"But Spanking Works"

[IChooseFaith]

can you please share some thoughts, responses for when presented with the arguement, "spanking works"

The only thing I can think of is "the end doesn't justify the means" - Just b/c the result is the desired one, doesn't mean it is the only way to get there

I feel that isn't enough

how do i counter this with thoughtful responses/sggestions?

fwiw-this isn't someone who would read Biblical Parentling or respond to grace based thoughts - so i need more Gentle Thoughts
TY

[hink4687]

My issue with the cases that spanking works is it works because the children are afraid. Fear is not what I want to motivate my children. :no2 I think once the fear of the consequences are taken away (kids go off to college, etc) then they tend to go off the deep end because these children were not taught inner-discipline or why they need to do certain things. I think the problem is spanking is a short-term fix and they are not looking at the long-term consequences.

[J3K]

"Spanking works."

"So does a bowling ball upside the head , but both cause pain and fear. Something I don't ever want to be the cause of in my children. I simply cannot picture Jesus discipling a child with fear and pain. "

[Ali]

I always think of one of the "Random Quotes From Wise Mamas" at the top of the message board. I think it's from elcollins, but it talks about spanking only working on a child's fear response. It's something about spanking being like junk food for children's hearts. Discipline like GBD works with the child's heart.

I often tell people that my goal is to instill values in my child that he will follow because he has a heart of respect and understanding, not fear of being spanked/punished. I believe GBD now will lead to a young adult who is responsible and compassionate and stays away from drugs, violence, etc, not because he's afraid of being caught, but because he cares about himself and others

[Spanish Rose]

Electroshock therapy will work too. Does that make it right?

I wouldn't quibble with them about the effectiveness of spanking, except to point out WHY it works. I prefer to state that GD works too. In my experience, it works better. And it's easier, and it doesn't hurt my conscience, etc. Really I'd focus on the fact that spanking it unnecessary. There's a stickie in the stickie folder about spanking. Check it out. ;)

If you could give me specific arguments this individual is using, I'll see what I can do to counter them.

[loveberry]

Things that convinced me...

What happens when it doesn't work? Hit harder? Use a belt? Whip them, bloody them?

Define "works". From what I can tell, people who hit their children to teach them something have to hit them just as much as I have to redirect/reason with/otherwise parent my child. If that's so, why not just skip the hitting?

If my husband or boyfriend or boss hit me, and I did what he wanted, would that be fined as "it works so it's ok"? If not, why not? Apply the same reasoning to children.

What is your goal when raising a child? Is your goal to get them to obey bigger, stronger people? Or is your goal to teach them to be good and wise and discerning?

What does hitting do for your relationship with your child? Does it build it up, layering the foundation for a lifelong relationship built on trust and caring and mutual respect? Or does it tear it down, creating fear and distrust? Leading into the teen years, kids will be well beyond physical control. I want my teen to remember the years of wisdom and honesty and respect he got from me and really hear me, not look at me as that woman who hit him when he was too small to defend himself.

I've heard stories of parents who spanked for running in the street or playing by the pool and later lost their kids to those dangers. They invariably wish they had hit less and hugged more.

[booboo]

Spanking doesn't minister to the heart. Spanking only says "if you do this...this will happen." A quick fix but not a solution. Do you allow your child to hit someone for taking their toy? Even after the child asked that person not to? Then why do you spank/hit them for taking something of yours even after you asked? Children imitate what they see and experience. Mommy hit me for that, so I can hit him for that.

:hug2

[Granola_mom]

Nici and Jess I especially kudo you gals...everyone has awesome things to say....
I was just going to post last night on the P&P, because I am really wrestling with the fact that my four closest friends ALL believe firmly in spanking......."but spanking works"......"and it's in the bible". Nothing I can say or do will EVER convice them otherwise. Point blank. One of them hasn't had her baby yet.....she's due in October.. I'm nervous because, her sister just gave her....Sherperding a childs heart for her baby shower... :sick....did I mention she really looks up to her sister......I on the other hand am her closest friend...she knows I don't spank, but nothing I say will help her see the folly in it. Believe me.....I try every oppurtunity the Lord presents. So much that I feel sick about it.

