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sprout
06-19-2009, 10:09 PM
I was watching the Duggars on TVLand and it looked like the conference was a lot of fun.

What do you know about it?

and, I think many are against due to the Pearlness of it? but, I didn't see any of that...not, that it is not there....

allisonintx
06-19-2009, 10:11 PM
ATI is Gothard's program. Run away. Run very very fast.

relizabeth
06-19-2009, 10:12 PM
It's not good at all. My close friend was very, very involved in ATI and it was incredibly damaging to her & her family.

sprout
06-19-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm mostly interested in a curious way. We are very much relaxed homeschoolers and not quite ....looking for the words so not to offend any....so wholesome I guess you could say. I think we are more the crunchy/hippie with modernism homeschoolers.

sprout
06-19-2009, 10:16 PM
It's not good at all. My close friend was very, very involved in ATI and it was incredibly damaging to her & her family.


if you don't mind me asking...how was it damaging?

sprout
06-19-2009, 10:18 PM
ATI is Gothard's program. Run away. Run very very fast.


I don't know much about Gothard. I will have to look into that.

but, I have heard him spoken of not in a nice way.

ReedleBeetle
06-19-2009, 10:22 PM
I think it looks....um.....legalistic. It reminds me of my Apostolic Christian school i went to but with more "training" involved. I thought that episode made it look like a place to find a husband as well. I do enjoy seeing the Bates and Duggars get together though...you can tell they are great friends!

relizabeth
06-19-2009, 10:25 PM
PM'd you.

sprout
06-19-2009, 10:32 PM
I think it looks....um.....legalistic. It reminds me of my Apostolic Christian school i went to but with more "training" involved. I thought that episode made it look like a place to find a husband as well. I do enjoy seeing the Bates and Duggars get together though...you can tell they are great friends!


I'm really not trying to be dumb...I guess I just don't get it. What do you mean by "legalistic" and "training"?

The one episode I saw on the hs looked like us...B is Ball and the older kids do the work on the computer. What does that have to do with the ATI stuff?

I am just trying to process it b/c in all honesty, I guess I just don't get it.

cindergretta
06-19-2009, 10:35 PM
Gothard believes in training children. You train them to behave, even infants. :sick Legalistic mean they use the Bible as a sledgehammer to condemn. Well, that is how I see it. :shifty Really it means working from a base of fear and guilt rather than love and grace. :( They are trying to force people to be "good Christians" by appearing to look like "good Christians." It isn't an inward heart issue, but an outward appearance issue. Does that make sense?

ReedleBeetle
06-19-2009, 10:38 PM
I think it looks....um.....legalistic. It reminds me of my Apostolic Christian school i went to but with more "training" involved. I thought that episode made it look like a place to find a husband as well. I do enjoy seeing the Bates and Duggars get together though...you can tell they are great friends!


I'm really not trying to be dumb...I guess I just don't get it. What do you mean by "legalistic" and "training"?

The one episode I saw on the hs looked like us...B is Ball and the older kids do the work on the computer. What does that have to do with the ATI stuff?

I am just trying to process it b/c in all honesty, I guess I just don't get it.


Legalistic in the "must where certain things, no make-up, act this way, worship this way, don't dance, do this, do that" kind of a thing...ATI goes FAR beyond just schooling...it is a culture. The training I mean they are being into training for cheerful all the time and nothing else but a "cheerful countenance and a quiet tone" is acceptable. There are just so many little things I see that make me feel that way...but I have been in a similar culture like I said....so maybe that is why. I would say I was projecting...except I know that it really is that way from waht I have read about Gothard and his ATI program.

ReedleBeetle
06-19-2009, 10:39 PM
Gothard believes in training children. You train them to behave, even infants. :sick Legalistic mean they use the Bible as a sledgehammer to condemn. Well, that is how I see it. :shifty Really it means working from a base of fear and guilt rather than love and grace. :( They are trying to force people to be "good Christians" by appearing to look like "good Christians." It isn't an inward heart issue, but an outward appearance issue. Does that make sense?


