Issue with my anti-gentle discipline mother

[mammal_mama]

We went to see my 84yo mother for a couple of hours this past Saturday. Mom is very critical of my parenting in general -- as well as disagreeing with my AP/GD-style, she also thinks I lack the education to homeschool and has had talks with my dh about this. Dh gets fed up with all her criticisms of me, and sometimes says something, but mostly tries to let her words go in one ear and out the other, because she just disregards him and keeps doing it. And he doesn't want to get really mad, because he tends to lose it big-time.

I have sometimes felt like breaking all contact with Mom, but have held back from totally doing this, because I always feel guilty thinking of her passing with us on bad terms. So my solution has been to only see her about 1-2 times a month, for a couple of hours at a time. We live 30 minutes away and Mom prefers for us to come to her house, so we do. She only likes driving to places in her immediate neighborhood now. My brother lives in her basement, and my sister lives a mile down the road: they don't spend much time with her, but are available when she needs some immediate help, which doesn't happen often: Mom still does all her own personal care and most of her own housework: she does ask for help with heavier chores like vacuuming, which I'm glad to do when I'm there.

Well, things were going fairly smoothly on Saturday, we'd been there for about an hour, then my toddler started fiddling with the knobs on Mom's dishwasher, which Mom doesn't like, so I was trying to redirect dd to the front door. She's recently learned to open and close doors, and enjoys doing it over and over, and Mom has a storm-door to keep out the cold and doesn't mind the inner door being opened.

While I was talking with dd, Mom was sitting in the background, threatening to spank dd. I said, "No, we're not going to do that ... but I can see this is stressing you, and I don't want to cause you stress, so it's probably time for us to head on home now."

At about that point, my toddler suddenly switched gears and headed to the front door as I'd suggested, so I thought that'd give my older dd a few minutes to transition away from the cartoons she was watching (Mom gets more channels on her TV, and also enjoys being able to talk about her past without interruptions, so she doesn't see it as rude for our girls to watch her TV while we're visiting).

When I stepped into the bedroom to let my older dd know we were leaving soon, I guess Mom must have made some derogatory comment about me to dh (I think she'd been assuming that dh agreed with her about the spanking, because he used to be way more mainstream in his disciplinary views, but has been slowly moving towards Gentle Discipline: I recently discovered he's been at the Sears' site reading up on it on his own, and is looking for more Scriptural backup, so I'm hoping he'll read Crystal's book with me).

Anyhow, I suddenly heard dh yelling loudly and cussing at my mom, telling her to stay out of our business. He told me, "We need to leave NOW!" and headed out to the car, so I got the girls ready and came on out. Mom wondered what I'd been saying about her to dh to get him so upset with her, and I said, "He was upset when you threatened to spank dd, and I've told you not to do that."

I did apologize to my mom about dh's yelling ... apologizing is a bad habit of mine ... I knew Mom was really in the wrong, but dh's a big, strong guy, and she looked like such a frail little old lady just sitting there taking it all in. In my lifetime of dealing with my mom, I've learned that there's no point going off on her: she just meekly lets you rant at her, acts sweetly concerned (and puzzled) that you're upset (while managing to convey the idea that you're really "way out there" to get so worked up over such a "tiny" thing), promises to never again do whatever it is that's upset you, and then a short time later she's doing it all again, as if the conversation never happened.

Since I haven't felt okay about ending the relationship, I've just decided to accept that she's not changing, and minimize the contact -- and we certainly don't let her have one-on-one contact with our girls, though she has asked for this with our oldest, and seems sad (and puzzled) that we don't trust her.

By the way, this is the way my mom has been ever since I can remember, though our issues have certainly come to a head since I became a mom 7 years ago (at age 35). I realize some people have senility issues in their 80's -- but this doesn't seem to be the case with Mom.

