Am I being judgemental?

[GranolanRainbows]

Please excuse me if I'm posting this in the wrong forum and please feel free to move it if needed. I really need some direction here from like-minded, Christian sisters. I'll try to be as brief as possible...
I am like many GCM mamas in that I am the only one of my friends believing in Gentle Discipline. I honestly didn't set out to be this way, but it was something that I found to be "natural" and "right" (for my family) as I began parenting. I nurse(d) my babes on demand, wore/wear them, don't spank, try not to yell and try to help them understand their feelings. I also try to be open to new ideas, but I'm pretty aware of what doesn't work for us at this point.
M is a Christian friend that I have known for years. I was so excited when she got pregnant right after Little D was born and we talked often about how fun it would be raising our girls together. After her LO was born, it became clear that we were very different in our approaches. She listened to the Prep for Parenting tapes and was intent on getting her LO on a schedule. I had no idea who Ezzo was at the time and once I did some research, I found that I didn’t get any warm fuzzies from him or his philosophy. For the first five months of her life, her daughter was tightly swaddled in a blanket with a pacifier in her mouth (the blanket over her mouth and holding it in) unless she was nursing or being changed. Once she was strong enough to free herself from the blanket during naps or at night, she would lose the pacifier and cry. My friend grew tired of getting up at night to help her and decided to let her cry. "She cried for four hours, but then she found her thumb!" my friend exclaimed in joy. "It was hard, but I just kept telling my DH that we're the parents and we're in charge, and we got through it." I was stunned. She told the story to everyone who would listen as an example of a method that "worked". It made me sick inside. We went to their house for a 4th of July party where her daughter cried upstairs for a 30 minutes before another friend rescued her.
A few months ago, she spanked her LO in front of me and DD. Again, I was floored. It was so odd to see this friend that I knew and loved hit her own child. And I had no idea how to explain it to my own child. I asked M if she would mind taking her daughter into another room in the future if she needed to spank her. Then I realized that this was ridiculous and apologized and said that I could remove myself and DD if the situation arose again. She declared me a “too sensitive” person who was “making mountains out of molehills” and we had a period of some tension. Now, she has just told me that she is pregnant again and I feeling ill at the thought of going through this with her once again. Part of me says that I should continue to be in her life and model more grace-based discipline, but another part of me thinks that maybe we should just be friends again when our kids are in college. I don’t know what to do…

[MarynMunchkins]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with judging the choices someone makes. I didn't see you judge her as horrible mother - you disagree with how she's parenting.

If you need to step back and take a break, do it. You don't have to be salt and light to everyone all the time. :hug

[YolandaWELS]

I agree with "if you need to step back and take a break, do it"

I also think you'll always come across parents who discipline their child like your friend. I think you have the heart and are convicted enough to lead her by example. Show her what you know.

If it wasn't for someone showing and telling me ......

Forgive your friend - Sounds like she needs some lovin' as well. My friend thinks I'm way too compassionate.... until she saw my daughter drop her icecream cone and run to her daughter's side when she fell down... My daughter hugged her daughter and said "Its ok that it hurts - You can cry, I'll hold you.".... I've witnessed her communicating to her daughter differently..babysteps :)

[Serafine]

My friend thinks I'm way too compassionate.... until she saw my daughter drop her icecream cone and run to her daughter's side when she fell down... My daughter hugged her daughter and said "Its ok that it hurts - You can cry, I'll hold you.".... I've witnessed her communicating to her daughter differently..babysteps :)

:heart :happytears

I have friends who spank, but we have had a frank discussion about hte fact that it can never occur in my home, and that we will leave and not return ever if they do it in our presence.

We are still great friends.

That being said, if my friend had said to me what yours did, I don't know that I would remain friends with her. :shrug

Have you ever told her that you understand that you are in disagreement about the way you parent, but that you care for her and want to maintain the friendship? That in order for you to maintain it, you don't want you or your children exposed to CIO or hitting.

Surely she can use other tools besides spanking and CIO for the short periods of time you are together? Even my Tripp/Pearl friends do that for the sake of our friendship.

[GranolanRainbows]

:heart :happytears

I have friends who spank, but we have had a frank discussion about hte fact that it can never occur in my home, and that we will leave and not return ever if they do it in our presence.

We are still great friends.

That being said, if my friend had said to me what yours did, I don't know that I would remain friends with her. :shrug

Have you ever told her that you understand that you are in disagreement about the way you parent, but that you care for her and want to maintain the friendship? That in order for you to maintain it, you don't want you or your children exposed to CIO or hitting.

Surely she can use other tools besides spanking and CIO for the short periods of time you are together? Even my Tripp/Pearl friends do that for the sake of our friendship.

