"Spare the rod?"

[Housekat]

I hesitate to post this because I'm sure there is an answer to this somewhere on the board, but I can't find it (even did a search!)

Is there a place/discussion/thread that looked into the actual scripture and (scripturally/theologically) refuted the argument people use when using that particular scripture? Any thoughts welcome - maybe someone can point me to the right place?

TIA!

Kat

[Housekat]

So, in other words, is "spare the rod and spoil the child" meant to be interpreted as "if you don't spank your kids they will grow up spoilt and unable to fit into society"? Or can we go back to the original Hebrew and to context and show that it ought to be read differently?

Any thoughts?

(Mods, maybe this should go into theology discussion?)

[megmac]

From Crystals site

http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod

[Housekat]

great, thanks :)

[SilverMoon]

Here's a study Joanne did, too, from her web page
Study of The Rod Scriptures (http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id4.html).

[lizzyd]

One of my favorite resources is "Christian Parents and the Spanking Controversy" by Samuel Martin. pdf of the book here (http://parentingfreedom.com/samuelmartinbook.pdf).

[Hermana Linda]

BarefootBetsy just posted a fantastic study of Spanking and Proverbs. (http://greenegem.wordpress.com/2010/10/30/spanking-and-proverbs-part-2-interpretations/) :tu

[Delaney]

I didn't check out the links posted yet, so sorry if this is just repetitive, but my understanding is the "rod" is what a shephard used to gently guide his sheep with. It was not something he used to punish or hit his sheep/herd with.

Which also makes sense with "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me".

[Hermana Linda]

I didn't check out the links posted yet, so sorry if this is just repetitive, but my understanding is the "rod" is what a shephard used to gently guide his sheep with. It was not something he used to punish or hit his sheep/herd with.

Which also makes sense with "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me".
You are right. :yes Which reminds me, I found a blog post today on exactly that (http://minichfamilyblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/thy-rod-and-thy-staff-they-comfort-me.html).

Of course, it also has other meanings, hence the Bible Studies linked above. :tu

[blagosloven]

I remember Dr. Sears explaining the misunderstanding of "spare the rod" as well. He talks of it here. (scroll down to #6)

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp

[saturnfire16]

This is an old thread and this is discussed in the links posted, but I just wanted to point out that the phrase "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not actually found in the Bible. It's from a poem.

[satin.mama]

Old thread! Sorry, I'm a relative newbie :) I was going to start a thread to ask about this, but I found this one!

Just wanted to say in response to the last post that the Bible does talk about sparing the rod - it's just that what it talks about is the reason for it (a person who spares the rod does it because he hates his child), not the consequence of it ("spoiling" the child - from the poem, like saturnfire16 said). Proverbs 13:24: "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

I'm looking into this at the moment, because my husband and I are under the impression that the Bible certainly doesn't forbid physical discipline, and in fact does mention it positively a number of times ("the rod" - and we have heard the idea that the rod is metaphorical, but we don't at this time believe that because we see God choosing the word "rod" where it could have been "discipline," "authority," or whatever). And then there's the very clear example of it being a rod used for striking in Proverbs 23:13-14: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol." :think

I totally get where people are coming from psychologically who think that spanking is harmful, and I expect some will be angry with me that I even bring this up, and will think that we're bad parents because we use physical discipline. But I really am searching for the true answer because I want to do the right thing for my children. I hope that makes sense!

I will also read the links given above when I have time :)

Thank you! :heart

[HadassahSukkot]

In a Jewish mindset, the Rod is what one has that symbolizes authority. Like the head of a tribe, a clan, or a household. It's a walking implement and something to ward off predators. Think of it like a Bo staff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%8D). :yes

They'd not be using that on their kids or adult children. It's a tree branch!

Shepherds don't whip their sheep with their staff. They ward off predators and thieves.

Punitive, physical punishment is very, very frowned upon in the Jewish community.:shifty

[Wonder Woman]

Hi Satin.Mama! I'm so glad you're here with us on GCM :heart

Just as a reminder, the board posting guidelines (http://gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showthread.php?t=114024) say:
"1. No posts promoting or supportive of punishments, including spanking and traditional timeouts, or other punitive ideas."

and our Statement of Beliefs (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/aboutgcm/beliefs.php) says:
Parents have been given authority over their children from the Lord. Scripture is clear that discipline and correction are our responsibility as we raise our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Fear and purposely-inflicted pain have no place in gentle, loving, Biblical discipline, and children should be discipled from birth with an appropriate mixture of kindness and firmness in a manner that respects their feelings and their developmental, emotional, and daily needs.

So while no one here is angry that you believe otherwise, or has any desire to call you a bad parent, GCM isn't the best place to express a belief in striking children as Biblically-mandated "discipline".

