diffuses a conflict situation, as long as that's not the only time good skills are being taught and re-enforced... simply because instruction that is being recieved while a person is under stress or emotionality is less likely to 'stick' well and/or less likely to be integrated into future behaviour choices.

SweetCaroline
03-09-2011, 03:40 PM
i take the toy and set my "sharing timer".. usually the littlest one gets the first turn. sharing is what they need help doing , so i'll help them share. the timer makes it concrete

i know thats just one example, but you can do *some things* in the moment:shrug3

Hermana Linda
03-09-2011, 04:26 PM
Since I have a keen eye for the obvious, I just thought it might be helpful to point out that each child is unique and what works for one child may or may not work for another regardless of age. :O

Stiina
03-11-2011, 07:46 PM
Love this thread. Thanks so much everyone - I'm anoter one that's new to the idea, and am having trouble seeing the whole picture sometimes! :heart

Annainprogress
03-12-2011, 03:21 PM
I've kinda been following those thread but subbing it now so I definitely don't miss anything :)

Chaos Coordinator
03-12-2011, 08:54 PM
i dont know about in my own home, with my own kids, or with gbd since i am rather new at it, but i know when i was working in childcare i absolutely could. not. stand. squabbles over toys. the toy was immediately removed and the children were sent away to find something else to play with. i dont know where that falls on the line of whether or not its punitive. cause i'm still one of those that is constantly having to ask.

SweetCaroline
03-12-2011, 09:55 PM
i dont know about in my own home, with my own kids, or with gbd since i am rather new at it, but i know when i was working in childcare i absolutely could. not. stand. squabbles over toys. the toy was immediately removed and the children were sent away to find something else to play with. i dont know where that falls on the line of whether or not its punitive. cause i'm still one of those that is constantly having to ask.
thats doesnt seem punitive to me so much as it just doesnt really equip with any skills towards learning how to share in the future :shrug3
but..hey. do you see my kids ages?? i totally understand the "ok, i've had enough of this rediculous arguing" thing. thats why my siggy line reads the way it does. im breaking up fights, scripting for them, and setting darn timers all.day.long.
being a "peacemaker"

Cook
03-13-2011, 08:48 PM
thats doesnt seem punitive to me so much as it just doesnt really equip with any skills towards learning how to share in the future :shrug3
but..hey. do you see my kids ages?? i totally understand the "ok, i've had enough of this rediculous arguing" thing. thats why my siggy line reads the way it does. im breaking up fights, scripting for them, and setting darn timers all.day.long.
being a "peacemaker"

Yeah I'm thinking this makes sense as more setting the stage than punishment. Natural consequence than reaction.

Idk. I'm SO new at this. I was raised em in no particular order. At all. My parents are divorced. My mom single raised for a while until her mother moved in who spanked with spoons. My mom NEVER spanked but rather ruled through emotions- crying fits when I misbehaved. I was scared and slept in bed with her until I am not gonna admit. Not co-slept, was literally afraid to be alone. Probably 7ish? My step dad was abusive, so I moved in with my dad in my teen years- he was WAY more gbd and I totally love that about him and his now exwife. But by then I was so far gone I rebelled to everything.

All that leads to: My husband's family- nuclear. He was spanked- he still jokes that his mother couldn't count because she always doled out more than she'd promised. I love him. I want to make more people in the world like him because of how much I love and admire the man he is. But I can't shake the nagging feeling: The kids still misbehaved. Why is my focus on making them stop? Clearly, it can't be done. -Another part of what sent me down this particular road! Furthermore, as much as I started my parenting journey out of love for my husband, seeing what can happen when we hold kids to expectations like that scares me. I don't want them to be him anymore and we both agree on that. We want them to be who God wants them to be!

Idk. I don't even know what "good" punitive discipline looks like. But I know I have NO business spanking. I can't do that and still be loving minded (I'm sure yall understand that) and I have no idea how others do- AND being able to do so makes me wonder if they "shut something down" to get to that place emotionally.

My kids are so young too... I am so grateful for the statements on the approach in this stage. But it does look like inaction and feel like it at times to be honest, when you have no clear basis to form it on and those "supporting" you in daily life are unaware of accurate developmental expectations. In one breath I'm told not to get my son a label because he's too young and the other he's being told to sit still and be quiet in a totally difficult circumstance. I'm downloading some books and trying to get into the scripture references I've been finding. For me, right now, it's like being at an eye exam. Sometimes it makes perfect sense but at other moments it seems fuzzy and I'm unsure. But most "new" things are like that.

