"My House, My Rules" MIL Issue

[bolt.]

I think my MIL was having a bad day when she made my girls and me a lovely meal for our usual Tuesday lunch, when I usually leave dd3 for her to care for until supper time, so that I can go to my Seminary classes.

But she does know, or at least she has known at some point, that we don't 'make' our children finish their food, nor require them to eat things that they would prefer not to.

But, apparently something is not quite clear. She said to my dd3, "You like broccoli, and you are going to eat it."

And I said, "Ummm, no, we allow her to leave food on her plate if she does not want it."

And she said, "My house, my rules."

So I said that I wouldn't be feeding my children where those rules were in effect, packed them up and left while she expressed her frustration at having a DIL who is entirely too rigid and makes a big fuss over everything. She was shaking and very deeply hurt.

She's a nice person, and I hate to have hurt her. Yes, she lost her temper, and many of us can be unkind in a situation like that... but, in her heart, I know her, and I know that she is a nice person.

So, I think I had to do that. I don't think I could have said anything else to, "My house, my rules." -- But what now?

Are there some peacemaking, relationship rebuilding, care-showing things that can be done from my end? (Without accepting blame or changing my values about kids eating?)

Is there anything I can do? Has anybody been around a mulberry bush of this sort with a MIL?

[WingsOfTheMorning]

I don't know, but :hugheart.

[Cherish]

"my child, my rules" is the only thing i could think of, but that goes nowhere towards peace and reconciliation.
:hug2 Hoping she will realize that she cares less about broccoli than she does being able to have her grandchild visit.

[Chaos Coordinator]

i am confused as to why she thinks you are too rigid despite the fact that she was spouting out cliches like "my house, my rules." :scratch bottom line you are the parent, you decide how to parent your children regardless of what your location is.

afa reconciliation, i dont know :shrug

[newday]

I am so impressed with your action :tu
That must have been really difficult to do :hug2

I suppose she didn't pick up on the irony of mentioning that you were too rigid while she was trying to force her granddaughter to eat what was on her plate :doh

No advice atm.
Just hugs. :hug2

[bolt.]

I suppose I'm rigid (and picky) about all the things I think are the best ways to treat children... that I have non-negotiables, and am not willing to let other people choose other (perfectly reasonable) options after I have made a decision.

What hurts me about being seen as too rigid/picky is how much leeway away from my true ideals that I already allow at the IL's house: I allow more TV than I would ordinarily tollerate, including shows I haven't pre-viewed... I allow her to make them wear bibs... I listen while she comments that kids beds should not be under windows -- even when there is no physical space in the room where at least part of the bed would not be under the window... I allow her to use the word 'stupid' and only remind her when she has said it 3-6 times in one conversation that I don't like my girls to hear that language from someone they respect...

I feel like I've been about as flexible as I can be, but I don't know why she thinks her house and her age mean that I should defer to her about my own children. It's just such a foreign perspective to me.

[forty-two]

Hmmmm :think. I grew up with the idea of "at Grandma's house we follow Grandma's rules, and at Mom's house we follow Mom's rules" - but it was all things like Grandma E doesn't allow people to unscrew sandwich cookies or she won't buy them anymore, and Grandma B doesn't allow people to stir their ice cream. It was more an acknowledgment that neither way was right or wrong, just different - when in Rome, and all that. But on the big things it was still our parents' rules - Mom determined what and how much I was supposed to eat, and ran interference as needed to prevent us from blatantly violating Grandma's preferences without changing the rules on us.

But we never visited grandparents by ourselves 'till I was 10 (b/c they were so far away, we always travelled with Mom and Dad until we were old enough to fly by ourselves), at which point we were capable of figuring out how to navigate any difficulties ourselves (there weren't many, Grandma wasn't thrilled about my pickiness, but accepted it).

ETA: And breaking Grandma's rules meant she felt unloved (Mom's mom, anyway), not that she'd enforce the rules over parental objections.

[bolt.]

I grew up with the idea of "at Grandma's house we follow Grandma's rules, and at Mom's house we follow Mom's rules" - but it was all things like Grandma E doesn't allow people to unscrew sandwich cookies or she won't buy them anymore, and Grandma B doesn't allow people to stir their ice cream.
Yeah, we do that -- Nana doesn't allow feet on couches or chairs, and the toys have to stay in the laundry basket, etc.

But I wasn't under the impression that respecting those "don't" rules made space for her to overrule me on feeding issues.

[Amber]

I think the best thing you could do is meet at a neutral location and have a really open discussion with her. Having your dh there and presenting a united front, having him laying down most of the rules would go a long way.

It is perfectly fine for her to say "my house, my rules" but she is picking a really silly thing to take that stand on. I would let her know that when her house rules conflict with what you believe is best for you family then the only way you can respect her rules is by leaving.

[Teribear]

They don't. Message Crystal and let her know about this thread...IIRC she's got a script about mitagating the rules of others.

[forty-two]

Yeah, we do that -- Nana doesn't allow feet on couches or chairs, and the toys have to stay in the laundry basket, etc.

But I wasn't under the impression that respecting those "don't" rules made space for her to overrule me on feeding issues.

Eating rules were important enough in my extended family that I can totally see it - I've no doubt there were some strained feelings b/w Mom's eating rules and Grandma's when we were little (but Mom stuck to her guns). I can't picture my MIL doing this, but if anyone in my family did, I'd not allow them to overrule me, but I don't think I'd rupture the relationship, either :shrug3. I wouldn't have left over it unless ordered out, though I'd not leave my dc alone w/ them b/c of it - I guess I'm too used to older people with set rules, it doesn't really offend me, even though I won't cave to it when it matters, either :shrug3.

ETA: The point being, my solution would be to run interference at mealtimes at grandma's, not putting things on your dc's plate unless you're pretty sure they'd eat them, only giving them little bits at a time - whatever helps minimize whatever Grandma's issues are while still maintaining your own boundaries.

[Kiara.I]

Are there some peacemaking, relationship rebuilding, care-showing things that can be done from my end? (Without accepting blame or changing my values about kids eating?)

Apologize for your part in the conflict (your 2% :giggle). You could have, for instance, taken the time right then to clarify your expectations for your children. If she still refused to budge, then take the kids. But taking them immediately after a two-sentence conversation is a little...er...abrupt. And probably the abruptness of it is what shocked her.

