Reasonable meal time limits for a 3 yo?

[PDX Mommy]

Well, an almost-3 yo. E is a very picky eater and pretty much has been since he started self-feeding (around 12 mo). We are really struggling with is pickiness lately--especially at dinner. He eats his other meals and snacks fine because they're pretty much all catered to him. But, dinner is whatever I make for the whole family. I do cater to Evan's dairy allergy, and I try to make sure there is at least one thing he'll eat. But, he often refuses to eat the majority of what's on his plate.

Immediately following dinner, the boys go upstairs and take a bath. Evan is usually in bed by 8 pm, so about an hour and a half MAX after dinner. He pretty much always asks for a snack. If he made a good enough effort to eat dinner, then I will give him a snack. If not, I offer him the chance to finish dinner first (which he pretty much never does). If he does finish, then I will give him a snack (usually something like animal crackers). If he doesn't finish, then he goes to bed without a snack. Are these appropriate limits for an almost-3 yo? He is eating enough throughout the day with frequent access to snacks. Do you have any other ideas? I really don't want to make mealtimes a battle but I'm also not comfortable with him choosing not to eat because he knows he'll get a snack anyway.

[Calee]

I, personally, still offer my almost three year old a snack, but it is not an open field day on what snack, if he hasn't eaten dinner (he's picky too). I give him two or three choices, and they are all fruit/veggie/dairy. If he chooses none of that, either, than I assume he's not hungry, or would just *rather* have a "fun" snack (crackers or a treat). I don't let him have that kind of snack if he hasn't eaten dinner.

I know picky toddlers are hard!!!

[Starfox]

My DS is picky too. He had to *try* a bite at supper, and then he gets a snack later if he did. My latest strategy is to remind him that he *used* to like this food (that's so frustrating when they used to eat it and then stopped!!!) and also that Mommy and Daddy like eating yummy food, so Mommy only makes yummy food. :giggle I tell him it's ok if he doesn't like it though; that we all have different tastes. Lately (:phew) he's actually been trying and liking things!

He threw a huge fit over something the other night, and then right in the middle he stopped, said "I just need to *try* it! It might be yummy!", tried it, and *loved* it and gobbled it all up! Silly kid! It was like someone flipped a switch.

I don't battle with him, but I do just want him to try. The big breakthrough was when he tried an orange and loved it after rejecting oranges his whole life. :giggle Now I can say to him that he tried the orange and liked it, this might be the same too!

[DancingWithElves]

I'm also not comfortable with him choosing not to eat because he knows he'll get a snack anyway

tell me more about that :)

a child under 5 or so does not act with a goal in mind... well, it's not that simple, but in this instance, he isn't going: "hmmm, this green stuff looks suspicious, but ya know, i'll skip it and see if i can get an apple for a snack later" :no

it's more of:
"yuck, green suspicious stuff"
...
...
"oh, need snack"
...
...
"oh, apple, need that apple, mama"

kwim?

i say that at that age many children are still grazers :) let him graze. introduce that dinner table as a developmental and nurturing process, not means to an end. research shows that grazers consume more food (but not too much) than kids made to eat only during mealtimes and only at the table (research was done to see if grazers indeed get enough, of if they are starving as their mothers are afraid b/c they "never eat" :giggle )

if you feel he blew off dinner, you already do offer him a chance to have another stab at it for snack, that is wise, and is more than enough :yes

[Turtle Herder]

There's another thread going right now about this very thing...

brb with the link...

