S/O Is it permissive to comfort

[Ellen]

a child when they are having a strong reaction to your discipline / boundary?

This came up in another thread and it was something I hadn't really thought much about before.

[afternoonrain]

deleted

[Aisling]

Not at all. Comforting helps a child learn how to deal with their own big reactions and move on, and to do so with resolution. Not permissive at all, as long as you don't compromise the boundary you set. This is an excellent way to foster healthy relationship with your child. :hug

[duckwithoneleg]

deleted! :O

[Raspberries]

I think reflecting and validating during boundary setting is a form of comforting and important. So if my child is upset because its time for bed I can comfort them by letting them know that I understand its frustrating and reflect what they may be feeling about it without removing the boundary. So, they're expressing their big feelings, I'm reflecting (comforting) and boundary remains. Just my 2 cents.

[Aisling]

I actually doubt this will become terribly heated, honestly. :heart

I actually believe that any withholding of love or affection from a child in order to make a point is a very punitive approach to parenting. The goal of GD is to connect, then correct, not to make people feel badly in order to make a point stick, so comforting and coming alongside children to assist them with their big feelings is absolutely in keeping with the heart of grace based parenting. :heart The idea is that relationship (the thing that gives our authority and example it's great influence) is more important than behavior. In order to get at the heart of a behavior, it's imperative to keep relationally connected to your child, even while firmly upholding a boundary.

[toastedsalmon]

I think reflecting and validating during boundary setting is a form of comforting and important. So if my child is upset because its time for bed I can comfort them by letting them know that I understand its frustrating and reflect what they may be feeling about it without removing the boundary. So, they're expressing their big feelings, I'm reflecting (comforting) and boundary remains. Just my 2 cents.

will you give an example of how this plays out? Sometimes I find myself feeling manipulated by the bedtime issue, because if I take time to deal w/ the big feelings, it means we stop moving forward toward bedtime, which accomplishes dd's goal of not going to bed yet... kwim? an example conversation and keeping of boundary would be helpful.

[Aisling]

will you give an example of how this plays out? Sometimes I find myself feeling manipulated by the bedtime issue, because if I take time to deal w/ the big feelings, it means we stop moving forward toward bedtime, which accomplishes dd's goal of not going to bed yet... kwim? an example conversation and keeping of boundary would be helpful.

We deal with this, too. :hug Could you flesh out how big feelings stop your dd from physically being in bed? :think

[homesteadmama]

I struggle with this ALL the time! I think I gravitate toward punitiveness, and have to fight it. These ideas are encouraging. I want to put the relationship before the behavior. I have a lot to learn.

:popcorn

[Raspberries]

will you give an example of how this plays out? Sometimes I find myself feeling manipulated by the bedtime issue, because if I take time to deal w/ the big feelings, it means we stop moving forward toward bedtime, which accomplishes dd's goal of not going to bed yet... kwim? an example conversation and keeping of boundary would be helpful.
Sure thing:

Me: Ok DD1, we've read our bedtime books and its time to turn off the light and go to bed.

DD1: *starting to cry* But I want to go out to the living rooooom.

Me: I understand. You want to be where Mom and Dad are, but its bedtime and we need rest to stay healthy and strong. *turns off light*

DD1: But I'll MISS DADDY! (she usually says the parent opposite of who is putting her to bed)

Me: Yes its nice to be able to snuggle both mommy and daddy at bedtime. Lets say a prayer and thank God for Daddy.

DD1 *says prayer* *sniffling a bit still* *light is off*

Me: Goodnight, love you *puts arm around to snuggle*.

Now that may go on longer. I was just giving an example of what I say in response.

ETA: Keep in mind that we have a nighttime routine so bedtime is not sprung upon her. I read her the books *in* bed so there isn't a battle to the bedroom. I get up and shut the lights off and I do snuggle her to sleep (well her and her sister) while DH takes the baby or vice versa.

[Aisling]

Sure thing:

Me: Ok DD1, we've read our bedtime books and its time to turn off the light and go to bed.

DD1: *starting to cry* But I want to go out to the living rooooom.

Me: I understand. You want to be where Mom and Dad are, but its bedtime and we need rest to stay healthy and strong. *turns off light*

DD1: But I'll MISS DADDY! (she usually says the parent opposite of who is putting her to bed)

Me: Yes its nice to be able to snuggle both mommy and daddy at bedtime. Lets say a prayer and thank God for Daddy.

DD1 *says prayer* *sniffling a bit still* *light is off*

Me: Goodnight, love you *puts arm around to snuggle*.

Now that may go on longer. I was just giving an example of what I say in response.

