when to care about being told 'no'

[mommylove]

I was recently talking to a close friend; we were sharing parenting gripes & successes.

I relayed a situation we experienced the other day. It went something like this:

DS asked to do something. I said yes. I outlined the (physical) boundaries, then I took him by the hand & we walked the physical boundaries. I turned my back for about 1 minute, and he was already outside the boundary. He was stopped, but outside the boundary. I told him to move to XX. He said 'no.' I told him again & said if he doesn't, he'll have to come inside. He said no. So I walked over to him and told him that it was time to come inside & that I would help him. So I gently led him inside with him whining all the day. In reply, I simply said that maybe next time he'll make a better choice. The whining/fit continued for almost an hour, but stopped immediately when DH arrived home. Then it was sunshine & smiles. :no

I wasn't asking for a comment, I was just venting about the whining.

But she asked how I address the 'no.'

:shrug3 I guess I don't. He's almost 4 and I don't make an issue of hearing him tell me 'no.' I just help him to follow through with my instruction. I guess I assumed that he'd eventually quit saying it when he learned that he'd still have to follow my instruction. But I hear it a lot.

She felt that I was allowing him to not follow rules, and those are the kids who drive teachers crazy because they won't obey. Those are the kids that aren't well-liked. She felt I was setting Ds up for unnecessary hardship for not learning early on that he has to obey parents/teachers/authority figures.

:think I'm not convinced, but I'm open to further exploring it. Admittedly, my personality is to be very headstrong and questioning of authority, so perhaps I'm imposing that on to him? :shrug3

So at this age, (almost 4) is my lack of addressing the 'no' detrimental to him? If not, at what age does it become a problem?

Opinions? TIA.

[Aerynne]

I'd talk to him about obedience at a calm moment, along with why parents make rules, etc then just remind him when he says no. I wouldn't expect a 4yo never to tell me no (and you can't force a child not to say no anyway). I think you handles it fine.

[sweetpeasmommy]

I still say no. :lol As a former overly compliant child who would have never dreamed of saying no to anyone authority or otherwise I feel it's very important for DS to learn to have a strong no. I want him to be able to speak up when he sees something wrong. I'm not trying to raise a convenient child. I'm trying to raise an adult who knows how to make his own decisions and stand up for what he believes. Teaching blind submission to authority can be dangerous.

He's 5 and right now I really don't care if he tells me no. That distracts from the real issue. Well some days I would prefer he do everything I ask, immediately with no opinion :shifty. But since this is a child we are talking about and not a robot or a dog in obedience training, I'd rather focus on teaching him to be who he is supposed to be rather than what is most convenient for me. I'm the Momma and what I say goes. He's entitled to an opinion about it as long as he is able to express that respectfully. Saying no is no real threat to my authority. :shrug

[Kiara.I]

She felt that I was allowing him to not follow rules, and those are the kids who drive teachers crazy because they won't obey. Those are the kids that aren't well-liked. She felt I was setting Ds up for unnecessary hardship for not learning early on that he has to obey parents/teachers/authority figures.

Well. Maybe he will obey teachers, and maybe he won't. He'll probably have trouble with blind obedience if what they're asking doesn't make sense to him.

Here's the thing though--your end point is not a compliant grade 5. It's a fully-functioning adult who can question when needed and obey when needed. That road is probably going to be bumpy, and frustrating for all concerned on the way, at least sometimes. Sometimes, it will be a real joy.

I like to view it as nurturing the traits I want to see in adulthood.

I guess I'd say, it might be hardship, but that's okay! Hardship develops character. I'm not raising my children to necessarily have the easiest life possible. Or, maybe, I am, but I don't think short-term easy by training obedience as a child leads to overall "easier life." I think that an ability to think and discuss and dialogue and stand up for convictions leads to an "easier life" overall, although many adults don't care for it in children.

[mokamoto]

I agree with you in theory, but do you draw a line between saying no and "doing" no or ignoring and doing his own thing? Also, do you plan to homeschool? The end goal of an adult who has a definite sense of right and wrong and can say no is what I am after, too. There are societal rules though that need to be followed to keep order and efficiency and breaking them should be a principles statement, not an everyday occurance just bc my DS doesn't like the rule. (btw, this isn't from experience... Yet), just thoughts. Anyway, not following the rules of the class blocks everyone's opportunity to learn, which is wrong. So if you don't plan to ha, how are you thinking to teach general obedience to teachers... Or do you? (fwiw I was also overlycompliant with an authoriatarian father, so I struggle with this in my parenting and in general in my adult life. Thanks for sharing any further thoughts, sweetpeasmommy! :heart

I still say no. :lol As a former overly compliant child who would have never dreamed of saying no to anyone authority or otherwise I feel it's very important for DS to learn to have a strong no. I want him to be able to speak up when he sees something wrong. I'm not trying to raise a convenient child. I'm trying to raise an adult who knows how to make his own decisions and stand up for what he believes. Teaching blind submission to authority can be dangerous.