We've had a couple talks. She said she could try to not spank her dd in my presence, but "what if she ran out in front of a car? Then I would have to." :hunh
I have told her that I care for her, etc, but I am not sure she believes me anymore.
Did your friends challenge you when you asked them not to spank in front of you?

---------- Post added at 07:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

Forgive your friend - Sounds like she needs some lovin' as well. My friend thinks I'm way too compassionate.... until she saw my daughter drop her icecream cone and run to her daughter's side when she fell down... My daughter hugged her daughter and said "Its ok that it hurts - You can cry, I'll hold you.".... I've witnessed her communicating to her daughter differently..babysteps :)

I :heart this! You must have been so proud of her!

[Serafine]

IT went down like this:

Me: I know that we have very different views on corporal punishment. I really care about you as a friend, but I also have to be consistent in what I teach my children. I am sure you understand.

I don't allow spanking in my home at all. And if you spank or threaten to spank in front of my children, I will be put in the position of telling my kids that what you are doing is wrong (since that is what we teach them).

I really, really don't want to have to say something like that about you to my kids, so I would really appreciate if you could use some of your other parenting tools when we are together. I totally understand if this means that our time together will be limited. Either way, I do care about you and will have no hard feelings whatever you decide.

Her: Let me think about it.

Later, she said she wanted to try it out, and realized that she didn't need to spank or threaten when I was around (and these are people who have a wooden spoon above every doorway in their house for easy access/reminders. :sick)

[GranolanRainbows]

IT went down like this:

Me: I know that we have very different views on corporal punishment. I really care about you as a friend, but I also have to be consistent in what I teach my children. I am sure you understand.

I don't allow spanking in my home at all. And if you spank or threaten to spank in front of my children, I will be put in the position of telling my kids that what you are doing is wrong (since that is what we teach them).

I really, really don't want to have to say something like that about you to my kids, so I would really appreciate if you could use some of your other parenting tools when we are together. I totally understand if this means that our time together will be limited. Either way, I do care about you and will have no hard feelings whatever you decide.

Her: Let me think about it.

Later, she said she wanted to try it out, and realized that she didn't need to spank or threaten when I was around (and these are people who have a wooden spoon above every doorway in their house for easy access/reminders. :sick)

:clap I like this.

[ArmsOfLove]

you did not owe her an apology for asking her to respect your boundary about not wanting your dd to witness her hitting dd's friend/her dd. that can be very traumatic for children. You are not being too sensitive or judgmental and if you end the friendship I would end it based on whether or not she is willing to respect your different approach and your boundaries as much as you have extended respect to her :hugheart

[amyhntr2]

IT went down like this:

Me: I know that we have very different views on corporal punishment. I really care about you as a friend, but I also have to be consistent in what I teach my children. I am sure you understand.

I don't allow spanking in my home at all. And if you spank or threaten to spank in front of my children, I will be put in the position of telling my kids that what you are doing is wrong (since that is what we teach them).

I really, really don't want to have to say something like that about you to my kids, so I would really appreciate if you could use some of your other parenting tools when we are together. I totally understand if this means that our time together will be limited. Either way, I do care about you and will have no hard feelings whatever you decide.

Her: Let me think about it.

Later, she said she wanted to try it out, and realized that she didn't need to spank or threaten when I was around (and these are people who have a wooden spoon above every doorway in their house for easy access/reminders. :sick)

I really like the way you laid that out. What age was/were your children when you felt it was necessary to put up this boundry to protect them from this type of exposure? Or did that not play a part in your decision at all?

[GranolanRainbows]

you did not owe her an apology for asking her to respect your boundary about not wanting your dd to witness her hitting dd's friend/her dd. that can be very traumatic for children. You are not being too sensitive or judgmental and if you end the friendship I would end it based on whether or not she is willing to respect your different approach and your boundaries as much as you have extended respect to her :hugheart

Thanks, mama. I apologized because, after some time to think and pray, I felt that I was in essence asking her to parent my child by not spanking her LO in front of us. I decided to be more proactive and remove Little D from the situation myself. At the time I thought that this would take the burden off of my friend. Of course, in retrospect, I see it as one more example of how I try to make everyone happy in a situation and end up failing miserably. As much as I believe strongly in GBD, I find that I still feel apologetic for my support of it, because of my own harsh upbringing.

[ArmsOfLove]

I am a very strong ENFP and I am still realizing how often I accomodate others at the expense of myself and too often my family :( I'm learning to not do that in more and more areas. NEVER apologize for protecting your child :heart

[Country Bumpkin]

IT went down like this:

Me: I know that we have very different views on corporal punishment. I really care about you as a friend, but I also have to be consistent in what I teach my children. I am sure you understand.

I don't allow spanking in my home at all. And if you spank or threaten to spank in front of my children, I will be put in the position of telling my kids that what you are doing is wrong (since that is what we teach them).