WOW! you said that GREAT!

cindergretta
06-19-2009, 10:40 PM
:O Thanks! :hug

sprout
06-19-2009, 10:40 PM
yes, it does make sense. and, thank you for the definitions...I clearly needed them!

I am going to poke around online tomorrow and find out about this "Gothard" person....I am interested to know why he is the way he is.

interesting about the love/fear issue too.

ReedleBeetle
06-19-2009, 10:42 PM
yes, it does make sense. and, thank you for the definitions...I clearly needed them!

I am going to poke around online tomorrow and find out about this "Gothard" person....I am interested to know why he is the way he is.

interesting about the love/fear issue too.


I find it most interesting that he isn't married and isn't a parent...yet makes lots of rules for both.

sprout
06-19-2009, 10:45 PM
really? no kids?

now, that is interesting.

it kind of reminds me of when dh and I went to marriage counseling before we were married so that we could be married and we had to go to a Catholic Priest...who, obviously, was not married.

allisonintx
06-19-2009, 10:45 PM
I think that he views himself as a modern day Paul.

ReedleBeetle
06-19-2009, 10:50 PM
They also teach authoritarianism, which means that for instance, fathers are the authorities of their daughters...they are encouraged to choose their daughters mates before the daughters are allowed to know how is interested...then they are only able to decline or accept based upon the father's relationship wiht the suitor....once married...the new husband becomes her authority. They are also supposed to have as many kids as possible.

cindergretta
06-19-2009, 10:52 PM
I googled Gothard ATI and one of the top links goes to a point by point breakdown of what he teaches and why it isn't Biblically sound or particularly Christian. It was a long read so I only skimmed it, but I saved it to look over more closely later.

Titus2Momof4
06-20-2009, 12:32 AM
I think it looks....um.....legalistic. It reminds me of my Apostolic Christian school i went to but with more "training" involved. I thought that episode made it look like a place to find a husband as well. I do enjoy seeing the Bates and Duggars get together though...you can tell they are great friends!


I'm really not trying to be dumb...I guess I just don't get it. What do you mean by "legalistic" and "training"?

The one episode I saw on the hs looked like us...B is Ball and the older kids do the work on the computer. What does that have to do with the ATI stuff?

I am just trying to process it b/c in all honesty, I guess I just don't get it.


That's because in that episode, the girls never mentioned the "wisdom booklets" (ATI's curriculum) or anything. They only showed a couple of worksheet pages, and mentioned SOS (Switched-On-Schoolhouse). Now, it's possible the Duggars are no longer involved in ATI... I have no idea. But that wasn't mentioned in the episode, which is why you are thinking ATI is so "normal."

Google it, and go to their website. Then check out the Admissions application, and you will see why many people have an aversion to ATI.

(Be sure and take note of some of the rather nosey questions on the application as well... )

allisonintx
06-20-2009, 12:36 AM
umm, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the ATI Midwifery Training Program unit on "Parenting" is none other than "Preparation for Parenting" currently known as "Along the Infant Path" by Gary Ezzo

We can all :sick2 now

sprout
06-20-2009, 06:08 AM
so, apparently "he" wrote a book entitled "The Power of Crying it Out". That pretty much says it all doesn't it.

and, yes, I found the application to be very, very interesting.

jenn3514
06-20-2009, 07:26 AM
It is so hard weeding everything out. I thought the same thing when I saw that episode, but didn't relate it to Gothard until I googled it.

MarynMunchkins
06-20-2009, 07:56 AM
What is good in his materials can be found elsewhere - without all the legalistic garbage that comes with the ATI program. :)

(I did some of it growing up, and knew several people who used it. It's not all horrible, but it's nothing spectacular.)

ReedleBeetle
06-20-2009, 08:21 AM
What is good in his materials can be found elsewhere - without all the legalistic garbage that comes with the ATI program. :)

(I did some of it growing up, and knew several people who used it. It's not all horrible, but it's nothing spectacular.)


