I'm offering unsolicited advice on nurseries.......

[Joanne]

No one specifically asked, so I decided to post this in my own thread so that no one feels I am singling them out.

If you'd like to use a nusery at your church and truly want them to contact you if your child fusses or cries, I have some advice.

Be honest and direct. Don't go into the conversation trying to convince the workers to agree with your choice. All you ask it that they honor it. You do not need to explain age expected behavior. You don't need to explain attachment theory. You don't have to explain a recent move, Dad's deployment, financial troubles.

It's your child; you make the rules. If you want to be paged the moment the child shows discomfort, get the workers to agree or don't leave your child there. Do not let the workers discuss the issue with you. Do not allow them to share their suggestions for having the child stay. Do not let them be your Holy Spirit and decide for you that you need to be in the service uninterupted.

You do NOT answer to that worker or the church on your parenting decisions. They do not have that role in your life; do not give them that power.

"Nursery worker. This is my child. I expect to be notified immediately if they cry. I know there are other parenting approaches that handle this differently. I have not chosen those approaches. I want to be notified immediately of my child's discomfort. I do not want you to "wait a bit" or to delay. This is not open for discussion. Do you agree?"

If they argue, do not leave your child and get upset later that your child was left to cry for you. The church volunteers or staff give you the information you need; trust your gut.

Remember, you do NOT HAVE TO explain yourself or garner their agreement with your choices.

[Blue Aurora]

I totally agree.

Can I just say every time I see you post I want to give you a big hug and kiss.... :giggle :kiss :hug :heart

[Dana Joy]

:yes
I have never once had an issue- it was never a discussion- it was "Here is my son- his name is Little Man, he has no food allergies, and I need to be called the minute he cries.'

[joystrength]

Joanne:

You totally need to change your "name" to TheEmpowermentLady.

THANKS!! for reminding us that WE are the parents God chose for our children. And for reminding us to act like it!

[allisonintx]

I have really appreciated that our church always honors the feelings of the babies by getting the parents promptly, and/or encouraging the parents to keep their children in service if it is too hard for them to stay in childcare, and it's the first place I've ever been where that was true.

ITA with Joanne, we are not responsible for the nursery workers ideas/feelings about parenting and nursery care. We are only responsible for our own children and their protection!

[poleidopy]

Good reminder/advice. :yes Thank you.

[klpmommy]

ITA. Even with E at nearly 4 I still make sure to inform the workers in her room that if she asks for me they are to come & get me or page me. I get *looks* and even comments from some of the people, but like with so many other things if I am strong in my stance & words/tone of voice I get far less arguments than if I sound unsure of myself. I am definately the "radical" one at church, but these are *my* children & *I* am the one who has to deal with the fallout during the week if they are upset on Sunday.

[Naked Camper]

well stated :yes
We have not been attending church for quite awhile now because there was no way ds would be fine in a nursery and is/was too disruptive in service. Our plan is to return soon because ds seems like he might be old enough now to play with peers and be w/o mommy in the nursery. But, yes, I plan on making it a simple point that I need to be called immediately - no ifs ands or buts.

[Bonnie]

Excellent points, all.

So...

How would you personally handle or how would you recommend someone else handle it if she has firmly and confidently requested that they contact her immediately if her child is distressed, and she goes to pick up her child after the service and the child has salt tracks on her cheeks, clearly indicating that the child spent at least several minutes at hard crying... Understanding that her spouse may not view this as sufficient reason to move to a different church ;) and noting that the woman doesn't want to point out the tracks too much as they'd probably just make sure to wipe her face better next time. :/ And in some cases, going to get the mother would force them to violate the 2-adult rule, etc. Is this simply an untenable situation?

This is partially hypothetical...our current situation is pretty good in than Nora *loves* the nursery, but I am by no means assured that I would be contacted if there was a problem, and it did happen at a church we left for other reasons.

[Joanne]

Understanding that her spouse may not view this as sufficient reason to move to a different church and noting that the woman doesn't want to point out the tracks too much as they'd probably just make sure to wipe her face better next time. And in some cases, going to get the mother would force them to violate the 2-adult rule, etc. Is this simply an untenable situation?

I'd treat it similarly to a child who is lying. I'd not ask questions I know the answer to.

I'd be direct, and give them one more chance: My baby was crying last week and in spite of my very clear directions, I was not called. That is unacceptable. I will try it again this week and it there is a repeat, I will be taking the issue up the chain of command."

