Help me brainstorm natural consequences, please?

[nadezhda]

Here's the low-down: Our 4 yo DS has really been acting out in church lately: kneeling on the pew & making faces at the people behind him, talking out loud during announcements, throwing things :blush and just generally being a disruptive, active 4yo boy. The problem lies in the fact that DH the pastor (hence, he's up on the platform giving announcements/leading singing) and I'm the pianist (so I'm up front @ the piano), so DS is sitting with another adult during the service (the adult varies, but it's one of 2 older ladies who are also children's class teachers). The kids are only in the "big" service for maybe 10 minutes during singing/announcements/prayer/offering, and then they're dismissed to go to children's church. For those 10 minutes, we expect our children (our nearly 6 yo DD doesn't have any problems at all, unless she's sitting w/DS, so we split them up) to sing the songs (I know they don't know all of them, but I'm working on teaching them the words) and sit quietly (not STILL, just quiet, lol!) for the few minutes Daddy needs to make announcements to the church. I've tried asking DS to listen & tell me how many times Daddy says a certain word & other "games" he can "play" sitting in the pew, but to no avail.

DH is still in "spank mode" so that's his answer: "If you misbehave in the service again, you'll get a spanking when you get home." :hunh Uh, but by the time we get home, DS will have forgotten why he's getting spanked! :yes2 DH has a solution for that, too: "I'll just remind him." :doh

Honestly, though, my suggestion isn't much better: "If you misbehave during announcements, you won't be allowed to go play with Miss J. for children's church. You'll have to sit with mommy for the whole service." Yeah, THAT'S going to help. Good call, there, Mom. :rolleyes

So, what WOULD the natural consequences be? Sitting on the platform w/Daddy or at the piano w/Mommy don't seem like good ideas, either. ;) And before you suggest it, no, there's no one else who plays piano, and only 1 other person plays guitar & he's not comfortable accompanying the song service. :sigh And the church members are very traditional, so canned music probably isn't an option, either.

:help

[ziggyplaid]

I don't have any advice, unfortunately, but I wanted to let you know I've been there! DH was the preacher for 4 years while I played the piano. Although we didn't have a four year old, we had a two year old who would run around the sanctuary and scream and I had no idea what to do about it! :hug2

[Joanne]

First, I have to admit that I had a GBD giggle at your expense. :O Please forgive me, but when I read your subject line, my first thought - after years of teaching GBD - is that if you have to brainstorm them, they aren't natural consequences!

Natural consequences "happen" as a result of his action; they don't need to be manufactured. Natural consequences in this circumstance include:

1) Mom and Dad being angry and disappointed
2) People at church labeling him as "disruptive"

What you are looking for are related, logical, imposed consequences. They would be appropriate for his age and the situation.

Here's the low-down: Our 4 yo DS has really been acting out in church lately: kneeling on the pew & making faces at the people behind him, talking out loud during announcements, throwing things and just generally being a disruptive, active 4yo boy. The problem lies in the fact that DH the pastor (hence, he's up on the platform giving announcements/leading singing) and I'm the pianist (so I'm up front @ the piano), so DS is sitting with another adult during the service (the adult varies, but it's one of 2 older ladies who are also children's class teachers).

The best solution might be to designate one trusted person to sit with him and give him "one chance". He gets "one chance" during the 10 minutes to still, face front, hands to self, voice quiet. If he blows the one chance, he gets promptly removed until it's time to go to Children's Church. The "real world" reality is that if you can't behave appropriately in a public setting, you must leave until you can.

A proactive approach would be to practice church at home each day. This gives him time and a safe, less emotional environment to develop the habit of respectful attention. Start with one minute, adding a minute every couple of days. You can even "multitask" it to use it as a prayer list, gratitude time, short devotional.

What you are describing in a common situation for kids. Time will, indeed, solve the problem. By then, you'll be here posting about something else. Ask me how I know. ;)

[nadezhda]

First, I have to admit that I had a GBD giggle at your expense. :O Please forgive me, but when I read your subject line, my first thought - after years of teaching GBD - is that if you have to brainstorm them, they aren't natural consequences!

Natural consequences "happen" as a result of his action; they don't need to be manufactured. Natural consequences in this circumstance include:

1) Mom and Dad being angry and disappointed
2) People at church labeling him as "disruptive"

What you are looking for are related, logical, imposed consequences. They would be appropriate for his age and the situation.

Sorry, I'm still getting used to the correct terminology! :O Glad I was good for a giggle, though. ;)

A proactive approach would be to practice church at home each day. This gives him time and a safe, less emotional environment to develop the habit of respectful attention. Start with one minute, adding a minute every couple of days. You can even "multitask" it to use it as a prayer list, gratitude time, short devotional.