Here it is: http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showthread.php?t=392354

I found it very helpful and enlightening on the topic :hug2

[PDX Mommy]

tell me more about that :)

a child under 5 or so does not act with a goal in mind... well, it's not that simple, but in this instance, he isn't going: "hmmm, this green stuff looks suspicious, but ya know, i'll skip it and see if i can get an apple for a snack later" :no

it's more of:
"yuck, green suspicious stuff"
...
...
"oh, need snack"
...
...
"oh, apple, need that apple, mama"

kwim?

i say that at that age many children are still grazers :) let him graze. introduce that dinner table as a developmental and nurturing process, not means to an end. research shows that grazers consume more food (but not too much) than kids made to eat only during mealtimes and only at the table (research was done to see if grazers indeed get enough, of if they are starving as their mothers are afraid b/c they "never eat" :giggle )

if you feel he blew off dinner, you already do offer him a chance to have another stab at it for snack, that is wise, and is more than enough :yes

Well, like tonight. I made mini-meatloaves with a mix of veggies. E didn't want to come to the table (not abnormal; we usually let him come when he's ready--about 5 minutes or so after we sit down). Then, he got to the table, looked at his food, and said "I don't want that". I told him that he didn't have to like it, but that's what's for dinner and that it's really yummy. I pointed out how even J was gobbling it up, too. (He's usually amused by J; I didn't make it about competition.) I offered to let him sit in my lap while I ate. I got him to eat three small pieces of sliced potatoes. Then he got down and finished watching his movie while J took a bath. While I was nursing J to sleep, E came up and showered w/ DH (usually he bathes with J, FTR). After the shower, he said he wanted DH to put him to bed. He asked for a snack and I told him that he hadn't eaten dinner so he needed to finish dinner first. He came downstairs, sat at his seat, looked at his food and asked for applesauce. This went on for about 20 minutes and then we set a timer to give him 2 minutes to start eating. If he still hadn't started eating when the timer went off, it was bedtime. He ended up going to bed w/o a snack but still asking for applesauce (he'd already had a big bowl of it earlier in the day, too).

I feel kind of bad, but he eats a lot throughout the day. I do allow him to graze as much as possible, but I can't just have food sitting out all day because our beagle gets aggressive with food and will eat it all. (She steals food from the kids' hands and mouths, too.)

[DancingWithElves]

:yum :yum
and :lol about the dog, itu

well, i would *not* do the timer thing :no you are introducing a foreign concept to a kid that is nowhere ready to developmentally grasp the idea of two minutes. but more importantly there is pressure and time constraint which is a very very unhealthy dynamic for a meal time :( i understand that is not what you were going for. am i right to think you are just not wanting him to sit there for who knows how long and continue begging for apple sauce and delaying his bedtime?

well, i just let a yes be yes, and a no be no. with an * :shifty when i perceive another reason for refusal, i'll explore that, but if he's not gonna eat it, he's just not gonna, yk?

[PDX Mommy]

Yes, he was at the point of just delaying bedtime, so that's why we went with the timer. We actually use the timer a lot and it works pretty effectively for him. We use it for taking turns with toys and preparing for transitions. So, he knows that the timer beeping means it's time for something to end. And, we always tell him that we're setting the timer and when it beeps it's time for XYZ. He gets it. :yes We don't use it for mealtimes, though, and only took it out tonight after he ran from the stairs to the table for the billionth time. I think he was a bit overtired on top of wanting the applesauce so hence my desire to get him into bed.

[MaybeGracie]

tell me more about that :)

a child under 5 or so does not act with a goal in mind... well, it's not that simple, but in this instance, he isn't going: "hmmm, this green stuff looks suspicious, but ya know, i'll skip it and see if i can get an apple for a snack later" :no

I (respectfully :hug) disagree. My 3.5 year old has been trying various angles for the past few months. He prefers snacks (and by "snacks", I mean a piece of fruit, some yogurt, applesauce, cheese cubes, etc) over dinner, he just does. :shrug3 His goal is to get his bedtime snack without having to eat his dinner. I'm not accusing him of ill intent or of being manipulative or anything negative like that, just very matter-of-factly recognizing that he does have a goal and he has been working to see what the boundaries are in regards to achieving that goal.