Ladies, this is tough......I've said ALL of the things you ladies have said and let my own life be an example..(I was spanked once as a child, and once only...never again, my mom told me she did not believe in it after that one time......for running out in the street) praise the LORD. I never stole, didn't lie, and could never be deceptive with my mom.....expect with sex, that I really didn't share my doing so.....
Now my pregnant friend has said she thanks her parents for spanking her..... :hunh :hunh :scratch. She was a wild child from what I know. As a matter of fact all my friends who were spanked and do it with their childern.....they all were really wild, mid teens to young adult.

Spanking does NOT teach a child to have a conscience.....a real wisdom drawn conscience. It teaches fear and domination. And when a person is steeped in it....even showing them the actual bible references are misconstrued....is like showing a blind man a million dollars.......... :shrug :shrug. I really have nothing else to share. I just relate and need to know what else to say as well.

[J3K]

For me it came down to the whole "WWJD" phase that came around. I began using that in my life. Sometimes cheesy and sometimes serious. My friends would tease me and say "WWJD" when I felt confused or lost. I was on the phone with a friend and my child was acting out. I admitted how frustrated I was with the situation and my friend chuckled and gave me that phrase. "WWJD" she said to me. I answered "Spank him and send him to his room for the night." And she chuckled back and said "then you know what to do."
I got off the phone and realized I could not picture Jesus spanking this crying child and punishing him.I could picture Jesus gaining loving control over the child with tender words and gentle hands. For the life of me , the longer I pictured Jesus hitting a child with the words 'it's for your own good' or 'this hurts me more than you' or 'you'll thank me later'....It just didn't gel.

So when strapped for something to say about spanking I usually resort to "I cannot picture Jesus lifting his hand to strike a child. Ever. "

[milkmommy]

It dosn't always...
When DD was just a bit over a year old we spent Christmas with my parents. They had up a large tree and lots of pretty shinny things. It was all too much for a one year old and as much as I pulled away said no tried to redirrect it was vey tempting. My parents seemed concerned that she wasn't "obeying" my No's. (though there not super punitive). It was also very early in my GBD journey and me thinking its better to get her to obey faster was better decided to take physical action and the next time she went for the tree I swatted her hand. It was a real slap not a little tap but neither was it super hard. I though it would startle her that I'd see a little tear and that she'd better follow my No.. :( Nope she laughed :shifty and even held out her hand so I could do it again :shifty..
I realized something.. My hand slappng or spanking might very well work but in order to do it I'd have to really hurt her. I was told over and over spanking work and that it often doesn't even hurt :scratch well I've found that to be untrue. In orser for it to work it must hurt. That HURT violiates just about everything I'm trying to teach her. That people are genually good that her mommy and daddy love her and are looking out for her that we will shelter her from harm and be her shoulder to cry on or her hand that comforts her when mistakes do happen. Spankings simpily don't fit into that.
Oh and FWIW I was spanked as a child not a lot and not where I'd say "abuse" I alos know that I NEVER thought gee I wont do that again, no it caused anger often a huge amount of guilt and anger because my behavior was often the result of acting before thinking and punishments especialy physical just rubbed salt in the wonds and made me think well gee if this is what you think of me ten why do I bother trying... The other side of me just thought of better wasys not to be caught. :shrug

Deanna

[Synesthesia]