:tu This kind of reflecting has been a great tool here at our house, too! This is acknowledging the child's feelings, reflecting sympathy, and acknowledging and reminding that the boundary still stands. :rockon

It's good to keep in mind that big feelings will happen, and that's FINE. Feelings just are, and we don't need to take personal offense at them or view them as an insult to our authority...this frees us up to react with firmness *and* empathy, like Raspberries just scripted out. :cool:heart

It helps me a lot, too, to remember that while I'm reflecting and empathizing, I don't have to emotionally "go there" with my child with their same level of intensity to be a comforting parent. Being comforting doesn't mean that I ride the roller coaster of big feelings with them all day long; as a matter of fact, I need to display patient calm and peace (and allow myself to not get rattled every time they do) in order for them to have a lead to follow, so they can find their way back to emotional equilibrium. :heart

[toastedsalmon]

We deal with this, too. :hug Could you flesh out how big feelings stop your dd from physically being in bed? :think
at times, she literally leaves.

we have a routine, but some nights it seems that at each step there's a battle. Time to clean up dinner -- "but I don't WANT to!!"; time to move to the bathroom -- "but I don't WANT to!" w/ stomping and crying; let's go potty -- "BUT I DON"T HAVE ANY PEE PEES!!!" and so on, w/ brushing teeth, brushing hair, putting on pjs, getting in bed, reading, ending reading, nursing, ending nursing, lights out, sleeping. At various times she runs away back to the great room, at other times she throws herself on the bed flailing all limbs and really expressing those big feelings. This isn't every night, but when it does happen, I struggle w/ how much obedience to enforce vs how much to hear her out and let her have choices (because I feel like developmentally she just needs to be able to say no a lot lately) and how to help her express her emotions/needs in a polite/socially acceptable way.

And she may be physically in bed, but we all sleep there, so if she's screaming her lungs out, then ds isn't sleeping, nor is anyone else...

I will say a lot of times the reflecting and acknowledging feelings does diffuse things a little, so when she says she doesn't want to do something, I'll say, "I know, I wish we didn't have to do x either" while we're doing it, and that seems to take a lot of the wind out of the storm for her.

[Katigre]

I think there are ways to comfort that are helpful and ways to comfort that, while not permissive, do not represent good emotional coaching on the part of the parent. Dealing with Disappointment talks about this a bit and I think it is a very helpful resource.

Part of parenting is helping our children learn how to manage their big feelings - ignoring them or telling them not to have them is not helpful in that regard :no. But neither is entering so fully into their emotional reactions that our kids think their feelings are controlling us. Have you ever seen a parent become despserate to calm their child down - almost anxious/frantic - because THEY (the parent) doesn't know how to handle big feelings? They feel responsible for them and must get rid of them as soon as possible. That isn't a healthy approach.

Better to remain a bit outside the situation - so you comfort your child, you talk them through it, you point them to coping tools for calming down. But you're never consumed or overwhelmed by what they're expressing (because otherwise that makes the child responsible for your feelings as well as their own which is too big of a burden for a little one).

:)

[Raspberries]

For my DD1 when she is having big feelings that involve screaming or crying I coach her on using her words. So when she's screaming, I tell her, "I'd like to better understand how you feel right now. Can you use your words?" If she can, she will. If she can't I'll help to coach her on what she might be feeling. Engaging her in the process of understanding why she is feeling that way can help to calm the crying.

So for example -

Me: Alright, time to clean up these toys.

DD1: *Meltdown* I caaaaaan't!

Me: I can't understand you when you scream. Try again.

DD1: I don't want to pick up!!!

Me: You seem overwhelmed by the mess.

DD1: Yes, its a big mess!!

Me: Okay, lets start by just picking up the dolls.

Or I might go the more playful route and say, "Lets see who can pick up *Just* the blocks the fastest!"

It also helps if I get the mess contained before it gets to a level of feeling overwhelming. Asking her more often to put something away before she gets something else out. There might sill be fussing and crying. I just do the best I can to coach her through it. Please don't think I'm saying, Well *I* can do this, and my daughter reacts so well. This is the ideal I strive for. I fail. I struggle. She does too. Its okay.

[Aisling]

I can't help but notice that your dd is only 2.5. :heart There's a HUGE learning curve in the early years, and at that age, I do a lot of picking them up, literally carrying them through the motions of what I'd like them to do, and *only* giving one very simple instruction to follow. I do this firmly, but in a very gentle way. I literally pick them up, go through the motions, and narrate what we're doing as we do it.

Sometimes, if they're way too tired or way too hungry to even see straight to pick up any toys, I let it go. You have years and years to teach follow-through, but in the toddler years, I don't force it unless I know they're in a place where they're going to be successful. Two is really still such a baby, mama. :heart If it's a case of feeling overwhelmed by the huge job, I do some preventative work and separate toys into small bins and only get down one bin at a time, so the sheer amount of instruction doesn't wear us BOTH out. :giggle Then, I pick her up, walk to the stuffed duck and say, "Now, let's pick up the duck and put him in the bin!" Then, do it, regardless of reaction. :heart

Playful parenting is also great for these moments.