I guess I'm just wondering if others are dealing with similar things, or if others can think of other options that just don't seem apparent to me, for dealing with this. There've been a couple of other occasions in the past 8 years of our marriage, when dh has totally lost it with my mom like this. So maybe he just shouldn't have to deal with my mom anymore: I'm certainly capable of driving there on my own with the girls, but having him there is usually a help.

I'm actually considering just talking with Mom on the phone, and not even bothering to go in person, since she's so impatient with my toddler right now (and my toddler's still not comfortable with separating from me). I've decided to not bring the issue up with dh, he hasn't seemed to want to talk about it, and he's been under a lot of stress lately: he has a couple of chronic health issues he's always dealing with, and some times are worse than others.

If my mom brings it up to me, I'm thinking I'll just say I disagreed with the yelling, but feel that dh was right to be upset with her, and reiterate (for the millionth time) that she doesn't have the right to threaten my children.

[Bonnie]

That's hard. :hugheart The best case scenario might be to visit without the kids...you mention your toddler not being comfortable away from you, but would your dh maybe be willing to take them to eat somewhere special or something after dropping you off or something? That would buy you 90 minutes, maybe. Sometimes you just have to out-passive-aggressive people. :sigh believe me, I know. :shifty If we lived closer to my GGMIL, we'd have a similar situation, I think, except that my DH would never confront her. In your case I'd probably be tripping over myself to avoid leaving her and dh alone together. :/

[Joanne]

We went to see my 84yo mother for a couple of hours this past Saturday. Mom is very critical of my parenting in general -- as well as disagreeing with my AP/GD-style, she also thinks I lack the education to homeschool and has had talks with my dh about this. Dh gets fed up with all her criticisms of me, and sometimes says something, but mostly tries to let her words go in one ear and out the other, because she just disregards him and keeps doing it. And he doesn't want to get really mad, because he tends to lose it big-time.

I have sometimes felt like breaking all contact with Mom, but have held back from totally doing this, because I always feel guilty thinking of her passing with us on bad terms. So my solution has been to only see her about 1-2 times a month, for a couple of hours at a time.

What I see is a lack of healthy boundaries. The (healthy) choices aren't allow your mom to make comments, talk inappropriately with DH or break contact.

The healthy choice is to make healthy boundaires:

1) No more talking to DH about your choices
2) No more comments or any kind about your parenting, direcly or indirectly

If she does, hang up or leave.

[joy]

In addition to what Joanne said - maybe you could let your husband off the hook a little; let him skip some visits to your mom's house, but ask that after your visits with her that he be extra emotionally available/supportive to you.

I don't expect my husband to visit my family every time I do, but he's emotionally available to me when I do visit them so I can call him, or i can just come home and konk out in a sympathetic home.

[mammal_mama]

I've never told dh he had to accompany me -- he just knows I like the support. But I agree that it's just too much for him to have to deal with right now -- or ever, really. Since I haven't been firm enough about setting the healthy boundaries (I've been so used to my mom all my life, but it's become a whole different ballgame now that I worry about my family being affected -- and of course, there's just that much more for her to criticize), well, since I haven't been firm enough, I think he feels a need to stand up for me.

I like Joanne's idea of hanging up or leaving, pronto, if she makes any critical comments. This will be easier to do if I just stick with phone contact for the time being, as it can be stressful trying to get both girls to "suddenly" switch gears if something happens that makes me feel it's time to go NOW.

[3PeasInAPod]

:hugheart

[mammal_mama]

Thanks to everyone who responded, for all your good advice and support!

I'm feeling more at peace about just keeping in touch with Mom by phone for the time being. She really seems to get the most enjoyment out of being able to talk about her past without interruption, plus of course this gives me more stories to pass on. So I think if I start calling her more at times when the girls are asleep or otherwise occupied, and just listen to her, this will make her happy and make things less stressful for my husband, girls, and me as well.

[canadiyank]

Glad you've come up with a solution for now! :tu Sounds like it will be beneficial, and then maybe sometimes you can go over while dh watches the girls or something and vacuum for her. Did you talk with dh about his cussing at your mom? That is not acceptable, no matter how many buttons she pushes.