[Bonnie]

:nak :think :yes2 :)

[Soliloquy]

I completely agree w/ this advice. :yes

I've had a nursery worker ignore my instructions and I've witnessed them ignoring the instructions of other parents too many times. Your child, your rules. If they cannot or will not follow your directions, it's important to tell whoever is in charge.

[Dana Joy]

Bonnie- they don't have a way of calling you without leaving the room? We have a number system and the machine to input the numbers is in the nursery and the preschool. Also the children's minister is always wandering the halls looking to help where needed.

[Mama Bird]

I officially reserve Joanne for when I feel that Josiah is big enough to be in the nursery. FIRST DIBS!!!!! :shifty

[Bonnie]

Bonnie- they don't have a way of calling you without leaving the room? We have a number system and the machine to input the numbers is in the nursery and the preschool. Also the children's minister is always wandering the halls looking to help where needed.


Nope. In our current situation, the CE head teaches a class... they try to have a couple of extra people in the nursery to supplement the woman who totally runs it every Sunday, but that's dependent on the number of kids that service. Usually it's just one extra. While this church isn't especially harsh toward children (it's a UMC), it's pretty mainstream in the assumption that if a child gets upset during the service the nursery folks will deal with it. And while I'm familiar with the number systems (the IL's church has one) I've never seen one at a medium/small-sized (couple hundred or so) church like ours. Just big ones.

The church where the obvious crying happened was partially my fault in that I didn't follow my Momma Gut. I should never have left her there. :no2 They were awful, the head of the nursery bragging about how it *only* took six weeks for her baby to stop crying when she left her herself, that they "toughen up" and it's "great" for the moms when it happens. :/ They assured me that if she got upset they'd get me, and had little name tags the parents were supposed to clip on so they'd be findable in the congregation, but I just KNEW they wouldn't honor what they said...Yeah, not my proudest moment.

[Chris3jam]

I did the same thing. "Call me immediately when he/she starts crying." and wrote it on the sheet, just in case they didn't "listen" or hear. No discussion. I also totally upset (and was probably instrumental for the "new" policy they posted soon after :shifty ;) about not having any adult in the nursery beside the nursery workers during nursery time) a few people by *gasp* staying in the nursery until I was certain my child was having fun and not upset. Sometimes I'd be there most of the service, sometimes half, sometimes not at all. If they want children in the nursery so as not to disrupt the service and keep the adults from focusing on the message. . ..well, then, they need to put up with me *in* the nursery. But, I probably wouldn't have felt that way if they nursery workers didn't interpret "call me immediately" as to mean, "give the child a few minutes to see if they calm down." :mad

[mom2threegirls]

Thanks for the advice :). I was lucky enough to have some wonderful ladies in the nursery that really did call me the instant that they needed me :heart.

I have a hard time now dealing with the parents that could care less if their little one is upset during the service and actually get upset when you call them :mad. They just expect me to leave their extremely upset crying child alone in a playpen so they can enjoy the service :no2. I try my best to calm them but the babes want their mommies :sigh. What would you recommend in that case? It's not my place to be forcing my parenting decisions on them but it breaks my heart to put these babies through this...

[me]

No one specifically asked, so I decided to post this in my own thread so that no one feels I am singling them out.

If you'd like to use a nusery at your church and truly want them to contact you if your child fusses or cries, I have some advice.

Be honest and direct. Don't go into the conversation trying to convince the workers to agree with your choice. All you ask it that they honor it. You do not need to explain age expected behavior. You don't need to explain attachment theory. You don't have to explain a recent move, Dad's deployment, financial troubles.

It's your child; you make the rules. If you want to be paged the moment the child shows discomfort, get the workers to agree or don't leave your child there. Do not let the workers discuss the issue with you. Do not allow them to share their suggestions for having the child stay. Do not let them be your Holy Spirit and decide for you that you need to be in the service uninterupted.

You do NOT answer to that worker or the church on your parenting decisions. They do not have that role in your life; do not give them that power.

"Nursery worker. This is my child. I expect to be notified immediately if they cry. I know there are other parenting approaches that handle this differently. I have not chosen those approaches. I want to be notified immediately of my child's discomfort. I do not want you to "wait a bit" or to delay. This is not open for discussion. Do you agree?"

If they argue, do not leave your child and get upset later that your child was left to cry for you. The church volunteers or staff give you the information you need; trust your gut.