Here's my problem with the concept of spanking working.
Does the punishment fit the crime? Is it really worth it to hit a child over breaking some sort of inanimate object that can be replaced when it was just a mistake?
Do you hit a child for crying? Why? That will make the cry more. They are upset and frustrated. Too many adults have no idea how to deal with their emotions, their anger, their sadness. Hurt.
Spanking will not help a child to learn that. It will only make them repress thier emotions. They will lie to avoid getting into trouble, hide their failing grades, internalize their problems because if there's one thing spanking can work for is breaking down the trust a parent and child SHOULD have.
Sure, it might be effective for dealing with small children in terms of making them too scared to do anything, but what happens when they are older? Children have to go out into the larger world and be surrounded by other people and all sorts of influences. When they go to high school or college their parents will not be there to whip them into shape literally each time they fall of the straight and narrow path.
It's up to parents to teach children by example, with compassion and patience for these little human beings who are learning, whose minds are developing.
I don't think spanking takes that sort of thing into consideration.
I don't think a lot of people can draw the line between discipline and abuse.
I also don't think they take into consideration normal child behaviour. Children don't THINK like adults do because their brains are really different.

And I really can't imagine Jesus taking an exhausted frustrated child and hitting him and sending him to bed alone. Jesus would probably take that child in his arms and comfort him, not hurt him. Children will have enough tossed at them with the world hurling stones, trying to break them down.
They don't need their parents breaking them down, hurting them and destroying their will.


Also, I really want that concept of breaking a person down to go away. It's not the military, you know! You're not training children to go off to war and blow things up!

[IChooseFaith]

these responses are all so wonderful & helpful
thank you
:heart

[3PeasInAPod]

even the aap states spanking is the "least" effective way to discipline.....

[Granola_mom]

Spanking will not help a child to learn that. It will only make them repress thier emotions. They will lie to avoid getting into trouble, hide their failing grades, internalize their problems because if there's one thing spanking can work for is breaking down the trust a parent and child SHOULD have.


:rockon, :gcm,and :amen

If only this lived in the minds of my friends.......
They'll see sadly when their children get sneakier......
One thing.....All my friends that spank have children that lie...... :think.....

[HuggaBuggaMommy]

One thing.....All my friends that spank have children that lie...... :think.....


Me, too. :yes2

People are absolutely amazed at how open and honest my ds is with me. In fact, just yesterday, a friend of his told him something and then asked him not to tell anyone. Ds said, "Well, I won't tell anyone except my mom. I don't keep any secrets from her."

I had a very punitive friend (i.e. Tripp to the extreme, spanking her 4-year-old up to 30 times a day for *disobedience*) say to me, "My kids don't talk to me. I wish they'd be open with me like your ds is with you."

[klpmommy]

Agreeing with everyone here.

I spanked P's hand when he was a pre-toddler. :bheart It didn't work. I thought my only recourse was to spank his hand harder. :cry That didn't work either. What worked was thinking "outside the box" (or maybe thinking "beyond the 'rod'").

GD works. It works great in my family. And like others have said, my kids don't hide misbehavior from me. They are still in the "words are magic" stage, but when they do something wrong- break something, spill something, misbehave when I am not right there- they tell me. They aren't afraid of me. They are also pretty well behaved kids & I often get compliments on them. What I find humerous in a not funny way is that the parent I talk about in a later paragraph is one of the ones who is always complimenting me on my kids' behavior, but even when I try to talk to her about GD/not spanking/playful parenting, etc, it just doesn't sink in to her brain. :(

GD also let me be able to figure out that P was having a behavioral reaction to food dye. B/c instead of just looking at the behavior I was looking for the cause. Had I been quick to spank it would have been so much harder to detect b/c I would have been spanking him for out of control behavior & aggressiveness (both of which I think most spanking parents would have spanked for) rather than wracking my brain trying to figure out *why* he was out of control & aggressive.

Spanking only works when the kids know that the parent is right there to spank. I have said it before on this board- the parent I know who has the *least* control of her 3 y/o is the one who is the quickest to spank. She has absolutely no control over him when she is in a postion where she isn't going to spank (in public, we live in the North so spanking is more frowned on here than in the south). He will just laugh & run away from her b/c he knows that she won't do anything about it at that moment & we all know toddlers live "in the moment". I can be consistent 100% of the time with how I discipline & follow through immediately in public, at another person's house, etc.

