really need help with tools for parenting my 2.5yo--specific scenarios described [Archive]

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schmamy

01-28-2010, 01:22 PM

DS will be 2.5 in a couple of weeks. Up until now, my thoughts on parenting and gentle discipline have mostly gone untested, because he has been an extremely easy, laidback, compliant little guy. But over the last couple of weeks, we are seeing new, frustrating attitudes and more and more whining, of a different nature than before.

So many times in the last little while, I have wanted to spank him, or have felt very anxious and frustrated because I feel like I need to do *something* to address his behavior--but haven't had a clue how to handle it. I need some tools, mamas. Can you help?

Let me give a couple of specific scenarios that have come up this week:

1) Refusal to obey.
DS has this neat wooden table that DH built, filled with 10-15 lbs of dry beans and various containers for pouring, scooping, etc. He absolutely loves it. He's had it for a LONG time and he has been remarkably good about keeping the beans in the table. When he spills some or tries to put them elsewhere, we remind him that the beans stay in the table, and he picks them up without a fight. But last night, he threw a handful of beans all over the floor. I went to him, got down on his level and said, "Pick up the beans. Put them back in the table." He just stood there and gave me this look like, "What are you going to do about it?" I know we don't like the word "defiant" around here, but I don't know how else to describe it. It felt *very* defiant.

I repeated myself several times and was helping him pick up the beans as I said it, but he just stood there, refusing to cooperate. I got right in his face and told him he needed to obey Mama and pick up the beans...still nothing. I thought of how we are supposed to "help them obey" but I didn't feel like I could physically make him pick up the beans...or should I really have tried to put my hand over his, force his legs to squat down, etc.?

Other times when we have had bean incidents (like pouring out his sippy cup of water all over the beans :rolleyes) I have closed up the table for the day as a consequence. But this time, other kids were playing with it too and so a) I didn't want to punish them, and 2) I didn't see how I could leave it open for them yet keep him out of it without a whole lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. I was totally at a loss.

2) Pushing.
We had a 7.5yo (DD of a friend) in our home the last few days, and her 5.5yo sister yesterday and this morning. DS was constantly pushing them if they were doing something he didn't like. Obviously he wasn't actually going to hurt them, but they were complaining, and of course pushing is unacceptable. I know "you hit, you sit"--would you also apply that to pushing? Is that what I should have done? Can someone describe very specifically what that looks like with a 2.5yo?

Last night DS was down in the basement with DH and the girls, and he pushed one of them. DH apparently picked him up and sat him on the workbench, and said gently but firmly, "you may not push [DD]. Do you understand?" DS sat there screaming his brains out for what seemed like HOURS...I don't know how DH had the patience to handle it. He made DS sit there until he would say yes--which he finally did--but in the meantime he was not just crying, he was angry. Again, DH described it as... :duck defiant. Like he was just mad about the whole thing.

3) Whining. We've had plenty of problems with whining in the past and I've worn out the phrase, "don't whine, use your words." But here lately, it's been more than just whining. It's been an angry "NYAH!" in response to us saying something he doesn't like, sort of like he's yelling, "NO!" in our faces. The whining drives me batty and I don't want to allow him to "talk" to/respond to us that way. This also happens--the really angry-sounding whine/yell--when other kids are playing with something he wants or doing anything he doesn't like (like with the girls above). But I don't know how to handle it.

Thoughts? Would really appreciate your input--thanks for reading this ridiculous long post. :heart

Katigre

01-28-2010, 02:26 PM

:hug Your DS is growing into a new stage of development and this is only the beginning. It is good to be posting about this now b/c as he grows into his own person the compliance will decrease (which is a GOOD thing in the long run - remind yourself of that). That means you as a parent have to be confident in the approach you are taking and make sure that the scripts you have inside your head for interpreting his behavior are grace-focused and not adversarial (b/c it is VERY VERY easy to turn adversarial and it does not improve the situation).

Let's see if any of these suggestions help (they may or may not - what each child responds to is different).

1) Refusal to obey.
GOYB and "make it happen" are your tools here. You are viewing his behavior through a very adversarial lense "refusal to obey" as if he has the cognitive ability to understand all of that. Instead, your role right now is to TEACH HIM how to obey. Remember that - in discipline, your primary goal is teaching and discipling.

