African American community and spanking

[butterflyqueen71]

So, the Cosby thread got me to wondering if Bill Cosby believed in spanking...seeing that he is a child psychologist and his show never (that I recall) promoted spanking. I found a couple articles I thought were very interesting. Spanking is very, very prevalent in the AA community. I mean, it's 2nd nature, it's expected, and not just from Mama (or Daddy but especially Mama) but Grandma, Auntie so-and-so...all children's behinds are game for the closest adult. It's just the way it is, and in some cases, it is the highest form of love. Even if parents dont' actively spank, its not because they don't believe in it.

Seriously. It's probably way more deeply entrenched in the AA community than it is in your mainstream churches...and there's the double whammy because culture and religion are often to deeply intertwined in the AA community.

It's just a different world. :shrug3

So you can imagine, as an AA woman who is trying to NOT spank my child, it is an extremely, extremely uphill battle to come against such an entrenched mindset.

I thought I'd share a couple articles with you all here, so you can get an idea of the mindset in AA communities. I know I've mentioned it a few times on this board when in certain situations there was a cultural gap, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss it here at length especially. I know most of you all here at GCM are not AA, but I thought you might be interested in the prevailing mindsets of a culture and how it affects parenting...and the outcome. I found this article that does a great job of describing what spanking looks like in an AA home...link is broken because while it discusses anti-spanking, it leans more in the "pro" camp:

http://www.salon.com/life/feature/1998/10/
cov_07featurea2.html

And while I've not thoroughly searched Bill Cosby's official stand on spanking, I found this excellent article about how he's talking about parenting, especially in the AA community...link still broken b/c I don't know this site...

http://thethinkingmother.blogspot.com/2007/11/bill-cosby- on-parenting.html

She gives a link to BC's spanking stand (against :tu) on the Oprah site, but it must be old cuz I couldn't find it.

Anyway, I'd love to discuss this paradigm further. I've run into this issue with dd many times. :sigh Now, *I* was not spanked very often (hardly ever) as a child...but not because my parents thought it was "wrong". :shrug3

I also wonder about the correlation b/w spanking and educated...the more "educated" the parents, the less likely they are to spank? My parents were more educated than their parents. :think

There are so many different ways to discuss this topic...anyone fair game?

:popcorn

[bananacake]

I'd love to hear more :yes

[LeeDee]

I'm subbing. I don't have much interesting input on the subject but would love to hear more
:popcorn

[TuneMyHeart]

:cup

[Heather Micaela]

I am aware of this paradigm, but my AA friends , even if they migh have been spanked in the mainstream were not part of this. And one of my best friends is AA and they use the stuff out of Love and Logic (which I do not always agree with, but beats a more punitive mindset). Do you think location, economic status, and education level play into this? I was raised squarely middle of the middle class in a mixed but still largely white area. My friend grew up in an even more affluent and less integrated area. She is a teacher and her dh is a physicist.

ETA: Cosby must have changed his stance as he grew, beacuse his stand up comedy does mention them spanking the kids. And he calls it beating for comic effect. But everything I have ever seen of him does not really reflect that. I have seen him come down hard on black men and their responsiblity to the family and such. He got some flack for that IIRC

[MudPies]

i find it interesting too. i live in the deep south and I remember having AA teachers joke about spanking certain students even in middle school- 8th grade. I wish the obama's would be more vocal about their parenting bc they don't spank and I think they could be an example to turn the thinking.

[BarefootBetsy]

:cup

[relizabeth]

Ta-Nehisi Coates had, like, the most amazing discussion ever of this very topic on his blog a few months ago.

Here's the initial post, "Earning the Temporary Hatred of Your Children"

http://www.theatlantic .com/culture/archive/2010/01/earning-the-temporary-hatred-of-your-children/33835/

Here's a follow-up post, "Race, Parenting, and Punishment"

http://www.theatlantic .com/culture/archive/2010/01/race-parenting-and-punishment/34005/

And a third, "Spanking and Middle-Class Acculturation"

http://www.theatlantic .com/culture/archive/2010/01/spanking-and-middle-class-acculturation/34033/

Links are all broken.

[andrea_r]

Definitely interested, and thanks for the background. I really appreciate it.

(Happy Juneteenth. ;) )

[butterflyqueen71]

Ta-Nehisi Coates had, like, the most amazing discussion ever of this very topic on his blog a few months ago.