Expecting my 2.5 yo to carry out any instruction once she's already tired is a complete exercise in futility. :hug At that point, I take over what she's literally lost the ability to do, and hold her with both of us in the bed, softly repeat over and over "Bedtime is for sleeping" and sing a song to her, regardless of how she's reacting. It doesn't matter if she doesn't want to, she's lost all ability to make a wise decision and reinforce it for herself because she lacks the maturity to do so. I do it for her. :)

ETA: You're right, "No!" is a huge 2.5 thing, and you're a wise mama to recognize that it's a developmental necessity. The trick is to offer her a couple of choices that you're totally OK with...whichever she choses is already honestly OK with you. Be warned, though, that there are points at the 2yo year where choice making can overwhelm them because they're literally incapable of making a decision, and you'll just need to say, "Here, let me help you. Here's the limit." I've found this especially true when they're tired. :hug

What I'm also hearing is that setting your dd's bedtime back a notch (maybe 30min!) might help all of you immensely. That way, if she's really loud, it doesn't effect everyone else's sleep...and also, a lot of her reactions at this point sound like a really overtired little girl to me. Mine tend to have a window of opportunity where they'll go to sleep somewhat peacefully (they might cry or protest, but not thrash for half an hour :giggle Trust me, we've had our share of thrashing, though these days, it's not an issue:phew), but if you pass it, it's a much bigger ordeal.

Does she have a consistent bedtime that could be bumped back a bit?

[Raspberries]

I can't help but notice that your dd is only 2.5. :heart There's a HUGE learning curve in the early years, and at that age, I do a lot of picking them up, literally carrying them through the motions of what I'd like them to do, and *only* giving one very simple instruction to follow.

Expecting my 2.5 yo to carry out any instruction once she's already tired is a complete exercise in futility. :hug At that point, I take over what she's literally lost the ability to do, and hold her with both of us in the bed, softly repeat over and over "Bedtime is for sleeping" and sing a song to her, regardless of how she's reacting. It doesn't matter if she doesn't want to, she's lost all ability to make a wise decision and reinforce it for herself because she lacks the maturity to do so. I do it for her. :)
Absolutely. If you notice my scripts that I'm sharing I'm using with my almost 5 year old. With my two year old, I still script feelings, but so much of what I do is hands on physical movement during requests. So she may be screaming and crying and I'm reflecting, but I'm also picking her up and moving her to bed, etc.

[Aisling]

Absolutely. If you notice my scripts that I'm sharing I'm using with my almost 5 year old. With my two year old, I still script feelings, but so much of what I do is hands on physical movement during requests. So she may be screaming and crying and I'm reflecting, but I'm also picking her up and moving her to bed, etc.
:yes And, believe it or not, they don't stay in the "tote them around while you instruct" phase forever! :phew:giggle

When she's rested, my 5yo can carry out complex instructions without supervision these days. WOW, is it a difference, just with a few years!

[Raspberries]

:yes And, believe it or not, they don't stay in the "tote them around while you instruct" phase forever! :phew:giggle

When she's rested, my 5yo can carry out complex instructions without supervision these days. WOW, is it a difference, just with a few years!
Its probably why the first two years of parenting a child always conjure up images of me sweating :lol. Lots of physical hands on movement, slinging, carrying, etc. :giggle

[raining_kisses]

this was so helpful...i think it should be a sticky. thanks wise mamas!

[toastedsalmon]

I can't tell you how helpful it is to hear that this is just normal, age appropriate stuff.:ty4

When I do the carrying her through the motions thing, I sometimes am already very frustrated and am feeling punitive, like this is my way of punishing her. "if you won't do it, then I'll do it for you, so there!" But it sounds like just recognizing her abilities and inabilities and not making it a punishment (having the right frame of mind) might be something that helps me be less frustrated, which would in turn help me help her without getting tangled up in the emotional roller coaster.

Part of parenting is helping our children learn how to manage their big feelings - ignoring them or telling them not to have them is not helpful in that regard . But neither is entering so fully into their emotional reactions that our kids think their feelings are controlling us. Have you ever seen a parent become despserate to calm their child down - almost anxious/frantic - because THEY (the parent) doesn't know how to handle big feelings? They feel responsible for them and must get rid of them as soon as possible. That isn't a healthy approach. this is me, on our bad days. So much is wrapped up in the dichotomy of wanting to be a "good parent" in terms of not letting my child act a certain way, and wanting to actually be a good parent in terms of raising a healthy child, that I feel torn about what a healthy expression of big feelings looks like, for my child AND for me. We're both learning this at the same time. Lots of grace needed, lots of realizing this is exactly what Jesus died for.

And yes, I do think dd needs more sleep. She doesn't nap regularly, and hasn't since hitting age 2. When she does nap, she doesn't sleep well at night, but when she doesn't nap, the end of the day can be difficult. I haven't found a good way to get her an adequate amount of sleep in the form of a regular routine, but she seems to "catch up" by taking a nap every now and then and regularly goes to bed between 7-8pm and sleeps 12-13hrs at night. (not without waking, but she goes back to sleep easily when she wakes, as long as she hasn't had a nap)

[Joanne]

Yes, I think it can be permissive if you comfort their response to discipline. I think this is especially the case when a child runs to one parent for comfort when the other has given a boundary\enforced a rule.