But last night, he threw a handful of beans all over the floor. I went to him, got down on his level and said, "Pick up the beans. Put them back in the table." He just stood there and gave me this look like, "What are you going to do about it?" I know we don't like the word "defiant" around here, but I don't know how else to describe it. It felt *very* defiant.
There are other ways to accomplish your goal (enforcing the boundary 'beans stay on the table'). Here is what I would have said:

"Beans stay on the table - we need to pick them up"

Start picking them up and see if he'll do it with you. If he won't or starts to throw a fit, then you can help him pick them up by putting some in his hand and guiding it to the table to drop them in. If he's alright with that and you're able to pick up the rest of the beans, then continue playing. If he gets more upset and isn't going to keep playing with the beans, then just put them away for now. Don't do it in a punitive way (mentality - "You spilled the beans and refused to pick up, so your punishment is the beans going away - that will teach you to thwart what I say!" :mad), instead approach it calmly (mentality: "You're having trouble picking up the beans, we'll move onto using something else instead.")

I got right in his face and told him he needed to obey Mama and pick up the beans...still nothing. I thought of how we are supposed to "help them obey" but I didn't feel like I could physically make him pick up the beans...or should I really have tried to put my hand over his, force his legs to squat down, etc.?
This was very adversarial of you - there is no reason to make it a stand-off power struggle when you could have changed it into something you picked up together both by modeling and helping his hands drop beans back onto the table.

Playful Parenting would also serve you well here - make picking it up a game. Discipline doesn't have to be approached seriously all the time :no.

Other times when we have had bean incidents (like pouring out his sippy cup of water all over the beans :rolleyes) I have closed up the table for the day as a consequence.
You're still thinking punitively - 'i'll make a consequence so unpleasant he won't do that again'.

But this time, other kids were playing with it too and so a) I didn't want to punish them, and 2) I didn't see how I could leave it open for them yet keep him out of it without a whole lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. I was totally at a loss.
Why not just stay right next to him so you can prevent the undesired behavior and reinforce proper use of the beans? That is discipline and it teaches the right way to do things without a punishment or crying.

2) Pushing.
We had a 7.5yo (DD of a friend) in our home the last few days, and her 5.5yo sister yesterday and this morning. DS was constantly pushing them if they were doing something he didn't like. Obviously he wasn't actually going to hurt them, but they were complaining, and of course pushing is unacceptable. I know "you hit, you sit"--would you also apply that to pushing? Is that what I should have done? Can someone describe very specifically what that looks like with a 2.5yo?
Two things:
1. Emphasize "Pushing is not ok, hold up your hand and say "Stop" instead (and practice this a lot!)
2. Step up your supervision of him so you can intercept the pushing, help him make amends, and practice the right behavior 'say stop instead')

Last night DS was down in the basement with DH and the girls, and he pushed one of them. DH apparently picked him up and sat him on the workbench, and said gently but firmly, "you may not push [DD]. Do you understand?" DS sat there screaming his brains out for what seemed like HOURS...I don't know how DH had the patience to handle it. He made DS sit there until he would say yes--which he finally did--but in the meantime he was not just crying, he was angry. Again, DH described it as... :duck defiant. Like he was just mad about the whole thing.
That was a completely needless power struggle that set everyone up for failure. Taking him aside to get him out of the immediate situation and emphasize the rule 'we don't push' was good :yes. Making him sit there until he verbally said 'yes' :no. Do what I said above instead - much more productive, gives discipline, but isn't adversarial.

The whole exchange turned adversarial b/c of what your DH (and you) did, not b/c of your DS's refusal to say 'yes'.

3) Whining. We've had plenty of problems with whining in the past and I've worn out the phrase, "don't whine, use your words." But here lately, it's been more than just whining. It's been an angry "NYAH!" in response to us saying something he doesn't like, sort of like he's yelling, "NO!" in our faces. The whining drives me batty and I don't want to allow him to "talk" to/respond to us that way.
Script him - "You are upset because I put away the snack" "You are disappointed that it is time to go to bed" "You did not like that Girl is using your toy" He is only 2.5, he is new to talking, and he needs your mentoring in how to deal with frustration appropriately.