Here's the initial post, "Earning the Temporary Hatred of Your Children"

http://www.theatlantic .com/culture/archive/2010/01/earning-the-temporary-hatred-of-your-children/33835/

Here's a follow-up post, "Race, Parenting, and Punishment"

http://www.theatlantic .com/culture/archive/2010/01/race-parenting-and-punishment/34005/

And a third, "Spanking and Middle-Class Acculturation"

http://www.theatlantic .com/culture/archive/2010/01/spanking-and-middle-class-acculturation/34033/

Links are all broken.

Ooh, I'll have to look at those when I get some time! :popcorn

[mokamoto]

I, too, grew up in the deep south and this topic touches my memories. Spanking was indeed expected IME and I am interested to read the research cited here. Thank you for this thread. :heart

[Allison]

I think spanking in general is much more prevalent in the South. :yes2

As far as education, I'd like to say that it was always the case that the more educated are less likely to spank. My MIL has a master's and will still smack a child in a heartbeat. *sigh* She's spanked my boys at least twice that I know of and it's caused pretty big issues for us. My children much prefer my parents to her and, while she has no idea that this is the case, it is because they are gentle and she is not (they were NOT gentle with me as a child, though). However, out of all of her sisters (all five sisters have at least an undergrad degree, three have advanced degrees), she is by far the most gentle. :-/ Their mother, however, is very gentle with all of the children so I suppose they will mellow in time. :giggle
It's just so deeply ingrained in the southern way of life.

My husband has never spanked our boys. He has used intimidation before, though, and then feels badly afterward and can't understand what triggered it. He's much more patient with the boys than I am, that's for sure. :O I've seen one of his uncles intimidate a child but overall the men in his family are pretty quiet and calm. It's the women who are running the show, for sure.

I wonder if the physical punishment in the AA community would stay the same, increase, or lessen if AA men were more vocal about and more active in discipline? :think

[racheepoo]

Um, he minored in child psychology in his undergrad :shrug He is not a child psychologist, licensed to be one, or has ever practiced as one. Just wanted to point that out ;)

[jewelmcjem]

That was what I thought. His "doctorate" is an honorary degree.

[racheepoo]

He did earn a Ph.D. in education AFAIK :yes

[relizabeth]

That was what I thought. His "doctorate" is an honorary degree.

He earned both an MA and an Ed.D from the University of Massachusetts. His doctorate is legitimate. :)

[Amy]

I'm not AA but can appreciate where you're coming from. It's not anywhere near the same, but living in the deep south I have yet to find someone who doesn't spank and am trying to find a church that doesn't condone it, but it's not looking good at all. The church I visited this morning the pastor actually advocated paddling. I feel so alone...

[Leslie_JJKs_mom]

this is the speech Bill Cosby gave that got him so much flack. Personally I cheered that he told it straight.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm

I’m talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was two? Where were you when he was twelve? Where were you when he was eighteen, and how come you don’t know he had a pistol? And where is his father, and why don’t you know where he is? And why doesn’t the father show up to talk to this boy?

[butterflyqueen71]

One thing I thought was interesting about the one article was that not spanking was seen as a very "white" thing to do. I know I thought that in the past. :shifty Seriously, how many little AA kids have you seen tantruming at Walmart? :giggle I would've never dreamed of throwing a tantrum in front of my mama! Not because she would spank, but all she had to do was give me "the look" and I knew not to make a peep. "The Look" never worked with my dd. :shifty

Anyway, spanking in the south is definitely prevalent, but spanking in the south in AA culture? I'm not even talkign about a pat on the behind, either. I'm talking a whoopin', with the switch and everything! It is expected, almost demanded, and seen as almost reverent. Grown folks look back with fondness on being whooped. :dohAnd yeah, Mama's do a lot of the whoopin. :think

It is definitely a fascinating topic to study!

[michelle]

One thing I thought was interesting about the one article was that not spanking was seen as a very "white" thing to do. I know I thought that in the past. :shifty Seriously, how many little AA kids have you seen tantruming at Walmart? :giggle I would've never dreamed of throwing a tantrum in front of my mama! Not because she would spank, but all she had to do was give me "the look" and I knew not to make a peep. "The Look" never worked with my dd. :shifty

Anyway, spanking in the south is definitely prevalent, but spanking in the south in AA culture? I'm not even talkign about a pat on the behind, either. I'm talking a whoopin', with the switch and everything! It is expected, almost demanded, and seen as almost reverent. Grown folks look back with fondness on being whooped. :dohAnd yeah, Mama's do a lot of the whoopin. :think

It is definitely a fascinating topic to study!

Yes, yes, this statement is very true.