I also observe that many kids who tend to need or crave that kind of comfort need emotional "scaling" and imposed limits on over-emotion. I have also found many cases of "I know you are sad but you need to _______ because _______" turns into giving the child details on which to argue.

My kids can feel however they feel about a boundary. I won't punish for it, but I also won't rescue them from it.
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[Aisling]

Yes, I think it can be permissive if you comfort their response to discipline. I think this is especially the case when a child runs to one parent for comfort when the other has given a boundary\enforced a rule.

I also observe that many kids who tend to need or crave that kind of comfort need emotional "scaling" and imposed limits on over-emotion. I have also found many cases of "I know you are sad but you need to _______ because _______" turns into giving the child details on which to argue.

My kids can feel however they feel about a boundary. I won't punish for it, but I also won't rescue them from it.
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I absolutely agree that it can be, however, I don't think that this can be a healthy blanket statement. There's "comforting" ("Oh, no!! You're SAD! Well, here, let's compromise, just don't cry, OK? Poor thing!!") and then there's comforting ("It's hard to not get our way sometimes, you're right. *hug* I can help you get unstuck and move on to the next thing, if you need me to.") I don't think inconsistency between parents is ever a good thing, but I don't think it's always or necessarily related to comforting big reactions to boundaries. I've seen this dynamic before, for sure, I just think that's a separate can of worms. :think

There's a difference between comforting and accommodating, IMO. In a toddler, there's a marked difference. With my 5yo, I'm more likely to let her try and sort it out before I offer to help her find alternatives to whatever she's doing that's not working.

[bananacake]

I think there are ways to comfort that are helpful and ways to comfort that, while not permissive, do not represent good emotional coaching on the part of the parent. Dealing with Disappointment talks about this a bit and I think it is a very helpful resource.

I appreciate this perspective. DS1 always has a big emotional response to discipline, especially the "you hit, you sit" chair. Usually it's "help, help, help!" or "I need huggles!!", looking for reassurance of my love. I know some would say it's manipulation :shrug I generally tell him he doesn't need help/huggles to sit in the chair for a minute while he calms down. Then we talk about why he's in the chair. I do reassure him frequently that I still love him even though I discipline him.

Some times he reacts with shame by hiding or covering his face in a particular way. He often does this when I tell him not to do something even though I'm not disciplining him. Anyway, I appreciate all the perspectives shared.

[Aisling]

Dh and I decided long ago...so WHAT if a child is doing something for attention? I often hear "just for attention" expressed as if needing attention is a BAD thing.

If they need attention, they need it, period. Their expression of need may be immature, but that's par for the course with a small child. If they ask for a needed meal inappropriately, we don't refuse to feed them just because they were rude and/or immature. For relational children, interaction or physical reassurance/feedback is every bit as much of a need as food, water and sleep.

The withholding of attention or comfort for a very small child in order to make a point about what you shouldn't/cannot do is every bit as punitive as refusing to feed a child because they yelled, "Feed me now!!"

If they ask for it or demand it in an inappropriate way, sure, script them, correct them, ask them to try again, and model the heck out of how to request it kindly and with respect. But punishing a toddler by insisting that they get no comfort until they've learned their lesson is honestly just punitive parenting in disguise, IMO.

I have one child in particular that, when she was 2-3, if I stuck her by herself after poor behavior as part of "correction" and refused to comfort her, she'd become SO beside herself that it was impossible for her to even internalize what I was trying to teach her. If I sat with her, while not condoning her actions, she'd talk it out with me in my lap until the desired behavior stuck:

"No hitting Nomi. Hitting hurts Nomi?" "Yes, hitting hurts Nomi. Ouch!" "Nomi cries if I hit her. Nomi loves me." "Yes, and you love Nomi. Hitting is not loving." "Wasp stings hurt Essie. Hitting hurts Nomi." "Yes, both those things hurt. Hurting others is not kind." "WASPS aren't kind." "No, wasps aren't kind." "Can I hug Nomi?" And so forth.

If I left her alone to make a point, Nomi, hitting, hurting, hugging, amends....ALL lost in the freakout that came from being left alone or away from my lap.
It's a different story as they grow older, because they have more tools for self-calming at their disposal by then (assuming that we've physically been there guiding/comforting/scripting them in their very young years!). But for wee ones, neglecting to give them the comfort that they need to get unstuck and move on, on a regular basis as a rule, is punitive. :shrug3

Stepping away to cool off for the sake of the toddler, or to gather your own wits and sanity about you is different than having a strict no comforting a completely out of sorts child rule. :think

[homesteadmama]

Yes, I think it can be permissive if you comfort their response to discipline. I think this is especially the case when a child runs to one parent for comfort when the other has given a boundary\enforced a rule.