Remember, you do NOT HAVE TO explain yourself or garner their agreement with your choices.

:clap

[righteous mama]

We have pagers. They are awesome. :rockon

Joanne. Great post. Our former church was a mix of get it and not get it. The workers actually got it. A lot of the ladies in there were lovely, hm, hate to say, but former addicts. (That sounds scary, but you had to be there...they seriously were the most attentive and loving women) They understood the grace and love that I was trying to show my child. The children's director did not. She told me one time, "You know, she'll be fine. You just have to rip her off like a bandaid." I said, "No, I don't. I understand that's what you believe, but it is not what I believe. And, this little girl is very shy. I do not need her hating church or distrusting me because someone thinks I need uninterupted time at church." She was clearly irritated, but they always called me if she needed me.

This church. I have never been called. The reason why is because they allow me to stand there until she is ready for me to go. They take her into their arms and love her while I'm still there. I can stay for as long as I need to without them ever saying a word. One time someone said something and I informed them that I was fine and that she is my ministry. My oldest will walk into Sunday school and never look back...my youngest is fearful and unsure. Even though we've been attending for two years, she is still unsure. That's ok. I want her to be comfortable and love church. She does, but sometimes it takes a bit longer for her to get there.

[diamondintherough]

Joanne--thank you for the wonderful, unsolicited advice!

I don't leave my kids in the nursery till they're at least a year old and dd's birthday is next week, so we may run into this soon. Never had a problem at our previous church, but this one has many Ezzo'ers, so we shall see...

[Iarwain]

Wonderful advice! I have been very firm with many nursery workers in the past. I inform them that I do not let my babies cry and that I am to be called at the first peep. I specify that I do not want them to give them a "few minutes to calm down" I want to be called immediately. I have had very few problems.

[mybodymyself]

Joanne,

Thank you for starting this thread on this.

[3PeasInAPod]

well stated :yes
We have not been attending church for quite awhile now because there was no way ds would be fine in a nursery and is/was too disruptive in service. Our plan is to return soon because ds seems like he might be old enough now to play with peers and be w/o mommy in the nursery. But, yes, I plan on making it a simple point that I need to be called immediately - no ifs ands or buts.


Ditto for us too. I think our ds's are about the same age... We're going to be trying soon too.

[Joanne]

I have a hard time now dealing with the parents that could care less if their little one is upset during the service and actually get upset when you call them . They just expect me to leave their extremely upset crying child alone in a playpen so they can enjoy the service . I try my best to calm them but the babes want their mommies . What would you recommend in that case? It's not my place to be forcing my parenting decisions on them but it breaks my heart to put these babies through this...

IMO, respect for parental authority and decisions must go both ways. I don't always agree with the decisions of other parents, but I do not comment or persuade in situations that dictate mutual respect.

It helps that I am far from the baby/toddler years. I would not change anything about how I dealt with my children, but I'd give more space and understanding to other choices. I've seen great kids come from a wide variety of families embracing a range of choices. Today, I can *see* that a mom or dad or both might need the uninterupted worship or study. That does not mean I support or believe in CIO, but I also don't categorically label separation as "detached".

[LeeDee]

I keep my babies with me until they're old enough to talk well (like tell me what they did in the nursery, or tell the ladies there how they feel). My current church is good about it, they let me stay down there in the nursery with her if I want, or they run a speaker of the service into the hall so I can sit with Zoe in tehre and listen. They don't mind me bringing her int he service either.

A previous church I went to though, I used to get lectured constantly about how I needed to let the baby go without me, and I need time away from them and 9 months is long enough to breastfeed and I should be taking my baby to mother and toddler groups, week on week the same darn lecture and I was too polite to say anything back. It annoyed me though and I couldn't stick it anymore so we left, which is sad cause it was otherwise a good church and I do love the people there.

[Iarwain]

Regarding CIO in the nursery, there's more than just parenting decisions involved there. Listening to a baby cry is distressing for almost anyone and more often than not upsets the other children in the nursery. Often there's a domino effect. When one child starts crying the others often follow suit. Nursery workers do have a sound basis for calling the parents of a distressed child, even if the parents don't wish to be called. It's one thing to let your child CIO in your own home (though we all agree that it's not the best thing for the child) and quite another to expect someone else to do so.