As an AA women who grew up in the south and north, there is a strong expectation to spank. Also older siblings are expected to spank the younger if they "get out of line". One reason I have heard that AA spank is because they do not want their children winding up selling drugs and winding up in jail. Another reason is to control the wildness in their children so they will make good decision such as not getting pregnant too early. (These statements will make sense if you watch the show Everybody Hates Chris. This subject is brought up very often with the assumption that this is expected behaviour and if you do not follow the protocol then negative behavior will result.)

These statements are very controversial because the studies show that the AA community has these problems very prevalent. I do not think that most AA will take to heart nonpunitive parenting unless they see success stories. I say this because many AA parents know there are alternatives to spanking but they do not think that the measures will work because of life experiences.

One reason many do not believe in non-punitive parenting is because a few parents who do not spank in the AA communitive are so lax on their correction, that their children tend to trample their parents rules. So many AA view it as correction=spanking no spanking=no correction or rules.

These views are backed up by generations of families and the church.

[Allison]

Grown folks look back with fondness on being whooped. :doh

It is definitely a fascinating topic to study!

Yes! To this day my husband is not one bit upset that he was spanked (or, yes, whooped, because spanking isn't a word that is used. lol) while I went through a period of being upset that I was spanked before finally mellowing and realizing that my parents did the best they knew how.

---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------

I do not think that most AA will take to heart nonpunitive parenting unless they see success stories. I say this because many AA parents know there are alternatives to spanking but they do not think that the measures will work because of life experiences.



Very true. My MIL chuckled at dh the first time he mentioned that we'd never spanked the boys. I know she thought it was the influence of a white woman that made him crazy on this issue. :giggle The truth is that he had never intended to spank a child under the age of five. He thought it was wrong though I'm not sure why or how he came to that conclusion. By the time our oldest was five he'd realize that we had other tools in place that made spanking unnecessary.

Sometimes the high bar we've set is kinda scary because our children are still so young. If they screw up at any point there is going to be flack about not spanking. :-/ We didn't go into this to set an example for anyone, but we are aware that we and our boys are setting an example for the younger generation of cousins who are college aged and will become parents in the next decade as well as the children who are the ages of our children.

[BHope]

Anyway, spanking in the south is definitely prevalent, but spanking in the south in AA culture? I'm not even talking about a pat on the behind, either. I'm talking a whoopin', with the switch and everything! It is expected, almost demanded, and seen as almost reverent. Grown folks look back with fondness on being whooped. :dohAnd yeah, Mama's do a lot of the whoopin. :think
I haven't read the links, but I do live in a predominately AA community. In fact, the local public elementary school demographic goes AA, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Pacific Islander, THEN Caucasian. :giggle At least, that's how it was three years ago. I haven't checked the stats recently, but I'd be surprised if Caucasian has climbed any on that list of children attending the local public schools.

Recently I was at an ARD meeting for my middle daughter who would qualify for preschool in the fall. We're not sending her to the local public school, but she does attend Speech there twice weekly for therapies. The Principal and the general educator in the meeting were urging me to send DD2 to school in the fall. I explained that I would be keeping my daughter at home but dodged the "why" question for most of the meeting.

Finally, at the end of the meeting the principal pinned me down and demanded to know why I wasn't considering the school for DD2. I finally just said that I had seen how the teachers screamed at the preschoolers. (Every morning I witness the screaming and tyrannical posturing as the teachers move their students from their class to P.E., Library, or Music.) The fact is that I don't speak to my children in that manner in my home, why would I allow someone else to screech at my child at school?

Both administrators (who were both AA) looked surprised and the one said, "You just have to understand. It's a cultural thing. AA students expect to be yelled at, and the AA teachers know that AA kids won't listen unless they're treated like that."

The matter-of-fact "this is how it is" tone that she used, the unapologetic expressions, and the astonishment that I would even care really was heart-breaking. They (the admins) truly believed that unless the teachers treated the black 4 year olds with a firm hand (ie: screaming, belittling, shaming) that the 4 year olds would grow up to be 8 year old hoodlums who put gum on the bathroom walls and who talked back in class.

[racheepoo]

It is definitely incredibly different to view and work in a predominantly AA school community. I was stressed within the first 5 minutes, while the kids are not only taking it as normal, but don't respect people who don't treat them that way. FWIW, there is no less love or caring there...it is just a far different way of teaching resilience.