I also observe that many kids who tend to need or crave that kind of comfort need emotional "scaling" and imposed limits on over-emotion. I have also found many cases of "I know you are sad but you need to _______ because _______" turns into giving the child details on which to argue.

My kids can feel however they feel about a boundary. I won't punish for it, but I also won't rescue them from it.
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What if both parents are enforcing the boundary, but one parent (the one who did not initiate the boundary) is comforting the child? I don't see anything wrong with this. The child might be overly emotional. So what?? They need comfort! Do we try to squelch their emotions because they are really emotional, and we aren't comfortable with those big emotions?

[Joanne]

I answered your first question quite clearly: I think "comforting" a child who ran to the other parent to be indulgent.

I don't believe in over-emotion. I used to believe kids should have minimal interference with the emotions but I have changed my mind on that due in part to having a kid that NEEDED to be told "enough" emotion.

I don't believe managing emotion with kids = squelching. I am comfortable with big emotion but I do believe that in an effort to avoid "happy is the only emotion" much of the alternative crowd has gone to the other extreme.

Kids don't need comfort for a reasonable boundary firmly and non punitively set. A quick "you're sad" is fine at young ages. Me? I set the boundary, they have their feelings and I go do laundry.
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[Aisling]

Joanne...it sounds like your experience with an emotionally intense child shaped a lot of your views on this. :think While I agree with a lot of what you've said (especially the acknowledging, but also moving on with your day), I don't think I agree with the idea that helping a stuck child move on is indulgent. Probably my own experience with a child who needed assistance colors this.

I imagine that our level of emotional doting probably looks pretty similar, semantics aside. I agree that our entire day doesn't need to always screech to a halt in order to over-process every little disappointment. The big stuff, I don't feel badly for taking a few minutes to reflect. :)

[Rabbit]

"I hear you. You can handle this," is comforting. :shrug3

[Heather Micaela]

I think this is especially the case when a child runs to one parent for comfort when the other has given a boundary\enforced a rule.

IPosted via Mobile Device
I was just about to post this.

What if both parents are enforcing the boundary, but one parent (the one who did not initiate the boundary) is comforting the child? I don't see anything wrong with this. The child might be overly emotional. So what?? They need comfort! Do we try to squelch their emotions because they are really emotional, and we aren't comfortable with those big emotions?
I always listen to what they child is crying about what Daddy said then send them back to Dad to comfort WHILE restating the boundary and vice versa.

And IRT to squelching. Comfort will not go on and on. We reflect feelings, give a hug, then tell them to go to their room to get their crying out. (That is not a punishment, just a quiet place to go - a comfort corner of sorts)

[Aisling]

"I hear you. You can handle this," is comforting. :shrug3
:yes (Unless, of course, they actually can't. :shifty :duck)

[CapeTownMommy]

I also have a child whose emotions will not stop escalating until they are addressed. I think, for this child, it is punitive to refuse her comfort, whether that emotion is in response to a boundary or not. I do not think I indulge her if she's really upset that, let's say, TV time is over. That doesn't mean I turn the TV back on, but I will give her a hug and say "you really liked that show, didn't you? We can watch it again another day, why don't you tell me what the show was about instead?" I just don't see anything indulgent about that. :shrug3

And that doesn't change whether it was dh or I who decided that TV time is over. She does come running to me sometimes because dh enforced some discipline, and I will never, never override what he did but I will help her address her emotions about it. She is not emotionally mature enough to understand why I leave her alone while she's crying, and I think it will be bad parenting on my part to do so.

[Ellen]

I'll admit I started this thread because I wanted to hear Joanne explain her view (and find out whether others shared it). I have heard all the advice on the importance of validating/reflecting feelings and I do a lot of that . . . I also have a 4.5 yo child who can be known to react disproprortionately to the situation at hand and I can see how I might need to engage less with her emotions. I can also see how boundaries might be clearer for her when I remain matter-of-fact and refuse to focus on her emotional response.

It seems to me that a fine balance is needed.

[cindergretta]

I think it is permissive to let the boundary go due to big feelings. :shrug3 I think sticking to the boundary while acknowledging it is hard is comforting. I do this all the time with my kiddos. And I find that the older they get, the less "help" or "comfort" they need with the big feelings. My older three rarely ever need me to "reflect" their feelings on a boundary. They do need me to acknowledge they have feelings, of course, but it isn't quite the same. My special needs 7-tomorrow ds needs a lot of reflecting and comfort and redirection and "unsticking." My 5 and 2 year olds need hugs and acknowledgement that it stinks. But the boundaries don't change. They just know mama cares that they are hurt or angry or frustrated by the boundary.