She probably thought there was wiggle room, and feels like she got completely crunched. So yeah, she's hurt.

So you can apologize for the abruptness of it, at least.

What Type is your MIL? Can you make sure you phrase things so that she can "hear" them? I know the issue seems very clear-cut to you, those are the rules, if she won't abide by them your kids won't be there. Sure. But you also know full well that not all personality types respond the same way.

[bolt.]

That's at least something peace-making that I can say, that's honest. I suppose I was abrupt... I just thought she meant what she said, and I couldn't think of anything else to do about it, so there didn't seem to be any benefit to taking my time and perhaps saying or hearing more hurtful things than were really nessisary.

To be honest, I must have moved really quickly -- I don't even remember standing up from the table and going to the place where the girls snowsuits were hanging. It seemed like I was just sitting and talking, then I was standing with the snowsuits in my hand.

[Kiara.I]

Type 4. :P~
Decision's made, show's over. :hug

[bolt.]

I don't know what 'type' she is... she (usually) avoids conflict, stores up hurt, lets herself be put-upon, and looks good in lavendar and pink.

[Cherish]

Praying you are able to get a good resolution for all this. :pray4

[bolt.]

OK I read up on the DYT types, and I'm pretty sure she's a 2... does that help us?

[Joyanne]

Wait til things cool down (like maybe until tomorrow morning) and then personally I'd call MIL and say to her that I was very sorry things had ended that way and I'd like to work it out. Tell her you are *usually* willing to do things her way at her home (it sounds like you are?? correct??), but there are things that you feel strongly about, like food issues that you can't change.

Then say "Would it help if I brought the food next time?" or "Would it be better if we talked about the menu ahead of time?" etc.

I'd say all this in a very concerned, "I'm trying to work this out b/c I love you" tone of voice. It sounds as though you usually have a good relationship(??) and maybe MIL just got frustrated or was having a bad day.

In Christ,
Joy

[newday]

That's at least something peace-making that I can say, that's honest. I suppose I was abrupt... I just thought she meant what she said, and I couldn't think of anything else to do about it, so there didn't seem to be any benefit to taking my time and perhaps saying or hearing more hurtful things than were really nessisary.

To be honest, I must have moved really quickly -- I don't even remember standing up from the table and going to the place where the girls snowsuits were hanging. It seemed like I was just sitting and talking, then I was standing with the snowsuits in my hand.

:giggle
I am trying not to laugh, because I know what a big deal that must have been.

Black and White much? :shifty

:hug :kiss

Yeah, she probably has no idea how you could get sooo upset about such a small thing, yadah yadah...
I agree with KiaraI :yes

[Kiara.I]

Type 2s gather details. Lots of them. They can actually get so bogged down in gathering details that they won't actually make the decision (that would be an unhealthy expression of a 2.)

Type 4s, on the other hand, are big picture thinkers. So, she issued the opening statement to some delicate negotiations that would be carried on in detail. And you assumed it was her final position and therefore non-negotiable.

Does that sound right?

---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

bolt, have you read The Peacemaker by Ken Sande? I know it's used as curriculum at some seminaries, so you might have run across it.

If not, it's a really, really good manual on Biblical conflict resolution. I highly recommend it. My DH and I have been facilitating small group studies for it for several years now. Conflict resolution is something that most Christians are really, really bad at--which is sad, because we're supposed to be able to even act as arbitrators for other members of the body. :(

[purple_kangaroo]

Type 2s gather details. Lots of them. They can actually get so bogged down in gathering details that they won't actually make the decision (that would be an unhealthy expression of a 2.)

Type 4s, on the other hand, are big picture thinkers. So, she issued the opening statement to some delicate negotiations that would be carried on in detail. And you assumed it was her final position and therefore non-negotiable.

Does that sound right?[COLOR="Silver"]



What are these types you speak of? This sounds like a dynamic my husband and I run into a lot, and I want to learn more!

[Kiara.I]

It refers to the DYT types (Dressing Your Truth). You can find lots of references to it in the Beauty and Fitness section, and also in the Uniquely You section. Hang on, I'll get you a link to the reference thread....

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showthread.php?t=378667
There's the main reference thread for the "what to wear" section of it.

Different types also do things like doodle differently, sit differently, walk differently, and, what I find most telling, we got criticized differently as children, and we throw "pity parties" differently. :) You know, sometimes it's easier to identify the *bad* traits than the good ones. :sigh

[EnglishRose]

I think by saying 'my house, my rules' your mil (maybe unintentionally) made the situation into a power struggle, which is, in my experience the main cause of difficulties in the mil / dil relationship.

I can see why you decided to leave because that showed her that actually you are in charge, you are their mother and she can not override you. Her terminollogy left you feeling like their was no other choice.

I would start by telling her that you love her and appreciate her but when she used the phrase 'my house my rules' it was a barrier for further conversation. Tell her what you've told us about how in many respects it is 'her house, her WAYS' but you are still the ultimate authority when it comes to decisions about how to raise the children.

It might be that she needs to know why you feel strongly about the food issue but really, to me, that's not the issue here.


(another thought - in her mind it might be it was meant to play out very differently 'she tells the kids they have to eat their brocolli, the kids eat it, you stand amazed because they don't usually do it for you... she is super gran in your eyes'. the other issues you mention make me think not but :shrug3)

:nak2

[cbmk4]

It might be that she needs to know why you feel strongly about the food issue but really, to me, that's not the issue here.


(another thought - in her mind it might be it was meant to play out very differently 'she tells the kids they have to eat their brocolli, the kids eat it, you stand amazed because they don't usually do it for you... she is super gran in your eyes'. the other issues you mention make me think not but :shrug3)

:nak2

I was thinking that unless Grandma sounded harsh or threatened punishment for not eating the broccoli, maybe it could have been not so big a deal. Maybe your dd would have been willing to try the broccoli and discovered she actually liked it. All this depends on how it came across. If your MIL sensed that in disagreeing with her judgement on food matters and children you were assessing her as inferior, that may have put her on the defensive.

