Can we talk about "power" (in Parenthood episode)?

[TraceMama]

Spoiler Alert: I'm going to be referring to last night's episode of Parenthood. If you're a fan and don't want me to ruin any details, please don't read.

Last night on the TV show Parenthood, there was an issue regarding power as it plays out in the family dynamic. I was hoping we could talk about it.
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Here's the storyline: a six year old told her parents that she was now vegetarian. Her parents decided to try and honor her decision. The next evening, the grandparents came over bearing a freshly baked lasagna that the grandmother had prepared. The parents told the grandparents that dd wouldn't eat it, because she was vegetarian. The grandfather got down on dd's level and began with "Now, your Grandma made this lasagna especially for you." The mother cut him off and told him to go easy on dd.

Then the grandma made dd another dinner, which she also refused to eat. The grandfather was astounded and reinforced that now his wife had made her 2 dinners to eat. Then, the grandpa put a piece of lasagna on dd's plate and told her, "You have to eat either the lasagna or the other dinner or you won't leave the table."

The following day the mother comes to talk to the grandpa. She basically tells him that she didn't agree with what he did and that she's trying not to squelch her daughter's spirit and that what the grandpa did was undermining her authority as the parent.

Then, the grandpa responds by telling her that she needs to have the power in the relationship. The grandma enters and backs up grandpa, saying that he loves and adores dd, everything he does is out of love and also that he's right and that the dd does have too much power and that it's unbalanced, and that she's only six years old and shouldn't have that much power.
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Sorry for the book. :bag Anyway, the episode is bringing up some big feelings for me and pinging my radar so to speak. :-/

What's your take on it? Was the mother giving the dd too much "power" by allowing her to choose vegetarian? Or are we just hearing the old guard and punitive parenting here in the voices of the grandparents?

[MomtoJGJ]

:shifty I think they were just setting up for something to happen later. Typically if this show says or does something I disagree with, within a few episodes it's put to right.

ETA: I haven't actually seen this episode yet, just basing on past times of things that ping my radar. Without having seen it, I'm guessing maybe something along the lines of her saying "well I don't want you to have another baby" and the parents saying something about it's not up to her to choose and a big blow up and they realize they've been permissive in areas, etc.

[TraceMama]

Well, the grandma backing the grandpa allowed him to feel her support and love and they reconciled their relationship. :shrug3

But, the whole "power" conversation is playing over and over for me, because I've heard "you're giving him too much power" from family members. :-/ And I'm pretty sure that everything the grandpa said and did would be done by my parents. :shrug

[MomtoJGJ]

oh I didn't think about that being big with her backing him!

I edited my post a bit... don't know if you saw that.

[TraceMama]

I can see that with the baby issue. :think

In this instance, though, are the parents being permissive?

[fireweedmama]

I didn't see all the show but I did see the scene with both grandparents and the daughter. I don't really understand why it's a big deal for a 6 year old to choose to become a vegetarian :scratch and allowing that to happen.

[TraceMama]

I'm thinking how it could've been handled differently. Instead of trying to make the girl feel obligated to eat the food that had been prepared (which is really shaming), couldn't they just have allowed her not to eat and had the natural consequence of being hungry. :shrug

[Nightingale]

I haven't watched the whole scene yet, I came in at the tail end of it...was the second meal the grandma made a meatless meal or did it have meat in it?

[MomtoJGJ]

I don't think that would be permissive, but the kid does tend to be rude :shifty I still think it was setting up for some other situation where she will try to have power in a situation because of their attempts to make her into a strong woman in which she really doesn't need to have the power and it will cause an issue that will cause it all to be resolved in a big sit down with her to discuss "rules"

Such as "It's ok for you to not want to eat meat, but everyone else has the choice and you shouldn't force your beliefs on anyone OR be rude to them because of their choices."

[TraceMama]

I haven't watched the whole scene yet, I came in at the tail end of it...was the second meal the grandma made a meatless meal or did it have meat in it?

I think the second meal was meat-less. :think Seitan or something like that, since the grandpa kept calling it satan :giggle Oh, and the girl said she didn't like the second meal.

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

I think I'm also trying to figure out how the mother could have handled it when BOTH of her parents had issue with her parenting. :think

[MomtoJGJ]

ooh... just an idea... maybe they are setting it up so the kids will tell the grandparents THEY have too much power?

but that's because it irked me that they let the 16yo run away from home and protected her from her parents (even though I thought the parents were in the wrong)

[teamommy]

I did not see the episode, but isn't that an ongoing issue with that little girl, that everyone is telling the mom (maybe even the dad? correct me if I've got it mixed up) that she is permissive?

