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View Full Version : Non-coersive vs too permissive.


janethepain
09-27-2007, 07:13 PM
I have read all of the non-coersive parenting books out there and I love that type of parenting. I aspire to be that kind of parent. However, I am finding a hard time between being non-coersive and too permissive. I feel like I'm allowing my son to do a lot of things that I shouldn't and not setting clear limits. Pam Leo wrote something that really made sense. The child is seeking limits.
I'm a softie by nature. I am having a hard time, because I feel like I don't want to see my son cry, I get flustered and I allow him to boss me around.
To make it clear: I don't allow him to be hurtful to me or other children. No way. But things like misbehaving in restaurants or standing on pieces of furniture he shouldn't be standing on, or going thru the fridge "for fun"

I really hope to get no judgement here. I am looking for suggestions on how to be more firm, how to stick to my decisions, how to make him understand that certain things are just not ok to do. I understand that everyone has their ideas of what's appropriate and what's not...but I think that most moms will understand what I'm talking about. Like basic common sense things.

And it doesn't help that my DH always points out that I'm too permissive.

mamaKristin
09-27-2007, 07:34 PM
I think the key is to define what are your non-negotiable boundaries. What behaviors/actions will make YOU crazy. What behaviors/actions are appropriate/inappropriate for being out in public. That's a good place to start. Then you enforce the boundaries. I don't know if it's truly possible to be non-coercive and still enforce boundaries though. :shrug Especially when in other's homes or in public. I like to aim for low-coercion, but I'm still the mom, and I will make things happen when I need to.

For example:
I don't like my kids eating anywhere but at the table. I don't like crumbs all over the place, I don't like food being where food shouldn't be, I don't want to clean sticky stuff off my couch. It makes me CRAZY to have that happen. Therefore, in our home, food is for the table. Period. I use the 5 steps (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=250.0), and will help my child maintain the boundary by either helping them back to the table, or removing the food until they can sit at the table if they choose to get down and walk around with food.

The boundaries are going to be different from family to family, situation to situation. If he shouldn't be standing on a piece of furniture, then you need to help him not do that...but not stopping him when you want to stop him is being permissive. Clear limits are a really good thing for children - and you can phrase them in a more positive way. Take "get off the couch" vs. "feet on the floor" or "no, no don't hit" vs. "hands are for gentle touches only".

allisonintx
09-27-2007, 07:38 PM
non-coercive parenting is one of those things that looks great in writing but is near impossible to maintain in Real Life where children do have to sit in car seats.

AmyDoll
09-27-2007, 07:49 PM
I'm a softie by nature. I am having a hard time, because I feel like I don't want to see my son cry, I get flustered and I allow him to boss me around.

Big feelings can be overwhelming! But we all have them & part of my job as mom is to help my kids process and deal with those big feelings - not just act out. Does that make sense?
I'm not sure how old Max is, but one thing we're dealing with here is climbing! Nicholas loves to stand on the craft table. We have a rule that chairs are for sitting and we don't stand on tables. I move the baby to the floor & tell him "feet go on the floor" and he cries and hollers. I reflect those big mad feelings, hug him and we move on. It's so important to let him know that he can be frustrated and angry & the rules don't change. My rules are to keep us safe and to keep the house running smoothly - there are no arbitrary rules.

We don't practice non-coercive parenting. Stuff has to get done & little people have to be with Mom. I'm kind and gentle but I'm not wearing Depends bc my toddler is afraid of the bathroom at Target. :giggle

Joanne
10-02-2007, 09:12 AM
I really hope to get no judgement here. I am looking for suggestions on how to be more firm, how to stick to my decisions, how to make him understand that certain things are just not ok to do. I understand that everyone has their ideas of what's appropriate and what's not...but I think that most moms will understand what I'm talking about. Like basic common sense things.

Prayerfully decide what parenting paradigm you want to embrace. I can offer tons of into on how to be firm, but if you are looking for ways to be firm and also "nice", it won't work.

Non coercive books, sites and discussions are very seductive, especially to parents who have an intellectual "pull" that direction or fear "negative" emotions.

Dana Joy
10-02-2007, 09:16 AM
I think a great place to start is to read The Continuum Concept. it is not about non coersive parenting- but it appeals to the intellectual side of me that is drawn to NCP.

loveberry
10-02-2007, 09:25 PM
But things like misbehaving in restaurants or standing on pieces of furniture he shouldn't be standing on, or going thru the fridge "for fun"


Specific examples like this are easier to give concrete answers to, so...

Misbehaving in public - When Alex was small we left places. We sat on a lot of benches outside restaurants waiting for the rest of the party to finish, we walked away from full carts in the grocery, we left playdates and events I hated to miss, etc. Part of it was about teaching him but more of it was about recognizing his inability to do well in certain situations. Maturity and practice mostly cured it, but leaving was often the only kind thing to do, for him and for all the people around us.