I agree with letting a little time pass and then bringing up the incident during a neutral time. If you felt you were much too abrupt, then you could apologize for that while explaining why you feel it's important not to have battles over food with your children. I like the pp ideas of preemptively dishing up your dd's food next time or offering to provide the food if you all reach an impasse on the topic.

[ChristmasGirl]

They don't. Message Crystal and let her know about this thread...IIRC she's got a script about mitagating the rules of others.

yes! she had an excellent post about this years ago, and i am driving myself crazy trying to find it :doh

(((hugs)))

[canadiyank]

Many people are intensely frustrated by food waste. Perhaps you can start by addressing that issue - perhaps feeding the children before you come, or providing dinner food for them? I know that wouldn't "solve" it entirely, but at least it wouldn't be *her* food that was being "wasted." :think

[Karen]

I am not sure if your leaving was so abrupt because I seem to remember that you have had problems with your mil before. Since there is an ongoing pattern, I would have done the exact same thing. I agree withyou about not forcing or threatening to force children to eat food. It would be a non negotiable for me as well.

We were visiting and staying with my mil. She lives 7 hours away. She tried to force my dd to eat. When I told her that we did not force her to eat. She smiled and told me "My house, my rules". I said, "My children and we WILL leave immediately." Since she knew I didn't bluff, she backed down immediately. I don't get into power struggles over my children. They are my children and that is the end of it.

As far as reconciliation, I agree a neutral spot to talk it out. But I would still hold firm on those things that are important to me. People tend to think you are rigid when they are NOT getting their own way.

[NewCovenantMama]

People tend to think you are rigid when they are NOT getting their own way.
:yes

[Beth1231]

I think apologizing for the abruptness is a good start. Also putting in your sincere thoughts about enjoying your visits, knowing she is a good person who loves your kids etc is a good "buffer" for bringing up the sticky topic of "there are some things that I am willing to leave in your jurisdiction such as putting feet on the furnature and there are some things that I will decide on regarding the children such as how much and what they are required to eat." :hugheart I hope she receives you with grace and your relationship is quickly restored.

[Joanne]

And I said, "Ummm, no, we allow her to leave food on her plate if she does not want it."

And she said, "My house, my rules."

So I said that I wouldn't be feeding my children where those rules were in effect, packed them up and left while she expressed her frustration at having a DIL who is entirely too rigid and makes a big fuss over everything. She was shaking and very deeply hurt.




"Her body, her say" (in terms of rules and food).

I have to be honest; this IS a hill I'd plant on. In recent years (read: now that my kid are older and I've chilled a bit), I have calmed down about things. :) I'd rather foster g'parent relationships than get stuck on stuff that, in the long run, doesn't matter.

Telling a girl that she HAS TO EAT BROCOLLI is not okay, even in my chilled out paradigm.

That said, I *would* take a look at whether I make too big of a deal at "everything". :think Maybe, because I have been rigid and full of standards, I am losing credibility over things that I need to make matter.

So, I would approach MIL with the above paragraph in mind, while holding to the "your house your rules" does NOT extend to what a child is required to put in her body.

[CelticJourney]

Grandma has a say in how her belongings are handled - feet off sofa, dishes not banged, etc. But she is your daughter and NO ONE gets to decide what she must eat but you (if then). She drew the line, you acted accordingly. If you are ready to make peace, maybe you can tell her you have thought about it and perhaps you could have asked her if she had the same understanding of what she said that you did before you left.:shrug3 Honestly, I applaud your decisive actions.

Here is how it played out with me and fil: We are at their table for lunch after church on Sunday (rarity, but dh was off and it's all about seeing him, not us - another topic...). Dd1 was about 6 and she had eaten as much as normal and politely asked me 'may I be excused?' (not a requirement, but shes a smart cookie and decided to go full 'manners at grandparents' that day). Before I could answer, fil booms from the other end of the table 'you better get that fork busy!'. Luckily for me I was quick that day, acting like I never heard him I simply said 'yes, of course you may be excused' and whent back to my food. Dd made a bee line out of the room, dh held his breath waiting for the fireworks and my point was made. At that point it didn't matter to me if the child had eaten nothing - no one yells at my child to eat and she was excused.

[Sparrow]

It is perfectly fine for her to say "my house, my rules" but she is picking a really silly thing to take that stand on. I would let her know that when her house rules conflict with what you believe is best for you family then the only way you can respect her rules is by leaving.

This is really good. We sort of run into this at our IL's. Things like the couch thing I can understand. It is somebody's property. The broccoli thing is ridiculous. It is way too rigid.

Would telling her why you have your rules help?

What does your DH have to say?

[Tee]

I am not sure that I would have packed the kids up and left after your MIL said that. I would have been concerned over what type of modeling I am doing for my kids by leaving their grandma's house right away after she said that, especially if she was shaking and very deeply hurt as you were leaving. I might have tried to talk with MIL in a separate room about what exactly she meant by that, how offended that made me and that it was not ok to say that in front of the kids. If she is concerned about your child not eating all of their food at her house, she should be informed that that should be a separate conversation that mom and grandma should have together and alone. If that conversation went south fast, then we would gracefully leave.

[everybody's mother]

I am not sure that I would have packed the kids up and left after your MIL said that. .
This is exactly why I think you did the right thing. Children need to see boundaries modeled, and need to know they are being defended. At the point where your MIL said "my house, my rules" the only response is "good bye."
BTDT. Regularly. Now starting to have a good relationship w/my family.

[Ajani]

My mother said, "My house, my rules" to me once. And only once. It was with regards to spanking and I made it abundantly clear that she can think that if she likes, but the trump card is always, "My children, my rules." I had to remind her of that a few times when Little Mister was a baby and she tried doing things I didn't approve of. She didn't like it at all. And to this day I won't leave the kids with her at all. But that's a boundary I've had to enforce and accept as the natural consequence of her not respecting me as a parent.

I think you did the right thing, difficult as it may have been.

[Sparrow]

I think you did the right thing, difficult as it may have been.

I agree. Your MIL crossed a line that you drew for her.

Praying for healing :hug

[Karen]

This is exactly why I think you did the right thing. Children need to see boundaries modeled, and need to know they are being defended. At the point where your MIL said "my house, my rules" the only response is "good bye."
BTDT. Regularly. Now starting to have a good relationship w/my family.