If the grandmother cooked a whole other dinner for my vegetarian 6 year old, on short notice, I'd be having a talk with her about how it would be rude to not at least try a few bites. :shifty I don't know what the girl's reaction was, but was she rude at the table? Did she make comments about the food?

I wouldn't force a child to eat anything, though.

[WanderingJuniper]

Both ends are out of balance imo from the blurb in the OP. I didn't see the episode and probably won't have a chance for a while. :shrug

Have more thoughts but they are a bit scattered.

[HomeWithMyBabies]

I'm thinking how it could've been handled differently. Instead of trying to make the girl feel obligated to eat the food that had been prepared (which is really shaming), couldn't they just have allowed her not to eat and had the natural consequence of being hungry. :shrug

That's what I likely would have done, or she could have made herself a sandwich. I did not like the "your gramma slaved over this" business, I thought it was manipulative. I was half asleep when I watched but I don't recall the girl being impolite, and manners are generally my focus with food.

At the same time, I don't know why the mom didn't prepare something ahead of time for her dd given the recent change in her diet. Maybe it's because I deal with food allergies/intolerances, but I don't expect sitters or grandparents to have something to feed my kids under most circumstances.

[Nightingale]

It seems to me that the issue wasn't as much that she's a vegetarian as that, yes, the grandma cooked her a non-meat meal and the little girl was quite a snot :shifty about it. That's when I tuned in, when she was crossing her arms and staring the Grandpa down. I DO think they are probably too permissive with her and give her too much power. And I think that we *can* give our kids too much power.

[TraceMama]

I think the Mom was surprised that the grandma brought dinner. I think she had the fixings for dinner at her house. :shrug3

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

It seems to me that the issue wasn't as much that she's a vegetarian as that, yes, the grandma cooked her a non-meat meal and the little girl was quite a snot :shifty about it. That's when I tuned in, when she was crossing her arms and staring the Grandpa down. I DO think they are probably too permissive with her and give her too much power. And I think that we *can* give our kids too much power.

She only crossed her arms and stared down the grandpa AFTER he said, "You're not leaving this table until you eat one of these meals." Most strong-willed kids would dig in their heels at that point.

So what about this episode and this scenario is giving the girl too much power? :think

[HomeWithMyBabies]

The grandparents start blowing off the child's new diet immediately, and the grandfather even pulls out the hurt feelings card.

I'm watching it on Hulu right now, and the grandmother assumes the girl doesn't like it which the girl confirms. Then the girl says she'll just eat dessert, is told by grandmother to try more of the food, and the little girl says no thank you. That's when the grandfather pulls out the ultimatum, eat one of the dinners or don't get up from the table. As a child would probably dig in at that point too. In fact, I usually did, and wound up sitting all night at the table with untouched food until bed. Nobody "won."

The fact that she wants dessert instead says to me that meals are handled differently than I do it here. That probably wouldn't cross my child's mind as we don't do dessert, and my oldest especially knows that something substantial and nutritious must be eaten before any of the seldom foods are an option.

[Nightingale]

well, I guess partly we'll have to see where the show DOES take this storyline. I know that one of my kids has tried to pull the "I'm a vegetarian" when she just didn't feel like eating the meal we had...no matter that she'd had bacon or something that morning for breakfast :rolleyes I have another one who would only eat broccoli for her veggie for 2 weeks straight and one night threw a fit because she didn't like broccoli, she wanted a different veggie and within a couple nights was back to broccoli. So...I'm kinda struggling with the power thing and thinking about it through this episode/family as well.

I think it's the general trend of these parents to give this little girl too much power, though. :think

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 PM ----------

as I'm watching this morning...

The little girl told the mom that grandpa tried to force her to eat meat. That's not what happened. :no he said the lasagna (which has previously been her favorite) or the seitan.

Anyway, I know this isn't exclusively about the show :giggle but I do think these parents have given her too much power. Even in the initial scene where she declares she's a vegetarian they still tell her to eat the chicken and she says no and they just look at her. Apparently they had a discussion to follow her lead between when that occurred and when she went to the grandparents. :think

[TraceMama]

I think that after the girl decided she was vegetarian that she had stuck with it for a few days already. :shrug3

My dc wouldn't have asked for dessert either, since we rarely have it. :no If they had asked for dessert, our rule is that dessert only comes after a meal has been eaten -- that doesn't always mean *all* of the meal.