I really, really don't want to have to say something like that about you to my kids, so I would really appreciate if you could use some of your other parenting tools when we are together. I totally understand if this means that our time together will be limited. Either way, I do care about you and will have no hard feelings whatever you decide.



I think I need to memorize this. :yes

[Serafine]

I really like the way you laid that out. What age was/were your children when you felt it was necessary to put up this boundry to protect them from this type of exposure? Or did that not play a part in your decision at all?

That particular friend and I met when my oldest was 2 and my (at the time) youngest was almost 6 months.

It didn't really play into my decision making at all, really. It was a boundary that has been set for my children since before we had them.

[Striving4Grace]

Not to open a can of worms, but is she *spanking* the child in front of you or was it a pop on the rear used more as punctuation rather than painful punishment. Not that I am justifying it but in the world of spanking there *is* a difference. A spanking should never, ever be done in the presence of another person :td and I have never, ever seen it suggested otherwise. In this case you don't need to make it about corporal punishment vs GBD because even those who advocate spanking say it should be carried out in private. ETA: this *could be sensitive so I'm spoiler tagging it: the difference that is generally accepted between a "pop" and a spanking is that a "pop" is one or two swats with a hand or implement where as a spanking is a full blown over the knee beating.

If they have the spoons above the doors as a reminder and for easy access they are influenced by the Pearls, it's recommended in their books. :(

You know had I seen how effective GBD can be I doubt that I would have spanked like I did. Really, I am SO much stricter now and my kids toe the line so much better now that the threat of pain is removed from the equation. Hopefully your friend will see it too and even if she never totally ditches spanking hopefully she will learn tools from you to decrease them. :pray4

[Serafine]

S4G - I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. While the Pearl's definitely have an extreme definition of spanking...there are plenty (probably most) who consider a pop on the rear to be a spanking.

And no, not all spanking advocates believe in doing it in private. AND, I don't care if it is done in private...I will NOT have it around my children in any way, shape, or form without telling my kids it is WRONG and unBiblical, PERIOD.

---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------

Oh, and yes, my friend absolutely is influenced by the Pearl's...but they are interestingly the "take what you can that you agree with and leave the rest" kind-of people. (which is not common amongst Pearlites).

I have seen HUGE changes in their parenting since they have hung out with us...they are still spankers, which makes me sad, but they are much LESS than they used to be.

[amyhntr2]

That particular friend and I met when my oldest was 2 and my (at the time) youngest was almost 6 months.

It didn't really play into my decision making at all, really. It was a boundary that has been set for my children since before we had them.

Thank you. I was just curious how people felt about that because my extended family spank and I never brought it up with them while learning about GBD. Now I'm wondering how to make that transition from not being phased by it to not agreeing with it without a big confrontation or hurt feelings. Thanks for this thread. You all have some great ideas.

[Striving4Grace]

I wasn't trying to define spanking for you just stating that the majority of people who find corporal punishment acceptable wouldn't think it unacceptable to give a kid a pop in public situations. Trying to assign a more positive intent to your friend. You may certainly consider it a spanking and that is of course your right and I wasn't attempting to suggest otherwise.

May I just ask though that if you do decide to pursue a relationship with your friend and she takes her child into the bathroom why you would feel the need to point out what is going on to your child?


Oh, and yes, my friend absolutely is influenced by the Pearl's...but they are interestingly the "take what you can that you agree with and leave the rest" kind-of people. (which is not common amongst Pearlites).

I have seen HUGE changes in their parenting since they have hung out with us...they are still spankers, which makes me sad, but they are much LESS than they used to be.

That is very encouraging that they are not sucked in hook, line and sinker. :)

[Serafine]

May I just ask though that if you do decide to pursue a relationship with your friend and she takes her child into the bathroom why you would feel the need to point out what is going on to your child?


This is all incredibly hypothetical, considering my spanking friends (not just her) have respected my boudaries, and wouldn't be sneaky about it. ;)

If I thought they were spanking their child (i.e. heard it, she takes them right after an "incident" that would need discipline, or the kids comes out crying), I would flat-out ask.

If they did it after we had already discussed it, the friendship would be over until they could straighten up and respect the boundary. IF the convo. hadn't happened yet, that is when it would happen.

If I have a boundary that kids will NOT be hit (in any way, shape, form, or otherwise) in the vicinity of my kids...then I WILL do whatever it takes to protect my boundary.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

I wasn't trying to define spanking for you just stating that the majority of people who find corporal punishment acceptable wouldn't think it unacceptable to give a kid a pop in public situations.

And I am saying this is not true. The MAJORITY of people who are against corporal punishment are against the spanking you defined, as well as pops, smacks on the hand, etc.

There are only a very select group of fundamentalist christian groups who would define it differently (which is what you came out of, so I understand your point).