Standing on things he shouldn't stand on - Walk over, saying something like, "Tables are for dishes. Floors are for standing. Keep your feet on the floor." And while you are talking move him to the floor. Give your words meaning, keep him safe, and teach the concept, all in one movement. The same concepts work for any physical misbehavior - address it verbally while making the fix with actions. You may have to repeat it until you are tired of hearing yourself say it, but with repetition and maturity he will get it. :)

I hope that helps!

ArmsOfLove
10-02-2007, 10:02 PM
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=32243.0this is our official position as a board on TCS/NCP. In short :shifty we don't support it. At all. It *is* permissive--in fact, it's permissive to the point that imo it's likely to be abusive :( check out www.aolff.org (http://www.aolff.org) and the GOYBP site linked to from there :)

Marsha
10-03-2007, 05:46 AM
I will say that having that "ideal" in my head had me actually forgetting that GBD is Grace Based DISCIPLINE. Everything I read about parenting was read through that filter, too. It made transitioning to three and four (where they need absolute boundaries because you can't physically "help" them as much) more difficult than it had to be.

And I think it's unfair to children. I think they grow up better and grow up more when soemone else is holding up the boundaries so they don't have to.

It has taken me the last two years to get the "ideal" of NCP out of my head and to embrace being a leader.

katiekind
10-03-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm a softie by nature, too, Jane. It was really hard for me to realize that I needed to be more determined about certain things than my two year old, when by nature he was always more passionate about everything, while by nature I'm more of a "ok, whatever, if you feel that strongly about it" kind of person. So it took me awhile to find my feet as an authority figure and to realize that I had the right as well as the duty to set the boundaries and enforce them graciously but firmly.

There's definitely a learning curve for the softies among us. :hug2

Singingmom
10-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Another softie here. :hug2 I want to tell you that it is really freeing to learn to allow your child his big feelings. To let him cry if he's sad about hearing "no" or even to yell, and then to see that he's fine and you're fine and you enforced an important boundary.

janethepain
10-05-2007, 07:34 PM
Thank you very much for all the replies. I am reading thru all of them and checking out all the links. :)

janethepain
10-05-2007, 07:41 PM
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=32243.0this is our official position as a board on TCS/NCP. In short :shifty we don't support it. At all. It *is* permissive--in fact, it's permissive to the point that imo it's likely to be abusive :( check out www.aolff.org (http://www.aolff.org) and the GOYBP site linked to from there :)


I guess I was very broad in my statement of "non-coersive"...possibly I should have said "low-coersive", since anyway even if I wanted, I wouldn't be able to be a non-coersive parent. I feel like I'm too permissive rather then non-coersive or low-coersive.
That's why I'm struggling actually, since I cannot seem to find a balance... Anyway, I would be interested in getting your book...

janethepain
10-05-2007, 07:46 PM
I think the key is to define what are your non-negotiable boundaries. What behaviors/actions will make YOU crazy. What behaviors/actions are appropriate/inappropriate for being out in public. That's a good place to start. Then you enforce the boundaries. I don't know if it's truly possible to be non-coercive and still enforce boundaries though. :shrug Especially when in other's homes or in public. I like to aim for low-coercion, but I'm still the mom, and I will make things happen when I need to.

For example:
I don't like my kids eating anywhere but at the table. I don't like crumbs all over the place, I don't like food being where food shouldn't be, I don't want to clean sticky stuff off my couch. It makes me CRAZY to have that happen. Therefore, in our home, food is for the table. Period. I use the 5 steps (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=250.0), and will help my child maintain the boundary by either helping them back to the table, or removing the food until they can sit at the table if they choose to get down and walk around with food.

The boundaries are going to be different from family to family, situation to situation. If he shouldn't be standing on a piece of furniture, then you need to help him not do that...but not stopping him when you want to stop him is being permissive. Clear limits are a really good thing for children - and you can phrase them in a more positive way. Take "get off the couch" vs. "feet on the floor" or "no, no don't hit" vs. "hands are for gentle touches only".


Thanks...I understand what you mean. I have to value and respect my own comfort as well...I'm working on setting the limits, I really do.

janethepain
10-05-2007, 07:49 PM
I will say that having that "ideal" in my head had me actually forgetting that GBD is Grace Based DISCIPLINE. Everything I read about parenting was read through that filter, too. It made transitioning to three and four (where they need absolute boundaries because you can't physically "help" them as much) more difficult than it had to be.

And I think it's unfair to children. I think they grow up better and grow up more when soemone else is holding up the boundaries so they don't have to.