For example, I began with a very laid-back approach to meals - if he doesn't eat it, okay. :shrug3 But then he began to sit down at the table, look at his plate, and say that he didn't want it, could he please have his bedtime snack now? That wasn't happening, so I became more firm in regards to eating dinner. If it wasn't something he truly didn't like, I expected him to eat it. There is a definite difference between his "meh, I'm not in the mood for chicken pot pie" expression versus his "*gag* this ___ is so disgusting, please have mercy and don't make me eat anymore!" expression. For the latter, okay. I encourage a bite or two and that's it, he can leave it on his plate and finish the rest of his dinner (as long as he is polite about it - it's okay to not like something, but it's not okay to be rude over it). But for the former, well, too bad. That's dinner.

But he soon figured out that the key words "my tummy is full" were his get-out-of-dinner-free card. I want him to recognize and respect those full cues, so I don't force him to clear his plate if he's had enough. Well, that quickly morphed into "my tummy is full...can I have my bedtime snack now?" Clearly he wasn't full, but rather he had a goal in mind and he had figured out a way to achieve it.

That led to the swift implementation of a new rule. Alright, it's fine if your tummy is full. Put your food in the fridge and go play. If you get hungry later, it's there for you. If you're too full for dinner, you're too full for a bedtime snack.

That's basically how we handle mealtimes now. If he truly and sincerely doesn't like something, he can eat a bite or two and politely decline the rest, and he can still have a snack later. If he is full, no problem, it will wait in the fridge until the next time he is hungry. If he's too full for his meal, he's too full for a snack. But then we don't have any major issues with pickiness (more so just "eh, I'd rather have a snack, if it's all the same to you, Mom"), so that might make a difference in the best way to approach things.

[PDX Mommy]

I (respectfully :hug) disagree. My 3.5 year old has been trying various angles for the past few months. He prefers snacks (and by "snacks", I mean a piece of fruit, some yogurt, applesauce, cheese cubes, etc) over dinner, he just does. :shrug3 His goal is to get his bedtime snack without having to eat his dinner. I'm not accusing him of ill intent or of being manipulative or anything negative like that, just very matter-of-factly recognizing that he does have a goal and he has been working to see what the boundaries are in regards to achieving that goal.

For example, I began with a very laid-back approach to meals - if he doesn't eat it, okay. :shrug3 But then he began to sit down at the table, look at his plate, and say that he didn't want it, could he please have his bedtime snack now? That wasn't happening, so I became more firm in regards to eating dinner. If it wasn't something he truly didn't like, I expected him to eat it. There is a definite difference between his "meh, I'm not in the mood for chicken pot pie" expression versus his "*gag* this ___ is so disgusting, please have mercy and don't make me eat anymore!" expression. For the latter, okay. I encourage a bite or two and that's it, he can leave it on his plate and finish the rest of his dinner (as long as he is polite about it - it's okay to not like something, but it's not okay to be rude over it). But for the former, well, too bad. That's dinner.

But he soon figured out that the key words "my tummy is full" were his get-out-of-dinner-free card. I want him to recognize and respect those full cues, so I don't force him to clear his plate if he's had enough. Well, that quickly morphed into "my tummy is full...can I have my bedtime snack now?" Clearly he wasn't full, but rather he had a goal in mind and he had figured out a way to achieve it.

That led to the swift implementation of a new rule. Alright, it's fine if your tummy is full. Put your food in the fridge and go play. If you get hungry later, it's there for you. If you're too full for dinner, you're too full for a bedtime snack.

That's basically how we handle mealtimes now. If he truly and sincerely doesn't like something, he can eat a bite or two and politely decline the rest, and he can still have a snack later. If he is full, no problem, it will wait in the fridge until the next time he is hungry. If he's too full for his meal, he's too full for a snack. But then we don't have any major issues with pickiness (more so just "eh, I'd rather have a snack, if it's all the same to you, Mom"), so that might make a difference in the best way to approach things.