I had a father tell me when his 6 year old was too sick to do her homework and I was pleading with him just to let her have a sick day at home "She'll come back tomorrow with her homework done, miss." He knows education is the ticket out of that community, and it isn't because he doesn't care. It's because he cares deeply that he will do whatever it takes to push her through it. It's ingrained and understood in the culture.

[butterflyqueen71]

You know, it's interesting that you bring up the way people talk to one another. I worked at a predominately AA high school for 2 years. Now, I am AA, but I am very, um, "cosmopolitan" if you will,meaning that I have an extremely wide circle of friends and experiences that are were not common to the experiences at the school I taught. I had also come from living in TN for 7 years, and 5 years prior to that traveling the world as a missionary, so I'd been "away" from AA culture for some time. Add in the fact that I was teaching orchestra and play the violin, married to a white guy...well, you can imagine what an oddity that makes me. I was teased by a colleague, who called me "Becky". (That's a slang for a black person that kinda acts "white"...how many black people do YOU know named "Becky".) Of course I didn't know what that meant when she called me that, which made it all the more funny. :rolleyes

Anyway, this job called for me to reach into realms of my heritage that I had not had the need to call upon before. :giggle In other words, I had to get what to me felt rather mean with my kids. It was honestly the only way I could gain their respect and their compliance with what I asked them to do. You couldn't hardly get anywhere with them unless you were talking smack to them. :shrug3 It was culture shock to me at first, but I guess "it's in my blood" and after awhile I guess I started to fit in. :giggle

Well, evidently I didn't know how to shut it off once I got home b/c my poor white dh couldn't believe the way I was talking to him. :jawdrop It caused a lot of problems between us, because I was like "what are you talking about?" But then it dawned on me...and I know this had to be the Holy Spirit that made this known to me...is that it was a cultural thing. :doh Dh was not used to seeing me in "neckroll" mode (sorry, I don't know how else to describe it :O) and it was a shock for him.

Well, I quit that job and resumed back to my "normal" self, and not only was my level of stress relieved (it was an extremely stressful job) but things b/w dh and I got better too. :heart

YOu are right, though, it really is cultural. It has nothing to do with not being respectful, although it comes across that way. :shrug3 It doesn't mean its right or wrong, but really, it is an expression of the culture.

So spanking is the same way...while it may be looked upon as :jawdrop by someone on the outside looking in, it is perceived as normal and natural, and honestly, it is an expression of love in AA culture. What used to be an act of defilement and aggression and humiliation (slavery) has now been "taken back" and become a symbol of love, sacrifice, and wishing the best on the one receiving the "beating".

Seriously, I know it may not make sense, but that is the way it is in AA culture. So when I come here, I feel like I'm fighting years of conditioning...not even so much from "the church" and the misuse of Scriptures, but from the expectations and indoctrination of an entire culture. :shrug3

[Marielle]

Very similar in Latin culture which I think (at least for us dominicans) ties into the the shared african roots. The effect of slavery aggravated the cultural side of spanking into something so much more IMO. DH grew up in deep south georgia (caucasian) and also remembers a similar dynamic switch and all. I tell him he and I grew up the same but in different languages. ;)

Thankfully for some reason my parents didn't spank a lot. But they did employ the power/manipulation dynamic of punitive parenting to get us to do what they wanted us to do. Yes other family members were allowed to "keep us in line" although in the more recent generation that has come up less and less.

As far as people remembering spanking fondly. That's really due to the abuse dynamic. If I admit that what was done to me was wrong then I admit the person doing it was wrong and then I have the responsibility to stop the cycle. And how do you do that in a dynamic where your elders are "over" you no matter how old you are? I remember hearing of my grandfather, a ripe old 20-30something man being slapped squarely on the face by his mother on her deathbed for daring to say he might consider giving up the family land.

[BHope]

I think about the cultural aspect of it, and fully admit that I'm willing to concede my own limitations... but I watch these little four year olds in line at the local elementary school. I see the despair on their faces, the dry hic-cuppy sobbing, the tears and the sullen walking. I cannot even fathom how -in those moments- they can feel any love. :(

Abusive behavior, whether it's rooted in culture, ignorance, or even love is still abusive. Right?

I know that part of my disconnect comes from the fact that we have lots of AA kids who come through our home. I have as yet met one who didn't respond as well to gentle parenting and positive reinforcements as children from other cultural backgrounds.

[AdrienneQW]

I know that part of my disconnect comes from the fact that we have lots of AA kids who come through our home. I have as yet met one who didn't respond as well to gentle parenting and positive reinforcements as children from other cultural backgrounds.