He's 5 and right now I really don't care if he tells me no. That distracts from the real issue. Well some days I would prefer he do everything I ask, immediately with no opinion :shifty. But since this is a child we are talking about and not a robot or a dog in obedience training, I'd rather focus on teaching him to be who he is supposed to be rather than what is most convenient for me. I'm the Momma and what I say goes. He's entitled to an opinion about it as long as he is able to express that respectfully. Saying no is no real threat to my authority. :shrug

[Amber]

I think you did fine. Honestly, you can't stop him from saying "no". What you did was clearly state the boundaries, he chose to go outside those boundaries and you enforced them by bringing him inside. He is not even 4 yet, I wouldn't worry about him saying no.

My youngest is almost 4, when he does things like this I do almost exactly what you did. Sometimes I will script him with "Yes, Mommy." as I move him to do whatever it is he needs to do.

[Meli]

You did address the "no" - you ensured he followed through on the rule despite him saying it.

[ArmsOfLove]

I would suggest that you "address" the no by not giving into it--it gets him nothing. THAT is excellent for that age :yes :tu

It's an immature way of assertion his displeasure. You could give him a sxript if you want :)

When my 8yo tells me no I give him a look and he says, "I mean yes :) "

[sweetpeasmommy]

I agree with you in theory, but do you draw a line between saying no and "doing" no or ignoring and doing his own thing?
I handle both the same way by making it happen. If his no was rude, I will script him. "Did you mean yes Mommy I would love to pick up all the toys right away? Now let's go."

Also, do you plan to homeschool? The end goal of an adult who has a definite sense of right and wrong and can say no is what I am after, too. There are societal rules though that need to be followed to keep order and efficiency and breaking them should be a principles statement, not an everyday occurance just bc my DS doesn't like the rule. (btw, this isn't from experience... Yet), just thoughts. Anyway, not following the rules of the class blocks everyone's opportunity to learn, which is wrong. So if you don't plan to ha, how are you thinking to teach general obedience to teachers... Or do you? (fwiw I was also overlycompliant with an authoriatarian father, so I struggle with this in my parenting and in general in my adult life. Thanks for sharing any further thoughts, sweetpeasmommy! :heart

I do plan to homeschool. There are plenty of ways to teach the rules of society IRL from waiting your turn in line at the grocery store to treating others kindly at the playground to keeping your voice down in the restaurant so as not to disturb others. I'm really not sure that not making an issue of the word no has anything to do with not following the rules of society. :scratch DS does have to follow the rules and respect others just like everyone else. I just don't expect blind first time obedience. He's a child, it's part of learning and I am here to teach him not conquer him iykwim.

[mokamoto]

I handle both the same way by making it happen. If his no was rude, I will script him. "Did you mean yes Mommy I would love to pick up all the toys right away? Now let's go."


I do plan to homeschool. There are plenty of ways to teach the rules of society IRL from waiting your turn in line at the grocery store to treating others kindly at the playground to keeping your voice down in the restaurant so as not to disturb others. I'm really not sure that not making an issue of the word no has anything to do with not following the rules of society. :scratch DS does have to follow the rules and respect others just like everyone else. I just don't expect blind first time obedience. He's a child, it's part of learning and I am here to teach him not conquer him iykwim.

That REALLY helps me! :ty4. I have been having trouble responding to these concerns from more punitive friends and family. I am still deep in the GBD learning curve! Thanks for your patience with me!!!! :heart

[Llee]

Just subbing in. :)

[dulce de leche]

[QUOTE=mommylove;3043546
She felt that I was allowing him to not follow rules, and those are the kids who drive teachers crazy because they won't obey. [/QUOTE]

:scratch How did you allow him not to follow rules? You helped him to do exactly what you said. If you had just sat there wringing your hands and let him go, then she might have a point, but you didn't.