Yup, I completely agree. Many of the problems people run into is because they have wishy washy boundaries and they are so afraid to rock the boat they allow people do appalling things to themselves and their children. Children need to have strong, firm boundaries modelled. It was not done impolitely or abusively. There was a line drawn and a decision, the correct when to me, was made

[rjy9343]

Many of the problems people run into is because they have wishy washy boundaries and they are so afraid to rock the boat they allow people do appalling things to themselves and their children.
Exactly. I don't know the dynamics between you and you MIL, but I do know that the reason people are able to outrageous things is because it shocks others and they are unsure of what to do next. I don't know if I would have left over the eating, but the my rules my house bit probably would have cut things short.

[Maggirayne]

I think my MIL was having a bad day when she made my girls and me a lovely meal for our usual Tuesday lunch, when I usually leave dd3 for her to care for until supper time, so that I can go to my Seminary classes.

But she does know, or at least she has known at some point, that we don't 'make' our children finish their food, nor require them to eat things that they would prefer not to.

But, apparently something is not quite clear. She said to my dd3, "You like broccoli, and you are going to eat it."

And I said, "Ummm, no, we allow her to leave food on her plate if she does not want it."

And she said, "My house, my rules."

So I said that I wouldn't be feeding my children where those rules were in effect, packed them up and left while she expressed her frustration at having a DIL who is entirely too rigid and makes a big fuss over everything. She was shaking and very deeply hurt.
Right here is where instead of further attacking you personally, she should have said, "You're the mom; it's up to you."

I think you did fine removing yourself until it could be discussed not in the heat of the moment.

[4MKfam]

I would have likely done exactly what you did. To be so bold as to put your child's eating broccoli out as a Hill to Die On by saying, "My house, my rules"...
Yeah. Homey don't play that :no.
Fine, your house, your rules. Then I choose not to be at your house. Bye.
She could have been more respectful of your knowledge of your daughter before she assumed your response to her was disrespectful.
JMHO. :shifty Sounds like a respect issue from my perspective. Sounds like you were both feeling disrespected (and, speaking as a fellow INTJ, few things get me steamed faster than feeling disrespected :mad).

[bolt.]

My husband spent some time with his mom (and dad) talking this out, and my MIL is not interested in sharing lunch with me, at least for the next while. He (my DH) says she still wants to watch dd3 for the afternoon, pick up dd6 from school, and have supper for them and him. (That's the usual Tuesday plan -- as it usually happens after lunch... just no lunch.

I'm not usually there for supper, it's my night for Seminary class. DH assures me that he will be attentive and pro-active in running interference during supper. I have confidence that he will, now that it's become such a big deal.

DH says MIL did not actually 'intend' to make dd3 eat it, she just wanted it to seem like she was serious about it, so that dd3 would comply and eat willingly. He says that MIL said that if dd3 had resisted, MIL would not have forced anything.

But that doesn't explain much to me.

(1) Since when is it OK to make out that it's not optional, if it really is? It doesn't seem fair, after all the work I put into teaching dd's to actually respond to what is not optional (firm commands) without making trouble... then she uses that training to... what? trick them?

(2) She didn't say to DH that she had said, "My house, my rules." -- Only that she tried to make dd3 eat broccoli, without any actual intent to make her do it. Does that sound like back-pedaling to anyone else?

(3) If she didn't actually mean it, why didn't she agree with me when I re-stated the actual rule? Why did she escalate the situation by sticking to a statement that she supposedly didn't mean, when she could have just said, "No, I didn't mean that."?

Also in the conversation my DH reports that she is often bothered by me being 'harsh' with the girls, and condescending towards her. She seems to feel the whole incident is my fault, because of all the flaws in my personalitiy that she seems to find abrasive even under normal circumstances. She just doesn't think I'm a good person or a good mother, and she has all these ideas about how I should treat my elders, especially her... which I am constantly messing up on (in her opinion).

She remembers every mistake (that I've learned from) and every flaw (that I'm growing out of)... it just seems like she holds me responsible for an eternity for the (completely obvious) fact that I'm not entirely perfect as a person or up to her standards of how family members should behave.

I find it hard to be in a loving relationship with someone who holds that opinion of me. I know I'm not perfect... and I am growing out of some degree of harshness with the girls... but what is it that makes her take my mistakes so personally? Or is it me taking this personally? She mis-reads all my actions as if they are just showing what a terrible person I am inside.

So, I'm just not sure I'm interested in all the sacrifices having a supposedly 'friendly' relationship with my MIL seems like it's going to take. I don't think she's ever going to get past her mis-perceptions of me, and I can't see the point in pretending to be friendly if she thinks she's dealing with such a person as she has imagined.

I do care about her... and of course I can treat her with kindness... I'm just thinking in terms of relationship building actions that I might take (or not take).

Part of me wants her to ask me to bring dd3 and allow her to pick up dd6 on Tuesday. I now consider it a favour to her, and a concesion to my husband's values. DH has asked me to do it, so I think I will whether or not MIL asks... but I wish she would. I also wish, since she knows she firmly told me a rule she did not mean, that she would take the initiative to correct herself and clarify for me the eating rules she actually 'intends' to have.

So is that me being a little 'small' about it? Would it be 'bigger' to call, and apologize about the abruptness, and then hope she takes up the conversation?

Can I ask her directly for those things? "Is this Tuesday arrangement something you like and genuinely want to continue with?" --- "Could you clarify the rules about eating that you intend to abide by at your table?" -- Or does that make me condescending, pompus and arrogant in her perception?

Any thoughts?

[Sparrow]

So is that me being a little 'small' about it? Would it be 'bigger' to call, and apologize about the abruptness, and then hope she takes up the conversation?

Can I ask her directly for those things? "Is this Tuesday arrangement something you like and genuinely want to continue with?" --- "Could you clarify the rules about eating that you intend to abide by at your table?" -- Or does that make me condescending, pompus and arrogant in her perception?

Any thoughts?

I don't think you are being small about it. You set a boundary, she crossed it. Yes, it would be bigger to call. If it were me, I'd call. That may be a flaw of mine though :-/ I'm sort of a peace at all costs kind of person.