Thank you.

[Allison]

I think about the cultural aspect of it, and fully admit that I'm willing to concede my own limitations... but I watch these little four year olds in line at the local elementary school. I see the despair on their faces, the dry hic-cuppy sobbing, the tears and the sullen walking. I cannot even fathom how -in those moments- they can feel any love. :(

Abusive behavior, whether it's rooted in culture, ignorance, or even love is still abusive. Right?

I know that part of my disconnect comes from the fact that we have lots of AA kids who come through our home. I have as yet met one who didn't respond as well to gentle parenting and positive reinforcements as children from other cultural backgrounds.

I struggle with this SO much. Just finished a course last semester on Ethnic and Social Diversity. It was hammered home that what equals pathology in one culture does not always equal pathology in another culture. I totally get that and try to filter my thoughts and beliefs about other cultures through that mindset. But I get so frustrated when I, for example, read studies that talk about how spanking affects Caucasian children more negatively than it does African-American children. As if it's somehow okay to punitively parent a child from a certain ethnicity or culture. There are some things that are just not good for humans in general. If someday I am counseling a family of any ethnic background who spanks or parents punitively, I will be sensitive to their cultural beliefs but will not sugar coat the fact that punitive, physical parenting is both unnecessary and harmful.

I'm not sure where I going with this and I'm feeling rambly so I'll stop. Am I making any sense at all, though? :think

[Dana Joy]

Allison, I totally get what you are saying. :hugheart There are some things that are wrong PERIOD, cultural relativism aside. And I am really good at looking at cultures and accepting that there are many many things that I value in my own culture that are relative and not moral issues, BUT the fact of the matter is that there are some issues that are black and white, right and wrong, and those things cannot become right just because it is the cultural norm.

[Marsha]

It is also true that while we like it or not, or it's right or wrong or not....some things do not have the negative effect in some cultures that they do here. There was a study done in which women who had mothers who hated them, and how that affected their adult lives. Hands down, affluent white girls were affected way more than AA counterparts and/or poorer white counter parts. The difference? The upper class whites HID their dislike and aggression and PRETENDED it was something else, where it was just dished out and accepted in the AA culture.

I think that alone makes a big difference. There are even cultures in which certain sexual practices do not leave the damage that it would here and while, perhaps not "right" is not wrong for the reasons we give, ie., the damage inflicted.

Which of course takes me back to my original saying: the way I parent and the way I live has more to say About ME and how I think God wants ME to live than for any end result.

[gardenfreshmama]

Thanks, Kimberly, for bringing up this subject. This is something I've been thinking about for a long time now, but didn't feel "right" bringing it up here since I'm not AA.

My interest comes from parenting groups I facilitate at our local elementary schools - about 60-70% AA in attendance and the curriculum we follow is anti-spanking (though not necessarily anti-punitive...but that's a different story:) ) It is so difficult to make any headway using this curriculum when the expectations of spanking (whooping, beating, etc) is so, so prevalent in the culture. And I'm in the midwest, not anywhere near the south...

I don't really have anything to add right now, but I'll definitely follow this thread to learn a few things :) I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to be a pro-GBD/attachment parent in the AA culture. :hug2

[Chaos Coordinator]

oh gosh, i dont have time to read the third page on this, i just wanted to add that i mentor a 13 yr old AA girl. she has not only used threatening posture with ds but also told him he was a bad bad baby. I told her gently that he's not bad, he's just being a baby. I also told her, firmly, that we dont hit. I left it at that simply. she does sometimes still giggle and say he's being bad but she seems much more relaxed around him now even when he's tantruming or something. I just used simple explanations and it seemed to make a big effect on her. I have seen her own mother be downright scary and honestly it made me want to turn around and throw up, but I kind of had to shrug it off knowing that its more of a cultural thing and that I couldn't report it to our case worker as much as I would love to because spanking and being threatening and punitive is not considered abuse unfortunately. But I am her mentor for a reason, so I just try to provide a better model.