I encourage you and your husband to read the links provided; I think they will be eye-opening for you. I know they were for me and my husband!

[saturnfire16]

I'm looking into this at the moment, because my husband and I are under the impression that the Bible certainly doesn't forbid physical discipline, and in fact does mention it positively a number of times ("the rod" - and we have heard the idea that the rod is metaphorical, but we don't at this time believe that because we see God choosing the word "rod" where it could have been "discipline," "authority," or whatever).

I don't believe physical discipline falls under:

Love your neighbor as yourself.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
Be compassionate and kind to one another, forgiving each other.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.



And then there's the very clear example of it being a rod used for striking in Proverbs 23:13-14: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol." :think


If you hit a child with a walking stick about as big around as the small end of a baseball bat, he very well could die! We've seen children die from far less (getting hit with plumbing supply line, like Lydia Schatz). :(

So either the Bible clearly logically and scientifically wrong or this verse isn't about physical discipline at all.

Also, most people who spank don't actually use a walking stick because it's pretty easy to see how that would be dangerous. They use a hand, maybe even a stick or wooden spoon. But if one believes that the Bible is promoting physical discipline *with a walking stick* then the appropriate thing to use would be a walking stick. :sick


I totally get where people are coming from psychologically who think that spanking is harmful, and I expect some will be angry with me that I even bring this up, and will think that we're bad parents because we use physical discipline. But I really am searching for the true answer because I want to do the right thing for my children. I hope that makes sense!

I doubt anyone is angry with you. :no Many of us have been in exactly the same place with the same questions you have. :yes I'm glad you're here! :hug

[CelticJourney]

If you are going to use Proverbs as the foundation for your belief on this, I will challenge you to consider starting with stoning fools and cutting out your tounge for speaking lies FIRST. My only caution is that unlike a child, fools are not helpless and sometimes they wise up and start returning fire.:shrug3 Be very careful what wisdom literature you decide to take on face value and which you decide are 'proverbial'.

My rule of thumb has always been to take a piece of scripture to the 'foot of the cross' and see how it compares to the gospel of Christ. Does inflicting physical pain mesh with the patient discipling that Christ displayed? Does inflicting physical pain truely teach the objective attempted or does it teach fear?

[rjy9343]

I for one, am not angry. I am certain that punishment is not what God wants us to do, but I cannot say why. I always like seeing these threads because I walk away with a better understanding of why I am doing this than I had before the discussion.

[jenny_islander]

This is an old thread and this is discussed in the links posted, but I just wanted to point out that the phrase "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not actually found in the Bible. It's from a poem.

Not even a religious poem. The full quote is,

If Love's a boy by poets styl'd,
Then spare the rod and spoil the child.

The full passage has the same theme as John Mellencamp's "Oooh, Baby, Make It Hurt So Good." Not about child rearing at--all. :sick

[righteous mama]

I for one, am not angry. I am certain that punishment is not what God wants us to do, but I cannot say why. I always like seeing these threads because I walk away with a better understanding of why I am doing this than I had before the discussion.
As I read through I came away with this same thought...more or less. I'm not angry it was brought up. It's a good way to sharpen yourself and others and remind others why we are doing this. In fact, some of what others have said reminded me that I need to work on some behaviors regarding forgiveness and kindness between my daughters (typical girls always snarking at each other).

My story is that I never felt the need to spank naturally. My parents only spanked me once and it was actually for something I didn't do (they felt pressured to "discipline" me because a neighbor accused me of saying something about her...which is ridiculous because I looked up to that neighbor and nearly idolized her...I would *never* say what she said I said). With my own daughters I felt strongly drawn toward gentle parenting/attachment parenting. I found GCM when my oldest was a teeny baby.

At that point I still believed that spanking was in the Bible, but I chose not to use that "tool" with my daughter. My girls have been spanked...due to my own failings and always followed with an apology for my behavior. BUT, it wasn't until I did a full study on the "spanking" verses that I was convinced without a shadow of a doubt that spanking is not mandated and it's not even encouraged by Scripture. I wrote a paper on it. My professor was amazed by what I found and I actually taught him something...and that's saying something because he is a very educated man!

I agree with everything everyone else has said already. I just wanted to give a brief synopsis of my journey.

[BarefootBetsy]

Well, to give you context for my posts, in particular, I came to the topic of Biblical discipline and the rod verses (after having avoided it for several years :shifty) expecting to find at least SOME Biblical support for physical punishments and what I came away with was that there's really not any. My final conclusion at the end of my three-post series was shocking to me, in fact.

I found in my study that there are three potential ways to interpret the word "rod" and that only one of those ways would indicate physical punishment while, at the same time, contradicting the rest of the message of the gospel.

