Spin off: Home school vs. public school at home

[Teacher Mom]

I wrote in the other post that virtual school is NOT home schooling. It is public schooling at home. It's like the public school giving your child all their work to be done as homework.

I guess what I am trying to say is that when you start saying that virtual school is home school, people get really confused. That IS the goal of the NEA. Then as more and more people sign up for a virtual school, accepting the requests to report in to the public school, to be governed by the district/state/federal government, pretty soon the freedom to be able to chose to home educate your child as you see fit will be less and less. If our society begins to believe that public school at home is home schooling we will be in trouble.

Trying to give an example. When people I know are taking classes for college at home on their computer, they never say they are home schooling. They say they are taking college courses- at home. Virtual Schools are taking public school classes- at home. They have different laws to follow than those who chose to home educate their children. No matter what kind of home schooler you are, be it, school at home, relaxed, unschooler, ecclectic...you are still a home schooler. You do not have to follow the same laws that those who do public school at home.

Again, I am coming from the point of trying to preserve the freedom to be able to chose to home educate your child as YOU see fit. When the public schools introduced this and called it homeschooling, they knew exactly what they were doing. It does not fall under the same guidelines that home schooling families follow. They never liked families choosing home schooling back in the 70's and 80's and many, many families stood up for the rights we have today.

I guess I just wish that people would say that they are doing public school at home. :shrug It's not just a game of semantics. It is important to keep them separate to maintain the freedoms that home schooling families enjoy.

[milkmommy]

We may in the future choose to use a local virtual academy. I'll probably say were homeschooling in the general sense that we are having school at our home but I do agree with you about the diffrence. We just might at least start out with such a way because DH wont agree to another way but I know him he will VERY quickly want to work and a diffrent pace and set of pirorties than the virtual academy but at lass tiny steps...

Deanna

[milkmommy]

I guess I just wish that people would say that they are doing public school at home. don't know/shrug It's not just a game of semantics. It is important to keep them separate to maintain the freedoms that home schooling families enjoy.

Just so I understand what exactly is threatened from say your true HS freedoms buy a virtual schooler saying they are a homeschooler. I see the VERY distint diffrence I just dont see where one threatens the other. Turly asking as were slowing beging the journey ourselfs. :)

Deanna

[HomeWithMyBabies]

I can understand and appreciate the difference and as I learn more about homeschooling I can see why someone would be passionate about keeping the two ideas distinct. There is a lot of history there that I am just learning.

However I think when most people think of homeschooling it refers to the actual environment rather than the material or its source. I'm not sure that's totally inaccurate...and I think some parents who do a virtual school picked it not just for their child to be at home but because of the curriculum.

Like I said I can understand wanting to highlight the difference given the history but I'd hate for people to feel divided about it. Just :twocents from a hs newbie.

[ArmsOfLove]

I guess I just wish that people would say that they are doing public school at home. don't know/shrug It's not just a game of semantics. It is important to keep them separate to maintain the freedoms that home schooling families enjoy.

Just so I understand what exactly is threatened from say your true HS freedoms buy a virtual schooler saying they are a homeschooler. I see the VERY distint diffrence I just dont see where one threatens the other. Turly asking as were slowing beging the journey ourselfs. :)

Deanna
It has to do with cultural perception more than anything. I have no problem with people using/doing virtual academies. But it's not homeschooling. With homeschooling there is a freedom to choose my own curriculums and the responsibility that comes with it; the responsibility to set our course for education; the opportunity to be delight driven; so many things that are important to me and not available in public school settings. The environment is only one aspect of homeschooling to me. I don't call Virtual Academy homeschooling :shrug I call it Virtual Academy.

[milkmommy]

I agree Crystal.. and I'd also say homeschooler depending on my audience like talking with my general neighbors where as I'm just stating we do our school time at our house and where as I know they just dont get or frankly care about the diffrence. To say you I'd say we use a Virtual academy and be comfortable and confident you'd perfectly understand what that means. For me Virtual schooling may be a for our family a needing sort of stepping stone I personally can not see myself or my child doing the riggors of a VA year after year.

Deanna

[ArmsOfLove]

:yes

I think a lot of people see it as a transition tool.

[AdrienneQW]

ITA with the OP. It's not that Virtual Academies don't have a place in the educational landscape - they do. :yes But being enrolled in a public school by virtue of "distance learning" is not the same as homeschooling. They are distinct, and it is not just an issue of semantics.

[Blue Savannah]

But just TRY to put yourself in the place of a mama who may not be as confident as you are to just jump out on her own, or who may not be able to afford to buy materials to homeschool. Then how does "You're not REALLY a homeschooler" sound?

[milkmommy]

Though I think as a whole the transistion will be a lot harder than the umm real deal :giggle

FWIW as well I'm not anti puplic schooling as I'm not against the idea of a classroom with teachers and a more sctructred cicrulum that will have to meet the needs of multiple students at once and the unique challanges that presents.. I thing of say my mother whos parents spoke little English whom didn't read and how thankful they were to have teachers for there children.. However I don't like the burcuracy thats been overtaking the "PS" system for many generations now. The one that limits good hard working teachers the ability to well teach that places standarize test teaching and getting there numbers for federal funding more important that really doing whats best to try to reach as many students as they can adecmically. Sad really..
Deanna
Deanna

[MamaCare]

:yes My son attends Connections Academy, and when folks ask me about his "homeschooling" I try to correct their impression: yes, he's home, but he's doing virtual school. They have the whole curriculum planned out, he has a teacher for each subject, assignments he must submit, etc.
I have certain flexibility as far as what additional work I require (other than submitted assignments) and *when* he does the work, but that's about it. Waaayyy different than homeschooling.

[milkmommy]

A question though.. In as far as GCM forums where would a virtual schooler belong?

Deanna

[BearyBlessed]

I must say, I agree with Teacher Mom. And my family was one of those that fought for the rights of hs'ers in my home state back in the 80's. :rockon

[ArmsOfLove]

A question though.. In as far as GCM forums where would a virtual schooler belong?

Deanna
They have always been welcomed in the HS forum :) You won't be able to participate so much in curriculum choices, but you deal with issues about having your child home all the time and providing the socialization ;)

[Ima LeShalosh]

I wrote in the other post that virtual school is NOT home schooling. It is public schooling at home. It's like the public school giving your child all their work to be done as homework.

This is the second time you have made this comment and this is the second time that a pang of hurt shot through my heart. You are free to express your opinion mama..but I want to gently ask that you rethink this statement and consider rephrasing it or not say it anymore because it is not true and it is really really hurtful to those of us that chose this route. It seems venomous.

I addressed this comment in the other thread..but I will say it again. VSing is not sitting your child down with homework and telling him to do it. You have no idea the amount of teaching and prep time there is to VSing. I had to prepare at least 45min every single night to be ready for the next day's lessons...then I had to sit in front of my child every day...5 days a week...4 hours a day and instruct him and teach him as if I were teaching a classroom full of 1st graders. It was intense...it was hard and it was tiring. It was not an easy task and your statement really makes me feel as though everything I poured into this and my child was somehow substandard and made me feel very belittled as a homeschooling mom.

I am not trying to be snarky...and I am not mad..but I honestly was up until 2am this morning dwelling on this statement and trying to assign positive intent. I KNOW you are not trying to be hurtful or venomous and I know that it is more of an irritation of how the government is working to chip away at all the rights that HSers have worked to gain. I just know that if I find hurt in these words, being a mom that is now anti-VSing...then how must the mom who is still VSing or preparing to VS feeling


A question though.. In as far as GCM forums where would a virtual schooler belong?

Deanna

LOL...yeah...I had NO niche with schooling here. I was not *really* welcomed to come in here because it was quite evident how the HSing public felt about my choice to VS...I had not voice in the other forum because I was HSing to them...so there was not place to fit in or get support. It was a hard place to be in and now I can see how the delayed/selective vaxers feel kind of.

[Mamaka]

We virtual school and semantics-wise, it depends on my audience whether I correct the perception of homeschooling vs. virtual schooling :shrug

In our state the p.s. sponsored VA has elements of support for hs'ers. We don't have to follow the curriculum exactly. We don't have to take all the courses. We can opt out of state testing. We can be hs'ers choosing one element of the curriculum they offer. This year w/ds as a kindergartener we've done the whole curriculum. Next year, as a 2nd grader (mama brag warning ;) he's already through K and into 1st grade stuff) we'll probably only do 2 subjects from the VA and only because I feel the curriculum is the strongest out there. But I know other VA's don't have that kind of freedom and it really depends on the state.

[Peaceful Meadows]

I guess I am the one that caused this spin off because I said:
they are different but both are homeschooling because you are teaching your child at home.

My difintion of homeschooling is: "Teaching your child at home." The VA parents are doing that so IMO they are homeschooling.
I understand where you are coming from because I do feel that the VAs take too much control and I personally do not like them and would *never* *ever* utilize them myself.

BUT I have compassion on those that use them. The people I know that use them feel that they give them more freedom than ps would. They can teach their child Bible and can give their opinions on the topics that they are teaching. They can say, "We don't believe that because...." They would have never been able to do that if their child was off at PS with another teacher teaching them.

The people I know IRL that use them are very alone. The PS hate them because they are using the tax $$ that the public schools want put towards their schools and the homeschoolers "hate" them because the feel that they will cause them to loose their freedoms. These families need support and they really don't get any support. They are very, very, very alone. That is where my post on the other thread was coming from.

[Ima LeShalosh]

I guess I am the one that caused this spin off because I said:
they are different but both are homeschooling because you are teaching your child at home.

The people I know IRL that use them are very alone. The PS hate them because they are using the tax $$ that the public schools want put towards their schools and the homeschoolers "hate" them because the feel that they will cause them to loose their freedoms. These families need support and they really don't get any support. They are very, very, very alone. That is where my post on the other thread was coming from.

Absolutely....it was very lonely feeling and not a fun place to be in the middle of.

[loveberry]

I was thinking our terms are poor. There are a lot more situations out there than the terms can cover. In generalities, I'd say there is child-led-learning, parent-led-learning, and institutionally-led-learning. And those can happen at home or in a building somewhere or in someone's house in a big group or whatever.

I think for the purposes of the forums here, anyone who is educating their child(ren) under their own roof or in a group of other parents educating their kids under rotating roofs, that's homeschooling. It comes with the same set of power struggles, housework/life/money/littler kids/social issues/time, etc for all educational types. We are here (IMO) to talk curriculum and such to some extent, but more to figure out how to be with our kids 24/7 in a culture that sees that as anything from less than ideal to fully damaging and destructive. To find successful ways to navigate a day with a kid you are tired of and don't particularly enjoy today. To biuld full, well-rounded healthy lives with our kids of all ages and stages. I think that definitely encompasses a VA mom every bit as much as a HSing curriculum mom and even us wildcard unschoolers.