I also think you can ask her directly. The incident happened between the two of you. Could you take her out for a coffee or tea, to discuss on neutral ground? I personally wouldn't ask her about her rules. Just let her know your rules surrounding food, why you have them. Let her know why you feel it is useless to try to force something that you don't intend to hold up to.

:hug

I think it is awesome that you had the strength to do what you did. I don't think I'd be able.

[forty-two]

Why did she escalate the situation by sticking to a statement that she supposedly didn't mean, when she could have just said, "No, I didn't mean that."?
Does she buy into the idea of never backing down - that once you've made a stand, it comes across as weakness to back down from it, you have to stand by it even if you realize you were wrong?

Also, maybe she doesn't back down from confrontation well :think. The number of stupid fights my mom and I had that stemmed from neither of us being willing to back down...:doh. Once we calmed down we were able to acknowledge the stupidity and discuss it like reasonable people.

Can I ask her directly for those things? "Is this Tuesday arrangement something you like and genuinely want to continue with?" --- "Could you clarify the rules about eating that you intend to abide by at your table?" -- Or does that make me condescending, pompus and arrogant in her perception?

I think they are perfectly reasonable questions to ask :yes. But given the dynamic you described, I bet she'll take it as arrogant, pompous, and condescending :sigh. Does your dh have any insight into the best ways to approach things? Sometimes tone of voice and wording make all the difference in the world.

[Karen]

If I may gently point out, I think you may have an erroneous view of this situation. You have consistently pointed out how nice your mil and have continued to take ongoing responsibility for your...mistakes in the past. Well, I am having a sneaking suspscion she is not as nice as you are trying to believe. I also think that maybe you have paid enough for past mistakes and it is time to be forgiven and move on.

I don't think you have to have a friendly relationship with your mil. From pasts posts I am not getting the feeling it is a meeting of the minds more you need to make changes to get along with her. I think being civil is perfectly acceptable.

I am not sure if I would be dropping off my children with a person who very obviously doesn't like me and seems to find ways to point out that I am not good enough. Actaully, truth be told I absolutely wouldn't do it but I am stubborn and a bit rigid like that.

I really think this relational problem is far more her issue than yours.

[Kiara.I]

Okay. :hug

You are expecting her to respond and behave in a way that is consistent with emotional health and good communication skills. :shrug Most people don't have those. Really.

There are a few ways you could choose to have this go.
1) You were *right.* Yes. Absolutely. You can stick to that, hard line, with firm boundaries, and the relationship will probably disintegrate. That *may* be necessary, but probably not.
2) You could do whatever she wants. Obviously not a good choice. :giggle
3) You could accept that she is *not* skilled at communicating and probably does NOT assess every word she says (can I note she is probably not an NT?) and is just not going to react in an emotionally mature and rational way. Then, you (as having the better communication skills) could choose to do the hard work of leading the repair process of relationship, while still protecting your girls and enforcing your boundaries. On the plus side, this would give your girls a great model of what real-life relationships often look like.


(1) Since when is it OK to make out that it's not optional, if it really is? It doesn't seem fair, after all the work I put into teaching dd's to actually respond to what is not optional (firm commands) without making trouble... then she uses that training to... what? trick them?

It's not. Stop expecting her to communicate in a healthy NT way**. She's not an NT, and she does not have good communication skills. And it's important here to assign positive intent. She has NO IDEA the work you've put in, the ideals you have, or how her words have/will jeopardize that. Most people just *don't think about what they say.* Ignorance, not malice. Okay?

*** I'm not saying only NT's communicate in healthy ways, please understand that. I'm saying she doesn't communicate in healthy ways, AND she doesn't communicate in NT ways. Okay? Lest I offend all my NF, SJ and SP sisters.... :hug

(2) She didn't say to DH that she had said, "My house, my rules." -- Only that she tried to make dd3 eat broccoli, without any actual intent to make her do it. Does that sound like back-pedaling to anyone else?

Yeah. Not healthy, remember? Let it go. She's not an NT, and she has never learned healthy patterns of interaction. You've studied it. She hasn't. Ignorance and fear, not malice.

(3) If she didn't actually mean it, why didn't she agree with me when I re-stated the actual rule? Why did she escalate the situation by sticking to a statement that she supposedly didn't mean, when she could have just said, "No, I didn't mean that."?

Because she couldn't. Again, not healthy, remember? Most of us are not in the least skilled at accepting our part in the conflict, repenting, making amends, and restoring relationship. We're scared to. We're invested in being right because if we're wrong then all kinds of shame is attached to that. Consequently, we get more and more entrenched in our positions and would prefer to sever relationship rather than admit fault and work toward restoring it.

If you want to work on this, you (as the healthy, skilled-in-communication person) will have to do the work of figuring out what her position is (stated) what her interests are (not stated) and whether you can negotiate between the two of you. :shrug Also whether her position is actually her final position or whether one of the communication styles that she has learned is a bargaining style, where you start with a position you don't intend to wind up in, but will barter from there toward a middle ground. Will it help you to realize that she was starting out a bartering session? You said "10 bucks" and she said "100 bucks" and you decided the price wasn't worth it. But actually she would have been willing to accept $40, (or maybe even your 10, if you were careful) but you'd already left, and she was stunned, having never actually been counting on the 100. You see?

Also in the conversation my DH reports that she is often bothered by me being 'harsh' with the girls, and condescending towards her. She seems to feel the whole incident is my fault, because of all the flaws in my personalitiy that she seems to find abrasive even under normal circumstances. She just doesn't think I'm a good person or a good mother, and she has all these ideas about how I should treat my elders, especially her... which I am constantly messing up on (in her opinion).

Okay. You're a Type 4. You're an INTJ. You are *going* to be viewed as harsh by a lot of people unless they are very secure, or you are working *extremely* hard at being soft. :shrug It's the way it is. And, she's not secure. We've established that. She's also a really different personality type, I think. If you learned her MB type would it help you interact? Or do you know it already?

I'm sorry she's casting old stuff up at you. She obviously does not have a heart-deep understanding of grace and forgiveness. It may be your job to bring that up to her at some point, but only after you've forgiven, and only if God gives you the job of walking through it with her. :shrug


I find it hard to be in a loving relationship with someone who holds that opinion of me. I know I'm not perfect... and I am growing out of some degree of harshness with the girls... but what is it that makes her take my mistakes so personally? Or is it me taking this personally? She mis-reads all my actions as if they are just showing what a terrible person I am inside.