Thank you! This is exactly where we are with E. And, his pickiness isn't really disgust over what he's eating. He just apparently doesn't want to eat certain food groups. :giggle I would totally respect a true food aversion and I absolutely will not force him to clear his plate. But, he's also using the "my tummy is full" card and then asking for a snack almost immediately afterward (and I have said, "If you're hungry, then you can have more of your dinner"). I think I will try telling him to put his plate in the fridge in case he gets hungry later. :yes

[DancingWithElves]

well, i understand what you mean and i do agree :) and truly, you could say and infant crying for milk is doing it with a goal in mind.

i can't think of a better to articulate exactly what i mean by purpose, but basically, if you had a teen doing this same thing, the thought pattern behind that would be different. if it were an adult--very different.

the reason we do not assign negative intent like manipulation or struggle for a leadership position in the family to our kids is not just b/c we always seek to apply positive intent. it's b/c they are not *capable* of doing those things, which are in fact assessments of their behavior based on adult developmental level and function, not theirs. oh, cool, i think i actually made sense :giggle

Really, it's the same principles of GBD as we use everywhere else :shrug3
- set him up for success by creating environment conducive to a nice dinner experience and by offering foods you know he is not repulsed by

-have clear and appropriate expectations for your own sake: it is normal be remain somewhat of a grazer until the age of 7. one does not go from natural on-demand nursing to three squares a day :lol

-teach meaning through actions, b/c again, under 5's learn by imitation and experience. Great example: he learned what "full tummy" means b/c cause is saying "my tummy is full" and effect is being done.

And really, provided he does not hate the dinner menu, sticking it in the fridge and offering it later *is* a snack, just a creative, re-cycled, nutritious snack.
I've been known to cut things up and put them in different plates then saying "snaaack tiiime" and the "gross dinner" would be gone in minutes :shifty

[toastedsalmon]

I've been away a while, but we go through the same sort of things here. I would add a few environmental solutions-- when we sit down to dinner, we turn off the TV, the computer, and basically all the lights except for the lights over the table, and even those are a little dimmed. It makes even squirmy toddlers more likely to sit at the table, because other distractions aren't in sight. We make it a big deal so the kids want to come sit down together at the same time and we say grace and then start eating, and no one eats before we're all sitting together and ready. And we let them participate in things like cutting bread with real knives, since dh and I are right there to supervise. Some nights are better than others, but I find the more regularly we have dinner together and the less distractions, the "better" they eat at meal time. (All this with the understanding that we're also teaching them to read fullness cues, not cleaning plates, etc)

[DancingWithElves]

good points, but really i'm just :giggle at "toastedsalmon"

[swimming with sharks]

So I know I'm coming in in the middle here, but can I ask why it matters if he eats 'the dinner you made?' :think That's totally not snarky. :hug Little kids DO eat better during the day. :yes By dinner/bedtime they're normally tired, having a harder time with being overwhelmed, etc. They eat better during the day which is when I add in lots of good healthy stuff. :tu I make one dinner here. I try to have parts that everybody will eat, but sometimes that's just not happening. :shrug3 You are always welcome to make a sandwich if you don't like dinner. My 3y 3 mth ds1 can almost do it all on his own. :yes He gets out the sunbutter, the bread, a knife, some homemade jelly. I sometimes help him get it all spread out. When he found out he could have a sandwich rather than dinner, he did it every night for nearly two weeks. I was getting frustrated, dh wanted to know why? He was eating healthy food, getting in his protein, not waking in the night (a sure sign of hunger in our house!) He stopped when he realized that eating the same food each night was pretty boring. Our after dinner 'snack' is yogurt/frzn fruit. I think the way a lot of us were raised snack/dessert has a 'deserved' and junk connotation which I'm trying to remove from our home. Everyone gets a midmorning snack, an afternoon snack, pre-dinner snacks if melting down happens (normally I use parts of dinner ;)). Don't get hung up on the words and their meaning. :no Lastly remember that your job is to provide them healthy choices. :rockon You can't MAKE kids eat (I'm not talking about kids with special needs here) just like you can't make them sleep. :heart

[bolt.]

People eat for two reasons: (a) for hunger, (b) for taste.

My 3 year old hardly ever eats more than a few bites of supper. It's just not a hungry time for her, and very few supper-like foods offer a taste incentive.

Of course she would choose to eat-for-taste if something sweet or otherwise good to her was on offer, even at a non-hungry time.