I am sure it isn't all bad....truth is always mixed with untruth to make the untruths more palatable.

illinoismommy
06-20-2009, 08:36 AM
I was watching the Duggars on TVLand and it looked like the conference was a lot of fun.

What do you know about it?

and, I think many are against due to the Pearlness of it? but, I didn't see any of that...not, that it is not there....


I saw that episode too and you know what stuck out to me? The overly defined gender rules. Boys climbed things. The girls watched the kids. You could tell even in the language that it was expected that is how it was.

ReedleBeetle
06-20-2009, 08:49 AM
I noticed that too...that was something else that bothered me...not that the girls could climb walls very well in their skirts.

jewelmcjem
06-20-2009, 08:50 AM
My husband did a Gothard seminar or something when he was a teen, something about conflict resolution (Basic something institutes?) or something. (sorry, brain not working yet today), and he poo-poos whenever I say anything anti-Gothard "they're just Gothard-haters". Thank GOD he isn't interested in pursuing it with our kids, but still, it's so weird he doesn't see how his dad used it to hammer him -- he admits his dad hammered him, just not that it's a Gothard thing.

ReedleBeetle
06-20-2009, 08:52 AM
:/ :hugheart

Eowyn
06-20-2009, 09:16 AM
umm, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the ATI Midwifery Training Program unit on "Parenting" is none other than "Preparation for Parenting" currently known as "Along the Infant Path" by Gary Ezzo

We can all :sick2 now


The midwife I used with my first child had gone through this program. Total Ezzo-spewing junk from the baby care portion of her childbirth classes. :sick Thank God she didn't attend my birth. She showed up on day 3 postpartum to ream me out for not behaving as she thought I should during labor. :mad

Peaceful Meadows
06-20-2009, 09:35 AM
so, apparently "he" wrote a book entitled "The Power of Crying it Out". That pretty much says it all doesn't it.

and, yes, I found the application to be very, very interesting.


Well, CIO is very powerful. It teaches infants that they can't trust their parents to comfort them and meet their needs. :cry :sick

I noticed that too...that was something else that bothered me...not that the girls could climb walls very well in their skirts.
Well, ask the "tomboy" girls (for lack of a better term) in the mennonite and Amish churches. They find ways to do that as well as play ball, etc. in dresses. ;)

I would have had a very unhappy childhood if I had to act lady like all the time. I jump off our milk-house roof into snow drifts along with my brothers. I played tackle football with them, etc. I loved being outside and active. While I enjoyed dolls when I was 4 and under, dolls were boring to me once I hit 5 years old and up. Action was fun! I guess that's why I am a mother to all boys. I would do fine with a daughter that was like me but would not know what to do with a "girly" girl. :lol

BTW, my boys played with dolls. Mostly when we had a new baby in the house. They cared for their dolls while I cared for the baby. They also love to help me cook and do house work but those are not "girls" chores in my mind. Rather they are things that one does when they live in a house together as a family. ;)

ReedleBeetle
06-20-2009, 10:23 AM
The skirts of the Mennonite and Amish are much different than the stick straight denim skirts that alot of the Duggar girls wear. ;) I wore those skirts at the Christian school I went to and if the slit wasn't highenough up the front or back (and of course it couldn't be...we had to sew a lot of them down) then they are hard to wakl in let alone climb in.

ShangriLewis
06-20-2009, 11:37 AM
I saw that episode too and you know what stuck out to me? The overly defined gender rules. Boys climbed things. The girls watched the kids. You could tell even in the language that it was expected that is how it was.


I thought the same thing. I was so bummed for the girls. I really did not do well with a group of little kids when I was a teen. My husband did though. He would have been the one helping with the little kids. I would have wanted to do the repelling and stuff outside. I mean just wear shorts under your dress and haul your butt over.