The effect of punitive discipline is obvious, though. She is very quiet, does not feel comfortable asking for what she needs, and tries to manipulate. I've told her before, things like "If you want a smoothie just ask. You dont have to beat around the bush." with a friendly smile. but that is the sort of approach she takes to getting ANYTHING she wants or needs - she will say things like "Mmm those smoothies sure are good, wouldn't it be good if we had one right now? I sure would love a smoothie." unfortunately she does it so often that sometimes i just have to change the subject and sort of redirect her. it drives me crazy but i believe its the direct result of being intimidated and punished for expressing herself in a normal way.

i've also had AA co-workers tell me i was gettin a whoopin for not understanding something at work. at first i was alarmed because to me it is threatening and intimidation, but to them it was just a sort of joking thing. maybe it's a coping mechanism to help rationalize why it was done and why it continues being done. idk.

i have used the same line in farce with our youthgroup kids when someone makes an innocent mistake i'll say oh, XYZ gets a whoopin with a wink but they know i believe in gentle discipline and have seen me model it over and over and over with my own son, the kids in the nursery, and the youthgroup kids. i have also had more in-depth discussions with the older ones who are closer in age to me as to how punitive discipline, threatening, and controlling parents really affect children as they grow. my point of saying it in a joking way is to poke fun at the idea :) if i accidentally say it around someone who might not "get" it i'll make sure to add in a "just kidding, we dont hit." which again drives home the point that spanking = hitting.

[Danae]

Interesting thread. It so happens that the only other non-spanking mother I know IRL is AA (I'm white). My dad strongly disagrees with our decision not to spank and I was venting to her about it one day (because I knew she was of the same mind) and she empathized and said it's even worse in her family because not only are her parents very traditional but it's pretty much demanded in AA culture. She said basically you're considered a terrible parent who doesn't love your child if you choose not to spank.

I asked her how she had come to the decision not to spank. She's a child psychology major and said she just can't rationalize spanking when she's learned so much about child development and that spanking is ineffective.

I'm well-traveled and have lived in culturally diverse places all my life but I had no idea spanking was such a big thing in the AA community until that conversation with her.

[Rabbit]

I worked for four years in a school that was 90% black, 99% poverty stricken. It's normal. It's expected. It's violent. It's brutal. It's destructive. And it is no ticket out. Graduation stats are dismal. There are guns and drugs in the elementary schools. Babies die at jaw dropping rates. Violence and death are a way of life.

I lived for four more years in a ghetto apartment where I could hear my neighbors "loving" their children. The most worried, most concerned parents whip the hardest. It's normal. It's expected. It's violent. It's brutal. It's destructive. And their kids start conflict with the police as young as preschool. Never think for a second that it is a healthy, cultural thing, like eating bugs for protein. It is a symptom of a severely damaged, severely broken people, broken for countless generations, by many many sources.

It's hell. And when it's all you know, all you're used to, when you have no other picture of life without violence, it's accepted. Perfectly accepted. Good people, loving people, Christian people, live in it and perpetuate it. Stressed families wallow in it. It's still horrific.

Educated people have the experience to figure out that their treatment is abnormal and damaging. Insulated, uneducated, poverty dominated people don't.

[bananacake]

I asked a friend who is AA to read this thread. She's not a member here. She pointed out that the overwhelming majority of cultures in the world spank, and that the problem with parenting in the AA community is not about spanking or not spanking - it goes much deeper than that.

She explained it better than this, but it certainly gave me food for thought.

[Allison]

I asked a friend who is AA to read this thread. She's not a member here. She pointed out that the overwhelming majority of cultures in the world spank, and that the problem with parenting in the AA community is not about spanking or not spanking - it goes much deeper than that.

She explained it better than this, but it certainly gave me food for thought.
:yes
I agree that spanking is NOT the biggest issue or the reason why so many AA males end up in prison, or many AA families live in poverty, etc. Spanking is another symptom of a larger disease. In my husband's family there isn't anyone living in poverty by a long shot and there is no one in prison. They all live comfortable, college educated, middle class lives despite the spanking they all endured as children and then handed out to their own children. So, like in so very many families regardless of culture, there was a lot they did that was right regardless of the spanking. A child recieving spankings does not equal a child growing up with issues. In fact, I believe a child can survive spankings with no long term issues if other environmental factors are as they should be.

[Rabbit]

Are we seriously trying to defend spanking as a cultural norm?

[Allison]

Are we seriously trying to defend spanking as a cultural norm?

It *is* a cultural norm. Doesn't make it a healthy one. But spanking alone is not what creates dysfunction in a family or pathology in an individual or group of people. It's spanking along with other factors.

[bananacake]

Are we seriously trying to defend spanking as a cultural norm?

I don't believe spanking is mandated by the Bible, and I believe there are better ways to discipline my kids. As Allison sort of said, stating the truth is not the same as defending. I'm not defending it; I'm stating a truth.

[butterflyqueen71]

Rabbit, I get what you're saying, but I have to confess that this kind of rubbed me a little wrong:
It is a symptom of a severely damaged, severely broken people, broken for countless generations, by many many sources.