We don't have a bedtime snack (because supper is 6:00, and bedtime is 7:00) but if she was under the impression she could eat-for-taste, she would certainly ask to do so.

So I have a requirement that she drink her 1/2 glass of milk, and otherwise she is free to be done when she is done. (I consider a 1/2 glass of milk and a few nibbles to be enough food-energy to last her less than an hour until bed time. She eats plenty throughout the day) I don't confuse the issue by offering other foods when she has already communicated a lack of hunger.

[Joanne]

I despise these threads with a red hot passion.

However, I do want to say that eating problems are multi-caused and complex. There is not one GBD response because each situation is different. There is not, contrary to what you might read here or elsewhere, an ideal way to handle food issues. :shrug3

Not every short term cook is permissive. Not every "eat what I make or go hungry" approach is punitive. :shrug3 Not every picky kid is picky due to organic issues. Not every picky kid is picky because of junk food juju or parenting decisions.

[Beth1231]

Joanne, I understand what you are saying but there are still going to be lots of Mamas here who want to pool each other's ideas and resources on how to solve the individual problems/frustrations as they arise. :shrug3 I learn a lot from these sorts of threads.

ETA: We've been doing "take a bite of dinner and eat your vitamins" thing for awhile now and sometimes she will completely refuse to try something and she probably goes to bed a little bit hungry. I'm trying to leave it in her ballpark as much as possible but also encourage her to try (or at least lick :giggle )new tastes and textures. I know she won't eat like this when she's 12. I keep reminding myself that she's only three and these things take time.

[PDX Mommy]

I despise these threads with a red hot passion.

However, I do want to say that eating problems are multi-caused and complex. There is not one GBD response because each situation is different. There is not, contrary to what you might read here or elsewhere, an ideal way to handle food issues. :shrug3

Not every short term cook is permissive. Not every "eat what I make or go hungry" approach is punitive. :shrug3 Not every picky kid is picky due to organic issues. Not every picky kid is picky because of junk food juju or parenting decisions.

I'm sorry you feel that way and I get what you're saying. :shrug3 I wasn't trying to bring up a discussion of what causes picky eaters/eating disorders/etc. I just wanted to get some ideas as to whether or not my expectations were age appropriate. And, as I have found, it seems like there is never just one GBD response for any situation. :hug

[DancingWithElves]

I despise these threads with a red hot passion.

However, I do want to say that eating problems are multi-caused and complex. There is not one GBD response because each situation is different. There is not, contrary to what you might read here or elsewhere, an ideal way to handle food issues. :shrug3

Not every short term cook is permissive. Not every "eat what I make or go hungry" approach is punitive. :shrug3 Not every picky kid is picky due to organic issues. Not every picky kid is picky because of junk food juju or parenting decisions.

i really respect your opinions and i wish you would say more :) the above seems so vague and general. and i just don't think anyone was saying anything categorically against short-term cooks or junk food :scratch i truly don't see this as any different of an issue than sleeping, or chores, or what have you.

:poke

[SweetCaroline]

i really respect your opinions and i wish you would say more :) the above seems so vague and general. and i just don't think anyone was saying anything categorically against short-term cooks or junk food :scratch i truly don't see this as any different of an issue than sleeping, or chores, or what have you.

:poke

someone linked to a similar thread going right now on this topic,
it seems like alot of ladies on here feel that if parents do *anything* directive involving food- its just horrible,terrible,and Dobson-esqe.
:shrug3 i agree that every situation is different. certianly, doing the "Mommy Dearest" move and re-serving the same dinner the next morning for breakfast..then lunch..then dinner, when the child wont eat it is rediculous. ( my grandma did this to me once:-/) but, i cant NOT giude my children just bc i had a bad experience, kwim?? i can be gentle, realistic, and respect opinions, and offer choices..
but i really dont think my 2 yr old should only eat cheese and craisins because thats all he likes?
one thing i found REALLY helpful was giving a big healthy snack about 3.5 hrs before dinner- then nothing else. everyone is in the mood to eat when dinner is served...even the 2 yr old :heart