It has taken me the last two years to get the "ideal" of NCP out of my head and to embrace being a leader.


So I guess you were also interested in NCP for a while? It's funny, because I know deep down inside it will not work with my child or in general, but another poster was right to say that it can be very attractive. Almost like "an ideal" world that doesn't exist.
That's why I asked this question here, because I am struggling with setting limits and I go between hot and cold. One day I feel like I'm too strict, others I feel like I'm too permissive. I think my son gets confused with mixed messages I give him.

Marsha
10-06-2007, 04:42 AM
I didn't even read about NCP. I didn't know that's what it was called. That was just my natural bent. And things I did read seemed to lean that way.

I honestly thought that if I APed, then my child would love me and WANT to do what I wanted. I mean, that was stupid, right? But I thought all I would have to do was say "Let's" and she would say "yay!" I am simplying it, but that's basically the idea I had, I think. And if she disagreed, I thuoght she had the right to change my mind. AFter all, we were the adults and could change ours. I think there needs to be a detox forum for us, too. Almost everything I read was predicated on detoxing from punitiveness and therefore *I* read it as validating and intensifying my need to be no or low coercion.

Guess what? My dd is a person who doesn't want to do what I want, even when it's necessary. That's when I have to be the mom. It doesn't help that choices seem to panic her and she functions better with tight boundaries and expected demands on her time. It took me a long time to do that. I still struggle with it. But I'm doing much better with my second child, and I feel bad about the adult decisions I left to my older one at 1,2, and 3 years old.

And that rule of thumb about if it bothers you, it's permissive? That didn't work for me, for almost anything, I could say "you know what, in five years will this matter?" No, toys on the floor will not matter in 5 years. But allowing my dd to skate responsibility and defy my authority will. Does that make sense?

Then on the other hand, you could do like me and panic and try to exert your authority in a punitivie way. Balance takes/took time. Keep reading here, it's seriously the only thing tha has worked for me because you get broad perspcectives.

mamahammer
10-06-2007, 05:13 AM
I think there needs to be a detox forum for us, too. Almost everything I read was predicated on detoxing from punitiveness and therefore *I* read it as validating and intensifying my need to be no or low coercion.


:yes :popcorn

Joanne
10-06-2007, 08:17 AM
I guess I was very broad in my statement of "non-coersive"...possibly I should have said "low-coersive", since anyway even if I wanted, I wouldn't be able to be a non-coersive parent. I feel like I'm too permissive rather then non-coersive or low-coersive.
That's why I'm struggling actually, since I cannot seem to find a balance... Anyway, I would be interested in getting your book...

I've written about this topic.


http://morejo.blog-city.com/realizations_of_attachment_parent.htm

http://morejo.blog-city.com/permissiveness.htm

http://morejo.blog-city.com/being_a_hard__mom.htm

janethepain
10-06-2007, 09:10 AM
I just ordered Biblical Parenting and Grace Based Parenting. I think that I need to learn more about positions here on this site. In short, I found this site from MDC and this is where I learned about NCP in the first place. Parenting can be so confusing. I just want to be able to be a good role model and good disciplinarian to my child. It's hard for me to find a balance between being understanding/loving and being strong in my positions and not giving in.
Any other books/resources you would recommend?

I read Continuum Concept a while ago, and although it was an eye opener for me, my family is so small, my son has no grandmothers and only one grandfather. We really have no family who helps out with my 28mo son. None. It's hard for me to implement Jean Liedloff's ideas and some technicalities I don't really agree with...

janethepain
10-06-2007, 09:15 AM
I guess I was very broad in my statement of "non-coersive"...possibly I should have said "low-coersive", since anyway even if I wanted, I wouldn't be able to be a non-coersive parent. I feel like I'm too permissive rather then non-coersive or low-coersive.
That's why I'm struggling actually, since I cannot seem to find a balance... Anyway, I would be interested in getting your book...

I've written about this topic.


http://morejo.blog-city.com/realizations_of_attachment_parent.htm

http://morejo.blog-city.com/permissiveness.htm

http://morejo.blog-city.com/being_a_hard__mom.htm


I had been browsing thru your GOYB website. Very interesting!

janethepain
10-06-2007, 09:19 AM
I'm a softie by nature, too, Jane. It was really hard for me to realize that I needed to be more determined about certain things than my two year old, when by nature he was always more passionate about everything, while by nature I'm more of a "ok, whatever, if you feel that strongly about it" kind of person. So it took me awhile to find my feet as an authority figure and to realize that I had the right as well as the duty to set the boundaries and enforce them graciously but firmly.

There's definitely a learning curve for the softies among us. :hug2



Thank you for your understanding. I would love to hear from moms like me about their journey and how they taught themselves to be tougher.