In terms of running from one parent to the other, I don't have an issue with this. :shrug3 Dh or I will set a firm boundary that causes big emotions the afflicted dc will run to the other parent. We restate the boundary and affirm it while giving the love/attention needed. If they went running to the other to get the boudnary erased, that would be different. But neither dh nor I have *ever* retracted something the other one has said. I think our dc now know that is pointless. :shrug3 But it doesn't mean we won't commiserate with the "wounded party." (said tongue-in-cheek)

[homesteadmama]

Perhaps age and personality of the child are also factors to be considered. My 3yo would feel completely abandoned (not a feeling I, as an attached mom, *ever* want her to feel) if I said "you're sad. Now go to your room and finish your crying". Doing that would only make her go into fight or flight, and no learning happens at that point. I do think when she is older, and developmentally capable of handling her big feelings better, it would be appropriate. But not now. :no

[Ellen]

Perhaps age and personality of the child are also factors to be considered.

I was thinking that too.

[ArmsOfLove]

I would draw a distinction between "comforting" and "coddling" or "indulging". The last two I would say are permissive. Comfort, though, is about restoring a sense of order and peace to a person by your reaction. That will look different with different children. For instance, with running to the other person, there is a difference between mom saying no, child getting upset and running to daddy, and daddy reflecting feelings and suggesting an appropriate outlet for the child's feelings and daddy taking child into big loving arms and letting them sob on him while validating that mommy was unfair and is a big ole meanie and daddy really understands how hard this is, etc.

the dictionary definition of comfort uses some wording that sounds indulging and I think it can become that, but I think that's only if you view any negative feeling as needing to be gotten rid of. Frankly, I find people who try to make me feel something other than I do manipulative and creepy--not comforting at all ;) But people who can validate my feelings, help me to see the truth in the situation, and even set a boundary on what I may do or not do while I'm upset . . . I feel safe with them.

Some children need the comfort of a safe place to cry or stomp it out--even if it's in a private place so that everyone isn't held hostage to it. Some children need the comfort of arms willing to hold them while they are sad and then they can let it go. Some children need to be told, "This is enough. The situation is a 5 and you are reacting with a 10. Pull yourself together." The foundation of attachment parenting is great for helping you know which your child needs to be comforted and have peace restored to them the soonest :heart

If you fear the negative feelings and seek to always keep a child happy then you will be permissive. If your method for bringing comfort to them is to give in and indulge them then you will be permissive. If you teach them how to restore peace in themselves and equip them with tools and life skills that will help them forever when they have negative feelings then you are not being permissive.

[Heather Micaela]

Perhaps age and personality of the child are also factors to be considered. My 3yo would feel completely abandoned (not a feeling I, as an attached mom, *ever* want her to feel) if I said "you're sad. Now go to your room and finish your crying". Doing that would only make her go into fight or flight, and no learning happens at that point. I do think when she is older, and developmentally capable of handling her big feelings better, it would be appropriate. But not now. :no
Well it isn't quite like that.

How this is handled woudl vary by age, but to make it even, I will use my 3yo. Lets say she uses the markers to color all over the table. Dh makes her clean it up and then says "the markers need to be put away for now because I can't watch you with them right now. You can use them tomorrow when I can watch you."
Then she runs to me weeping and says "Daddy made me put the markers away" I (while holding her) gently say "You need to listen to Daddy." Then to dh "A is feeling sad." Dh gives her a big hug while she cries some and says "You wanted to color longer." A blubbers out "yeah and you won't LET me!" and cires louder. Dh gives another hug and says " You can be sad - that's ok. Let's take you to your room and you can hug your doll" And he takes her there and leaves her alone. We have 4 other children and we will not be hijacked into a 1/2 cry-fest over markers :shrug3 But neither are we pushing her away.

Now, with younger kids we take more time. With older, less. And I actually take LESS time with my child dx'd with a mood disorder than with my other older child because that one will get WORSE with more attention.

[Raspberries]

Some children need to be told, "This is enough. The situation is a 5 and you are reacting with a 10. Pull yourself together." The foundation of attachment parenting is great for helping you know which your child needs to be comforted and have peace restored to them the soonest :heart
Yeah and I've had to do this with DD1. After things have been validated and reflected I need to help her pull it back together. It really isn't a one size fits all. Like others have said - age, situation, personality, variables - all will effect the script and reaction of both parties.

[homesteadmama]

Well it isn't quite like that.

How this is handled woudl vary by age, but to make it even, I will use my 3yo. Lets say she uses the markers to color all over the table. Dh makes her clean it up and then says "the markers need to be put away for now because I can't watch you with them right now. You can use them tomorrow when I can watch you."
Then she runs to me weeping and says "Daddy made me put the markers away" I (while holding her) gently say "You need to listen to Daddy." Then to dh "A is feeling sad." Dh gives her a big hug while she cries some and says "You wanted to color longer." A blubbers out "yeah and you won't LET me!" and cires louder. Dh gives another hug and says " You can be sad - that's ok. Let's take you to your room and you can hug your doll" And he takes her there and leaves her alone. We have 4 other children and we will not be hijacked into a 1/2 cry-fest over markers :shrug3 But neither are we pushing her away.

Now, with younger kids we take more time. With older, less. And I actually take LESS time with my child dx'd with a mood disorder than with my other older child because that one will get WORSE with more attention.