I'm pretty sure I was reacting to the tactics employed by the grandfather -- i.e. dismissing the granddaughter's dietary preference, attempting to manipulate her into eating the food because grandma had spent time making it (can we call this shaming?), and then the ultimatum resulting in a lose-lose. :think Please let me know if I'm mis-reading anything there. :)

Then, when the daughter confronts her parents, she's told that she is indeed wrong and her parenting is called into question.

Those two things ruffled my feathers because they hit *very* close to home. :yes2

It's likely that the parents swing from permissive to punitive and back again. :think The little girl likely does have too much power in certain instances, but I'm not positive that I saw it in last night's episode alone. :think

[Nightingale]

yeah, I didn't like the grandpa's shaming tactics either.

[TraceMama]

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 PM ----------

as I'm watching this morning...

The little girl told the mom that grandpa tried to force her to eat meat. That's not what happened. :no he said the lasagna (which has previously been her favorite) or the seitan.

Anyway, I know this isn't exclusively about the show :giggle but I do think these parents have given her too much power. Even in the initial scene where she declares she's a vegetarian they still tell her to eat the chicken and she says no and they just look at her. Apparently they had a discussion to follow her lead between when that occurred and when she went to the grandparents. :think

An ultimatum of "you eat one of these meals or you leave the table" would feel like "forcing" to a child. What if the child doesn't like the second meal? Then what?

Instead of just looking at her, what could they have done? I mean, really, if she's choosing right then to be a vegetarian and they believe her, what's the other option? :think

At what point do we allow our children to make major decisions about their food choices up to them? What's permissive and what's controlling? :think

I'm just asking questions at this point to tease out what I think about this :) The questions aren't directed and anyone particular. :no

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

yeah, I didn't like the grandpa's shaming tactics either.

I was at once the little girl and also the mother. :-/ I was also squirming. :shifty

[ashleyhuney]

She only crossed her arms and stared down the grandpa AFTER he said, "You're not leaving this table until you eat one of these meals." Most strong-willed kids would dig in their heels at that point.

So what about this episode and this scenario is giving the girl too much power? :think[/QUOTE]

I agree, I would have stayed at that table all night as a child, and would have left the table as a teen:shrug3

I think that the parents do error on the permissive side, while it's within a child's right to decide to be vegetarian there should have been some ground rules. Like if she's not going to eat meat than she needs to eat other protein to stay healthy and that dessert still only comes after an eaten meal.

The power/grandpa thing struck home. My in-laws say things like this all the time. I think that they overstepped their bounds as non-parents and that the mother handled confronting them with that well. When the grandma sided with the grandpa and said that he did what he did out of love and basically both of them telling the mother she is parenting wrong I was upset. My DH says that about his mother all the time, and my typical response is that I don't care if she's doing xyz out of love she's doing it wrong.:shifty

[MyTesoros]

I did not see the episode, but isn't that an ongoing issue with that little girl, that everyone is telling the mom (maybe even the dad? correct me if I've got it mixed up) that she is permissive?

If the grandmother cooked a whole other dinner for my vegetarian 6 year old, on short notice, I'd be having a talk with her about how it would be rude to not at least try a few bites. :shifty I don't know what the girl's reaction was, but was she rude at the table? Did she make comments about the food?

I wouldn't force a child to eat anything, though.
I say this kindly, not to criticize you: Are you sure you think it is rude for a child to decline to try a few bites? Telling a child such a thing could cause her to eat for the wrong reasons, such as to be "polite" or to please other people or to avoid being told that his/her actions are rude, and I'm sure that's not what you want for your children.

[klpmommy]

I don't watch that show. However, I just looked up seitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_gluten_(food) and it looks gross. IMO (very uneducated) it seems like grandma may have picked the most disgusting vegetarian thing out there to "teach a lesson". why not something else more normal that is vegetarian? A cheese & veg lasagne? Soup? Pasta and vegs?

[bolt.]

I would expect one nibble to be polite (just enough to expereince the actual taste of what was being offered) -- But why would the girl be expected to like a random-and-new vegetarian meal, just because it was meatless? And why would the Grandpa be making table rules?

[Joanne]

What's your take on it? Was the mother giving the dd too much "power" by allowing her to choose vegetarian? Or are we just hearing the old guard and punitive parenting here in the voices of the grandparents?

A child can choose their eating style, including vegetarian. I'd protect the child from *having* to eat the lasagna.