For the purposes of talking to the rest of the world, safeguarding freedoms, etc, we need better terminology. :/

[Teacher Mom]

I am not trying to be snarky...and I am not mad..but I honestly was up until 2am this morning dwelling on this statement and trying to assign positive intent. I KNOW you are not trying to be hurtful or venomous and I know that it is more of an irritation of how the government is working to chip away at all the rights that HSers have worked to gain. I just know that if I find hurt in these words, being a mom that is now anti-VSing...then how must the mom who is still VSing or preparing to VS feeling


:hug :hug :hug :hug

thank you for trying to assign positive intent because I did not mean to hurt you or anyone.

I could hear the hurt and pain in your post and it just makes me angry that the requirements the public schools impose are such that make moms lose their confidence in their ability to teach their own child. You are their mother. Of course, you can teach your own child. You have been doing it all along. You do not need a degree in order to do that. You are their teacher.

As Crystal said in the other thread (after this one was started), this IS why the public schools have did this. Sadly when people are deciding to home school or not, they will call their local school or state for information. That is the last place you should be calling. They are not going to tell you the laws of home schooling because odds are they do not even know. It is HARD to find the information needed. I remember. I never heard of HSLDA. I didn't have the internet yet. I felt like a fish out of water trying to learn about something that no one seemed to know anything about. The only home schooling family I knew used BJU and I did not want to use that. I remember asking her who I had to contact to get "permission" to teach my kids.

I finally learned of a group from my local library. Then I went to so many meetings. I learned from veteran home schooling families who were passing the torch so to speak. I always thought, kids turn five, I need to register them. Off they go. I never knew I could keep them at home. This is a freedom that the government is trying to change over time by calling it the same name that home schoolers who did it on their own have been using for over 30 years in our countries current history. Ok. Current. History. I just made myself laugh. :O

I hope that I am making more sense about this. Hearing these families talk about how superintendants used to make their lives awful, just awful is why I want to make sure that more people understand the distinction.

[Leslie]

Hearing these families talk about how superintendants used to make their lives awful, just awful is why I want to make sure that more people understand the distinction.


I understand what you're saying - I would hate for a mom to have a bad experience with a virtual school and think, "This is homeschooling? This sure isn't what it's cracked up to be!" Homeschooling can be so much more.

[ArmsOfLove]

Hearing these families talk about how superintendants used to make their lives awful, just awful is why I want to make sure that more people understand the distinction.


I understand what you're saying - I would hate for a mom to have a bad experience with a virtual school and think, "This is homeschooling? This sure isn't what it's cracked up to be!" Homeschooling can be so much more.
:yes2 And . . . "I *can't* do it without their help--this is too hard."

Add in the family who assumes it *should* be VA and you must be a renegade.

Or the well meaning neighbor who asks how the children did on their tests and then is :hunh :/ :scratch that you don't have oversight.

The potential complications are many.

[Mamaka]

I could hear the hurt and pain in your post and it just makes me angry that the requirements the public schools impose are such that make moms lose their confidence in their ability to teach their own child. You are their mother. Of course, you can teach your own child. You have been doing it all along. You do not need a degree in order to do that. You are their teacher.


I think, though, that you're making a dangerous assumption (or at least communicating an assumption) that all or most VA families are choosing to virtual school because of lack of confidence or lack of education about hsing or because they don't realize what their choices are or think hsing is too hard. Our family is making an educated choice to VS at this time in our lives; many of the other VS families that I've met are also making similar educated choices. Some are not, but for the most part our experience has shown that VS families do their homework about their schooling options.

Like Michelle said earlier, being a vs'er can be a tough choice to make because hs'ers tend to look down on you and you don't fit in w/ps'ers. I missed the other thread about this, but can see where vs families might feel hurt about the tone expressed here, it's like we're less because we vs. :shrug I'm guessing that's not what you're meaning to communicate but I can see where it might feel that way.

[Heather Micaela]

:yes2 Many people have felt the same about charters. I am blessed *for now* to be in a charter that is rather free in what curriculum I choose an how I choose to teach it. Yet I struggle and pray about the decision to stay in and for how long. EventuallyI want to be totaly independant, but until that time I very much think that I do, infact, homeschool. (I understand virtual schools a lot have more control though.) But I am aware of the freedoms I gave up.


My reasons for this choice are varied, but are based on money, the need for someone else to keep my ADD self structured, compromise with dh, and other things. Deep down I much prefer the idea of independent HS - I am also easily "hated" by homeschoolers and public schoolers alike. :( I have to let it go, though; technically NO ONE in my state homeschools. You are either in a public or private school. All that varies is how large that private school is and what is done through that school.

However as much as I am not a fan of the PS system, I do not buy in completely to the conspiacy about the virtuals and charters. I am not convinced that they are attempting to chip away at rights we have by having virtual or charter schools, what *I* see is them wanting a peice of the pie and HS is popular. Yes, so they get people to do a virtual or charter who otherwise might have "gone it alone." (And that is very unfortunate. I keep praying for some sort of voucher that would allow low income people to HS without too many strings.) But I see that as different than eroding a parent's right to HSing in the true sense.

edited for grammer and clarifaction of a few garbled sentences.

[Teribear]

Here's the thing...I believe that ALL forms of alternative education (not public/private brick and mortar schooling) should be available and encouraged. Each one meets a set of needs and combined they provide a rich set of opportunities to educate our children in the way we deem best. The problem I (and possibly others here) have with calling all schooling that takes place in the home "homeschooling" is that it blurs the distinctions and puts those of us who are opposed to government controlled schooling at risk of seeing the freedoms that the pioneers of this movement worked so hard for eroded away. HSLDA...for all the good things they do...are too in bed with the ideals of the NEA to suit me. I think it is telling of the blurring that Mike Huckabee can be endorsed simultaneously by both groups. When I say the VA's are not homeschooling it is because it is CRITICAL to maintaining my freedoms as a homeschooler to be distinct about what each type of alternative education actually IS and is not. As a homeschooler I am saying that my child's education is 100% MY concern and responsibility. I do not accept the government's assertion that because my child is some arbitrary age I must now turn their education over to the state in any way shape form or fashion. I don't cast stones at those who choose to use VA's I think that for some they can be a wonderful educational choice but they are NOT homeschooling. They're just not. Any time you have to be accountable to another entity regarding the content or method you are using alternative schooling, sometimes in the home sometimes not...sometimes part time in the home and part time not. The program I teach in says that "we're still homeschooling"...No...we're not...we make the assignments, we assign the grades and we send home a grade report to the parents. That's not homeschooling, even if they are at home 3 days out of the week. Its a wonderful alternative program to public schooling but it is, in reality, an alternative private school. Its not "less than" homeschooling...but it IS different.

[ArmsOfLove]

Here's the thing...I believe that ALL forms of alternative education (not public/private brick and mortar schooling) should be available and encouraged. Each one meets a set of needs and combined they provide a rich set of opportunities to educate our children in the way we deem best. The problem I (and possibly others here) have with calling all schooling that takes place in the home "homeschooling" is that it blurs the distinctions and puts those of us who are opposed to government controlled schooling at risk of seeing the freedoms that the pioneers of this movement worked so hard for eroded away. HSLDA...for all the good things they do...are too in bed with the ideals of the NEA to suit me. I think it is telling of the blurring that Mike Huckabee can be endorsed simultaneously by both groups. When I say the VA's are not homeschooling it is because it is CRITICAL to maintaining my freedoms as a homeschooler to be distinct about what each type of alternative education actually IS and is not. As a homeschooler I am saying that my child's education is 100% MY concern and responsibility. I do not accept the government's assertion that because my child is some arbitrary age I must now turn their education over to the state in any way shape form or fashion. I don't cast stones at those who choose to use VA's I think that for some they can be a wonderful educational choice but they are NOT homeschooling. They're just not. Any time you have to be accountable to another entity regarding the content or method you are using alternative schooling, sometimes in the home sometimes not...sometimes part time in the home and part time not. The program I teach in says that "we're still homeschooling"...No...we're not...we make the assignments, we assign the grades and we send home a grade report to the parents. That's not homeschooling, even if they are at home 3 days out of the week. Its a wonderful alternative program to public schooling but it is, in reality, an alternative private school. Its not "less than" homeschooling...but it IS different.
:yes

[AdrienneQW]

I believe that ALL forms of alternative education (not public/private brick and mortar schooling) should be available and encouraged. Each one meets a set of needs and combined they provide a rich set of opportunities to educate our children in the way we deem best. The problem I (and possibly others here) have with calling all schooling that takes place in the home "homeschooling" is that it blurs the distinctions and puts those of us who are opposed to government controlled schooling at risk of seeing the freedoms that the pioneers of this movement worked so hard for eroded away. HSLDA...for all the good things they do...are too in bed with the ideals of the NEA to suit me. I think it is telling of the blurring that Mike Huckabee can be endorsed simultaneously by both groups. When I say the VA's are not homeschooling it is because it is CRITICAL to maintaining my freedoms as a homeschooler to be distinct about what each type of alternative education actually IS and is not. As a homeschooler I am saying that my child's education is 100% MY concern and responsibility. I do not accept the government's assertion that because my child is some arbitrary age I must now turn their education over to the state in any way shape form or fashion. I don't cast stones at those who choose to use VA's I think that for some they can be a wonderful educational choice but they are NOT homeschooling.

That. :yes

<donning my well-worn I Love Terri hat>

[Heather Micaela]

I do not accept the government's assertion that because my child is some arbitrary age I must now turn their education over to the state in any way shape form or fashion.I understand that and esentially agree.

Still, in many states you have to report to the govt in some fashion or other. Are parents in those states not truly homeschooling?

My biggest concern is when those who use "alternative school" are looked down upon or not included in HS circles as a result of how one labels it. There is a mom at my congregation who was open and friendlyto me when I talked about HSing my child. And she doesn't doesnt seem to mind those in private or public. But when she found out I was in a charter she pretty much turned on me :no2 And some groups seriously wont let you in. I am not talking about th HSLDA and its legal protection, I get THAT. I mean meetings and clubs where I am excluded from getting valuable advice and fellowship simply because of where my curriculum comes from.

That is why I hate making such distictions. :( I wish instead we would just use words like "idenpendent HSing" "HS through a VA" or whatever. That way the difference is noted, but it does not become a way to wage war against each other.

[ArmsOfLove]

Heather, I think it's hateful when people who made a prayerful and educated choice for the overall best interests of their family become the recipients of the strong feelings people have about movements or institutions :( We've warmly welcomed people into our homeschool coop who do VA. Their children are home, they need socializing opportunities, and they support "pulling out"of the public school *system*. Great :tu

I think this is one of those areas where theory may never see eye to eye but we have to live together as sisters in the Lord and I will never tell any of you that you are "less than" for making a different educational choice. I hope no one hears that in my thoughts about the motivation and concerns I see with VA's being offered. :grouphug

I agree with several who have indicated we just don't have an adequate vocabulary for it all :yes

[Heather Micaela]

Heather, I think it's hateful when people who made a prayerful and educated choice for the overall best interests of their family become the recipients of the strong feelings people have about movements or institutions :( We've warmly welcomed people into our homeschool coop who do VA. Their children are home, they need socializing opportunities, and they support "pulling out"of the public school *system*. Great :tu

I think this is one of those areas where theory may never see eye to eye but we have to live together as sisters in the Lord and I will never tell any of you that you are "less than" for making a different educational choice. I hope no one hears that in my thoughts about the motivation and concerns I see with VA's being offered. :grouphug

I agree with several who have indicated we just don't have an adequate vocabulary for it all :yes

I have never felt the judement against *me* here. :hug Not even on this particular thread. We all have strong opinons on what we think is best. And I am one of the odballs schooling against my ideal theory because of other ideals I have (family unity, etc.)