I don't disagree with anything you said, Heather. I'm not sure what you were referring to when you said "it isn't quite like that". Obviously personalities differ between your 3yo and mine. That was part of my point.

[Heather Micaela]

I don't disagree with anything you said, Heather. I'm not sure what you were referring to when you said "it isn't quite like that". Obviously personalities differ between your 3yo and mine. That was part of my point.
You said if I said "you're sad. Now go to your room and finish your crying".

And it isn't quite like that. So I was clarifying that there is true comforting happening and adding more detail

And since you do not know the personality of my child, nor I yours, I have no idea if -in this particular case - personality plays a part at all:shrug3

Everyone in my family other than dh is more emontially intense than the average person - just ask Crystal :yes. And from having had my feeling invalidated and shamed and punished further, I am very careful to make sure my children understand they are loved and their feelings are heard. But there is a point when life has to continue and we move on. As a pp said, it really is a fine line and you do have to know your child to know when that point is.

[Autumn]

(Subbing to read later...)

[Waterlogged]

\Some children need to be told, "This is enough. The situation is a 5 and you are reacting with a 10. Pull yourself together." The foundation of attachment parenting is great for helping you know which your child needs to be comforted and have peace restored to them the soonest :heart

Very true, and I've noticed this already with DD. DD cries/screams when she's mad. When I try to "comfort" her when she's screaming her mad scream, she just escalates. But if I say....you're mad, you're okay and then redirect, she stops. She has an on/off switch for her mad scream. For her, "comforting" her is indulgent and coddling, and is generally more for *my* benefit (especially if we're out in public). It is okay for her to be mad. Heck, it's okay if she screams. But I will hold whatever boundary I've enforced.

Knowing your child is SO important...

[Aisling]

Knowing your child is SO important...


Wise words! :heart

I'd add to that only that knowing your own tenancies is also important...having a good self-awareness (so our own blindspots don't cloud our perceptions of our children), and then knowing our children as well. I've found that I have to work hard to have a fair perception of the child I'm least like, because it's easy to assume the worst about people you don't understand...a combination of knowing your child + positive intent is crucial. :yes :nak2

[Peridot]

What I do in response to big feelings caused by an enforced boundary may LOOK permissive.

Daddy corrects- Mommy hugs and says, "I know you are sad, but Daddy said no and that means 'no'."

Mommy enforces boundary- child melts down- Mommy opens her arms to provide a refuge. Maximus will allow himself to be picked up and then just melt into my arms. He doesn't expect me to recind the boundary, I don't expect him to be happy. This TOTALLY diffuses what could have become a combative- him chasing me all over the house situation. He knows that I know its hard.

God provides comfort for me when I run up against a boundary he has set for me. If I claim him as my refuge than I will provide refuge for my child, if that's what he needs.

Minimus responds best to me saying, 'yes, you are angry." and putting him down and walking away. He is almost always able to change gears on his own, right away. It's as if for him I am saying, 'hey, no biggie' and he says, 'Oh, it's NOT that big is it?' :giggle

As pp's have said, they need two different things. I am certain that to an outsider, it looks like I am favoring or babying Maximus and being harsh w/Minimus...but that is not the case.

[Aisling]

I hear exactly what you're saying, peridot. :yes

Dh and I have trust that we'll back up the other's parenting, unless the other is just stressed to the point of being way off their game, at which point we'll discuss our concerns privately. :yes This is just imperative for healthy relational development

Obviously, if one of us steps over a boundary and becomes irrational, we call each other out on the spot. This is reserved for critical moments only.

How I help each child manage feelings depends so much on the individual and their age!

DD1 needs my FULL attention and love...for exactly 3 seconds. :lol Then, she's good. It's becoming increasingly shorter and less frequent. :rockon She prefers working it out on her own. :cool

DD2 needs me to help her name her feelings, a hug, and help with moving on. Sometimes, that includes, "You need to unstick your feelings, because you're letting them run away with you. Take breathes and stop crying now." Otherwise, my very sensitive child will cry until kingdom come. It's imperative that *I* don't join in her big feelings, or she will completely be rattled and come apart at the seams.

DD3 is still a baby, and is easily helped by the breast or another shiny activity. :giggle

[Marsha]

My oldest needs validation, understanding and NO DRAMA, including "i'm so sorry you feel bad" unless said completely dead pan, in which case then she can turn her drama on to YOU for not caring enough. And not a hint , or a breath of feeling bad for her, or wvering in the slightest or she will NOT let up.

My youngest needs cuddled and held. i do not change my mind, nor do I spend an inordinate amount of time on it, but if she's tired, etc she needs some cuddling.