Idk. I can totally relate to questioning things- I LOVE this thread. I wanted to mention also that for me for sure, this was a process. I did positive parenting techniques for months before it started making sense about the importance of the relationship you must build on the front end. I've always been an active parent but now we do child directed play times each day etc. It wasn't that I didn't want to give my kids that time- But society as a whole places FAR more focus on the response aspect of parting- Getting control of your kids! I had no idea how crucial it was to put more energy into the relationship building in the "before behavior" style. I remember before I got that, one of our home visits the lady just looked like "Okay, you aren't ready for that yet" when I was asking how to word a specific rule. Even after I started getting her gist, it wasn't until the Christan aspect of it came into focus that I actually started feeling it really click. I say all that to say: just because one asks oddly specific questions on the wrong end, doesn't mean they don't get it- maybe they are just on their way :D

Amyables
03-16-2011, 06:38 PM
Those are great questions to ask yourself! I am constantly having to take a minute (or more literally I guess it would be a few seconds) to go over what impact my reaction will have with my 2 1/2 year old. After a while it does become second nature, and you start to see how a gentle reply/redirection/correction is not permissive, but rather addresses a situation in a way that fulfills your child's inner needs and doesn't shame them for whatever experimentation they were doing.

I like to use the word experiment when I think/talk about misbehaviors. Because really, from the child's perspective, that's exactly what they're doing: experimenting to see how their action will play out.

Maggirayne
06-10-2011, 07:57 PM
:bump Did this get stickied?

COTK
06-10-2011, 09:37 PM
Maggirayne, I saw this because of your :bump! :ty

Crystal, you said we need to get to the point where we are the adult we want them to be......that is *such* a great thing to hold in our minds...

one thing that I want to learn to do is have amazing conversations with my dd during those teaching moments... how do I learn to do *THAT* without an example to see? Some of the conversations you've had with your kids that I've read in your writings just make me :jawdrop ... you are so incredibly skilled at breaking things down to their level, but not "dumbing" it down... is there a book I can read or something? I so long to be a wise teacher, to help her make sense of life...but I don't even understand most of life right now...... :(

My inner voice speech I'm developing for when I am in a frustrating situation with her is getting longer and longer... so far I have,

"She's four!! She's just four. Four!!! She doesn't *know* everything I think she knows! She is just trying to communicate her needs, like a baby that cries for everything, only she has some words now. But she is still learning how to get her words, thoughts, and actions lined up right. I am, too and I'm 30 for goodness sake! What does she need right now? Relationship, relationship, relationship, relationship!!!"

Ok, that's the long version... the quick-get-my-blood-pressure-down-before-I-lose-it version would be,

"She's four!!! Relationship, relationship, relationship!!!" :)

(Thanks to this thread. :heart)

Amahoro
06-11-2011, 12:05 AM
I :love this thread

:popcorn to learn the scripts... :)

ArmsOfLove
06-11-2011, 12:18 AM
one thing that I want to learn to do is have amazing conversations with my dd during those teaching moments... how do I learn to do *THAT* without an example to see? Some of the conversations you've had with your kids that I've read in your writings just make me :jawdrop ... you are so incredibly skilled at breaking things down to their level, but not "dumbing" it down... is there a book I can read or something? I so long to be a wise teacher, to help her make sense of life...but I don't even understand most of life right now. First, thank you for your kind words :hug

As for how to know what to say . . . it really helps that I taught the Kindergarten class at the church where I learned a lot of what was to become the foundations for GBD :heart I realized when you can figure out how to explain deep theological concepts, and big life concepts, to children then you can explain them to anyone. But getting there meant I tuned in to the very confused faces of children as I tried to explain those things. Lots of :shifty :shifty :shifty before I finally got a :idea You should have seen the little boy who was saying his throat hurt when I asked if he was just a little hoarse? :jawdrop No, I mean, did he have a frog in his throat? :hunh :no I mean . . . does your throat hurt? "Oh, yes." :phew

mostly I just think about what the basics of something end up being. And I try to tell it in a story-telling way. It also really helps that my oldest has autism because when you start out your mothering having to explain what a smile and a frown are you learn how to explain lots of things most people take for granted. And, as it turns out, that has allowed me to explain things to my children very early compared to when lots of children will pick things up. You might see if your library has some books on Social Stories in the special needs section--you can see lots of story telling and dialoguing broken down into very simple terms.

I also love, "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" :heart

hth :hug

mokamoto
06-11-2011, 12:57 AM
What an insightful post!!! Thank you!

Domina
06-11-2011, 05:47 AM
As someone exploring the GBD mindset for the first time, I found this thread incredibly helpful. Agree it should be a sticky.

mokamoto
06-11-2011, 03:13 PM
YES!!! Please make this a sticky!! It propogated so many lightbulb moments for me. I am not new to GBD, but have been struggling to overcome the punitive thinking I grew up with. DS and DD are coming into their more mature personalities and have strong wills. (I wonder where they get it from? LoL) In these new challenges, I keep coming back to the punitive or gentle question and then feel stressed bc when I use gentleness, my 5yo DS ignores me. :bag I have lately been yelling a lot. I found too that the yelling sets a tone which can become a mood. I don't like this pattern but seemed stuck in it. The questions posed in the first post definitely caused "aha!" moments for me. I think I am now at a breakthrough!!! :-) :ty4 This explanation could really steer newbies in the right direction as a sticky!