:hug

[mama-hobbit]

Is there any way that you could go for little visits on your own? Maybe DH could watch the kiddos??

MOM - "Why didn't you bring the children?"

YOU - "Well mom, I've noticed that their behavior, though age appropriate, bothers you. It seems that you feel the need to correct my parenting and I don't want to spend my time with you arguing or defending myself. When you feel able to let me be the mommy to my children - without threats, comments, or criticizing, I'll be happy to start bringing them again. Until that time, DH is happy to have some daddy time so you and I can visit. Would you like some bean dip?"

[mammal_mama]

Glad you've come up with a solution for now! :tu Sounds like it will be beneficial, and then maybe sometimes you can go over while dh watches the girls or something and vacuum for her. Did you talk with dh about his cussing at your mom? That is not acceptable, no matter how many buttons she pushes.

:hug


No, I haven't talked with dh about Saturday's incident. I agree that it's not acceptable for dh to let things build up to the point where he blows a fuse -- and dh actually doesn't feel it's acceptable, either. He knows this is a real shortcoming that has sometimes gotten him into trouble.

However, in this case I really see the "letting things go" part as more my issue than his. As Joanne has pointed out, I need to start setting healthy boundaries with my mother -- and this is really my responsibility, not dh's. I think it's a million times harder to hear someone you love being criticized, than it is to bear the brunt of the criticism yourself. And I've put dh in the position where he's had to hear me being criticized a LOT.

It's not necessary (or interesting to people here) for me to go into all the details of her criticisms -- but suffice it to say that she did her best to "warn" dh when we were first engaged, about what a lazy, manipulative person I was. She said, "You're making a big mistake if you 'let' her quit her job, because she'll just sit around eating all day and get really fat, and the house will be a mess and you'll end up doing everything at home on top of working all day. If she works, you'll still have to do all the housework, but at least she'll be helping with the finances."

And in the 8 years since our marriage (I've been a housewife/SAHM for all but the first few weeks of our marriage), Mom has taken every opportunity she could to "sympathize" with dh, and say things like, "My daughter's really no help to you at all, is she?" Dh tells her she's wrong about me, but she just acts like she doesn't hear him. So to me, it's not just a matter of Mom "pushing buttons" -- it's more a matter of her not hearing people unless they're loudly telling her off.

Still, I agree that this should never happen again. So I need to quit putting dh into such impossible situations.

[mammal_mama]

Mama-hobbit, there may be some times in the future when dh will do things with the girls while I go see Mom. For now I'm just sticking with the phone -- and unless she happens to call me first, I'm planning to wait a while before I do that.

Actually, rehashing my issues with my mom here -- and remembering all the really rotten things she has said (and keeps saying) about me -- has made it harder for me to persuade myself that she really likes and cares about me "deep down." I honestly don't feel like she likes or accepts me at all -- or enjoys my company. Though she does like having me listen to her.

And I'm starting to think it's pretty nice of me to be willing to maintain any kind of contact with her at all.

[jenny_islander]

:hugheart

Your own mother. It's so hard when people we are supposed to trust and look up to concentrate on cutting us down.

If she was trying to scare off your husband even before you married, this isn't an issue of GBD vs. anti-GBD. This isn't a matter of opinions that can be changed. I would say that for your own health, boundaries are called for. If she picks and pokes at you so much behind your back and uses her time with you to look for cracks in which she can stick the knife, then you are not obligated to sit there and take it, mother or not. Best to head off this type of situation by communicating over the phone as much as possible and letting her reminisce if that's what she enjoys most. It sounds like you know how long you can talk with her before she decides it's time to take out the knife again.

[canadiyank]

Still, I agree that this should never happen again. So I need to quit putting dh into such impossible situations.