[MamaPepper]

I've been reading this awhile. . . and for some reason this morning, it just occurred to me that Noah NEEDS comforting. He's just SO independent otherwise, that sometimes I forget, but as I'm reading this and looking back on past situations, when I set a boundary and try to let Noah work it out on his own, he gets REALLY upset to the point of raging, but when I pull him into my lap and reflect his feelings, and comfort him, he still doesn't 'get what he wants', but he at least calms down and we can talk about it and move on. . . when otherwise he would rage uncontrollably for a LONG TIME cause a lot of distress on the family. . . and I guess this leads me into thinking that sometimes I think he really does just need my attention and a cuddle.

I haven't totally figured Leo out yet. I'm fairly certain that he needs the love and support through his upset at me setting a boundary. Whereas Noah gets angry but responds to just sitting on my lap in silence, Leo is just torn apart and needs the cuddles plus the verbal comfort. . .

I just can't see where helping a child through these times, and teaching them boundaries with compassion is a bad thing :shrug3

[Joanne]

Yes, I think it can be permissive if you comfort their response to discipline. I think this is especially the case when a child runs to one parent for comfort when the other has given a boundary\enforced a rule.

I also observe that many kids who tend to need or crave that kind of comfort need emotional "scaling" and imposed limits on over-emotion. I have also found many cases of "I know you are sad but you need to _______ because _______" turns into giving the child details on which to argue.

My kids can feel however they feel about a boundary. I won't punish for it, but I also won't rescue them from it.
Posted via Mobile Device

I just wanted to quote myself to emphasize the "can" and "many" qualfiers. I did not post an absolute comfort around discipline = permssive.

[afternoonrain]

thanks Joanne. Sometimes I need word specifics pointed out to me. :giggle

Can we discuss the situation where the child runs to another parent? My dd tends to ALWAYS come to me. Falls on a rock and DH is right there? comes to me. Always. Regardless if she was being corrected or she made a mistake she always comes to me. Even if it's just to say "I fell down and hurt my foot. Next time I shouldn't climb on that rock!"

my DH tends to be punitive minded and suffers terribly from word vomit. How would one comfort in that situation without pegging the other parent as a "bad parent?"

[Rabbit]

How you comfort a child when the situation has nothing to do with the other parent should also have nothing to do with the other parent. When Seth takes a tumble, and comes running to me, his Daddy is right behind him to run a hand over his head, rub his back, and check right along with me that everything is okay. If Daddy doesn't want to be there providing comfort, then Daddy's just not there, and that's his problem. If Daddy is not safe to go to for comfort, then the child isn't going to go to him, and you don't have to say a word about it. Privately, you can address it with your husband.

[afternoonrain]

In that situation though, would it be permissive to comfort?

What if you kind of are involved? DH has a tendency to say to dd "stop doing x! you can't just run around and do whatever you want all the time! you are making your mother miserable?" :hunh She comes and hugs my legs crying.

[Rabbit]

The issues you're dealing with seem bigger than whether or not comforting is permissive. You could start a thread about how to cope with your husband's attempts at parenting.

[Marsha]

Ah, here's another tricky one. Sometimes I get touched out, esp. when it' shot, and I'll tell my youngest to get off me, or quit climbing on me or licking my arms and playing with my tummy and all the stuff she does, she's in a VERY physical stage right now with me and i'ts frankly annoying a lot of the time.

And THEN she'll cry and want holding with her comforting. GAH!!! I offer her to sit next to me and cuddle but NOT to climb on me, play with my tummy or try to nurse!!!! (and yes, she's almost 5, I don't feel bad about telling her not to)

[afternoonrain]

yeah that is a tricky one. I find myself having to think very hard (and quickly) about whether or not comforting is going to erode the boundary, or if not comforting will erode the teaching experience . And in different situations, deciding how she needs to be comforted (and how to keep the boundary.) Affirming words, being near me, hugs, etc.

*Marsha, I think "erode" might become one of my new favorite words:lol

[Peridot]

In that situation though, would it be permissive to comfort?

What if you kind of are involved? DH has a tendency to say to dd "stop doing x! you can't just run around and do whatever you want all the time! you are making your mother miserable?" :hunh She comes and hugs my legs crying.

DH suffers from verbal vomit too. sometimes, if its completely out of line, i WILL speak up. Most often, i'll just say, 'I'm right here, if he bothers me, he'll know.' It is never permissive to provide the needed comfort just becasue someone else cannot provide it. :hug2

yeah that is a tricky one. I find myself having to think very hard (and quickly) about whether or not comforting is going to erode the boundary, or if not comforting will erode the teaching experience . And in different situations, deciding how she needs to be comforted (and how to keep the boundary.) Affirming words, being near me, hugs, etc.

*Marsha, I think "erode" might become one of my new favorite words:lol


I don't think you really need to worry about the boundary eroding, which to me suggests accidentally. It's up to you to hold firm, WHILE you comfort. ETA- Parenting IS a think-on-your-feet things-happening-faster-than-light, sort of job. It took me switching to GBD to realise that. :hug

[duckwithoneleg]

The issues you're dealing with seem bigger than whether or not comforting is permissive. You could start a thread about how to cope with your husband's attempts at parenting.

she did! that's the one this one was spun from :yes