At that point, I'd develop with 6 year old a list of easy alternatives that they have to accept should the main course not be meat-free. I'm not sure how Grandma's second dinner was decided.

A 6 year old can choose to be meat free, but will need help and coaching on how to make that work socially, in different settings and healthfully.

[Cherish]

I think the little girl is strong, bright, and knows what she wants. In previous episodes she does take after her lawyer mom with her negotiating skills (giving Jabar the part back in the play because her uncle crosby asked her to, but holding out for a trip to the movies with candy. That's normal/smart 6 yo thinking in my experience!)
I don't think the parents gave her too much power at all. Instead they tested her out to see if she was serious (she loves chicken, she forewent the chicken that she loves even after a nudge to eat it) and after that, they treated her like an equal human being who knows her own mind and didn't try to force her to violate her own conscience. I applaud them for that!
The grandparents are a hot mess. :) I didn't like the grandad's methods at all, and I think she must have tried the seitan to know she didn't like it? Or maybe it was the grossest looking and smelling thing ever, and I agree, maybe gramma did that to try to make the lasagne look appealing. It's EXACTLY what my mom would do... try to cross your boundary by seeming to go along with your choice and then make your choice as miserable for you as possible.
Edited to add:
Seitan LOOKS like meat, and is supposed to be a meat substitute. DUH no wonder the little girl didn't want to eat it, she probably felt like it was "really meat."

[teamommy]

I say this kindly, not to criticize you: Are you sure you think it is rude for a child to decline to try a few bites? Telling a child such a thing could cause her to eat for the wrong reasons, such as to be "polite" or to please other people or to avoid being told that his/her actions are rude, and I'm sure that's not what you want for your children.

Again, I didn't see the show, so maybe I should not have commented.

I don't know how it was done, but I was imagining a scenario where my family is eating in someone's home, and my child unexpectedly announces they are now a vegetarian (when the hostess was not informed ahead of time). The hostess then makes something else. In answer to your comment, in that instance, I do not think it is harmful to tell the child that, (unless it is something they know makes them sick from past experience), it is the polite thing to do to take a small amount of the food and take a bite or two.

A few occasions like that are not going to result in a person who eats to please other people. As I said I would have the conversation about it (in PRIVATE, at a later time), not force it, there would be no punishment or consequence for not doing so-- it would just be a conversation. :shrug2 (ETA: hmmm, thinking about it again, maybe I would not do this with a 6 year old, maybe more like 8-9, not sure).

It sounds like this episode was about power and the grandfather being authoritarian about food. That's not good. But what I was talking about is teaching of "social niceties", like how to behave when you are eating with someone with the expectation that they have cooked for you as their guest.

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Okay, I watched it. The gf was shaming and manipulative. ITA.

[TraceMama]

Thank you, everyone! :heart I appreciate the validation that the behavior I viscerally reacted to by the grandfather was indeed authoritarian, manipulative and shaming. Because that's what I grew up hearing and still hear when around certain family members, I sometimes question if I'm just over-reacting because I'm sensitive. :shrug

I assigned positive intent to the g-ma and just assumed that she was making something she thought her g-daughter would want to eat. :shrug3

So, if the Mom still firmly believes that the g-pa was wrong to strong-arm her dd into eating the food, how should she have handled the confrontation when g-pa and then g-ma tell her that she gives her dd too much power?

[ShiriChayim]

Disclaimer: I've never watched the show so I'm just reacting to what I've seen here.

I really think the concept of "power" in a parental relationship, either between adults or adult/child is really a red herring. If you are worried about who has the "power" then you've missed the point altogether.

Instead, I ask myself, who has the authority here? So going back through the scene, the place where I would say things go wrong are when grandpa walks in and chooses to downplay the decision of the 6yo to be vegetarian and her parents allow him that leeway. It sounds to me like grandpa has been given too much authority in this family's life.

See: power is all about what I can get you to do
Thus this grandfather's evidence of power was shown in his tactics not only with the granddaughter to get her to eat what he thought she should (which were pretty icky) but then ALSO later on in how he thinks his daughter (DIL?) should parent.

However, authority is all about what will I allow in our lives
Authority isn't manipulative because it doesn't rely on the other person doing anything to affirm your authority. So in this case, the child chosen to be vegetarian and the parents have the authority to allow the child to do this and support it. Grandpa comes in and the parents have the authority to protect their daughter from his manipulation.