[camperjen]

really, a 3/4yo doesn't really have a "mouth filter" yet and they say what comes to mind. they're very stubborn in trying to get their way so they'll say no once because it first comes to mind (as in "I don't want to") and then they stick with it hoping you'll change YOUR mind.

as my older son (5) has gotten older, he's more able to verbalize WHY he disagrees with my rule as opposed to simply stating NO without any negotiation skills. he's gotten me to change my mind once or twice by stating something important to him. since my kids are whole people with their own wants and desires and opinions, I try to give them that voice when appropriate (the "when appropriate" part is the most important!) I'd expect that as your son gets older he'll be better able to verbalize WHY he disagrees with your stance - but in the meantime, your follow-through was great.

[jewelmcjem]

Exactly. I have learned to let the *saying* of 'no' happen while making the *doing* of 'yes' happen. I would answer the friend "Do you seriously think my child will act like a 4yo at age 6? You're not giving him enough credit. He'll see that his 'no' in this circumstance doesn't mean anything, and stop saying it on his own."

Now, sometimes NO should mean something, and that is a different issue altogether.

[mommylove]

really, a 3/4yo doesn't really have a "mouth filter" yet and they say what comes to mind. they're very stubborn in trying to get their way so they'll say no once because it first comes to mind (as in "I don't want to") and then they stick with it hoping you'll change YOUR mind.



Aaah, the mouth filter -- good point. I forgot about that. Becky Bailey says they get their filter around 6 years, give or take a year.

Thanks to everyone who reminded me that I did address the 'no' by helping him follow through.

This mom is my dearest friend, and our conversations are always thought-provoking, but since she's the more 'experienced' mom, I find that I freeze when she questions my approach. Which is often. :giggle We have the same end goal, but VERY different ways of getting there.

There are plenty of ways to teach the rules of society IRL from waiting your turn in line at the grocery store to treating others kindly at the playground to keeping your voice down in the restaurant so as not to disturb others. I'm really not sure that not making an issue of the word no has anything to do with not following the rules of society. :scratch DS does have to follow the rules and respect others just like everyone else. I just don't expect blind first time obedience. He's a child, it's part of learning and I am here to teach him not conquer him iykwim.

ITA. Thanks for the reminder.

:scratch How did you allow him not to follow rules? You helped him to do exactly what you said. If you had just sat there wringing your hands and let him go, then she might have a point, but you didn't.

While she's never used the words, she expects first time obedience, so I guess coming from that expectation, me helping him do what I asked is not the same as doing what it takes to achieve first time obedience. But I did help him follow rules. :)

Thanks everyone. It's much clearer in my head now, and I'm more certain that I'm on the right path. :thumbsup

[Sparrow]

My son is 4 too, and I often hear "no" from him. I think you did great. I'd rather my son be honest and say no, then to say yes with his legs and no with his heart.

I also do not want my kids to blindly follow authority without questioning it. I, like sweetpeasmommy was overly compliant. I still struggle to say no, even if I'm defending myself. I think that saying no without asking why can be dangerous. How can a child establish their own boundaries? Last month he was told by MIL to hug an uncle he doesn't really know. A said "no thank you." and there was a huge fuss. I told them he shouldn't have to hug someone if he wasn't comfortable.

I also want my son to know that I may not agree with his opinion, but he can voice it.

For the record, a few days ago I told my son it was time to get off the computer, and he gave me a strong NO. I said "try again" and he said very politely "no thank you". :giggle.

[sweetpeasmommy]

This mom is my dearest friend, and our conversations are always thought-provoking, but since she's the more 'experienced' mom, I find that I freeze when she questions my approach. Which is often.

This dynamic bothers me. Whie I enjoy thought provoking conversations if someone felt that meant it's okay to tell me how to parent my child, those conversations would have to stop.

[DesiringHim]

You did address the "no" - you ensured he followed through on the rule despite him saying it.

This. :yes

[relizabeth]

I have a sneaking suspicion that addressing the 'no' with a reprimand or punishment for disrespect might be what she meant. The punitive paradigm requires it.

Thing is, that's often overkill--and you still kept firm to what you required him to do and helped him do it. Adding a reprimand or punishment on top of that could very well have frustrated and or angered him, which is actually an obstacle to his successfully learning to comply with your requests and develop an obedient heart. :heart

[mommylove]

This dynamic bothers me. Whie I enjoy thought provoking conversations if someone felt that meant it's okay to tell me how to parent my child, those conversations would have to stop.

It's not like that, though. She questions me, but doesn't challenge me. She's respectful about it. I think she's intrigued by my bizarre way of thinking. :giggle All she knows is punitive parenting. She's the only person IRL who I discuss parenting with, so I actually like our conversations because it makes me think through why I do what I do.

I have a sneaking suspicion that addressing the 'no' with a reprimand or punishment for disrespect might be what she meant. The punitive paradigm requires it.
Yeah, you're totally right. :yes