Virginia
06-11-2011, 03:34 PM
This thread has been so helpful. Thank you to everyone who has posted, asked questions, and shared stories :heart

I was raised in a punitive household. It has affected me so.very.deeply. Even now, as I try to embrace a GBD mindset and shift my paradigm, I struggle greatly. It's so encouraging to come here and know that we are from all different walks of life, but we share such similar goals :heart I'm incredibly thankful that I've found GCM before even having kids, and I think that stickying this thread is a fabulous idea :) :)

ArmsOfLove
06-11-2011, 06:18 PM
Stickying :)

GranolanRainbows
06-12-2011, 03:01 PM
You gave me the exact answer that I needed to a question that I was asking in prayer today. Thank you!!! :heart

Beauty4Ashes
06-19-2011, 05:34 PM
I really needed to read this. With my older two, I am struggling with how they are using their words, i.e. sassy tone of voice, disrespectful words, etc. I just want it to stop all ready. Then I remembered that I need to keep relationships in mind, not just trying to be right. Thanks everyone!

Tandem mama
07-19-2011, 05:07 AM
I've only read the op here, but this was very timely :) I was going to post about punishment vs consequences and what is the difference? We are having...disobedience issues, I suppose is the best thing to call them, with my three year old. I feel it's become something that needs a consequence so she can learn no means no. But I don't want to punish her, I want her to learn.

bolt.
07-19-2011, 09:55 AM
It doens't require a consiquence to teach a child that 'no means no' -- all it requires is the parent making sure that every time they say 'no' the thing they said 'no' about does not occur. Then it becomes perfectly obvious what 'no' means... it means that the thing is absolutely not going to happen.

(Of course, 'no' is a fairly vauge word... it's not exactly easy to obey the word 'no' without processing the context and making a guess about the parent's implications. Many children find more specific instructions easier to follow -- such as 'stop' - 'be still' or 'hands off'.)

Tandem mama
07-19-2011, 11:01 AM
It doens't require a consiquence to teach a child that 'no means no' -- all it requires is the parent making sure that every time they say 'no' the thing they said 'no' about does not occur. Then it becomes perfectly obvious what 'no' means... it means that the thing is absolutely not going to happen.

(Of course, 'no' is a fairly vauge word... it's not exactly easy to obey the word 'no' without processing the context and making a guess about the parent's implications. Many children find more specific instructions easier to follow -- such as 'stop' - 'be still' or 'hands off'.)

I do specify. Rarely do i even say "no" rather I say why she ought not to do what she wants.

DancingWithElves
07-19-2011, 11:13 AM
i've only read up to the first response by aol

i like the op and i hope many find it useful.

but this is what i mean when i ask, if something i did is punitive: ''i am guessing at normal b/c for most of my life i've lived in a twisted, cruel, unreal world of my abusive caregivers. i have the right goals, i understand gbd. but half the stuff i do, whether it relates to my children or not, feels "off", feels wrong, feels punitive, feels wrong, feels sinful, etc. so, seeing as how i assume you nice ladies are not half as screwed up as i am, can you please look at this situation and reassure me that up is still in the direction i believe it's in"

changing paradigm, changing parenting, changing understanding of grace, starting over with God does not bring instant healing :no does not even bring swift healing in my experience :no it's taking time and in the meanwhile i need to know that i can rely on my sisters to tell me if i'm on the right track, although everything feels wrong. :shrug

filmgirl2911
07-19-2011, 11:36 AM
:cup

I just found this and want to be able to find it again. This seems pretty helpful for me. Especially with my very, very, very close to 3.5 y.o. :yes

Tandem mama
07-19-2011, 11:55 AM
:cup

I just found this and want to be able to find it again. This seems pretty helpful for me. Especially with my very, very, very close to 3.5 y.o. :yes

From my thread about my 3.5 Yo earlier I'm seeing that 3.5 is a trying time.

The Tickle Momster
08-29-2011, 10:12 PM
Re-reading this thread tonight. :ty3 for the insight, questions and reminders. I am off to make posters for my kitchen cupboards of the questions listed in the OP. One will contain a change I wanted to share. "Will my response teach them an APPROPRIATE pattern for how to act in the future?" Any response will teach a pattern, an appropriate one is harder and more important.

Things have been rough here lately. Answering the questions Crystal posted is on my prayer list for the next several days. Who do I want to be? What are my goals?

mokamoto
08-30-2011, 04:32 AM
Thanks for posting this, Tickle Momster. I am relecting a lot lately, too and this thread is perfect for my current re-assessment. :yes :heart