I "get" what you're saying. I still don't think it's your responsibility for preventing dh to cuss at a person! Sure it can be frustrating, and I'm glad he realizes it (I have issues with yelling and blowing up, so I can unfortunately relate)...but it's *his* responsibility to keep that from happening. He needs to develop those boundaries, too (and it sounds like he was trying to, in a way, by insisting you all leave and defending you :tu ). I just wanted to point out it's not your job to prevent things, apologize, and keep everybody happy. :yes2 Not that this is easy, and it sounds like you're definitely starting to do that.

And I agree with the other posters and your insights that this is much deeper than GD or not. Giving it some space for awhile and limiting it to contact over the phone sounds very healthy. I'm sorry you've been so hurt by your mom. :hug I think a lot of times that hurt gives us the strength and motivation to parent our own children differently.

:hug

[mammal_mama]

It sounds like you know how long you can talk with her before she decides it's time to take out the knife again.


Wow! It's amazing that you chose this analogy, and also the one of looking "for cracks in which she can stick the knife." That's the same analogy I've often used when I've thought about her behavior.

[mammal_mama]

I "get" what you're saying. I still don't think it's your responsibility for preventing dh to cuss at a person! Sure it can be frustrating, and I'm glad he realizes it (I have issues with yelling and blowing up, so I can unfortunately relate)...but it's *his* responsibility to keep that from happening. He needs to develop those boundaries, too (and it sounds like he was trying to, in a way, by insisting you all leave and defending you :tu ). I just wanted to point out it's not your job to prevent things, apologize, and keep everybody happy. :yes2 Not that this is easy, and it sounds like you're definitely starting to do that.

So true, and he doesn't hold me responsible for making sure it never happens, either. I just think it's unfair for me to keep putting dh into these situations with my mom.

And I agree with the other posters and your insights that this is much deeper than GD or not. Giving it some space for awhile and limiting it to contact over the phone sounds very healthy. I'm sorry you've been so hurt by your mom. :hug I think a lot of times that hurt gives us the strength and motivation to parent our own children differently.

:hug


Yes, it goes way beyond the GD issue. However, since a big component of our parenting and disciplinary styles, is how we see our children and how we interpret their behavior -- I'm realizing that when a parent chooses to view difficult/inconvenient behaviors as the child "being naughty," rather than as the child communicating with the parent, this can result in an adult relationship where the parent continues to see the (now adult) child in an overwhelmingly negative light.

When I was 16 months old, my mom was boiling some water and I reached up and pulled the pan down on myself, and got seriously burned. I don't think badly of my mom for not realizing I'd grown tall enough to reach the pan, and I realize we all make oversights sometimes -- but it gets kind of old to hear Mom recounting this incident with an emphasis on how impatient I was to get my breakfast, and how I wouldn't listen when she said, "Just a minute."

And when my oldest was a toddler, Mom couldn't understand why I insisted it wasn't safe for her to lay my (now deceased) dad's pills out on the kitchen table where my baby could reach them, while I was busy doing things for my dad. She felt my 1yo was capable of understanding that she needed to leave things alone and not put everything into her mouth.

Even though it ticked Mom off, when I came in the door I'd move the pills to an out-of-reach place until Dad was ready to take them with his next meal. It was the only way I could see to be able to help my parents (in the ways that they both wanted my help), without having to leave my child with someone else before she was ready to separate, or risk her being poisoned.

Even though GD isn't the whole issue -- the ways that parents view their children when they're children, can definitely shape their relationships for years to come.

[canadiyank]

Yeah, she seems to have a serious misunderstanding of age-appropriate behaviour. :/ And yah, you don't want her reactions to stuff to drive a wedge further between you *and* stunt her relationship with your kids. I remember having so many "extra" rules around my grandfather b/c he was so old country and patriarchal and toe-the-line that it was hard to get to know him b/c I should be seen and not heard. :shrug

[jenny_islander]

And when my oldest was a toddler, Mom couldn't understand why I insisted it wasn't safe for her to lay my (now deceased) dad's pills out on the kitchen table where my baby could reach them, while I was busy doing things for my dad. She felt my 1yo was capable of understanding that she needed to leave things alone and not put everything into her mouth.