My initial reaction is that *I* don't think of AA's that way. Issues and hurt and pain, yeah, sure. But it does go WAY beyond spanking, and I don't think black folks are "damaged".

But I had to reread it several times to hear where you're coming from, so I will assign positive intent. ;)

Anyway, it is a cultural norm. It just is. It's normal among the culture, spanking is. I'm not defending it as right or wrong, I'm saying it is what it is, and trying to paint a picture of what I have to navigate on top of what is found in the "church culture". And to examine where it comes from.

And I think a big part of it is fear. Fear that one's son will grow up being one of the jail statistics, a drug addict, a hoodlum, or won't get an education, or will throw his life away.

Have you heard of the book "The Other Wes Moore"? It's a book about 2 black men with the same name, who grew up the same way, but one ended up a Rhodes Scholar and the other ended up a convicted murderer. Why did one "succeed" and the other "fail"? I saw this on Oprah, I'd be curious to read the book.

But I can tell you that the reasoning behind the "discipline" that you find in AA homes, especially homes with single black women raising boys, or even two parent homes with boys, is "No son of MINE is going to end up on a street corner, in jail, a thug, a hoodlum, a gangsta", etc., even if I have to "beat it out of you".

Many hopes and dreams of an entire generation, of an entire race, really, are channeled into young black men and women. And the grown folks will do what it takes to make sure they succeed.

That is the motive behind a lot of spanking. Not all of it. I'm sure some of it is just plain old frustration, bitterness, and deep seated anger, maybe not directed at the children specifically, but taken out on them. :( If not with a belt, you better believe with the tongue!

Not to excuse, but to explain. :shrug3

---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

I wanted to add that the same pressure exists for girls...no self respecting parent wants their daughter to grow up as some hootchie mama on a rap video, you know?

And link to the book mentioned: http://theotherwesmoore.com/

[Beth1231]

Definitely a food for thought thread. As Marielle touched on, I remember reading an article about how the paddle came about (on nospank.net I believe) and it was connected to slavery in the south. The paddle was specifically created for slaves according to that article :sick And the books I've read that are in the slavery time period left me with the impression that AA parents beat their children because 1. they were being beaten by their masters and 2. they wanted to teach their children to obey to avoid being beaten even more severely by white masters. :shiver The yelling, shaming etc seems to me a logical extension of the whipping, beating, etc that was such an everyday horrific thing in that time period.
Just my random thoughts, though. As others have said, there is way deeper stuff and more complicated factors all these years later that go into why the AA culture is more likely to spank.
I have developed a friendship with a woman my age with a daughter my age and she is AA and ftr she is finishing up her Associates in early childhood, works in a daycare.....and is totally GBD. I love chatting with her about the ideas I get here.

[KatieMae]

I saw very similar things to what B Hope mentioned at our local public school when Lucas was in speech therapy there. This school is vast majority AA and also a "failing" school. I honestly didn't understand why the teachers were being so harsh & - in my opinion - shaming towards the children. I susptected they were trying to make school a more serious, important place and so they attempted to have NO disorder. I guess that IS the intent, in a way... and I suppose most parents would be okay with the treatment their kids were receiving. I certainly wasn't. All I could think of was that this sort of treatment would make it understandble why so many kids (of all races) drop out as soon as they're able to rebel :(

This thread has really shed some light on it, thank you Kimberly!

[Rabbit]

Being a cultural norm doesn't make it healthy or right.

Having good intentions doesn't make it healthy, right, or effective.

I live and work in Memphis. Highest murder rate in the country, and it's mostly black males. Highest death rate in the country, for black children and their parents. It's horrific. Spanking doesn't cause it. Spanking seems at times to be a product of the problem, but also a factor that perpetuates a culture of violence.

Beating kids doesn't get them good grades. Doesn't keep them out of jail. Doesn't keep them out of gangs. Doesn't keep them off drugs. Doesn't do a thing for them except continue the life style they've always lived. Which here is as bad as it gets for AA families.

There's nothing different about black kids that means they need to be beaten in order to succeed. It's not resilience training.

While it's nice to hear that parents have their kids best intentions at heart, that's not unique to African American culture, or any particular type of spanker. It doesn't mean it's okay and healthy for these parents to whip their kids.

[butterflyqueen71]

But I don't think anybody *here* is saying it's right. :shrug3

The fact that it isn't right is a given. But it is something SO deeply entrenched in the culture, and I think it is wise to at least know where its coming from, to understand "why" people do what they do.

