Help me articulate why shame is "bad"

[Psyche]

Please and thank you :)

[allisonintx]

guilt and shame are the opposite of Grace. They are not of the Lord.

[ShiriChayim]

Shame says there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a person. It does not take learning into account, and turns failure into evidence of your lack of worth. At least, that's how I see it.

[jenn3514]

Yes, that. And I don't think you can set up a child for success while making him feel bad about himself. Which ultimately is the goal of shaming someone.

[MarynMunchkins]

Because people who feel badly act badly. :)

[Libertymommy]

guilt and shame are the opposite of Grace. They are not of the Lord.


:yes

[mommylove]

Shame says there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a person. It does not take learning into account, and turns failure into evidence of your lack of worth. At least, that's how I see it.


great answer. I'm going to have to memorize this for my Mom when telling her not to shame my son like she did me.

[mommy2keeg]

Shame says there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a person. It does not take learning into account, and turns failure into evidence of your lack of worth. At least, that's how I see it.


great answer. I'm going to have to memorize this for my Mom when telling her not to shame my son like she did me.


ITA! That is a great answer!!

[tigerlily]

But is there a time for shame.

I'm thinking something similar to guilt, and of course not for littles -- only for older kids and adults.

Not that we should shame them, but that feeling shame is not necessarily a negative? :think

[mommy2keeg]

Because people who feel badly act badly. :)


I actually said this during bible study the other night. Our bible study is going through the book Captivating. One of the ladies is really struggling with going home and being with her family because she has been hurt so much by one of her sisters. Anyway, I was trying to illustrate to her that it isn't always about the person they are shaming, but rather themselves. I said, "I've been noticing with my kids that when they feel bad, they act bad. Maybe your sister is the same way. She feels so bad, the only way to release that is to act bad to others." She appreciated it so much!
I thought of this board as I was sharing thoughts with her. :gcm

[ShiriChayim]

But is there a time for shame.

I'm thinking something similar to guilt, and of course not for littles -- only for older kids and adults.

Not that we should shame them, but that feeling shame is not necessarily a negative? :think
I don't think so. I tend to think there is a difference between guilt and shame, and while guilt may have a place in God's conviction of us, I don't think it is my job as a mother to try to get my children to "feel" it. A really big lightbulb moment for me is that I am not responsible for how my children feel, I am responsible to help them learn to identify those feelings and learn to act appropriately on them. Guilt (or shame) has no place in my parenting because I cannot force my child to feel something, so it sets up a frustrating dynamic for all of us, and tends to distract from the actual issues.

[GrowingInGrace]

Because it doesn't work without damaging the child

This is a basic fundamental fact from any good human development stance.

"One key difference between authoritarian and authoritative parenting is in the dimension of psychological control [such practices include guilt induction, withdrawal of love, or shaming]. Both authoritarian and authoritative parents place high demands on their children and expect their children to behave appropriately and obey parental rules. Authoritarian parents, however, also expect their children to accept their judgments, values, and goals without questioning. In contrast, authoritative parents are more open to give and take with their children and make greater use of explanations. Thus, although authoritative and authoritarian parents are equally high in behavioral control, authoritative parents tend to be low in psychological control, while authoritarian parents tend to be high".

And about the outcomes of children from authoritarian parenting:

"Children and adolescents from authoritarian families (high in demandingness, but low in responsiveness) tend to perform moderately well in school and be uninvolved in problem behavior, but they have poorer social skills, lower self-esteem, and higher levels of depression. "


To define authoritative parenting (which is what I firmly believe GBD is fundamentally about)

Authoritative parents are both demanding and responsive. "They monitor and impart clear standards for their children’s conduct. They are assertive, but not intrusive and restrictive. Their disciplinary methods are supportive, rather than punitive. They want their children to be assertive as well as socially responsible, and self-regulated as well as cooperative" (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62).

[ArmsOfLove]

Guilt is what we experience when *we* feel badly for something *we* did. We realize we were wrong and we regret the action. It can be a *wonderful* motivator for change :yes As I tell my children, "Sorry means you stop."

Shame is externally imposed and is a paralyzing emotion. It is a burden and not based on internal motivation or understanding. It says "YOU are wrong" and ties personhood too closely to actions. There is never a place for it.

When someone attempts to impose or force guilt the result is shame. And there is never a place for shame.

If an older child/teen does not feel guilt and does not experience empathy that is a problem that I would seek an evaluation/outside help for. Trying to force it will only compound whatever problems there already are.

[tigerlily]

I didn't mean trying to make someone feel shamed :no

I was just thinking of times in my life I felt shamed -- I did try to change what I was doing. :shrug I can't remember if I was always "shamed" by someone else in every situation.

So you're saying shame can't be self-induced, but happens when an outside source (usually and authority) is attempting to make us feel bad for our actions in an attempt to get us to change, right? :scratch

[Ellen]

My friend who has been living as a missionary in Jordan made a contrast between guilt and shame that I found interesting. Apparently Western cultures, which focus more on the individual, tend to emphasize guilt. Parents appeal to guilt to motivate their kids, and in hearing the gospel, she says westerners especially respond to verses about forgiveness and removal of guilt. Eastern cultures that are more communal tend to appeal more to shame--as in, when you act badly, you bring shame on your family / community. She says these people respond especially to Bible verses about removal of shame (I can't remember what word she used as a corrolary to forgiveness that would be the opposite of shame).

Both guilt and shame are consequences of sin and can be used by Satan to keep us in bondage. We need to be delivered from both.

[Ellen]

One more thought: I think I would answer that, yes, there is a place for shame in the sense that we rightly feel both guilty and ashamed before God when we sin. But God doesn't want to leave us in our guilt and shame.

[mamaKristin]

When we are using shame to change someone's behavior, we are manipulating them through our perception of how they should feel. It's neither kind, nor effective. Shaming a child can cause them to feel insecure, thus leading to less "good" behavior.