some thoughts about punitive thinking

[ArmsOfLove]

One of the main lines is that children are foolish and therefore need to be punished.

1) Ps 14:1 gives us a working definition of a fool: [[To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.Has the child rejected God???

2) Matt 5:22 warns us But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. So by declaring your child a fool YOU are in danger of hell fire :think

3) If you see your child do something that violates Torah and God's ways then you have discerned a problem and wise discipline and teaching will correct their (mis)understanding. But if you see your child do something that violates Torah and God's ways and you decide that they deserve punishment you have judged them. To judge them is a sin. So you have sinned if you determine that your child needs punishment. Especially in light of the fact that God died for those sins--so you have decided they need to be punished for something God has extended forgiveness to them for :think

Just some thoughts I'm mulling over

[Aisling]

Good points, Crystal. Good thoughts to chew on. :yes

[RubySlippers]

I think of a fool as someone who rejects instruction, i.e. cannot be taught.
Children are like sponges; they soak up everything.

[Singingmom]

Good points! :yes

This must be the verse that comes up... Proverbs 22:15 (KJV)
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Could you address that verse specifically?

[Chris3jam]

(We need a chewing emoticon). . . . . . yes, please, can you address the other verses, as well?

[QuiltinGramma]

:popcorn
:heart

[mummy2boys]

:popcorn

[Wonder Woman]

(We need a chewing emoticon). . . . . . yes, please, can you address the other verses, as well?



Good points! :yes

This must be the verse that comes up... Proverbs 22:15 (KJV)
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Could you address that verse specifically?


:popcorn


She addressed that one on AOLFF:

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

This verse is the one used to argue that the verses spoken of fools are to be applied to children and that opens an entire can of worms where Scripture speaks of the rod for the back of the fool and others I'm sure you've heard. But that is not what this verse says. When I really dug into it I was surprised to realize that it reads the same in Hebrew as it does in English, but it wasn't until I read it in the Hebrew that I realized what it was really saying in the English. The heart is not bound (tied up) by foolishness as the punitive teachers would have you believe; the heart is not full of foolishness; but foolishness is what is bound (tied up).

Within the heart of a child, foolishness is tied up and when something is tied up it is rendered powerless. In the KJV the words in parenthesis are not present in the original language but have been offered to help the reader, but this means there is no “but” in the original. Rather, the rod of correction will drive that bound up foolishness from from your child. And not the rod “and” correction, but the rod “of” correction. We again encounter “muwcar” which is best read as “come let us reason together” and this is the shebet of reasoning together.

In other words, while your child is a child foolishness is tied up in their hearts and rendered powerless, so while they are a child you have time to exercise your authority and teach them so that folly is driven far from them. What encouragement!

http://aolff.com/?page_id=9&page=4

[Wonder Woman]

also a good point for people like my mother ;)

she believes that children - those under the age of accountability, and therefore anything they do doesn't count as sin - she believes that those children, by getting angry, sin against not God, but their *parents* :hunh

[MarynMunchkins]

also a good point for people like my mother ;)

she believes that children - those under the age of accountability, and therefore anything they do doesn't count as sin - she believes that those children, by getting angry, sin against not God, but their *parents* :hunh


This is theme of Tedd Tripp's book, I'm finding. It's not an uncommonly held belief in the South. :hunh

[Singingmom]

Thanks, Rebecca (and Crystal) :) I never thought of it that way!

[Wonder Woman]

This is theme of Tedd Tripp's book, I'm finding. It's not an uncommonly held belief in the South. :hunh


:yes2 (makes me glad to live near the Yankees ;) ) Seriously, the South as a whole seems to carry a much more punitive mindset throughout the culture than what I've run into up here, although of course there are punitive pockets of thinking here too.
Thanks, Rebecca (and Crystal) :) I never thought of it that way!




I was all :jawdrop ohyeah! when I read that :yes (and I knew where it was on her site because I just went through and updated everything on there, again :giggle The search feature there works better now! :phew )

[QuiltinGramma]

Let me first start with a disclaimer: I LOVE THE SOUTH!!! Okay?!?!?

Could it be that the South is more punitive because of the slavery that went on during the early years of the nation? First, they thought that the black person was an unintelligent animal, like a dog or even a monkey (I don't think they realized back then exactly how smart a dog or a monkey is). They didn't realize that the sounds a black person made was actually a real language. Watch the movie 'Amastad'. So when a black person ran away from the slave owner what happened? They were whipped and beaten. They were spanked...punished...could this be the reason why this practice has been grasped so tightly in the hand of the southerner? The black person was considered property back then. Today, our children are considered "property" of the parents and parents have the "right" to do whatever they deem best for their property even if that means whipping and beating the child. Am I grasping too far, or is this a possibility?
:heart

[Chris3jam]

Seriously? And, remember, I live in the South.. . . . . . . . . . I've been all around Europe, and lived in CO, NC, FL, and now in GA. And, I say that MY OPINION is that the South SEEMS to be a bit less preoccupied with education (maybe because of being so rural?), therefore, the "information", illumination, acceptance, seems to be a long time coming. And the more "backwoods" it gets, the more one hears, "Beat 'em". IOW, in the words of DH, my born and bred Norf Carolinian :giggle, the South is around 10-20 years behind the 'times', depending on where you are. . .he says this factually, with no rancor. Maybe because of the heat and humidity? :shifty :shifty

Now, remember, I grew up in an abusive household. . . . . .and it was Slavic (German and Polish), in CO. Go figure.

[Gentle Journey]

3) If you see your child do something that violates Torah and God's ways then you have discerned a problem and wise discipline and teaching will correct their (mis)understanding. But if you see your child do something that violates Torah and God's ways and you decide that they deserve punishment you have judged them. To judge them is a sin. So you have sinned if you determine that your child needs punishment. Especially in light of the fact that God died for those sins--so you have decided they need to be punished for something God has extended forgiveness to them for :think

Just some thoughts I'm mulling over




This one has me :think Very, very good point. Even DH didn't have a rebutal when I read it to him. :smile