It is a very sad and loney place to be when somehow a parent judges me as if I am singlehandendly going to make someone come and confiscate their chilren for HS - or worse that I am immoral and outside God's will for what I do. And on a lesser scale it hurts to be excluded because I dont "really" HS - focusing on the differences rather than the similarites.

So I guess all that is to say that I agree. We need to define 100% parent led HS (As much as is allowed by the sate) in a way that is distinct from other parents who school from home in some degree. I even understanding wanting a place to feel safe in the uniquness of the 100% HSing option. But when those words become a way to judge and exclude, I have a big problem with that. Why cant the HS group down the street be the way GCM is on issues - "you dont have to agree, but understand that the postion of this group is that HS independently is the ideal and we have strong feelings against govt involovement, you are free to join as long as you are not trying to undermine that belief."

[ArmsOfLove]

because GCM is just an amazing place :grin

:hug

[Heather Micaela]

because GCM is just an amazing place :grin

:hug

:yes :luvgcm
:grouphug

[Teribear]

Still, in many states you have to report to the govt in some fashion or other. Are parents in those states not truly homeschooling?



I could be wrong, as I really haven't researched any state other than my own. To be perfectly honest, I am not homeschooling under my state law. The only way to legally homeschool in TN is to go through the LEA (local education authority) which puts me right back under the jurisdiction of the public school. Or to homeschool through a church related school (CRS) that reports high schoolers to the LEA which AGAIN puts me right back under the jurisdiction of the public school. OR have my daughter "attend" a private CRS where I am considered faculty member and my home is considered a satellite campus of the private CRS where my daughter is enrolled. I therefore I fall under the requirements of that school not the requirements of the state schools. Ironically in TN this is the route that actually provides us the most educational freedom.

A large percentage of homeschoolers use the Jeter Memo option (which is the one I just described) because as a rule the cover schools let us do whatever we want in regards to our children's education and all they really do is keep our records for us. We pick curriculum, they approve it. We choose how to teach it. When she graduates she will have a diploma from Gateway Christian School. In order to "homeschool" the way our predecessors wanted us to have the freedom to homeschool I have to chose an option that makes me technically NOT a homeschooler in the eyes of the law. I understand the paradox, I really do.

I'd love to see "alternative schooling" become the catch-all term. I think it would bind us together in a way that simply homeschooling doesn't. But until that happens we need to be clear about what it is that we are actually doing. I homeschool but I'm not a homeschooler if that makes a lick of sense. Just as you homeschool but you're not a homeschooler either.

[Peaceful Meadows]

My biggest concern is when those who use "alternative school" are looked down upon or not included in HS circles as a result of how one labels it. There is a mom at my congregation who was open and friendlyto me when I talked about HSing my child. And she doesn't doesnt seem to mind those in private or public. But when she found out I was in a charter she pretty much turned on me :no2 And some groups seriously wont let you in.

That happens all, too, often. :( :bheart

That's why as much as I worry about government using VA's to take away homeschooling freedoms, that I make sure to let the VA parents know that I see them as homeschooling moms and accept them. I share many of the same feelings about VAs as those of you who refuse to call it homeschooling but not matter how much I personally dislike VAs, the parents using them are homeschooling in my mind because they are teaching their children at home and they never ever should be excluded from homeschooling support groups, gatherings, etc. They should be accepted and loved.

[HomeWithMyBabies]

Still, in many states you have to report to the govt in some fashion or other. Are parents in those states not truly homeschooling?


That's a good point. As I understand it for me to homeschool I will have to pay someone to evaluate the information I put together explaining our school work, so they can report back to the school district about what we're doing.

[J3K]

wow Teri....:jawdrop I had no idea you had to jump through so many hoops just to have your God given right...to keep your child at home. Wow.

I'm suddenly feeling very blessed to be hs'ing in Missouri....

[loveberry]

One thing about the term "alternative school" is that it's already being used for institutional schooling situations that are alternatives to traditional situations.

I was in EOP - Educational Opportunities Program - in high school. It was basically an alternative to traditional high school, and was referred to as "alternative school" by some.

I took half my classes with EOP instructors, in one big area, with the same students. I took the other half of my classes at the regular high school but we also had the option of doing a kind of junior internship for credit at some job in town during those hours. EOP was a closed environment, you took your EOP classes in the morning or afternoon, all hours run together, and it was a very cool community feel and without it I might have quit school. It was absolutely alternative and absolutely unrelated to anything at home or parent directed.

So I am just wondering if these types of alternatives are included in the general idea of educational choice, or not, or if I am just muddying the waters further. ;)

[ArmsOfLove]

add to that the fact that "charter" school means different things in different states and all sorts of other linguistic hoops :doh

Dare I suggest that pure homeschooling go back to the original definition of Unschooling as being detached and unaffiliated with the state in any way?

[Teribear]

WOW! I looked at Missouri's laws and I WISH it were that simple here. In reality it sounds a lot more complicated than it is. I send my registration paperwork to Gateway with a list of what I'm using as curriculum. I send grades twice yearly. Boom. Done. You learn to work within the system to accomplish what you need to.

I'm looking at possibly being the MHEA legislative liason next year and this has become something I'm super aware of the necessity for accurately stating what we're doing in the correct legalese now.

[ArmsOfLove]

Arizona we just let the superintendant of public schools know before we start (or after :shrug) and then we never hear from the state again :rockon and a lot of our legislation was actually written by a homeschooling high schooler whose family got in with a state legislator who sponsored the bills :tu

[loveberry]

Yeah, Arizona rocks. The only issue with having this little amount of oversight is that I think there is backlash coming eventually. Hopefully after Alex is grown. :/

[ArmsOfLove]

Yeah, Arizona rocks. The only issue with having this little amount of oversight is that I think there is backlash coming eventually. Hopefully after Alex is grown. :/
I don't expect that at all because the success of homeschoolers here is amazing :tu And he can be considered for grade based scholarships at the state funded universities and lots of scholarship money is offered to graduating homeschoolers from here :)

[Heather Micaela]

add to that the fact that "charter" school means different things in different states and all sorts of other linguistic hoops :doh

Dare I suggest that pure homeschooling go back to the original definition of Unschooling as being detached and unaffiliated with the state in any way?

If i understand you correctly, you are saying HS should be defined as is no strings whatsoever, but what if you are in a state like Terri's? CA actually has more freedom than that - you just declare yourself a private school and go your merry way. It seems like faulting a person for the state they live in?

[ArmsOfLove]

add to that the fact that "charter" school means different things in different states and all sorts of other linguistic hoops :doh

Dare I suggest that pure homeschooling go back to the original definition of Unschooling as being detached and unaffiliated with the state in any way?

If i understand you correctly, you are saying HS should be defined as is no strings whatsoever, but what if you are in a state like Terri's? CA actually has more freedom than that - you just declare yourself a private school and go your merry way. It seems like faulting a person for the state they live in?
I would suggest that homeschoolers in states that do not allow pure homeschooling need to keep up the fight and not give in. Work to change laws; work to fight for rights to educate. I'm not faulting homeschoolers in those states; I'm faulting the laws of those states :shrug

[Titus2Momof4]

But just TRY to put yourself in the place of a mama who may not be as confident as you are to just jump out on her own, or who may not be able to afford to buy materials to homeschool. Then how does "You're not REALLY a homeschooler" sound?


Awwwwwwww! :hugheart :hugheart

I'm going to tell you like I tell my kids: It doesn't matter what other people say- what matters is how YOU feel about yourself. :hug If I say you're not REALLY a girl (because of my opinion that all girls xyz), does that make you any less a girl, in your mind? If you consider yourself a homeschooler, then you are a homeschooler. As someone else pointed out, the term "homeschooling" usually refers to the environment, not so much who is 'in charge'. You're a homeschooler, hon. :hug

And by the way- what about those in states who DO have to report to the state, have annual evaluations, report progress and attendance, etc, but aren't in VCA's? Are we now going to say that they cannot possibly be homeschoolers because they have to answer to the state? :sigh

[ArmsOfLove]

Tasha, I answered that question above I would suggest that homeschoolers in states that do not allow pure homeschooling need to keep up the fight and not give in. Work to change laws; work to fight for rights to educate. I'm not faulting homeschoolers in those states; I'm faulting the laws of those states

In states with specific restrictions the those who desire pure homeschooling will take them as close to the edge as they can get. It *has* to because it's about doing your own thing OUTSIDE of the state's guidelines. That is why there are groups that have set up to give that umbrella of protection. In fact, when we incorporated years ago we included wording to allow that should we ever need it :yes But I intend to fight tooth and nail to keep that from ever being necessary :yes

[Heather Micaela]

That makes sense. But what do those who are at home with their children but not "Homschoolers" call themselves then? :scratch

[ArmsOfLove]

That makes sense. But what do those who are at home with their children but not "Homschoolers" call themselves then? :scratch
all of this is opinion, mind you, but I think homeschoolers are those who are schooling as independantly as they are legally allowed to do. For me the issue is less whether someone is a "homeschooler" or is "homeschooling". Someone with the heart of a homeschooler can take a VA situation and make it as rewarding as it can possibly be--but they are limited by the "schooling" choice. Does that make sense?

[Heather Micaela]

sure :yes I was just pondering terms, what do we then call everyone else :)

[Bonnie]

Alternative Schoolers? Alt Schoolers? Parent Taught? Home-environment Private Schoolers? I think Alternative is the best catch-all. :think

[J3K]

I knew a lady who identified herself as "a public school at homer." Her definition : I use the public school curricula , but I do it at home.

I think a homeschooler at heart is someone who wants to be as far away from government influence as possible. Being stranded by your state laws is something different. A mother who grits teeth and balks at sending in information , fights the system where she can (legally), regrets even having to give grades to her child , but does so to remain above the law , a woman who yearns for more privacy in educating her children and thinks ALL parents should be given the right to homeschool their children no matter what......I'd consider her a homeschooler.

Someone sitting happily in the land of "I'll do whatever the schools tell me to do , I'll just do it at home"or "I have no idea what my state laws are" ....I don't know that I'd consider that person a homeschooler. I'd consider her public schooler who enjoys her jammies. :giggle

It still boggles my mind that I don't need any criteria to be a mom , no one questions my ability (as far as the state is concerned) , no one checks up on me to see that I'm giving my kids a hot meal at least once a day , but mention that I want to teach my kid the ABC's , or the Civil War at HOME...and ohmyword....it's almost frightening how quick people are to judge , make assumptions and try to figure out ways to make that super difficult for you to accomplish. Either by state laws , or making your life hard emotionally....just boggles the mind.