What I hear a lot of in your posts is assuming he knows the right way to act and you being frustrated that he doesn't do it. But he's little, he's barely out of toddlerhood! He needs you as his parent to give him models and scripts 100x for what to do - that is part of discipline and very important.

This also happens--the really angry-sounding whine/yell--when other kids are playing with something he wants or doing anything he doesn't like (like with the girls above). But I don't know how to handle it.
I want to ask a question here - what is your goal for your DS? Do you want him to never be upset at what someone else does that he doesn't like? Do you want him to be 'nice' about it (i.e., not express strong negative emotions)? Because I think that's not the best goal - as he grows he will experience all range of emotions and the goal is to teach him how to manage and express them appropriately, not deny that he has them. The book "Dealing with Disappointment" by Elizabeth Crary is extremely helpful with this - it is one of my favorite discipline books and is very short and easy to read.

Thoughts? Would really appreciate your input--thanks for reading this ridiculous long post. :heart
:heart Figuring out this parenting stuff is hard, it takes a lot of work especially if you're trying to overcome a punitive mindset (I have so been there and am still there many days :yes).

Leen

01-28-2010, 02:48 PM

:popcorn

Because we're approaching this stage, too, and I often feel at a loss in the moment.

ArmsOfLove

01-28-2010, 04:18 PM

He's 2.5. Put away anything he isn't mature enough to handle--regardless of what he was able to do before or what he will be able to do it again. Or put a sheet under the table and make the clean up easier :)

Give him words and scripts and institute you push you sit and have him take a break. But pay attention to *when* he does it and step in and help him. Be his advocate. If he's left alone to handle things he *will* push. Accept that and expect it and do what you need to do :tu

The thing is . . . this *is* 2.5. If you take offense at the defiance then you will have a long hard fight on your hands that you can't win because you can't make him not be 2.5 or get him past this developmental stage--in fact, you can make him stuck here so he's still doing these things as an adult :doh Get him *through* it :tu

He is learning how to be a different person from you, how to have his own ideas, and how to exert his will--all really important and good things. Just things he doesn't know how to do well yet. He needs a guide through this journey :hug

DoulaClara

01-28-2010, 04:55 PM

We're (Gianna and I) here- we are so here. I'm agreeing 100% with Katigre here- as soon as you let go of your own emotional reaction behind things, it does get better (and at least here, things seem to run much smoother!)

Now, trust me- I am a total type-A person, so it's not just as easy for me to just separate myself from the emotional reaction- it takes effort. But- it will get faster for you to fix your own reaction, over time. When I'm low on sleep (like this morning), or when I'm hungry (like this morning), I take things very personally and yell (Gianna was WHINING and seriously whined her way through two or three hours).

Have you read Playful Parenting, yet? It's very good, and I'm working hard at it. I'm not a naturally "playful" person, and so it's real work for me, but I'm giving it a lot of effort, at the very least.

I'm finding that the very most successful thing for me to do is what I call "changing the channel." I start by setting her up for success- when she's playing, I encourage her to stay within the boundaries of appropriate play. Like, today she had some counting bears out- I reminded her that counting bears needed to stay on her table, and if they got all over, we would have to collect them and put them in their safe box. She played well for a little while, until she decided that Lola (the dog) was going to "eat the bears," and she catapulted the entire collection of 75 bears all over the room in one fell swoop. SIGH. So after I mentally reminded myself that HER actions do not pull my puppet strings, I reminded her that the bears were now unsafe, and we needed to collect them together and put them in their box so they could be safe. She wasn't happy, that's for sure, but I quickly packed them up (and asked her how many red ones she could find), and I talked to her about what we were going to do next: "We're done with bears for now, and we can get out dress-ups, or you can pick out some puzzles to do."