Chris3jam
06-20-2009, 03:59 PM
Preschool and Kindergarten ATI is mostly the same sort of thing you would get in any curriculum, except using Biblical words and stories. As they get older, especially into high school, it is basically a totally Bible based unit study program.
My husband did a Gothard seminar or something when he was a teen, something about conflict resolution (Basic something institutes?) or something. (sorry, brain not working yet today), and he poo-poos whenever I say anything anti-Gothard "they're just Gothard-haters". Thank GOD he isn't interested in pursuing it with our kids, but still, it's so weird he doesn't see how his dad used it to hammer him -- he admits his dad hammered him, just not that it's a Gothard thing.
Conflict Resolution. Institute of Basic Life Principles. I went to many of his seminars. Homeschooling is a must, separation is a must, spanking is a must, and crying it out is a must. The Pearl books are recommended and sold by them. The father is *the* authority . . . . like a pp said, look online at the application and requirements. Yes. . you must attend the conferences every year, and you must be approved.

ArmsOfLove
06-21-2009, 04:23 PM
to me the even bigger issue is that Gothard teaches twisted and false doctrine. He is spiritually abusive to a very high degree.

mommy2abigail
06-22-2009, 06:01 AM
Crystal, could you give some examples of that? I have friends who are very into Pearl, and are considering ATI. I don't know enough about the doctrinal issues to be able to bring it up to them. So far, they think *I* am wrong biblically for not training the Pearl/Gothard way. I haven't seen what Gothard has to say regarding parenting, but it's my understanding they promote Pearl? Thanks.

Chris3jam
06-22-2009, 08:34 AM
Crystal, could you give some examples of that? I have friends who are very into Pearl, and are considering ATI. I don't know enough about the doctrinal issues to be able to bring it up to them. So far, they think *I* am wrong biblically for not training the Pearl/Gothard way. I haven't seen what Gothard has to say regarding parenting, but it's my understanding they promote Pearl? Thanks.


Not Crystal, but one who has the ATI preschool/kindergarten workbooks, and have friends who use ATI (all the way through high school), and the "college" he has started, yes, he promotes the Pearls'. Very much so. He sells their TTUAC and Created to be His Helpmeet.

ArmsOfLove
06-22-2009, 10:00 AM
for one thing he believes in using hermeneutics for "interpreting Scripture" rather than exegesis, which means that despite his insistence on checking in with the original language, he's deciding what it means himself. That is improper interpretation.

He interprets the Old Testament through the eyes of the New, instead of realizing that the Old is the foundation for the new, and argues for interpreting Scripture through what he calls "The Commands of Christ". You can read his list of the 49 Commands of Christ here (breaking link) http://billgothard. com/bill/teaching/commandsofchrist/49commands/

What's especially insidious about this list is he provides a "more understandable word" to "define" each "command" and often it's just something he demands from people--it's not even what Jesus was referring to or how you would properly exegete (remember--he relies on hermeneutics) the command :doh A great example of this is command number 17 Ask, Seek, and Knock—Matthew 7:7–8—Resourcefulness :jawdrop Always be seeking the Lord is distilled to "do it yourself with a puritan work ethic" :jawdrop

I mean, hard work and resourcefulness are great character qualities :tu but they do NOTHING to fulfill the commands of God in Torah as expressed by Jesus :amen

a few other favorites of mine :rolleyes
Despise Not Little Ones—Matthew 18:10—Tolerance
# Go to Offenders—Matthew 18:15—Justice
Deny Yourself—Luke 9:23—Determination
Be a Servant—Matthew 20:26–28—Availability

and a few special gems that leave me :jawdrop because they refer specifically to the Gospel and salvation!
Await My Return—Matthew 24:42–44—Punctuality
Take, Eat, and Drink—Matthew 26:26–27—Thoroughness
Baptize My Disciples—Matthew 28:19—Cautiousness
Receive God’s Power—Luke 24:49—Orderliness
Make Disciples—Matthew 28:20—Flexibility

IOW--here's the Gospel message according to Gothard--the message through which all of Scripture is to be interpreted:

You will be saved if you are: thorough, orderly, cautious, flexible and punctual as I command.