[Heather Micaela]

I think a homeschooler at heart is someone who wants to be as far away from government influence as possible.
Well, by that definition *I* would qualify, since honestly I *want* to do w/o the charter. So while I get what you are saying the desire alone is not enough.

[Peaceful Meadows]

You know this is why I hate labels. It get's way too confusing and they tend to put people/groups into boxes. :giggle

In PA we need to :
Keep a record of attendance - 180 days per year or 900 hours at the elementary level or 990 hours at the secondary level

Teach the following subjects - Elementary level: English spelling, reading, writing, arithmetic, U.S. and Pennsylvania history, civics, health and physiology, physical education, music, art, geography, science, safety and fire prevention Secondary level: English language, literature, speech and composition, science, geography, civics, world, U.S., and Pennsylvania history, algebra and geometry, art, music, physical education, health, safety, and fire prevention

"Teacher" qualifications: High school diploma or equivalent

Give notice - File a notarized affidavit with the local superintendent prior to start of home school and annually by August 1st thereafter

Keep records - Maintain a portfolio of materials used, work done, standardized test results in grades 3, 5, and 8, and a written evaluation completed by June 30 of each year

Testing - Administer standardized tests in grades 3, 5, and 8; submit results as part of portfolio


So we have lots of hoops to jump through but it doesn't mean I am any less a homeschooler than those in states with less strict laws and people manage to unschool here in PA. ;) The strict laws don't mean nobody is fighting for less government regulation. We are fighting, fighting, fighting but the NEA is also fighting to keep the laws in place and it's hard to take on the NEA because they are one huge organizion with and the homeschoolers are many little groups coming together and unfortunately sometimes they have differeing opinions on certian wording etc and well at times that can cause disunity. :sigh

Edit to add:
When reporting, I just give the government/school district the bare min. I wish all homeschoolers did that. Over compliance can cause stricter laws. Giving the bare min. reduces the school district's expectation and makes reporting easier. ;)

[Titus2Momof4]

Tasha, I answered that question above I would suggest that homeschoolers in states that do not allow pure homeschooling need to keep up the fight and not give in. Work to change laws; work to fight for rights to educate. I'm not faulting homeschoolers in those states; I'm faulting the laws of those states

In states with specific restrictions the those who desire pure homeschooling will take them as close to the edge as they can get. It *has* to because it's about doing your own thing OUTSIDE of the state's guidelines. That is why there are groups that have set up to give that umbrella of protection. In fact, when we incorporated years ago we included wording to allow that should we ever need it :yes But I intend to fight tooth and nail to keep that from ever being necessary :yes


I hadn't noticed where you'd answered that.

In reply:

Now you must realize that not *everyone* who homeschools has this "keep gov't out of my schooling as much as possible" mentality, though. :shrug Doesn't make them any less of a homeschooler.

[Teribear]

The thing is Tasha the founders of the homeschool movement, the ones on whose shoulders we stand, DID have that mentality. That was the core of their argument and the laws that were written were based on a federal precedent of the fundamental rights of the family as the basic unit of society. To take what the movement was founded on and redefine it to suit those of us who benefit from it now in the variety of alternative schooling choices that grew out of it is what endangers the whole thing.

[HomeWithMyBabies]

Like I said earlier, I completely understand wanting to keep the ideas distinct, however it's like so many other things...it seems there is an ideal definition and then a practical definition. For example in some places I wasn't really a "breastfeeding mother" because I had to supplement with formula, despite my deeply held ideals about exclusive breastfeeding. I'm a gentle mother but try as I might I'm not gentle every moment of every single day. Still I wouldn't want to be told I'm not included in those groups or that those labels don't fit me.

We'll have hoops to jump through (SueQ, I didn't know you were in PA, I'll probably be pming you if that's ok ;)) but I'll still try to make the best choice for the kids. I think that choice will be as little involvement with the SD as we can manage, but some people might find more involvement to be better for their kids overall and I think in the practical sense that is the point--what the parents decide is best for the kids being educated at home is homeschooling.

[Titus2Momof4]

I think that choice will be as little involvement with the SD as we can manage, but some people might find more involvement to be better for their kids overall and I think in the practical sense that is the point--what the parents decide is best for the kids being educated at home is homeschooling.

:rockon

Particularly for those who, without ANY accountability, would literally end up doing nothing much, and later on end up worrying because their children aren't up to par with other children their age (and there are no learning disabilities). It doesn't make them ANY less of a homeschooler!

[Peaceful Meadows]

(SueQ, I didn't know you were in PA, I'll probably be pming you if that's ok ;) )

:yes That's fine.

[J3K]

Feeling frustrated at the definitions.

If I want to breastfeed , think it's a great idea for as long as possible , but am not breastfeeding (for whatever reason) am I breastfeeding ? Or am I a breastfeeding supporter ?

To open another can o worms.... If I think education on vaccines is important , and respect another's wishes , but still vaccinate my own children....does that make me an anti vaxer ? Or someone who is supportive to antivaxing ?

If you think homeschooling is a good idea , support others doing it , but voluntarily reach out to the public school system to teach your child (location aside)....does that make you a homeschooler ? Or someone who is open to the idea ?

Keeping your child home doesn't necessarily mean "homeschooler". Especially if voluntarily the government is in your home.

I am having some serious strong feelings and don't wish to hurt anyone...I'm trying to fledge thru this just like ya'll are.

[jujubnme]

J3K, I don't see it so black and white. It seems to me with all those areas, there is a whole spectrum of possible levels of participation. With breastfeeding, you have exclusive breastfeeding on one end and no breastfeeding on the other... but is someone who breastfeeds and supplements with formula really a breastfeeder? What if she only breastfeeds once a day, and formula feeds the rest of the day?

With vaxing you have the spectrum between non-vax, selective vaxing and fully vaxing. In this area you wouldn't call someone who has done some or all vaxes a non-vaxer. This is one spectrum where the middle ground actually does have its own appropriate label. But selective vaxers do share some of the same concerns as non-vaxers.

With homeschooling there is a similar spectrum. As previous posters have suggested, there *is* a difference between a child attending public school and doing public school curriculum at home. Not a big one, but it is one step into the homeschooling spectrum IMO. Perhaps if the label weren't homeschooling, but child/parent-led schooling or something like that it would make sense to exclude the middle spectrum from that label, but it's not? :shrug Maybe, like with the autism spectrum, those in the middle should just say they're on the homeschooling spectrum? :giggle

While it may be important to advocate for the ideal on the far-end of the spectrum, there does need to be support and encouragement for those in the middle, however they get labeled. :twocents

[stbmomof1plus2]

As a future homeschooler (since my kids are not yet of school age), the blurring of terms is scary to me. VS just hit my state an dare starting to catch on. Thank God our Govenor homeschools his kids, so the creep isn't possible. But I do fear when we get a new Govenor, creep may start to happen and VS will be expected of homeschoolers in the future. Especially with some of the language in NCLB as well as some of the rhetoric from current Presidential candidates regarding mandatory preschool. When the federal government starts making mandates, states tend to panic and in that panic I can see things begin to get restrictive.
I think we have to remain vigilant in what homeschooling means. This is very important to us because we have a PG child and having to follow government school rules trying to educate him would be a disaster.
I think VS is a GREAT idea. My cousin will be sending her 2 kids to VS next year. Just having them out of the public school environment will be wonderful, but she is not homeschooling.
I also think some strings might start to be attached that say you can't do X, Y, or Z unless you VS (for instance, in some states homeschoolers can take part in public school special activities - will they begin to say you can only do it if you attend VS).
It definitely makes us nervous and I am pretty close to joining HSLDA now in anticipation.

[jujubnme]

OK, so forgive me, I'm kind of dense and ignorant about the politics of homeschooling. The issue at stake here is the fear that VA's are a kind of bait-and-switch offered by the government? Once they are accepted as a form of homeschooling, then broader homeschooling freedoms will be restricted? Just trying to understand...

[Peaceful Meadows]

While it may be important to advocate for the ideal on the far-end of the spectrum, there does need to be support and encouragement for those in the middle, however they get labeled.
:yes :clap

I think it's very important to advocate for freedom from the government and homeschooling liberties but I think that it's just as important to provide support and encouragement for those who for whatever choose to use the VA and cyber schools that I personally want to stay far away from. ;)

[J3K]

OK, so forgive me, I'm kind of dense and ignorant about the politics of homeschooling. The issue at stake here is the fear that VA's are a kind of bait-and-switch offered by the government? Once they are accepted as a form of homeschooling, then broader homeschooling freedoms will be restricted? Just trying to understand...



:yes :yes :yes :yes :yes That's it...exactly !!!!!

[Peaceful Meadows]

OK, so forgive me, I'm kind of dense and ignorant about the politics of homeschooling. The issue at stake here is the fear that VA's are a kind of bait-and-switch offered by the government? Once they are accepted as a form of homeschooling, then broader homeschooling freedoms will be restricted? Just trying to understand...


:yes That's the fear and unfortunately I don't think that fear is unfounded. :(

[Mamaka]

I agree. I think it's vitally important to preserve homeschooling rights and freedoms and would advocate for such. What Teri said was right on.

Just so I'm clear, I don't consider myself a homeschooler. When asked I say "my ds attends a virtual academy" Next year I will probably say "we homeschool part time and attend a VA part time." But like I said previously, it depends on my audience as to whether explaining the semantics is important (i.e. when talking to my il's who just don't get it, we pretty much say homeschooling or let them assume that, to another hs'er I'd be clear about vs).

What I take exception to is the assumption that VAs and families who choose to use them are doing so because they are uneducated about their schooling choices or are unsure of their own ability to school at home. Or that we're "less" because we're making this choice (accepted nor embraced by neither ps'ers or hs'ers) and are being duped by the gov't or the SD's. But that is probably OT and should be the subject of another thread. :shrug

[Titus2Momof4]

If you think homeschooling is a good idea , support others doing it , but voluntarily reach out to the public school system to teach your child (location aside)....does that make you a homeschooler ? Or someone who is open to the idea ?

Not if you *send* your kids to school to be taught by another person (like I do), no.

But if your kids are home being taught by you, then yes.

On this statement in particular:
but voluntarily reach out to the public school system to teach your child (location aside)....

Define "teach"? Is it still "teaching" when you are mandated to report to the public school with a portfolio of work and progress, sit for standardized tests at the end of the year, and have your children evaluated by a certified teacher? You've been the one teaching, but the gov't gets to evaluate and require a certain amount of attendance hours/days and benchmarks and tests - are you still "teaching" your kids? If the answer is yes, then it sounds like "having mom/dad teach" defines homeschooling....