In the case of the daughter's attitude authority says: I will support your choices, but I will not endure a poor attitude, you may eat something respectfully chosen or you don't have to eat at all, the choice is yours. And then of course you go from there. Honestly though, as a mother I have to say that NO ONE ELSE but my husband and I have the authority to come in my house and dictate how anything could or should go with my kids, I do not give that authority to others and anyone who tries to assume it will be quickly educated to their faulty logic ;)

[TraceMama]

Heather, I want to hit "thank you" a million times for that! :heart

[Nightingale]

great post, Heather!

I totally see why the interactions would bring up bad feelings :hug

One thing I noticed this morning when I watched was that when the little girl didn't want the lasagna the grandma took her off and said, "I'll fix you something else that your parents want me to fix you." And then the declaration later that grandpa tried to force her to eat meat (which wasn't true)...it really makes me think the writers didn't do a very good job with consistency about that part and that it probably was just a set up for the grandparents to get back together...if that makes sense.

Like I said, I still think grandpa was out of line and can see why the negative feelings :yes

[bolt.]

So, if the Mom still firmly believes that the g-pa was wrong to strong-arm her dd into eating the food, how should she have handled the confrontation when g-pa and then g-ma tell her that she gives her dd too much power?
"How much power I give my children is my choice to make. I found the way you spoke to her offensive, and it's a problem. If you want to continue to share meals with my family, I need to hear you say that you never intend to act like that again about food."

[Heather Micaela]

It is clear that Zeke (grandpa) is old-fashioned authoritarian. Julia (mom) is maybe a bit to permissive. I think that the best situation lies somewhere in the middle. If I were grandma and grandpa and thought that was a meal the child would LIKE, then I would have just let the child be hungry.

BUt that shaming makes the hairs stand up because my dad gets that way with my kids. My dad is actually way more permissive, but he for sure tries shame to control and I could see him pulling that exact move. And it makes me cringe, actually, to think my parents (who watch the show) saw that validated :no I hope it backfires :shifty

But TBH my parent have NEVER done the sit-at-the-table thing because of their own bad childhood memories of it.

[TraceMama]

It is clear that Zeke (grandpa) is old-fashioned authoritarian. Julia (mom) is maybe a bit to permissive. I think that the best situation lies somewhere in the middle. If I were grandma and grandpa and thought that was a meal the child would LIKE, then I would have just let the child be hungry.

BUt that shaming makes the hairs stand up because my dad gets that way with my kids. My dad is actually way more permissive, but he for sure tries shame to control and I could see him pulling that exact move. And it makes me cringe, actually, to think my parents (who watch the show) saw that validated :no I hope it backfires :shifty

But TBH my parent have NEVER done the sit-at-the-table thing because of their own bad childhood memories of it.

Exactly. :yes It makes me cringe to think that many family members who do that watched it and were validated. :-/

[L-Boogie]

I think both parties had some valid points :shrug g-pa undermining the mother's authority is inappropriate. Mom letting daughter be snooty and disrespectful is inappropriate. As pp said, hopefully it will get sorted out in future episodes, as this show tends to go. For instance, g-pa obviously has a history of being authoritarian, but he is making changes toward being more relational and empathetic.

As for people watching a feeling validated, that might happen, but honestly if this episode had gone differently, it probably wouldn't have changed their viewpoints. :shrug Especially those of the older generations who have preached authoritarian parenting for decades. IME people who believe those things will take validation wherever they can get it, usually from the most permissive examples.

I think it's hard for people to see more balanced parenting approaches because they are not so in your face as the child who is loud and rude and allowed to behave that way. Just my :twocents

[Lady Grey]

I finally watched this and have several thoughts.....

1. If my child had a food issue like this come up just days before the babysitting event and I knew Grandpa was a bit of a curmudgeon and set in his ways ;) I would provide dinner myself and set everyone up for success.

2. Yes, Sydney needs to be coached in how to politely say no to food - but Mom and Dad should have more clearly stated their expectations to both her and grandparents. "Sydney may choose not to eat meat. She must eat (provided protein item that Grandma doesn't have to cook) if she wants to have ice cream."

3. I'm not sure how the grandparents were so shocked at the dinner table scene, because Sydney is SUCH a mini-Julia.

[blessedwith3]

I have a vegan child and a food allergy child. I think as a Mom it's my job to make a provider aware and or depending on who it is provide acceptable food for my kiddos. Although this Mom is also new to vegetarianism so maybe it was just a learning situation for her too.