It is hard. Absolutely, it's hard. What makes her take it personally? Who knows. Maybe somehow it's triggering something in her past that isn't healed. :shrug

I can't see the point in pretending to be friendly if she thinks she's dealing with such a person as she has imagined.

Right, so pretending to be friendly isn't really a loving relationship. The only way you can really have a loving relationship is to actually *love* her. And only God can help you with that one at the moment. ;) But God does grant love for the "unloveable"--it's kind of his specialty.

Part of me wants her to ask me to bring dd3 and allow her to pick up dd6 on Tuesday. I now consider it a favour to her, and a concesion to my husband's values. DH has asked me to do it, so I think I will whether or not MIL asks... but I wish she would. I also wish, since she knows she firmly told me a rule she did not mean, that she would take the initiative to correct herself and clarify for me the eating rules she actually 'intends' to have.

Both of you are now waiting for the other to admit to being wrong. Chances are good that she won't (see above about about health, communication, etc.) I know you want her to--but expecting it probably isn't worthwhile.

So is that me being a little 'small' about it? Would it be 'bigger' to call, and apologize about the abruptness, and then hope she takes up the conversation?

Yes. :hug Prepare ahead of time. And actually, best to meet face-to-face, easier to read body language. Apologize for your part. This *might* prompt an apology from her for her part. It often does, especially as your apology is complete and humble, the Holy Spirit can use that to soften hearts. If it doesn't, then after she's accepted your apology you could work on the "gently restore" part of the equation by addressing her part in it, extending grace the whole time. It's a tough process. Are you familiar with the components of a really thorough apology? Here's an overview: Seven As of Confession (http://www.peacemaker.net/site/c.aqKFLTOBIpH/b.958153/k.7417/Seven_As_of_Confession.htm)

Can I ask her directly for those things? "Is this Tuesday arrangement something you like and genuinely want to continue with?" --- "Could you clarify the rules about eating that you intend to abide by at your table?" -- Or does that make me condescending, pompus and arrogant in her perception?

You can. :yes But you will need to phrase it and rephrase it in your head until it sounds way softer than you can even imagine right now. Blunt and direct works great for both Type 4 and INTJ. It does NOT work well for unhealthy expressions of many other types. :hug But you knew that. ;)

You would probably need to start by expressing how much it means to you and your girls and how you'd love to see it continue. Then move on to asking her if she would be *willing* to continue, and if so how she thinks it could be made to work. Then, once you've got her ideas of those points, negotiate around them (carefully! gently!) until you've actually got it exactly how it needs to happen, but you got there without being blunt about it. :hugheart

[CelticJourney]

she just wanted it to seem like she was serious about it, so that dd3 would comply and eat willingly. He says that MIL said that if dd3 had resisted, MIL would not have forced anythingHere seems to be the problem to me: you can't 'comply' 'willingly' - you can 'comply' but if you are willing... If she ate something she didn't want to eat just to comply, she was learning a lesson you didn't want taught in the first place. Your mil does not communicate honestly.

How do you feel about the 'we want the son and his kids, but the wife, not so much?' Can you live with that comfortably?

If she is bringing up the past and pointing out your faults, she is not deflecting and not dealing with what happened NOW.

[bolt.]

That was really helpful Kiara... really, really helpful.

I just have one problem.


I JUST DON'T WANNNA BE THE BIGGER PERSON!!! :hissyfit


I want to just let it go, and write her off, and let her rot in the mess she's making. I don't want to tip-toe and dance, and wheedle, and then walk on eggshells for decades, all the while being sure that inside she thinks I'm a witch with a capital "B"... that she has to be nice to.

DH has already told her the food rules, goten her to claim that was what she always 'intended' to stick to (after she finshed her tricky intimidation tactic), agreed to oversee and enforce the boundaries in future, and secured that she is "willing" to continue to do the great big favour of caring for a grandchild for an afternoon.

It's me that feels unwilling to make-like her view of the situation and her view of me is OK. And continuing to do Tuesdays almost as usual seems to imply that. I want to hear her say, "I said something I didn't mean." and, "I spend this time with the girls because I want to, and I'm happy you make it happen for me."

... I guess I can just give up on that happy dreamland, eh?

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

How do you feel about the 'we want the son and his kids, but the wife, not so much?' Can you live with that comfortably?
Probably... as long as we can get along on a surface level on occasions etc.

Did I mention that my FIL has never in his life forgiven anyone who made his wife cry? How can such silly things get so out of hand?

[Kiara.I]

:there
Yeah, me too. Just because I know the theory doesn't mean I wanna do the application. :hug

As to doing the tip-toe/wheedle/walk on eggshells thing...well...that should NOT go on for decades. :no If it needs to be done often, then *that* is an issue that will probably become your job to bring up with her. It's an area in her life that needs restoration. :shrug But it's not your job unless you are doing it out of actual love and restoration. You know. :hug

[canadiyank]

Can I ask her directly for those things? "Is this Tuesday arrangement something you like and genuinely want to continue with?" --- "Could you clarify the rules about eating that you intend to abide by at your table?" -- Or does that make me condescending, pompus and arrogant in her perception?


I would feel...defensive...if these were asked of me. :think And I think I'd need a few weeks "off" before facing you again if something like this happened.

[bolt.]

That's a good perspective, Meghan, thanks for sharing it... on a practical level, while we were taking a few weeks off, what could be done about Tuesdays? Are they automatically cancelled, because I've taken her word about how she intends to feed my children? Or is everything normal, because we're pretending nothing happened? What does a 'break' look like in a relationship with a regularly scheduled child-watching plan?

[rjy9343]

:hugheart You know what? It is okay not to want to be the bigger person. You felt attacked and backed into a corner. Then from your perspective (and mine,too) you MIL is given a pass for her actions and a license to continue as if nothing happened and it is all your fault. Of course you want her say something, not just to soothe your wounded pride, but because you were hurt, too. You that want to be acknowledged. (At least that is what I am reading from your posts).
To be honest from your posts it looks like MIL has always been a victim and has manipulated for many years to get where she is and she is not going to change for you. :snooty Her family has enabled this and they are not going to change the dynamic to accommodate you either. Also from your posts I gather you are pretty direct and to the point. You say what you mean and mean what you say and are thrown off and not really sure what to do when someone plays games. (I really like that about you and enjoy your posts because of that).
Sorry, I don't have any great advice, I am struggling with my own MIL and feel stuck at the moment,too. I just live in another state and don't have to deal with it right now, but I know that will change.