I agree with jujubnme- it isn't so black and white. :shrug

[Bonnie]

I am one who thinks it is absolutely imperative that we make the distinction. I am concerned about the political implications of saying it's *just* semantics...words change culture. But I absolutely positively do NOT think that saying families who use virtual academies and the like are *less than* in any way. Definitely different. It is *not* the same thing as homeschooling. But that doesn't mean it's less than. :shrug I know there are groups and people (lots of them) who *do* think that, but I don't believe it's a function of what you label it. And if you don't think I understand what it's like to straddle a line between groups, I'll note that I'm a natural birth advocate who's had three cesareans. :giggle

[MomTo7]

Here's the thing...I believe that ALL forms of alternative education (not public/private brick and mortar schooling) should be available and encouraged. Each one meets a set of needs and combined they provide a rich set of opportunities to educate our children in the way we deem best. The problem I (and possibly others here) have with calling all schooling that takes place in the home "homeschooling" is that it blurs the distinctions and puts those of us who are opposed to government controlled schooling at risk of seeing the freedoms that the pioneers of this movement worked so hard for eroded away. HSLDA...for all the good things they do...are too in bed with the ideals of the NEA to suit me. I think it is telling of the blurring that Mike Huckabee can be endorsed simultaneously by both groups. When I say the VA's are not homeschooling it is because it is CRITICAL to maintaining my freedoms as a homeschooler to be distinct about what each type of alternative education actually IS and is not. As a homeschooler I am saying that my child's education is 100% MY concern and responsibility. I do not accept the government's assertion that because my child is some arbitrary age I must now turn their education over to the state in any way shape form or fashion. I don't cast stones at those who choose to use VA's I think that for some they can be a wonderful educational choice but they are NOT homeschooling. They're just not. Any time you have to be accountable to another entity regarding the content or method you are using alternative schooling, sometimes in the home sometimes not...sometimes part time in the home and part time not. The program I teach in says that "we're still homeschooling"...No...we're not...we make the assignments, we assign the grades and we send home a grade report to the parents. That's not homeschooling, even if they are at home 3 days out of the week. Its a wonderful alternative program to public schooling but it is, in reality, an alternative private school. Its not "less than" homeschooling...but it IS different.


:yes

[J3K]

And if you don't think I understand what it's like to straddle a line between groups, I'll note that I'm a natural birth advocate who's had three cesareans. :giggle

Exactly...I'm in the same shoes. I think it's marvelous to have a natural birth. But I , having three csections myself , don't consider myself a natural birther. Supporter , yes.

[MomTo7]

wow Teri....:jawdrop I had no idea you had to jump through so many hoops just to have your God given right...to keep your child at home. Wow.

I'm suddenly feeling very blessed to be hs'ing in Missouri....


:yes 3 cheers for Missouri and them minding their own business....there are 3 houses on my street for sale and NO ONE here has ever judged a family in our group for how they choose to educate. ...so come on over! :yes

[jujubnme]

OK, I think I'm getting what ya'll are saying about the importance of making a distinction between the different types of schooling when talking about laws and homeschooling. :yes But do you think the distinction important when you're talking about support groups? Where does it go from clarification to exclusion? Again, just an outsider trying to understand... (I "homeschooled" Julius for preschool, but was more of an unschooler and didn't really get connected with homeschool community at large per se, so I guess I missed this whole controversy.)

[Heather Micaela]

OK, I think I'm getting what ya'll are saying about the importance of making a distinction between the different types of schooling when talking about laws and homeschooling. :yes But do you think the distinction important when you're talking about support groups? Where does it go from clarification to exclusion? Again, just an outsider trying to understand... (I "homeschooled" Julius for preschool, but was more of an unschooler and didn't really get connected with homeschool community at large per se, so I guess I missed this whole controversy.)


I think at least some were saying that support groups should support all who teach at home to some degree unless they are legal/political in nature. IMO I do not think it bad for a group to have a standpoint on an issue, but I think they should still welcome those outside that standpoint as long as they are respectful of it. (Like I said - the way GCM is)


I do have to say that it is funny (as in ironic) that I have more freedom in my govt sponsored charter than some in other states do as "official" homeschoolers.

[HomeWithMyBabies]

While it may be important to advocate for the ideal on the far-end of the spectrum, there does need to be support and encouragement for those in the middle, however they get labeled. :twocents


:yes


What I take exception to is the assumption that VAs and families who choose to use them are doing so because they are uneducated about their schooling choices or are unsure of their own ability to school at home. Or that we're "less" because we're making this choice (accepted nor embraced by neither ps'ers or hs'ers) and are being duped by the gov't or the SD's. But that is probably OT and should be the subject of another thread. :shrug


:yes

[LittleSweetPeas]

We do have a term for students in this situation: independent study.

There is a clear distinction for students who are solely HS with mom/dad choosing and implementing curriculum and students who are receiving their work from public schools but completing it at home.

I have heard moms refer to it in conversation, "Joe is in an independent study program".

[Teribear]

OK, I think I'm getting what y'all are saying about the importance of making a distinction between the different types of schooling when talking about laws and homeschooling. :yes But do you think the distinction important when you're talking about support groups? Where does it go from clarification to exclusion? Again, just an outsider trying to understand... (I "homeschooled" Julius for preschool, but was more of an unschooler and didn't really get connected with homeschool community at large per se, so I guess I missed this whole controversy.)


Personally I don't think your run of the mill homeschool support group/co-op should care. All of us who are using homebased alternative schooling (how do we like that term?) should be supportive of one another in that setting because we do all deal with some common issues and struggles. I know how it feels to be given the cold shoulder like that...I am an unschool minded individual in an area with mostly some variety of school-at-home being the norm and I have been excluded from certain groups because of it. I am speaking to this as someone who is on the board of our regional homeschooling association in a county that is largely hostile to homeschooling (we've had to battle daytime curfew laws, we've had to battle getting our kids treated the same as other privately schooled kids...its not pretty) and who will most likely be the next legislative liaison from that association so it is critical that I understand and deal with this from a political perspective. The fact is that ALL alternative schooling choices are being threatened due to the ill advised GWB initiative No Child Left Behind. Private schools are facing scrutiny that they haven't dealt with in decades, if ever. At least in this state. Schooling decisions were NEVER supposed to be made at a federal level. They have NO clue what goes on in the local school systems nor how to solve problems unique to those systems. That is why school boards have always existed at the local level. I am a stickler for explicit language when talking about school choice because the fact is that ALL of us are threatened at the moment. And the more of us we can show are out here and the variety we can prove exists makes it far more difficult for the federal government to force regulation upon any one of us, therefore keeping us collectively safer. Does that make sense?

[jujubnme]

:yes Thank you, Terri and all. I get it. And I think everyone is also agreeing that even with being clear that VA doesn't equal homeschooling, VA families need the same support, encouragement and respect as other homeschoolers. :grouphug

[Bonnie]

:yes Thank you, Terri and all. I get it. And I think everyone is also agreeing that even with being clear that VA doesn't equal homeschooling, VA families need the same support, encouragement and respect as other homeschoolers. :grouphug


Absolutely!

[AdrienneQW]

The fact is that ALL alternative schooling choices are being threatened due to the ill advised GWB initiative No Child Left Behind. Private schools are facing scrutiny that they haven't dealt with in decades, if ever. At least in this state. Schooling decisions were NEVER supposed to be made at a federal level. They have NO clue what goes on in the local school systems nor how to solve problems unique to those systems. That is why school boards have always existed at the local level. I am a stickler for explicit language when talking about school choice because the fact is that ALL of us are threatened at the moment.

That.

And wouldn't you know it, my "I :heart Terri" shirt is in the wash...

[J3K]

:giggle You can borrow my " I :heart Teri " screen saver if you want. :giggle

Seriously though Teri...you show the importance (and the passion ) of the work our founding homeschooling families went thru to even get where we are today...which granted , is STRIDES from where they were...but we still have SO far to go.

[Heather Micaela]

I actually agree with you terri. And some sort of term like independent study is best. What I agree with most of all is that NCLB is the biggest threat to education - and not just to HS , but private and even public. Now in public teacher teach to the test. They no longer teach as much art, history, and social studies, teaching a "different way" to learn something is unaccaptable. Even my retired PS teaching mom did not like NCLB.

[Teacher Mom]

Does anyone remember when kindergarden was an OPTION??? Or am I showing my age??? :shifty Slowly, oh so s l o w l y, the option to send your child a year earlier to school became the standard.

Now there is so much talk about preschool. I am scared to think that 20 years from now preschool will be the new kindergarden. No one will ever remember it being an option.

That is what I am afraid of with the public school's VA. Before you know it, their ideas will become the norm.

[Heather Micaela]

Kindergarten is still not required in CA but nobody even knows that.

[Peaceful Meadows]

Kindergarten is still not required in CA but nobody even knows that.

Same with here in PA. Actually no one here is required to attend school until they're 8 but no one knows that either. :yes2

[Blue Savannah]

Kindergarten is not required for our state, either. But we are a very conservative state. I, too, hope that preschool is never even a state option, for the same reason as a pp said. Kids just shouldn't have to go to school until they're ready.

After reading this thread, I have a few questions. I feel like I should feel guilty for being in a VCS. :neutral But I just don't see how my doing that is really going to effect homeschool laws.

1. Virtual Academies have been around for a while now. Have any states changed their homeschooling laws because of them? In our state (which is SUPER easy to homeschool in), the VAs have a much harder time than homeschoolers. VAs are always fighting in the legislature for rights, but homeschoolers aren't. So I guess, seeing that, I don't see how VAs can negatively effect homeschooling laws. Because they seem to be two very different sets of laws. And the public schools are quite threatened by the VAs, and not so much the homeschoolers. (Maybe we are acting as a buffer for the homeschoolers in our state. :giggle)

2. VAs do all the state testing and use state compliant curriculum, yet do much better in general than kids that do similar things in brick & mortar schools. Doesn't that help show how beneficial it is for kids to be educated by a loving parent/grandparent/etc.? Why wouldn't that help the homeschooling movement?

3. I don't see how a wide range of educational choices can ever be bad. It gives parents the option to choose what's best for their families, and makes the public schools more competitive. Homeschooling or home education just isn't for everyone.

4. I see VAs as a way to use my tax money to educate my children in the way that's best for our family. I know a lot of you don't agree with that, but my dh feels really strongly about it. We'll likely be doing an IDEA school this coming year. I will have freedom to choose her education plan/curriculum, but will get some reimbursement for expenses from the state. We're struggling to be a single income family; my dh works hard, but doesn't make a huge amount of money. Anything I can do to cut costs in hs'ing (or whatever is the PC term for what I'm doing is here) is appreciated by him.

So tell me. . . what's wrong with the way I'm thinking? I just really don't understand. :/

[Titus2Momof4]

((((((((Kristin))))))))

[Blue Savannah]

((((((((Kristin))))))))


Thanks. I want to come to your house for tea!