It's seriously a GOYB time, now more than ever. As in, I can't knit or do anything that requires sitting and concentrating for longer than two minutes (I have to keep stopping and playing referee between Gianna and the dog). It's also a time when I'm really finding myself forced to really think about how I'm doing things. For sure, no one likes feeling "one-upped" by a kid. But, there's only a power imbalance if you give them that imbalance- in other words, there is no reason to try to impress upon them that you are in charge. And so this is directed at the actions your DH (with good intentions) chose- he chose to make it an issue, and so it was an issue. Rather than swiftly separating him from the issue, he made it an Issue. To show that he is the boss, and that DS was going to do exactly what he said, by hook or by crook. By doing this, he's enforcing to DS that there is power to be taken or given or removed or enforced, KWIM? I don't think I'm being totally clear- true power is held, rather than proven. (Good grief, I feel like Mr. Miagi).

Whining gives us, as parents, a sense of urgency that doesn't feel good at ALL. I know that for me, it makes me feel like I need to ACT NOW, ACT NOW!!! Which, is what it probably primally was meant to do. When Gianna whines her head off, I have to take my own deep breath, sometimes count to whatever number it takes, and just get the job done. So when she's whining, "I wannnnnnnnnt applessssssssssssssssssssssssssss! AAAAAAAAPPLESSSSSSSSSSS!!!" over and over while I'm trying to wash and cut some for her, rather than snapping at her or demanding that she "use her words," I start by giving her a script- "I'm really hungry- those apples look so good." Then, I drop it, and just do what I'm doing. If she's simply whining and I don't understand what she's saying, I start by trying to re-script: "Mommy, I want---?" If she re-scripts, I help her out. If she keeps whining, well? I keep myself available to her, and stay as pleasant as possible, but I don't really go crazy with the guessing game.

:hugheart Good luck- it's a heck of a challange, the older they get, huh? And just think, 3.5 is only a short year away! :doh Stay strong, keep your cool, and give yourself time to think. Something else that helps me is to look at photos of Gianna from last year at this time- she was so small. I think about the expectations I had for her at the time, and tell myself, "But she was only a baby!" And next year, when I look at photos of her right now, I will be saying the same thing. I want her to learn better skills right now, but I need to understand that she won't master them for a while. Goodness, I still whine my head off about some things!

schmamy

01-28-2010, 07:43 PM

wow...there is SO much for me to process and think through here! thanks for these insights, ladies :heart I need to print all this off and talk through it with my DH.

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

Start picking them up and see if he'll do it with you. If he won't or starts to throw a fit, then you can help him pick them up by putting some in his hand and guiding it to the table to drop them in.

I did do the first part--pick them up to see if he would start with me--but I hadn't thought about this specific way to help him do it :doh I was envisioning making him pick up the beans, hand over hand, and just thinking that was NOT going to go well. This description makes a lot more sense. :yes

If he's alright with that and you're able to pick up the rest of the beans, then continue playing. If he gets more upset and isn't going to keep playing with the beans, then just put them away for now. Don't do it in a punitive way (mentality - "You spilled the beans and refused to pick up, so your punishment is the beans going away - that will teach you to thwart what I say!" :mad), instead approach it calmly (mentality: "You're having trouble picking up the beans, we'll move onto using something else instead.")
...You're still thinking punitively - 'i'll make a consequence so unpleasant he won't do that again'.

I really don't think it was punitive the other day when this was the consequence. Well, maybe some, I can't claim 100% pure motives--but I do think there was a thought of, "you can't handle this right now, so we will put them away."

Why not just stay right next to him so you can prevent the undesired behavior and reinforce proper use of the beans? That is discipline and it teaches the right way to do things without a punishment or crying.

I think this may be a HUGE part of the issue right here. I have gotten extremely spoiled because of the way DS has been up until now. To be honest, he often requires very little from me. He plays unusually well by himself for a 2.5yo and so I haven't had to be super hands-on...it is going to be a huge mindset shift and pretty difficult to change my habits. Not making excuses or disagreeing with what you're saying--just being honest that it's going to be difficult for me.

2. Step up your supervision of him so you can intercept the pushing, help him make amends, and practice the right behavior 'say stop instead')

Same thing here as above. It has been, I am doing my own thing, in the kitchen or whatever, and he pushes. More than half the time I didn't necessarily see it happen. Clearly that's a problem I need to work on.