IMO that is nothing short of a false gospel and makes this man a man that anyone with discernment should avoid

deena
06-22-2009, 10:08 AM
umm, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the ATI Midwifery Training Program unit on "Parenting" is none other than "Preparation for Parenting" currently known as "Along the Infant Path" by Gary Ezzo

We can all :sick2 now


The midwife I used with my first child had gone through this program. Total Ezzo-spewing junk from the baby care portion of her childbirth classes. :sick Thank God she didn't attend my birth. She showed up on day 3 postpartum to ream me out for not behaving as she thought I should during labor. :mad


:/ :hug2


Crystal, great post.

ReedleBeetle
06-22-2009, 11:20 AM
Sprout....Did you think your question would be such a biggie? ;)

mommy2abigail
06-22-2009, 08:21 PM
Thanks Crystal and Chris3jam. I wonder if Pearl holds those beliefs too? I am desperate to show them that he is nuts. Our friends dh preaches at a church and spent 2 years devoted to reading his bible, so it's very hard for me (an ignorant gal) to argue with him. And the worst thing is that because he preaches and has a prison ministry and spent so long reading the bible morning to night, my dh tends to believe what he says too... I guess that is also what is fueling my fire to prove my point. Plus, who knows what he is teaching the men at his churches mens groups...

relizabeth
06-22-2009, 08:28 PM
Thanks Crystal and Chris3jam. I wonder if Pearl holds those beliefs too? I am desperate to show them that he is nuts. Our friends dh preaches at a church and spent 2 years devoted to reading his bible, so it's very hard for me (an ignorant gal) to argue with him. And the worst thing is that because he preaches and has a prison ministry and spent so long reading the bible morning to night, my dh tends to believe what he says too... I guess that is also what is fueling my fire to prove my point. Plus, who knows what he is teaching the men at his churches mens groups...


You can be Berean too. You can search the Scriptures just as well as he can. :hug2

Leslie
06-23-2009, 12:12 AM
In the other homeschool forum, someone asked whether homeschooled students went on to homeschool their own kids. I responded:

"The ones I hear who won't homeschool either felt like they missed too much socilaization and were at a disadvantage as an adult in the real world and would never do that to their kids, or had hyper-rigid methods of schooling (and probably parenting to match) and would never do that to their kids. Those I know who were okay with their homeschooling are planning to homeschool."

When I said, "had hyper-rigid methods of schooling (and probably parenting to match)," I was referring mostly to people I've known of who did ATI. The families I've known who were connected with that, when the kids grew up, they rebelled. It wasn't a good experience for them. I think they grow up stifled and feeling the deprivation, and they resent it.

Also, I suspect that a lot of the "weird homeschool" stereotypes of homeschoolers are related to ATI families.

ArmsOfLove
06-23-2009, 12:58 AM
ITA Leslie

Titus2Momof4
06-23-2009, 11:58 AM
Here is the application, for those interested in seeing how invasive it is. (broken link--take out the spaces after each "/" ) http:// ati.iblp.org/ ati/ admissions/ documents/ application.pdf?show=true

Happygrl
06-23-2009, 12:13 PM
Here is the application, for those interested in seeing how invasive it is. (broken link--take out the spaces after each "/" ) http:// ati.iblp.org/ ati/ admissions/ documents/ application.pdf?show=true

:hunh Yea...invasive would be one way to describe that!

Titus2Momof4
06-23-2009, 04:06 PM
Here is the application, for those interested in seeing how invasive it is. (broken link--take out the spaces after each "/" ) http:// ati.iblp.org/ ati/ admissions/ documents/ application.pdf?show=true

:hunh Yea...invasive would be one way to describe that!


And creepy :shiver would be another!

Peaceful Meadows
06-23-2009, 09:10 PM
:shiver

cindergretta
06-23-2009, 11:06 PM
Here is the application, for those interested in seeing how invasive it is. (broken link--take out the spaces after each "/" ) http:// ati.iblp.org/ ati/ admissions/ documents/ application.pdf?show=true

:hunh Yea...invasive would be one way to describe that!


And creepy :shiver would be another!


And :sick . :hunh I don't even know where to go with that. :no2