I'm not trying to stir up conflict at all; but I've had such a positive experience with VCSs, and I just really don't understand why they are a problem. :scratch

[HomeWithMyBabies]

So tell me. . . what's wrong with the way I'm thinking? I just really don't understand. :/


:hug It sounds to me like you've made an educated decision about what works for your family.

It's hard (for me) to talk about the issue solely from a philosophical or political perspective because real people are just trying to make the best pragmatic choice for their families. In the midst of a discussion on the broader issue it can sound like you're being pulled aside and told, "You know, you're not really homeschooling." I don't believe that's the point of this thread but I can understand hearing it that way.

[Titus2Momof4]

((((((((Kristin))))))))


Thanks. I want to come to your house for tea!

I'm not trying to stir up conflict at all; but I've had such a positive experience with VCSs, and I just really don't understand why they are a problem. :scratch


How's coffee? :cup

:hug

[Blue Savannah]

Coffee's great! :heart :heart :)

[WanderingJuniper]

This is interesting to me because if PS fails us our back up plan is a VCS. Good friends of our have had a wonderful positive experience with it.

Talking about terms. . .
I have heard moms refer to it in conversation, "Joe is in an independent study program".
Saying that to just about anyone I know would be heard, "Joe is a problem in school so he's at home now."

[Laurlor]

I just wanted to also say that we are in our third year in a VA and it has been an awesome experience. I can't speak for all states, but in CA I have come to see that they are extremely flexible if the curriculum doesn't work for you (you just have to talk to somebody about it and not assume there are no choices). In fact, a dear friend of mine has a fourth grader in our VA who is struggling...she loves writing and illustrating mini books though, so she made a deal with her master teacher to write and illustrate 4 books a week and that's it! Also, the history curriculum hasn't been a fit for her other daughter, so the teacher told her to just go to the library and find books on the subject, and as long as she got the information and understood it, it was fine. She loves the other curriculum and support, so she continues to do the VA. How is this different than choosing another packaged curriculum? My girlfriend who uses Sunshine said that our books for literature are almost identical. I chose K12 because I love it and it's working great for our family. When something isn't working for us, I do something different as long as we get the end result of understanding about the subject. Why does that make me not a homeschooler in your eyes? We also include Bible and character curriculum, but for our core subjects I've chosen K12 and happen to get it free through the VA. I think if I couldn't do the VA I'd still pay for it because I love it. I think you have the wrong idea about the choices and flexibility that parents have for our children in a VA.

And FWIW, I have experienced a lot of predjudice by Christians for doing a VA, and truly I believe I have the same heart that you do in the schooling choices I make for my kids. I finally found a support group where I am loved and accepted, but there a A LOT that forbid me from being a member. Please be careful in your assumptions because you really do come off as extremely legalistic, "better than," that we aren't making the best choice for our children, and very unaccepting. Even though you you say VA families need the same support, by saying that we are not homeschoolers it makes me feel very unsupported and not part of your club. I know that's not the intent here so don't get me wrong, but it really is how it makes us feel.

[Leslie]

For what it's worth, I'm not really a homeschooler. In my state, you either have to be a certified teacher to teach at the high school level (the only legal way to homeschool a high schooler), or be granted a waiver by the public school system that allows you to homeschool without a teaching certificate (like they would ever grant such a privilege! That option is extremely rare), or you have to enroll in an umbrella school and be considered an employee of that school teaching your child at a remote campus. As far as the government is concerned, my student is enrolled in a private school, although my son has never set foot in that school because it's eight hours away. It's sad because anything he achieves doesn't go down in the records as being achieved by a homeschooler, but as a private school student.

[AttachedMamma]

Does anyone remember when kindergarden was an OPTION??? Or am I showing my age??? :shifty Slowly, oh so s l o w l y, the option to send your child a year earlier to school became the standard.

Now there is so much talk about preschool. I am scared to think that 20 years from now preschool will be the new kindergarden. No one will ever remember it being an option.

That is what I am afraid of with the public school's VA. Before you know it, their ideas will become the norm.


:yes I'm in my forties, so I have seen a lot of change over the years.

I'm not saying anyone on this board said this, but nobody in my homeschool circle (co-op, support groups, etc.) sees schooling at home via virtual academy as inferior to their homeschooling which isn't connected to the public school. The issue isn't about homeschoolers feeling offended by how others school at home using the public school's materials, plan, reporting to the school, etc. The issue is the real fear that this new type of homeschooling blurs the lines...and the laws of homeschooling as it was fought for by the homeschooling pioneers. It re-defines what constitutes homeschooling.

I think that the people best to explain this are the ones who have been in the "trenches" of homeschooling for many years or were homeschooling during a time when they had to fight for homeschooling legislation.

cindi

[CelticJourney]

I think this issue is one of 'degrees of independence' - Public schoolers depend on the sytem to choose the curriculum and impliment it. VSers depend on the system to choose the curriculum and they are responsible for 'making it happen'. Home schoolers both make the curriculum decisions and impliment them. The governmental slippery slope, from my perspective, is that if we include VSer in the category of 'HSer' then the goverment can say 'well, we've always been involved with dictating homeschool curriculum (as opposed to 'you must cover math, reading,....), we are simply taking it to the next step'. I don't think anyone is making a value judgement about VSing, but I dont' want the government telling me I can't use BJU materials about as much as I don't want BJU telling me I have to.

I think at least some were saying that support groups should support all who teach at home to some degree unless they are legal/political in nature. IMO I do not think it bad for a group to have a standpoint on an issue, but I think they should still welcome those outside that standpoint as long as they are respectful of it.The only problem I can see with this is how the program is implimented. In the past, we have had very rigid families join our small group - if the suggested field trip didn't meet their specific curriculum guidelines, they viewed it as a wasted trip and sometimes allowed it to cause tension in the group. If someone doing a VS program is on a strict schedule, they might not feel they can participate with the group. Also, a hot topic with my homeschool group is always curriculum - whether it's a new mom who is looking for btdt advice, or someone whose child has reached a new level and is ready to make a change - what we like, what didn't work for us, what we are searching for is just something we discuss on a regular basis. I think a vitual schooling mom would be very welcomed in our group on priciple, but I wonder if she would feel supported.

[mom2boys]

I think this issue is one of 'degrees of independence' - Public schoolers depend on the sytem to choose the curriculum and implement it. VSers depend on the system to choose the curriculum and they are responsible for 'making it happen'. Home schoolers both make the curriculum decisions and implement them. The governmental slippery slope, from my perspective, is that if we include VSer in the category of 'HSer' then the government can say 'well, we've always been involved with dictating homeschool curriculum (as opposed to 'you must cover math, reading,....), we are simply taking it to the next step'. I don't think anyone is making a value judgment about VSing, but I don't want the government telling me I can't use BJU materials about as much as I don't want BJU telling me I have to.

I think at least some were saying that support groups should support all who teach at home to some degree unless they are legal/political in nature. IMO I do not think it bad for a group to have a standpoint on an issue, but I think they should still welcome those outside that standpoint as long as they are respectful of it.The only problem I can see with this is how the program is implemented. In the past, we have had very rigid families join our small group - if the suggested field trip didn't meet their specific curriculum guidelines, they viewed it as a wasted trip and sometimes allowed it to cause tension in the group. If someone doing a VS program is on a strict schedule, they might not feel they can participate with the group. Also, a hot topic with my homeschool group is always curriculum - whether it's a new mom who is looking for btdt advice, or someone whose child has reached a new level and is ready to make a change - what we like, what didn't work for us, what we are searching for is just something we discuss on a regular basis. I think a virtual schooling mom would be very welcomed in our group on principle, but I wonder if she would feel supported.


:yes I just want to say ditto to everything you just said. :-) I would have used a VS if one was easily available to me when I first started out, and I would be so rebelling against the VS if I was in it now! :giggle but now that I'm more comfortable with my role as a homeschooling mom, I'm more comfortable with making those choices for myself.

[Heather Micaela]

I think this issue is one of 'degrees of independence' - Public schoolers depend on the sytem to choose the curriculum and impliment it. VSers depend on the system to choose the curriculum and they are responsible for 'making it happen'. Home schoolers both make the curriculum decisions and impliment them.
But see, herin lies the confusion. I am in between an the VS and an independant HSer. In fact, have more freedom than one of my friends had under a private umbrella (which like I said, other than being your own private school is the only way to HS legally in CA.) I choose my curriculum and impliment it. I have to mark "attendance" but so long as I do 20 days within the period (which technically should be 4 weeks M-F) I am fine. And there is no real consequence for some absences either. Then I just write down what I did in the typical subject areas. I can use what I want, but as a public they wont pay for religious matierials. I try my best to unschool and I dont have to keep grades till High School. So that is why the typical HS co-op *is* beneficial to me.

Still I am ok with people wanting to make a difference betweeen what I do and independent HS. I take govt money, and as a result have to keep to a traditional school year and - if I stay with it - have my kids take the test they have at various grade levels. So while I think on one had there needs to be inclusion for VS and chater parents on a practical personal level, and while I think one needs to not judge the decisions of other parents, I do believe a distiction needs to be drawn. I WANT there to be more VS and Charters because I hope it will diverify the typical brick and mortar PS model. I hope it will allow those who for whatever reason cannot or will not independantly HS to be in more control over their child's education. But at the same time it does need to be defined as different than the tradional HS movement.

[ArmsOfLove]

I pm'd this to Terri when the board was locked and I was frustrated :)

There are birth options.

Hospital--many have a *good* experience, some would say their experience is great, far too many end in C-section and there is a lot of debate over how many are actually necessary. Induction pushes for birth before mother and baby are ready, doctors control birth, mother is part of the system.

Birth Center--designed to be as close to home environment as possible but with the benefits of the hospital if needed. Many women *feel* safer, but are under strict supervision because of the liability of the birth center and staff if things don't go "on schedule".

Homebirth--in a planned homebirth with or without a midwife there is absolute and total control of the birth in the hands of the mother. All rights and responsibilities fall on her shoulders and it is up to her to surround herself with support that will enable her to be successful.

A woman who gives birth before she gets to the hospital didn't have a "homebirth"; a woman who gives birth in a hospital obviously didn't have a homebirth, and a woman who had a birth at a birth center, even if it's wonderful, even if it's "just like being at home"--did NOT have a homebirth.

It doesn't make her birth "wrong", "less than", or other than what it should have been, but it isn't a homebirth

To me this is the same. You cannot define something simply by what it isn't, but what it isn't is part of what it is. VS is an alternative to the traditional public schools and I think it's great that this is out there :rockon Just like I think birth centers are a wonderful alternative to a routine hospital birth. But while VS is home, it isn't homeschool.

[Peaceful Meadows]

I don't know. I agree that a hospital birth is not a home birth. I agree that a birth center birth isn't a home birth. But to me if a baby is born at home no matter what the intentions are of the parents it's a home birth because they were at home when the baby was born. If the baby was born in the car then it was a car birth. If the baby was born in a bathroom then it was a bathroom birth.