[Maggirayne]

I can understand why you are angry and hurting--she hasn't owned her actions and words. :-/

I'm dealing with that with my mom. She sent me a very nice-sounding letter, but it bothered me, and I couldn't put my finger on it and let my counselor read it, and that's what she identified what my mom wasn't saying.

I currently have a similar situation with my MIL that I feel inadequate to address and so we've just avoided them. :hug

[J3K]

jumping in four pages after only reading the op...not exactly the smartest move...but here goes...

And she said, "My house, my rules."

My kids , my rules trumps your house and rules.

I only say this because I've been there. It finally occurred to me the subtle way others were trying to usurp MY authority over MY children. If I didn't want them to watch a certain movie , eat a certain food , play certain games...it was MY call. Not theirs. I got sick of having my hands tied with "my house , my rules" and one day just LOST it. I barked that the kids were MINE , not theirs , they made their mistakes and now it was my turn so BACK OFF.

And have been taken seriously ever since.

[canadiyank]

That's a good perspective, Meghan, thanks for sharing it... on a practical level, while we were taking a few weeks off, what could be done about Tuesdays? Are they automatically cancelled, because I've taken her word about how she intends to feed my children? Or is everything normal, because we're pretending nothing happened? What does a 'break' look like in a relationship with a regularly scheduled child-watching plan?

I'm not sure. :think Recently I knew I hurt a friend through my words and I gave her some space...I could tell she was avoiding me, too. So finally when the standing date we have with each other came up and she cancelled, I let it go, and then the next week contacted her. It went fine.

I tend to "hibernate" when I'm upset, so I'd probably avoid and pretend things were fine for a bit until I was ready to talk about it. I'm *not* good in the moment and tend to say things I regret, but I do eventually work them out with people. :think

[NewLeaf]

this might be disjointed, typed in small increments between child care...


this may be way off but i think i would start with disregarding and pretty much ignoring anything she said to your dh AFA having any weight in your decision making. :shrug

the issue/situation was between you and her. to me, anything she is saying to him is irrelevant in finding a solution and most likely triangulating. from where i'm sitting it looks like manipulation. her actions aren't helpful towards resolving the situation.

i wouldn't be okay with dh and the kids carrying on without me as though this hadn't happened. hopefully, neither is your dh?

i'd want to talk to her myself and leave out anything dh said. i wouldn't apologize for anything either.

like maggierayne said, she isn't owning her actions and that's easy to do if she gets to tell some version of the story to your dh and attempt to enlist his sympathies. it's divisive and disrespectful to you.

i'd want to talk to her about what happened, the pps gave good ideas on what to say/what not to but i'd also address the fact that if something happens between the two of you then the solution is between the two of you. see where it goes from there?

[bolt.]

At Church today I said good morning. She walked away. I guess she's still too upset to want to have any kind of conversation if she's not interested in replying to a good morning.

It's really sad to me that she's so hurt, especially since we have to do Church together (or at least nearby to each other), and it's probably hard for her to deal with it. But I can be patient... but I'm not sure it's about me waiting for her to calm down. She probably has an idea of what I should do, and maybe she'll get even more upset the longer I don't do it.

What she wants is probably me to call and apologize... but I don't think apologizing for being abrupt is going to cut it. It's going to be dead obvious if I only apologize for being abrupt, that I'm not actually taking responsibility. I can see that conversation becoming an even bigger argument.

Is it OK if I just let her and my dh decide what they want to do about the girls visiting, and I just do whatever transportation my dh asks me to (simply out of respect for him)? That would totally satisfy me -- at least for now.

Or is that my petty side again? Am I fooling myself because I want to believe that I'm not responsible for this situation, and that I can take or leave my relationship with her? It can't be terribly Christlike of me to be indifferent instead of loving and submissive towards her. (Am I trying to extend her feeling bad on purpose?)

Meh! Good theology makes relationships so... I just don't know. It's frustrating to feel called to higher standards than the standards you can hold other people to.

[CelticJourney]

...Is it OK if I just let her and my dh decide what they want to do about the girls visiting, and I just do whatever transportation my dh asks me to (simply out of respect for him)? That would totally satisfy me -- at least for now.

Or is that my petty side again? Am I fooling myself because I want to believe that I'm not responsible for this situation, and that I can take or leave my relationship with her? It can't be terribly Christlike of me to be indifferent instead of loving and submissive towards her. (Am I trying to extend her feeling bad on purpose?)

Meh! Good theology makes relationships so... I just don't know. It's frustrating to feel called to higher standards than the standards you can hold other people to.

I think letting dh deal with is mother is a great plan. You are willing to take responsibility for your part, but she is not. I think the fact that you are not trying to keep your dh or your children away from her is actually a very loving and open response - you are not cutting her out, you are giving both of you space to deal with new boundries. :shrug3

[Kiara.I]

It is sad. I'm sorry it's not going to be an easy process for you.

Have you been praying for her? That can help a lot.

But I can be patient... but I'm not sure it's about me waiting for her to calm down. She probably has an idea of what I should do, and maybe she'll get even more upset the longer I don't do it.
:yes2 That's a real concern. I know I get stuck in phases where the other person NEEDS to do x,y,z and they don't, therefore they're actually *trying* to hurt me worse....and most of the time they had no idea there was something wrong in the first place. :doh

But she may well be feeling that way, and getting more upset with you. :sigh


What she wants is probably me to call and apologize... but I don't think apologizing for being abrupt is going to cut it. It's going to be dead obvious if I only apologize for being abrupt, that I'm not actually taking responsibility. I can see that conversation becoming an even bigger argument.

Hang on. It can only become an argument if you let it. So you need to prepare what you will say as apology, and how you can respond if she says something like x,y,z. Or instead if she says a,b,c. You can't prepare for everything, of course, but you can do a good deal.