Boy, now I feel really silly for not having thought of this myself. :doh It's something that will definitely click w/my imaginative kids (can't hurt the 6 yo to review, right?). :yes I'll also talk w/Miss J. (who is the one DS usually sits with) and see about having her take him out after his one warning. I'm just concerned that DH will see this as a "reward"...in his mind, DS misbehaves, so DS gets to leave for children's church early? :scratch Obviously, I'd have her take DS out to the foyer rather than to class, but I guarantee you this will be DH's line of thought. How to explain this to a maddeningly logical, corporal person?

Oh, and totally OT, but your DS's quote had me :spit :haha Gotta learn not to drink & post, lol!

[ArmsOfLove]

I'm just concerned that DH will see this as a "reward"...in his mind, DS misbehaves, so DS gets to leave for children's church early?this is a thought from adversarial thinking and, ironically, it's just not true :shrug

I have treated all my children with the expectation that when they are ready they will do certain things--that not being successful means they are not ready. Staying and sitting quietly during certain parts of church service; helping with grocery shopping; going with me to certain places . . . these are things you do when you are ready and not being ready means you don't get to do them.

Being removed from the service; taken from the grocery store; not allowed to go here or there is not a reward--AND it's not a punishment. It means you have not proven yourself ready to be successful in these places.

And I can assure you that presented this way my children want to be successful--children are born social and want to fit in and meet even high expectations.

If he is taken out with a "you are not able to be quiet in the service right now. You can try again next week." common sense approach he will see staying quietly as the goal to be achieved. :heart There doesn't need to be any shaming (in fact, shaming will detract from the whole lesson) or anything. And unless you tell a child "well now you're getting what you want" I really don't believe they get that idea. We frame their experiences--that's a lot of power

[nadezhda]

As an educator, I completely understand the whole readiness concept! :yes I guess I just relate better to kids than adults, b/c I can seem to explain it to DH in a way he grasps. :scratch

We frame their experiences--that's a lot of power.

:yes :pray4

[ArmsOfLove]

it's because in a punitive mindset he is thinking that what they want is "to get their way" when what they really want is "to be socially appropriate and accepted in their family and community". When you realize what their true desire is it's easier to understand :)

[canadiyank]

I'm our church's pianist, too, and my dh plays bass, so we have the same issue of having someone else watching my oldest while we're on the platform. At times where my dd was not able to handle being with other people for whatever reason, she came and sat with me on the piano bench. :) I have very fond memories of sitting with my "tall friend Beth" on the organ bench at church. Being able to be near mom and me providing instant feedback, combined with being in the public eye (our church has the musicians in the front whereas the one I grew up in has them at the back), helped immensely. Just another idea.

I like the idea of being taken out with disruptive, too, and I think that would help the person who's in charge, being able to "do something" about the behaviour.

What denomination are you guys? Neat to meet another church musician. :)

[nadezhda]

I'm our church's pianist, too, and my dh plays bass, so we have the same issue of having someone else watching my oldest while we're on the platform. At times where my dd was not able to handle being with other people for whatever reason, she came and sat with me on the piano bench. :) I have very fond memories of sitting with my "tall friend Beth" on the organ bench at church. Being able to be near mom and me providing instant feedback, combined with being in the public eye (our church has the musicians in the front whereas the one I grew up in has them at the back), helped immensely. Just another idea.

I like the idea of being taken out with disruptive, too, and I think that would help the person who's in charge, being able to "do something" about the behaviour.

What denomination are you guys? Neat to meet another church musician. :)


Honestly, there have been a few times when DS came & sat on the piano bench w/me...problem is, I'm not really a pianist. My proficiency is voice, so I'm not 100% comfortable playing the piano. Having DS there (talking to me, no less..."Can I push a note, Mommy? What are you playing now? Why won't you talk to me?") is such a distraction for me. I realize none of the church members can hear him, but he starts talking, and I start making mistakes. :yes

We're Baptist, FWIW. Although, I'm Baptist by birth & marriage...technically, I call myself a "Biblical literalist," b/c I've met some Baptists I really don't agree with!

[canadiyank]

Ah, I can see how that would be distracting. :yes I can play and hold a conversation at the same time, so it doesn't bother me, although she's usually pretty quiet, like I said, b/c she's in the public eye. Is there anyone else who can play for a couple months while you sat with him and taught him church expectations? How about if you practiced a song at home or at church with him on the bench with you. Try starting with one verse, then two, etc. until he can sit through a set? Maybe not something you want to pursue, just a thought. :)