If a child is taught at home they are home schooled. They are being taught at home through out the normal school day by the parent not a tutor. Yes they are using a CS or VS and do not have the freedoms that the rest of us have and love but still they are being educated at home in their place of dwelling and residence and their parents are teaching them. Maybe I am just being very dense but to me that is being schooled at home therefore home schooled. :/ Just like a baby born at home no matter what the parents' plans where is a home birth because they were in their home when the baby was born.

[Peaceful Meadows]

You know, it just occured to me that I should explain my thought process a bit more clearly in a homebirth you have people doing it differently and using different levels of medical help. You have the unassisted birthers which would be like those who unschool, then you have the ones that use a lay midwife which are like those that homeschool using curriculum, then you have the ones that use CNM which would be those that us the VS and CS.

[jojola]

I just had to laugh when I read this thread because I REALLY don't fit under any definition!!

I teach my 7yo his grade 2 curriculum, not at home, but at the kindergarten where I also teach my 4yo and 3 children from a Children's Home. So I'm not schooling at home... I'm not doing public school.. I'm not in a private school, unless a class of one qualifies... hmmm! I'll have to create my own category!! :scratch

[Blue Savannah]

As I've said before, I'm thinking hard about stepping out of the K12 VA and into an IDEA school. It sounds a lot like the school Heather Micaela is describing, essentially a sort of voucher for me to use on some curricula (I'll buy some Sonlight materials on my own because that isn't covered). I am choosing the curriculum completely. I am completely in charge of what she learns. I make her learning plan for the year. I implement it. But the state provides some of the funding. It's great for our family right now.

That being said, I don't want to do anything that jeopardizes homeschooling rights. Were we in a different financial situation right now, I might consider real homeschooling. I don't know. I certainly have a huge amount of respect for families I know who strictly homeschool, and 20 years down the road, I would feel terrible if I knew I did something to keep my grandkids from being homeschooled.

I've tried googling and can't come up with information to this question. Are there currently any states who have had VCSs come in, and then homeschool rights changed (or there is legislation in the works to change them)?

[CelticJourney]

I teach my 7yo his grade 2 curriculum, not at home, but at the kindergarten where I also teach my 4yo and 3 children from a Children's Home. So I'm not schooling at home... I put you firmly in the 'homeschool' category. If I based my defintion on where the learning happened, I might have to describe myself as a 'x% Car Schooler, x% school at grandma's house-er......' :)

But to me if a baby is born at home no matter what the intentions are of the parents it's a home birth because they were at home when the baby was born. If the baby was born in the car then it was a car birth. If the baby was born in a bathroom then it was a bathroom birth.Those are accidents of circumstances, not decisions based on conviction and parental opinion. The only way to compare this to education is if your child picks up a math book, you never intended to teach them math, but for some reason were held hostage until you completed the course work - yes, your child would have been taught at home, but that is not what a 'homeschooling experience' is all about any more than an emergency birth at home is what the 'home birth experience' is about.

[Teribear]

Use the search terms Homeschool Opposition to Virtual Charter Schools and you'll be able to find some of the reasoning you're looking for Blue Savannah.

Interestingly enough even the creators of the virtual charters make a distinction between themselves and homeschooling,


K12 describes a charter school as "an independent public school of choice, freed from rules but accountable for results." Although charter schools vary in approach from state to state because of government regulations, K12 identifies four "pillars" - freedom, innovation, choice and accountability - as the general basis for charter schools.

Although the curriculum is home-based, K12's founder and CEO Ron Packard told CNSNews.com that its mandated rigorous curriculum, enforced accountability through state tests, and access to state-certified teachers makes it "dramatically different" than the home school approach. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5C%5CNation%5C%5Carchive%5C%5 C200208%5C%5CNAT20020813b.html

"A private home education is really a liberty issue, and it’s very tough to see how a government operated home school could be in the best interests of liberty for home education,” Smith said.

Because virtual charters are still under the curriculum and testing requirements of traditional public schools, home-school parents lose the right to choose faith-based materials. “If [parents] want credit for this, if they want a diploma later or a transcript or anything like that, they have to teach over the curriculum that is approved,” Smith said. “That doesn’t prevent them, outside the time they’re getting credit, to augment [teaching materials] with Christian curriculum, but if they want to be in compliance with the program, they have to use whatever the charter school provides by way of curriculum.”

“There have been efforts to take the regulation of those who are under the virtual charter schools who are teaching their children at home and apply it to all of the home schoolers,” Smith said. “It looks like a good way to regulate home schooling, and that is the problem with these programs long term. They may look good now, but I have no doubt that the government, somewhere down the road, will try to tighten up on all of the home-schoolers.” http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=4304

Until 22 years ago homeschooling was illegal in this state and many others. Don't think for a second that its accepted enough that we can afford to relax and believe the option will always be available to us. The NEA is vehemently opposed to homeshooling in any form, including the virtual charters...and they are a powerful large political body. When homeschoolers buy into the use of public money and submit to the demands of public school "authority" we weaken our political position and that political position is what keeps us able to do this in the first place.

Alternative school choices should be available to all. Whatever school choice suits an individual family should be there for their use. But calling these Alternatives something other than what they are dilutes the political strength of the push required to keep independent homeschooling legal in all states.

[ArmsOfLove]

Although the curriculum is home-based, K12's founder and CEO Ron Packard told CNSNews.com that its mandated rigorous curriculum, enforced accountability through state tests, and access to state-certified teachers makes it "dramatically different" than the home school approach.And this is the heart of the problem. "dramatically different" is understood by the NEA and it's proponents to be "better than" and if it's "better than" AND at home then why not apply it to everyone? :shrug They could easily argue "best of both worlds" when really it's a trampling on the rights that many fought hard to demand!

As for birthing at home--it's not a "homebirth"--again, the word is NOT about location, it's about philosophical intent. As far as the hospital is concerned a birth that didn't make it to the hospital where it was intended to be had is a "failed hospital birth". My cousin, for example, didn't have a "planned gas station birth" ;) Whether UC (which, yes, my mind went to the far reaches of the analogy too :) ) or midwife assisted when a woman plans and intends to give birth at home it is an expression of an entirely different philosophy of birth.

And, as for labels, I do believe that those who educate their children within the most liberal approach offered by their state are still homeschoolers. This makes me think of with the twins when we were exploring HOW to get a homebirth in a state where it's illegal for midwives to assist at births of multiples. One thought was to have them in the van in the parking lot and then take them in to get checked or go inside if there was a complication. I would have considered that a "homebirth" because of what was going into it and why certain compromises were being made.

[Blue Savannah]

Okay, so using the birthing analogy, if someone gives birth with a midwife in a birth center, should I be concerned they are hurting my rights as a homebirther? :scratch

FWIW, I'm not disputing the fact that my dd is in a VCS connected with a charter school. Usually that is what I tell people. However, it's the attitude of homeschoolers that I'm somehow less that really gets to me. As you may have noticed. :O

[CelticJourney]

if someone gives birth with a midwife in a birth center, should I be concerned they are hurting my rights as a homebirther? Only if there are a large number of them insisting they are homebirthing rather than birthing at a birth center.

[ArmsOfLove]

if someone gives birth with a midwife in a birth center, should I be concerned they are hurting my rights as a homebirther? Only if there are a large number of them insisting they are homebirthing rather than birthing at a birth center.
exactly--OR if you live in a state where the hospitals are setting up birth centers that they regulate and control (as opposed to free standing birth centers) and presenting to the government that this is "homebirth but better"

[Blue Savannah]

Okay, so as long as people around me understand very clearly that I do NOT homeschool and my dd is part of a public school system, I am not endangering the rights of homeschoolers. Is that right?

[ArmsOfLove]

Okay, so as long as people around me understand very clearly that I do NOT homeschool and my dd is part of a public school system, I am not endangering the rights of homeschoolers. Is that right?
I honestly don't even care what others around you think :) I think for me it's that each person truly embrace and own and choose whatever it is they are doing :heart It's when those doing it start to get confused that we are going to have problems. It's when people start looking around at their options and think VC *is* homeschool, or the best homeschooling option that we're going to be in trouble. What *you* do isn't so much a threat. does that make sense? :hug

[Blue Savannah]

it does; and both the VCSs I've looked into state that many times, very clearly.

[ArmsOfLove]

:hug

I do get frustrated with individuals in the homeschooling community who won't embrace or support moms making all sorts of alternative choices. Our homeschool group has VCS'ers as part of it :yes Everyone needs support!

IMO the *movement* and the *individuals* both need to be protected :hug

[Peaceful Meadows]

IMO the *movement* and the *individuals* both need to be protected

I agree with this.

I am just confused at the labels and why someone teaching their child at home is not homeschooling if they use something like a VS or a CS. I mean they are doing all the work and more work than I, a relaxed homeschooler, am doing.

I understand the fear of more government regulation and how the governement could use those alternative school choices to bring that around. (I have that fear as well :yes2) Maybe I am dense and am missing something in my reading through the thread. If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling. :/

(We are fighting the flu here so my mind isn't totally on what I am reading. I could have easily missed something or even "10 somethings". :O :giggle)

[AttachedMamma]

Something worth reading that might bring some clarification.

http://www.chnow.org/id122.html

[Teacher Mom]

great link

[CelticJourney]

If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling.'Homeschooling' was a convenient label used to describe a level of parental autonomy and responsiblity that worked until the virual academy, etc were developed. The label was/is easy, but it was never intended to simply describe 'where' the child was being educated, but an educational experience and philosophy that is different from a charter or vs experience. By limiting the defintion, it is not intended to make any value judgement on our vs/cs sisters, only to preserve the original definition.

[Leslie]

Something worth reading that might bring some clarification.
http://www.chnow.org/id122.html


From that article:
"These programs are an attempt by public educators to create publicly-funded homeschooling; the only future they lead to is government-controlled homeschooling."

Am I correct that school vouchers for homeschooling would accomplish the same thing - add the element of government funding, and the government control that goes along with it?

[J3K]

:yes2 :yes2

[ArmsOfLove]

If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling.'Homeschooling' was a convenient label used to describe a level of parental autonomy and responsiblity that worked until the virual academy, etc were developed. The label was/is easy, but it was never intended to simply describe 'where' the child was being educated, but an educational experience and philosophy that is different from a charter or vs experience. By limiting the defintion, it is not intended to make any value judgement on our vs/cs sisters, only to preserve the original definition.
This is exactly it. This is why home school has become a one word noun "homeschool". Just like, ITT Tech is a Technical School, not a university; why a distance learning course is not the same thing as "homeschooling"; etc. It's not about where you are--because homeschooling is done everywhere we are. When we are at the museum, though, I don't switch and call it "museum schooling" or at the park we're not "park schooling". Homeschooling is the experience of parental autonomy and family directed learning.

[Blue Savannah]

Consider denying membership to those enrolled in a government school-at-home program . . . . Remember that “A little yeast works through the whole dough.”

:hunh Wow. While I respect the right of real homeschoolers to draw lines and make distinctions, referring to those of us outside those lines in this way--fellow believers, some of us--is extreme. And wrong.