[Serafine]

Regarding CIO in the nursery, there's more than just parenting decisions involved there. Listening to a baby cry is distressing for almost anyone and more often than not upsets the other children in the nursery. Often there's a domino effect. When one child starts crying the others often follow suit. Nursery workers do have a sound basis for calling the parents of a distressed child, even if the parents don't wish to be called. It's one thing to let your child CIO in your own home (though we all agree that it's not the best thing for the child) and quite another to expect someone else to do so.


:yes

[BHope]

Do not let them be your Holy Spirit and decide for you that you need to be in the service uninterupted.


Amen.

When DD1 was little and still an "only" the nursery workers decided collectively that I needed to learn that my child *would* settle down if I would just "give it a chance and stop running in to get my daughter every time she fussed." So one Sunday they staunchly refused to come get me until my daughter VOMITED from wailing as long as she did. :mad

Needless to say, that was the last time I used nursery with her until she was old enough to speak and I was at another church with a more caring staff.

[Aisling]

Good post, Joanne.

I actually had to pull my dd out of a nusery program over an issue like this. The head nursery worker informed me while I was still pregnant, "Ohhh, after your second baby comes, you'll change your mind. ;)" I let her know that I had no intention of loving my second child less than the first :shifty, and informed her I wouldn't be entrusting my kids with her anymore.

I've been in other churches where they're very good about paging me. :tu I usually tell them, "This is Magpie, and she can't eat anything but what's in this baggie. If she starts crying, she likely won't stop. You need to call me as soon as she starts up. Seriously. :poke" :giggle

[mama-hobbit]

Our nursery has the policy that we do not allow children to CIO. If a parent wants their child to "try" and insists on leaving they are firmly told that we will allow no more then 5 minutes of crying - if the child does not calm down we will call - leaving them to cry (even off and on) for 1.5+ hours is not acceptable to us! It is disrupting to the other children who are not upset, and our staff are not there to make babies learn to separate from mom - they are they to care for those who are happy to play there... we're willing to give a kiddo a minute or two to settle, but otherwise, we have a lovely parents room in the back of the sanctuary and kids are always welcome in the service as well.

[Aisling]

Our nursery has the policy that we do not allow children to CIO. If a parent wants their child to "try" and insists on leaving they are firmly told that we will allow no more then 5 minutes of crying - if the child does not calm down we will call - leaving them to cry (even off and on) for 1.5+ hours is not acceptable to us! It is disrupting to the other children who are not upset, and our staff are not there to make babies learn to separate from mom - they are they to care for those who are happy to play there... we're willing to give a kiddo a minute or two to settle, but otherwise, we have a lovely parents room in the back of the sanctuary and kids are always welcome in the service as well.

Seriously, I need to visit your church! :shifty :heart

[Marsha]

Our nursery has the policy that we do not allow children to CIO. If a parent wants their child to "try" and insists on leaving they are firmly told that we will allow no more then 5 minutes of crying - if the child does not calm down we will call - leaving them to cry (even off and on) for 1.5+ hours is not acceptable to us! It is disrupting to the other children who are not upset, and our staff are not there to make babies learn to separate from mom - they are they to care for those who are happy to play there... we're willing to give a kiddo a minute or two to settle, but otherwise, we have a lovely parents room in the back of the sanctuary and kids are always welcome in the service as well.

Seriously, I need to visit your church! :shifty :heart


Well, that's how our last two churches (UMC) have been! Well, now that my youngest is two, I tell them no more than 10 mminutes. And they know I don't mean 10 minutes of SCREAMING type crying, cause we've discussed it. But 10 minutes of not getting happy and playing and engaging in some way, I get called. And trust me, I get called about evry other time.

I also work in the 2 yo room every other Sunday for Sunday School , not service, and I've never seen them let any child cry. Even the smaller ones, and toddlers, they walk the hall with them for about 5 minutes, and then call. And when our pagers didn't work very well (thank GOD we got new ones) the director who is always in the hall and aware of who is crying/not settling and it's HER call as to when to call and she's awesome, would come get us.

I knew there were reasons I loved my adopted/chosen denomination.

[mama-hobbit]

So... when are you coming? :shrug ;)

[illinoismommy]

We have vibrating pagers given to us from the nursery and they have called me every single week except for this last one, where she made it through the entire service happy in the nursery.... the nursery worker seemed excited :heart ....

[apmommyto4]

thanks--I needed this! I always feel that I need to explain myself...