:jawdrop

I remember a Dear Abby letter regarding a similar situation. A woman whose allergy to tomatoes required her to carry an Epi-Pen overheard one of her friends telling another one, "She's just making a spectacle of herself. Nobody is that allergic to tomatoes. I'm going to sneak some tomatoes into her food the next time we have a party and then I'll tell her over dessert. She won't be able to show off that little pen after that!"

Abby's reply was very strongly worded, as you might expect. Her point applies here, I think: The only response to this type of behavior is to protect yourself. The other person's sensibilities come a very distant second to your life, if they matter at all.

[mammal_mama]

I remember a Dear Abby letter regarding a similar situation. A woman whose allergy to tomatoes required her to carry an Epi-Pen overheard one of her friends telling another one, "She's just making a spectacle of herself. Nobody is that allergic to tomatoes. I'm going to sneak some tomatoes into her food the next time we have a party and then I'll tell her over dessert. She won't be able to show off that little pen after that!"

Abby's reply was very strongly worded, as you might expect. Her point applies here, I think: The only response to this type of behavior is to protect yourself. The other person's sensibilities come a very distant second to your life, if they matter at all.


It's good to hear your perspective on this: The friend I talked with at the time just encouraged me to see things from my mom's point of view, as an older person who'd got comfortable with her familiar routines and didn't want to change them for a child.

[jenny_islander]

I agree with your friend up to a point. If it's a matter of an older person not wanting to pick up every breakable thing for a grandchild's visit or not wanting kids bouncing on the bed or underfoot in the kitchen, that's one thing. But a one-year-old potentially consuming prescription medications intended for a grown man is not a matter of inconvenience or property damage. The child's safety must come first regardless of what the grandparent thinks the child "ought" to be able to do and regardless of how offended the grandparent may be by a line being drawn--and absolutely regardless of whether the parent is ever able to convince the grandparent that this is a matter of life and death.

I guess I'm trying to say that as you take care of your family, your mom may get mad at you and stay mad regardless of how hard you try to avoid it.

[Ned]

Well I'm in a bad mood tonight so you're gonna get my emotional reaction here, but here goes.......... She sounds just like my mother and MIL, both giving their opinions when they are not asked for thinking that for some reason they know better than you. YOU have done the research, she has not, YOU have seen both sides of gentle parenting, she has not, YOU are the mother of the child, she is not.

No bones about it - she is being manipulative. I paid a lot of money to find out that half my problems were my manipulative mother, making me feel bad, using emotional blackmail. Of course we love our Mums BUT even the Bible acknowledges the sins of the parents (generations). They are not always right. I would be grateful if my husband would address his mother, but I am the one who usually has to deal with her sly comments and opinions, even had both mothers try to blackmail my kids with money and toys to sleep in their own bed, both have threatened to smack and both were denied access to my girls until they realised that their interfering was wrong and disrespectful.

I understand just how you feel - you have taken a battering form your Mum, emotionally and it does dig away at your self-esteem whether we like to believe it or not. Mostly - it HURTS! It hurts like hell. They are portraying that we are incapable of coming up with good decisons ourselves, making us feel worthless instead of supporting us and being proud of us. They have let us down - SO WE'RE NOT GONNA DO THAT TO OUR KIDS - RIGHT?!

You keep, on keeping on girl! :cheer :cheer :cheer Don't let them undermine the hard work you are putting in to your relationship with your children - you're investing in their future. Stick to your guns. :clap

Practically, I would stay away and do the phone thing. If it comes up about what happened, tell her straight (not rudely of course). She needs to learn that everyone has their limits and she pushed too hard with your DH. She is big enough to know better - it was a choice she made to say manipulative things to your DH and to you.

Meanwhile :pray4. I have seen HUGE changes in my Dad in his treatment of my children and his attitude to Homeschooling since commiting it all to prayer. As for my mother - she's a hard case, it might take a bit longer.