ETA: It is the attitude encapsulated in this article that caused my dh and I to say we would never homeschool. He had a lot of exposure to it, and it's a complete turn off.

[AttachedMamma]

Something worth reading that might bring some clarification.
http://www.chnow.org/id122.html


From that article:
"These programs are an attempt by public educators to create publicly-funded homeschooling; the only future they lead to is government-controlled homeschooling."

Am I correct that school vouchers for homeschooling would accomplish the same thing - add the element of government funding, and the government control that goes along with it?


I believe so. When I first started looking into HSing I was up in arms about "why don't we fight for some tax benefit". Then veteran homeschoolers educated me to understand that we don't want the govt involved--at all. We want to complete the least amount of paperwork and have the least amount of ties w/the govt or the funding. The more info you give them, the more they can use against you. It's not paranoia--it's protection.

cindi

[AttachedMamma]

If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling.
'Homeschooling' was a convenient label used to describe a level of parental autonomy and responsiblity that worked until the virual academy, etc were developed. The label was/is easy, but it was never intended to simply describe 'where' the child was being educated, but an educational experience and philosophy that is different from a charter or vs experience. By limiting the defintion, it is not intended to make any value judgement on our vs/cs sisters, only to preserve the original definition.


Yes! :yes I really want moms to understand this. Independent HSers are not trying to make any value judgement on our vs/cs sisters. We want to protect you. :hug2 We want to protect our homeschooling law from being re-defined.

cindi

[AttachedMamma]

Consider denying membership to those enrolled in a government school-at-home program . . . . Remember that “A little yeast works through the whole dough.”

:hunh Wow. While I respect the right of real homeschoolers to draw lines and make distinctions, referring to those of us outside those lines in this way--fellow believers, some of us--is extreme. And wrong.

ETA: It is the attitude encapsulated in this article that caused my dh and I to say we would never homeschool. He had a lot of exposure to it, and it's a complete turn off.


:hugheart I think if you really knew what pioneer homeschoolers went through to secure our homeschooling freedoms, you may have a better feel for where they are coming from.

While denying membership may seem harsh, I can understand it. I want to be in a support group or co-op with like-minded homeschoolers. While we all have our own style which best suits our family's needs, I need to feel that I am surrounded by HSers who have the same convictions as I do. A little yeast does work through the whole dough. If you have someone in a support group who is using VA, it grows. They start touting the virtues of "free curriculum/supplies" etc and perhaps a weary mom becomes enticed with the idea of the help or the $. The person who is using VA can't help the weary mom who is perhaps having financial trouble. The VA mom is operating from a different paradigm. What the weary mom needs is a HSing mom to give her money-saving tips, perhaps rally around her and take up an offering, bring meals, offer time mgmt tips, etc. But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties? And then she takes that route and it starts to grow throughout the group.

[Mamaka]

I don't hear any of the us vs/vcs mamas questioning the definition of homeschool. We're pretty much been saying "yeah, we don't homeschool, we school at home using a vs" :shrug What I do hear is hser's feeling threatened by the vs's and the families who choose to use them, and vs'ers being frustrated and hurt because they are often excluded or looked down upon. Which makes sense, I understand the difference in paradigm as Cindi pointed out.

:think It just seems like we're talking about more than one issue here. :shrug

[HomeWithMyBabies]

But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties?


Wouldn't that be completely up to her though? :scratch When I was looking at VA programs, it was totally up front that it was certain curriculum and there were certain criteria. It wasn't hidden. I think even a weary mom would be able weigh the pros and cons and make the choice that's best for her family.

[CelticJourney]

I don't hear any of the us vs/vcs mamas questioning the definition of homeschool. We're pretty much been saying "yeah, we don't homeschool, we school at home using a vs" I'm not sure the status of the poster, but I was responding to this:
If they are teaching their child at home then why isn't it homeschooling. :shrug

Yes, there are several issues being addressed here and it's making me dizzy. :) I don't think homeschoolers are at all threatened by Vs or charter or 'other' schoolers UNLESS they claim to be 'homeschoolers' because then it blurrs the legal and political boundaries.

[ArmsOfLove]

But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties?


Wouldn't that be completely up to her though? :scratch When I was looking at VA programs, it was totally up front that it was certain curriculum and there were certain criteria. It wasn't hidden. I think even a weary mom would be able weigh the pros and cons and make the choice that's best for her family.
Back to the birth analogy, though . . . during transition anyone can be talked into using pain meds. I even did up my birth plan with the statement, "I know I'll want pain relief during transition--DO NOT OFFER IT TO ME!" If a mom is struggling and something outside her value system is offered *that* is when she is often tempted to try it--especially if it is being touted as a wonderful "option". A homeschool support group needs to be a safe place. Just like at GCM we don't allow suggestions to cio, wean, etc., for the mom in difficult times. It's not fair to join a "homeschooling group" and when you hit that crisis the *advice* given is for VS.

That said, I've already made clear we include VS'ers in our group. We just make sure they understand the position of the group and our goals :heart

[Heather Micaela]

Consider denying membership to those enrolled in a government school-at-home program . . . . Remember that “A little yeast works through the whole dough.”

:hunh Wow. While I respect the right of real homeschoolers to draw lines and make distinctions, referring to those of us outside those lines in this way--fellow believers, some of us--is extreme. And wrong.

ETA: It is the attitude encapsulated in this article that caused my dh and I to say we would never homeschool. He had a lot of exposure to it, and it's a complete turn off.


:hugheart I think if you really knew what pioneer homeschoolers went through to secure our homeschooling freedoms, you may have a better feel for where they are coming from.

While denying membership may seem harsh, I can understand it. I want to be in a support group or co-op with like-minded homeschoolers. While we all have our own style which best suits our family's needs, I need to feel that I am surrounded by HSers who have the same convictions as I do. A little yeast does work through the whole dough. If you have someone in a support group who is using VA, it grows. They start touting the virtues of "free curriculum/supplies" etc and perhaps a weary mom becomes enticed with the idea of the help or the $. The person who is using VA can't help the weary mom who is perhaps having financial trouble. The VA mom is operating from a different paradigm. What the weary mom needs is a HSing mom to give her money-saving tips, perhaps rally around her and take up an offering, bring meals, offer time mgmt tips, etc. But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties? And then she takes that route and it starts to grow throughout the group.

It was already stated that those in a VS or CS are different and that a different term is needed so "pure" homeschool can be protected and promoted. And I already said I understand the need for support of that movement. But that doesnt have to be done by excluding people. I used the example of GCM - this is a breastfeeding supportive environment and yet formula feeders are not excluded. They just understand they can't post contrary to the idea that breasfeeding is the norm and should be done if at all possible. This is a christian board but atheists can join so long as the dont post contrary to christian beliefs. There is no reason at all a co-op cannot impose the same rules. I am perfectly capable about keeping my mouth shut on why I am in a charter and restrict my conversations to things I have in common with others in the group.

Crystal posted while I did.

[Mamaka]

Sorry, Elizabeth, I didn't mean to seem to referring directly to what you stated (and Sue is actually a hser who is being encouraging to vs families :heart). :hug

I was stating that in general in this thread, we keep coming back to the definition of "homeschool" and I wanted to point out that vs/vcs mamas are not arguing w/ or are un-supportive of that definition. We've been saying all along that we know we don't homeschool. :shrug

[HomeWithMyBabies]

But what if that weary mom happens to get into a conversation with the VA mom and sees it as the answer to her difficulties?


Wouldn't that be completely up to her though? :scratch When I was looking at VA programs, it was totally up front that it was certain curriculum and there were certain criteria. It wasn't hidden. I think even a weary mom would be able weigh the pros and cons and make the choice that's best for her family.
Back to the birth analogy, though . . . during transition anyone can be talked into using pain meds. I even did up my birth plan with the statement, "I know I'll want pain relief during transition--DO NOT OFFER IT TO ME!" If a mom is struggling and something outside her value system is offered *that* is when she is often tempted to try it--especially if it is being touted as a wonderful "option". A homeschool support group needs to be a safe place. Just like at GCM we don't allow suggestions to cio, wean, etc., for the mom in difficult times. It's not fair to join a "homeschooling group" and when you hit that crisis the *advice* given is for VS.

That said, I've already made clear we include VS'ers in our group. We just make sure they understand the position of the group and our goals :heart


Oh I can definitely understand have guidelines for a group, that's up to the group, I just think the part I quoted is a poor reason to exclude someone because people are responsible for their own choices.

There are some issues on which I tend to have a fight or flight response when pressured. Assuming VA parents go around pressuring people, if as a committed hs'er I felt strongly about not using one I would probably react strongly against the idea. If I wasn't pressured and it seemed like a reasonable and/or timely option for my family, then I'd be happy for the information. :shrug3 But if a hs'ing group would see a VA the way GCM handles cio or spanking advice I guess I'd feel a bit out of place anyway. :think

[CelticJourney]

I didn't take offense - just like you said, lots of issues being discussed and so I was just clarifing.

So is the topic being dialogued right now about support groups? If so, I dont' think GCM is a good comparison because we are so big and have so many different areas of discussion. We can have a forumla mom come and read in discipline and theology and never encounter a breast-feeding thread, but homeschool groups can be very small and it would depend entirely on how hemmed in the VS/Charter mom was to her requirements as to whether the hs group could actually be supportive.

[Heather Micaela]

I didn't take offense - just like you said, lots of issues being discussed and so I was just clarifing.

So is the topic being dialogued right now about support groups? If so, I dont' think GCM is a good comparison because we are so big and have so many different areas of discussion. We can have a forumla mom come and read in discipline and theology and never encounter a breast-feeding thread, but homeschool groups can be very small and it would depend entirely on how hemmed in the VS/Charter mom was to her requirements as to whether the hs group could actually be supportive.

Yes but the mom who both formula feeds and breastfeeds is welcome to post in the breastfeeding forum as long as she understands the position of the board.

I do not see why a support gruop should exclude someone because they *might* "wrongly influence" others. If you sign something that says you understand the postition of the group, you should be welcome unless you break that agreement.

Yes, there are several issues being addressed here and it's making me dizzy. I don't think homeschoolers are at all threatened by Vs or charter or 'other' schoolers UNLESS they claim to be 'homeschoolers' because then it blurrs the legal and political boundaries.
I agree on a political level, but on a personal practical level I am as much of a homeshooler as many others here. I even have less reqiremnts than some states do despite being in a charter. If I knew of a better term to use, I would use it. But I still dont see why I should be excluded from a group because the govt pays for my curriculam. I have more in common with a homeschooler than a brick and mortar school. I even unschool.

Since many different issues are being discussed, lets start some spin offs
What to title a VS/Charter http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=159901.0
I cluding others in co-ops http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=159902.0

[Mamaka]

There's also a thread for those who choose to vs/vcs here (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=159866.0)

[Teacher Mom]

I am requesting that this thread be locked. The conversation is branching out and I think we should go to those new threads :hug

[inesperada]

Locked at the request of the OP. :)