Now, if you are truly sorry that your abruptness hurt her, then that will probably come through, and may not prompt an angry response, because it will be focused on how your actions hurt her--which is what she's really upset about.

Is it OK if I just let her and my dh decide what they want to do about the girls visiting, and I just do whatever transportation my dh asks me to (simply out of respect for him)? That would totally satisfy me -- at least for now.
:no :hug2 It might be an interim measure while you pray and prepare, but it should be a short interim.


Or is that my petty side again? Am I fooling myself because I want to believe that I'm not responsible for this situation, and that I can take or leave my relationship with her? It can't be terribly Christlike of me to be indifferent instead of loving and submissive towards her. (Am I trying to extend her feeling bad on purpose?)

Meh! Good theology makes relationships so... I just don't know. It's frustrating to feel called to higher standards than the standards you can hold other people to.

Yeah, it's tough. Being called to be like Christ just isn't easy. :no I like the quote: “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried” – G. K. Chesterton

Now about standards you can hold other people to...do you feel that you need to address her behaviour with her? You could choose to overlook, or you may need to bring it up.

Generally, the framework for conflict resolution is:
1) Glorify god. 1 Cor 10:31--So it applies even to conflict. How can you please and honour God in this situation?
2) Get the log out of your own eye--confess your own part in the situation - the bigger the hurt you caused the more thorough the confession needs to be. If you're looking at that 7 As of Confession think I linked, that can help with some points to put in there.
3) Gently restore--address her part in the situation. You might choose to overlook this, depending. There are criteria for determining that, such as can you move past it or does it continue to upset you after a few days. Does it affect others. Things like that.
4) Go and be reconciled. Reconciliation should be that it doesn't hinder your personal relationship. Naturally there might still be consequences, like the embezzling treasurer does not get restored to her position as treasurer, but you should be able to genuinely care about her. In this case you *might* choose not to have your daughters there for meals, if she can't/won't accept the food rules. That kind of thing. But you should be able to lovingly accept her in their lives as their grandma and your MIL. (There might be situations where that wouldn't be appropriate, but this doesn't seem like a situation where she's truly toxic or anything, so it ought to be okay.)

[Cherish]

Also in the conversation my DH reports that she is often bothered by me being 'harsh' with the girls, and condescending towards her. She seems to feel the whole incident is my fault, because of all the flaws in my personalitiy that she seems to find abrasive even under normal circumstances. She just doesn't think I'm a good person or a good mother, and she has all these ideas about how I should treat my elders, especially her... which I am constantly messing up on (in her opinion).
I had to come back to this thread because something was bothering me...
I finally figured out what it is. So she tells your husband all this negative stuff about you and HE is still fine with the idea of having dinner over there with the kids knowing that she wants to EXCLUDE YOU and thinks all this junk about you?
Why? I don't understand this. My husband would tell his mother (or anyone) to take a long walk off a short pier if someone spoke me this way. That old lady sounds like a manipulative diva who wants her baby boy back at home with mama minus the annoying baggage of a daughter-in-law. There's always room for reconciliation and moving forward, but not if one party thinks the other party is the devil incarnate, you know? :)

[bolt.]

I suppose it's because we don't mind knowing when other people have opinions of us that aren't flattering. I don't really expect to be universally popular, and my marriage to her son doesn't automatically make me the kind of person my MIL finds attractive.

I'm not sure why he would need his mom to change her honest opinion about me. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and -- while it's more polite to leave things unspoken -- I'm not surprised at her honesty under duress. And, quite simply put, I really am often percieved as somewhat arrogant and hard-hearted. My MIL is not a saint or angel to be immune from noticing the places in which my personality (or perhaps only my social skills) have known flaws.

There are negative things about me, and I make only some small efforts to meet her (unreasonable) expectations. I didn't expect her not to notice.

Being dishonest about one's feelings is not an expectation in my family, and nobody is going to be shut down or shunned simply for saying unflattering things out loud in a highly emotional moment. Just because she doesn't think I'm great, and that I don't measure up to her wishful standards doesn't mean she thinks I'm the devil incarnate!

And I don't think she wants to exclude me, she just doesn't want to do me any favours just now, and I think she expects me to make the first move (as far as accepting responsibility).

I don't agree with your assessment of her. Trust me, I can say some unflattering things about her if I wanted to -- but it's not in the vein of being a diva who wants her son back. (It's more in the vein of being too wounded and broken to understand that she is responsible for her own life, and that others don't owe her happiness.)

[Cherish]

I'm glad that the way i perceived it isn't the case. I wasn't trying to be mean, it just "seemed" like she was trying to have what she wanted and exclude you.

[canadiyank]

Just wondering how this situation was going?

[bolt.]

I've been meaning to write an update... the short version is that is is going well. Better than I thought it would.

She's been doing childcare on Tuesdays, but without any lunch, and my husband is with them for supper, so there has been no more food pressure (I've been assured).

When we see each other on Tues & Suns (we go to the same small Church), at first she seemed upset to the point of not being able to reply to a simple good morning, but she re-gained the ability to be warm-with-distance in an ordinary conversation on the 3rd Sunday (and we missed the 2nd one).

So I said, "You seem to be a bit more OK with us now, so do you want to have a conversation about our little problem?" And her reply really surprised me. She said that 'maybe sometime' we could have a conversation, but that she had been spending time with a elderly man from our Church, who has been in the hospital, and his children are full of conflict and not-speaking-to-each-other. She said something like she 'just doesn't want to do it that way'. And I affirmed that I thought we could disagree and still manage to be kind to each other, and she agreed briefly, and seemed to be covering some emotionality.

The Tuesday after that when I was dropping off M, she asked if I would come in for a minute, and inside asked me please to pray for the elderly man, who was in surgery at the time. So we sat and prayed, had a few smiles and knee-squeezes and I went on my way.

So, yeah, surprisingly well.

She's not exactly great at handling relationship tension, but she's not a lost cause, and our relationship is not totally broken.

[canadiyank]

:heart

[EnglishRose]

I'm so glad it's going a bit better.
:pray4

[NewLeaf]

What an encouraging update. :tu

[holmama]

I am glad for you! As someone who has some issues with some relatives, including inlaws, this gives me hope that stuff can be addressed without the world coming to an end.....