I took a course on poverty in my teaching days (A Framework for Understanding Poverty...awesome book, highly recommend) and it was a real eye opener at explaining "why" people in the very situations you mention behave the way they do. Really it goes beyond race; the root is socio economic standing in a society, which honestly may have more of a stigma attached to it than race.

You understand the "system"/culture so that you can better work within the system and have a part in, howbeit maybe a small part but no less powerful, in changing it for the better. Kinda like being a missionary.

That's it...I'll be a missionary for GBD in the AA community! :shifty :grin

[Rabbit]

It's a given, though, that every parent disciplines because they want their children to grow up to be self disciplined adults. There are sadistically abusive families where parents delight in torturing their children. There are families where children are casually assaulted because they have no value.

But for the most part, every parent who bothers to discipline does it because they love their children, and are convinced that this discipline will save them from what their parents fear most.

[Danae]

The fact that it isn't right is a given. But it is something SO deeply entrenched in the culture, and I think it is wise to at least know where its coming from, to understand "why" people do what they do.

This makes total sense to me. :yes It reminds me of an article I read about female genital mutilation. In the western world we are horrified by the practice (and rightfully so), but the cultural reasons for it in the societies that practice it are very complex, and the ramifications of abolishing it are far-reaching. Say, for example, a mother decides she does not want this for her daughter and refuses to allow her to be circumcised -- the daughter will be unmarriageable in that society, an unbearable choice that means social ostracism and a further descent into poverty. Education alone won't fix a problem like that -- you have to have cultural/societal changes in the many issues surrounding the practice. Understanding the obstacles and having empathy for those entrenched in the culture doesn't mean one is defending the practice.

[saturnfire16]

It's a given, though, that every parent disciplines because they want their children to grow up to be self disciplined adults. There are sadistically abusive families where parents delight in torturing their children. There are families where children are casually assaulted because they have no value.

But for the most part, every parent who bothers to discipline does it because they love their children, and are convinced that this discipline will save them from what their parents fear most.

This is what I have been thinking this whole thread. Isn't this why many Christians spank their kids? To save them from hell. Isn't this why many white people spank their kids? So, they won't do all the "bad" things they are afraid of. Now I do see and understand how it would be *more* prevelant in AA communities to have greater fear surrounding kids turning into drug dealers, going to jail, etc. because that is a larger reality in those communities than it is for many middle class white people. But when it comes down to it, most people are spanking out of fear, whatever their particular fear might be, and a desire for their children to grow up to be law abiding, productive people.

[michelle]

[Anyway, this job called for me to reach into realms of my heritage that I had not had the need to call upon before. :giggle In other words, I had to get what to me felt rather mean with my kids. It was honestly the only way I could gain their respect and their compliance with what I asked them to do. You couldn't hardly get anywhere with them unless you were talking smack to them. :shrug3 It was culture shock to me at first, but I guess "it's in my blood" and after awhile I guess I started to fit in. :giggle

Well, evidently I didn't know how to shut it off once I got home b/c my poor white dh couldn't believe the way I was talking to him. :jawdrop It caused a lot of problems between us, because I was like "what are you talking about?" But then it dawned on me...and I know this had to be the Holy Spirit that made this known to me...is that it was a cultural thing. :doh Dh was not used to seeing me in "neckroll" mode (sorry, I don't know how else to describe it :O) and it was a shock for him.

Well, I quit that job and resumed back to my "normal" self, and not only was my level of stress relieved (it was an extremely stressful job) but things b/w dh and I got better too. :heart





Neckroll great adjective:roll:roll
My dh and I joke about this, he grew up around AA and hispanics.

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Rabbit;3163101]I worked for four years in a school that was 90% black, 99% poverty stricken. It's normal. It's expected. It's violent. It's brutal. It's destructive. And it is no ticket out. Graduation stats are dismal. There are guns and drugs in the elementary schools. Babies die at jaw dropping rates. Violence and death are a way of life.

I lived for four more years in a ghetto apartment where I could hear my neighbors "loving" their children. The most worried, most concerned parents whip the hardest. It's normal. It's expected. It's violent. It's brutal. It's destructive. And their kids start conflict with the police as young as preschool. Never think for a second that it is a healthy, cultural thing, like eating bugs for protein. It is a symptom of a severely damaged, severely broken people, broken for countless generations, by many many sources.





This sums it up for me, this is what I have observed to be quite true and sad. Spanking is used to make the children good but it actually has the opposite effect.