My posts are long, but thorough, and there are a great many excellent questions and answers in the comments underneath them, as well :yes

All the other posts mentioned in this thread are well worth reading also :tu But, in case you might think that everyone who wrote about it started off with a presupposition of punishment not being Biblical, I wanted to make sure that you knew that, at least in my case, that's not how it happened at all :no :heart

[HadassahSukkot]

I thought it was biblical too. I was taught and had it beat into me over and over and over and over again that it was. I had used that horrible method on my oldest and moved away from that when I joined GCM and saw what I had secretly believed deep down (but had shoved a sock in her mouth and tied up the poor little girl) and was afraid to let loose. :(

I'm becoming stronger in my belief, though am challenged at almost every turn by friends and family in the US.

[saturnfire16]

I also started out spanking and thought it was Biblical. Then when I found GCM and other resources and studied it out, it became so clear that it is, as BarefootBetsy said, contrary to the message of the gospel.

[rjy9343]

I will say that one thing that really convinced me that spanking is not something that must be done to have well behaved kids is moving to Germany. It is illegal to spank here and the kids are no better or worse behaved than in the US. Though, I have noticed that when I am on the barracks I hear a lot more crying and whining that I do when I am on the economy.
I was shocked to see small children riding bikes with their parents and then stopping at the end of the sidewalk, traffic signal or other place that they needed an adult. I mean children that are two or three without an adult standing there to make them obey. If spanking is illegal, they did it without hurting them.
Another thing that amazed me was the number of children going on field trips with maybe three teachers. Twenty kids have three teachers to keep an eye on them as they get on and off public transit, walk on the sidewalk and go to the destination. But the really amazing thing is how often they take short cuts though the playground and no one tries to play.
Also when we go to the parks, I see far less shoving, hitting and other not so great behavior from the ages we expect it in the US. I am not saying it never happens, but the parents are watching the kids and ready to intervene if they do something like snatch toys, but for the most part are hands off and let the kids work out their differences. Now when it is time to go, they act just like American kids and plead for more time and even refuse to stop. More than one parent has had to physically removed a kicking and screaming child from the equipment. Some things are just universal.

---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------

One other thing I have noticed is that when I see kids crying and upset, I see more parents on the kids' level talking to them and hugging them. While I don't understand the words, I do understand the tone and it is not impatient or annoyed. It is gentle and kind. Sometimes reassuring, sometimes firm, but never harsh. It is also as likely to be the father as it is the mother. (Which is something I love to see).

[Rose5000]

I will say that one thing that really convinced me that spanking is not something that must be done to have well behaved kids is moving to Germany. It is illegal to spank here and the kids are no better or worse behaved than in the US. Though, I have noticed that when I am on the barracks I hear a lot more crying and whining that I do when I am on the economy.
I was shocked to see small children riding bikes with their parents and then stopping at the end of the sidewalk, traffic signal or other place that they needed an adult. I mean children that are two or three without an adult standing there to make them obey. If spanking is illegal, they did it without hurting them.
Another thing that amazed me was the number of children going on field trips with maybe three teachers. Twenty kids have three teachers to keep an eye on them as they get on and off public transit, walk on the sidewalk and go to the destination. But the really amazing thing is how often they take short cuts though the playground and no one tries to play.
Also when we go to the parks, I see far less shoving, hitting and other not so great behavior from the ages we expect it in the US. I am not saying it never happens, but the parents are watching the kids and ready to intervene if they do something like snatch toys, but for the most part are hands off and let the kids work out their differences. Now when it is time to go, they act just like American kids and plead for more time and even refuse to stop. More than one parent has had to physically removed a kicking and screaming child from the equipment. Some things are just universal.

---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------

One other thing I have noticed is that when I see kids crying and upset, I see more parents on the kids' level talking to them and hugging them. While I don't understand the words, I do understand the tone and it is not impatient or annoyed. It is gentle and kind. Sometimes reassuring, sometimes firm, but never harsh. It is also as likely to be the father as it is the mother. (Which is something I love to see).

Thank you for this very insightful observation.

[mooose5]

...because we see God choosing the word "rod" where it could have been "discipline," "authority," or whatever).
It's important to keep in mind that the Bible was not written in English but in Hebrew (and Greek). So while our translations say "rod" instead of "authority" we have to look at the original word and figure out the meaning of it, and study context to see what the author's original intent was. I am right there with you trying to figure this all out! :)

[LearningMama]

Adding another blog series. :)
This one is by MaybeGracie: The Rod Verses: Taking the rod verses literally (http://hippiehousewife.blogspot.com/2011/11/rod-verses-taking-rod-verses-literally.html). It's a 3 part series.