[sparkprincess]

well stated :yes
We have not been attending church for quite awhile now because there was no way ds would be fine in a nursery and is/was too disruptive in service. Our plan is to return soon because ds seems like he might be old enough now to play with peers and be w/o mommy in the nursery. But, yes, I plan on making it a simple point that I need to be called immediately - no ifs ands or buts.


This is us exactly!! :yes

[knitlove]

I am on the other side of the counter, I don't have kids but work in the nursery every Sunday, and I would be so happy if parents said this to me. I don't like keeping crying children in there. I keep getting reactions of just let them cry I don't want to be disturbed reaction from parents. It is much easer to deal with 20 children (there are other adults in there not just me with 20 children under 2) if none of them are crying, I would be overjoyed if all my parents didn't want there kids to CIO.

[Maggie]

Our nursery has the policy that we do not allow children to CIO. If a parent wants their child to "try" and insists on leaving they are firmly told that we will allow no more then 5 minutes of crying - if the child does not calm down we will call - leaving them to cry (even off and on) for 1.5+ hours is not acceptable to us! It is disrupting to the other children who are not upset, and our staff are not there to make babies learn to separate from mom - they are they to care for those who are happy to play there... we're willing to give a kiddo a minute or two to settle, but otherwise, we have a lovely parents room in the back of the sanctuary and kids are always welcome in the service as well.

This is such a FANTASTIC policy! :tu :rockon So great to insist that the children's needs are attended to! :heart

Great post, Joanne!

[BlessedBlue]

We have pagers in our nursery. :tu

I've spent several months in the nursery getting DS and DD acclimated to the environment. Every week, I've said to the workers there that I don't want my children to associate God's house with sadness and tears. Every time I drop DS off now, I give the same speech: "Call me as soon as he starts to get upset. I don't want him to be afraid of God's house, or dread his time here." Sometimes he makes it through the whole service (I check through the one-way mirror) and sometimes he doesn't. They page me right away! (Of course, I subscribe to the "trust, then verify" school of thought. They know I check up on them during the service.)

I think I got this script from this board several years ago when I was starting out with DD. She never needed the script, though. She loves meeting new people!

[kellydd00]

I am lucky in two ways - I am the nursery director at our church and it's so small that even if she is in there with someone else, I can hear her cry right away. But two Sunday's ago I attended a different church because a friend of mine from high school is the minister and it was their first Sunday. I did not leave dd in the nursery because there was no way for them to get ahold of me if she cried. I just wasn't leaving her with strangers and no way for them to contact me.

[mammal_mama]

I'd love to find a church like mama hobbit's! Unfortunately, we seem to be in a denomination that advocates a more behavioristic approach toward babies and children. When my oldest was a baby, I spent my Sundays alternating between holding her in the sanctuary and hanging out in the nursery. Then as she became an active toddler, we ended up in the nursery practically all of the time.

With my second, I don't even attend regularly any more. I personally wish more churches in my denomination made parents feel welcome to bring their babies and small children into the sanctuary -- but there's such an emphasis on that "special touch from God" that you're going to miss if you're not in the right place at the right time (i.e. the church sanctuary), with your eyes and ears fully attuned to the pulpit, and absolutely nothing to "distract" you. Meaning, you're going to miss out if you're distracted -- and you may even be guilty of making someone else miss out if your baby coos at a crucial moment.

The whole "distraction" thing was used as a means to make me feel bad about nursing in the sanctuary -- because some man with sexual addictions was liable to come in off the street and get so focused on what was going on with my breasts, he'd totally miss the salvation message.

I do like Joanne's advice to clearly state your expectations to nursery workers. And sometimes you really do have to painstakingly spell it out. My oldest was 3 when she started separating from me to go to children's church -- and I thought I'd made it clear to the teacher that I wanted dd to be allowed to join us in the sanctuary at any point that she wanted to (the sanctuary was right outside the children's church room).

It had worked well with the other teachers -- but this particular time, when dd came to us she was clearly distraught. She said her teacher initially told her "No" when she asked to come to us, and dd spent some time crying under the table before the teacher would finally let her come.

When I talked with the teacher, she was like, "Oh, you really meant you wanted me to let her go right away, the first time she asked?" She'd just automatically assumed I wanted her to give it about 10 minutes, and see if dd started having fun again. This teacher didn't make the same mistake again -- but we had to spend some more time staying in children's church with dd, before she started feeling comfortable again.