Thanks so much for taking the time to talk me through all that. :heart Those are my gut reactions--need to print it off, as I said, and think more through it/talk through it with DH.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

It's seriously a GOYB time, now more than ever.

Like I said in response to katigre, I think I'm seeing that this is key, a huge paradigm shift for me. Have had some unrealistic expectations--and I think that's a huge difference between GBD and the more punitive mindset, that there's this (unspoken) expectation with most of the moms around me, that you should be able to get your own things done or have a conversation with someone or whatever and not have to be hands-on with-your-child 100% of the time.

So after I mentally reminded myself that HER actions do not pull my puppet strings,

yep. that's huge. need to put that on my fridge or something.

rather than snapping at her or demanding that she "use her words," I start by giving her a script- "I'm really hungry- those apples look so good." Then, I drop it, and just do what I'm doing. If she's simply whining and I don't understand what she's saying, I start by trying to re-script: "Mommy, I want---?" If she re-scripts, I help her out. If she keeps whining, well? I keep myself available to her, and stay as pleasant as possible, but I don't really go crazy with the guessing game.

THANK YOU. I am not good with the scripting at all. So much so that it hadn't even occurred to me to think through and give him specific words to use :doh ...

ArmsOfLove

01-28-2010, 07:44 PM

2.5 is an age that needs more supervision with my children. Especially when playing with other children--and the more non-verbal the child is the more supervision they need. I script them over and over and over again--and jump in before they can get physical whenever I see it coming. Proactive is always more productive than reactive :yes

Emerald Orchid

01-28-2010, 07:49 PM

Thank you so much for this thread, DS1 is in this phase and driving me batty! I have turned so adversarial because I'm at such a loss. :bag

Two Little Birds

01-28-2010, 07:55 PM

Thank you all! I was going to post something very, very similar to this about my 2.5 yo ds.

It has been hard to GOMB because of how I've been feeling, so I've just gotten angry instead. :blush This is a good reminder to me that I need to be in charge of myself and my emotions.

One more thing, if I may?

How do you handle "sharing"? We talk about taking turns and setting the timer (it works for the most part). But the last couple weeks during play times with 2 other 2 year olds, ds has been flying off the handle when someone has something he wants. Hitting, kicking, screaming, pinching. I've been removing him from the situation and if he's hurt someone we've done; "you ____, you sit". I feel like I may be shaming him with the way I've handled it and I don't want to do that.

Katigre

01-28-2010, 09:37 PM

How do you handle "sharing"? We talk about taking turns and setting the timer (it works for the most part). But the last couple weeks during play times with 2 other 2 year olds, ds has been flying off the handle when someone has something he wants. Hitting, kicking, screaming, pinching. I've been removing him from the situation and if he's hurt someone we've done; "you ____, you sit". I feel like I may be shaming him with the way I've handled it and I don't want to do that.
Age 2-3 is a really hard time for kids to share because developmentally they're learning for the first time what ownership means. All of the things that you listed doing to help with sharing are what I do here too :yes - part of it is just persevering through this stage and knowing it gets easier as they gain more maturity.

What I found with DS is that I had to be very proactive when he was at his most emotional about sharing toys.

Playdates at our house were stressful for him b/c all the toys were 'his' and he had a hard time dealing with other kids were playing with them. So I had to be on my toes shadowing him to intercept before he lashed out, to do a lot of scripting and redirecting (sometimes more firmly). I also did a lot of prepping beforehand about what would happen when the kids played, and if he got upset and overwhelmed would take him in another room to calm down away from the activity.

I also was careful not to have too many playdates at our house. When possible, I met at neutral locations like a park outdoors or the library or friends' homes where DS had practice taking turns and sharing with toys that he wasn't attached to. (Though I even found I had to limit visits to the library to no more than once every week or two or else he started to get attached to certain toys there and think they were his).

I don't know if any of that helps...I don't even think about the issue much anymore b/c he's older now (almost 4) and really good at taking turns and letting others use his toys - and if he's having a hard time I just have to give him verbal direction and prompts instead of dealing with a meltdown like I did a year ago.

ArmsOfLove

01-28-2010, 09:50 PM