Anyway, it is late & I am rambling. Sorry about that. :O

[Synesthesia]

GD to me seems to be the way people SHOULD approach kids. I hate to sound all... like Ezzo and their ilk about saying what works and why folks should only do what I want them to, but it makes my ache to read about people hitting children 30 times a day for typical childlike things that could have a cause like being tired, being hungry. just being worn out.
My mother would hit me when I lived with her. I think she thinks our relationship is better than it is. I can talk to her on the phone and sound cheerful and all, but when it comes to talking about a problem I have, I usually will keep it to myself to avoid getting yelled at or lectured.
I still haven't told her about my plans to adopt, only hinted at them.
It's hard for a child to be open with their parents when they know they'll get pain inflicted on them. There just has to be a better way to deal with kids than to hit them over not staying in bed, or not wanting to get in their carseat.
How does hitting make any of this stuff appealing?

[mamaKristin]

Growing up, I was spanked very, very rarely. What "worked" about it, was that I worked that much harder NOT to get caught doing the same thing again. Is that spanking "working"? I wouldn't think so.

The only way that I can see spanking actually working is that it's not about spanking at all, but about firm boundaries. There are good parents who spank and good parents who don't spank. I would guess if someone thinks that spanking is the only thing that is working is because spanking becomes the line which the child cannot cross, the final boundary in a sense. I just choose to try my best to be a good parent who doesn't spank, I would prefer to not inflict pain on my children to get a point across. There are other ways to enforce boundaries with children that don't involve me hitting them. ;)

[This Busy Mom]

I tell people it's not the spanking that's effective... it's the consistent consequence that is. You don't need to hit them... you just need to get up and respond to the behavior. Spanking's overkill and just makes them feel bad.

[OpalsMom]

DH was spanked. He remembers deciding that it would be worth it to do something he was going to get spanked for. He says it works great, if your idea of working includes permanently damaging his relationship with his parents, screwing up his emotions permanently, and teaching him to lie and deceive. But he behaved when they were looking unless the spanking was worth it to him...

[MarynMunchkins]

I usually respond, "Really? Spanking makes my child more violent and aggressive." :shifty

[ArmsOfLove]

My oldest has autism. If I had spanked him I would have been spanking him to death with absolutely no change in his behavior except to get worse because of increased anxiety. With my 5yo even if you just get more intense with your emotions or voice he escalates out of anxiety. It's scary to have mommy and daddy upset with you :( Children react differently to fear.

there is also a great sticky in the GBD sticky forum on spankings not being the issue :tu

[Joanne]

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=49848.0

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=1988.0

Spanking can work to extinguish behavior. In some circumstances and with some kids. :shrug

But my discipline choices are made because of an understanding I've developed about family relationships, child development and the process of maturity. Spanking is out of the picture because it's not a match for my family's dynamic. I believe in discipline rather than punishment.

[Granola_mom]

Spanking can work to extinguish behavior. In some circumstances and with some kids. :shrug

My question is, why do spankers not see the temporal effectiveness???? It would bejust like taking medicine for something only to create a myriad of other problems...or side effects. I don't believe there is ANY circumstance or ANY child that deserves (or should get) a spanking.........because It doesn't work......... the behavior gets repressed.


Spanking is out of the picture because it's not a match for my family's dynamic. I believe in discipline rather than punishment.

It's sounds like you are open to the possibility that it does actually work :shrug.... in other dynamics. To most spankers discipline is punishment and visa versa....... Maybe I'm looking too much into it.....
I just don't see that it can work anywhere, with anyone.....and I truly believe that the parents and children will pay greatly..... in time.
However, I do see where you're coming from that spanking isn't the whole issue.....but it is a HUGE one......and that in itself is an issue.

[Joanne]

It's sounds like you are open to the possibility that it does actually work .... in other dynamics. To most spankers discipline is punishment and visa versa....... Maybe I'm looking too much into it.....
I just don't see that it can work anywhere, with anyone.....and I truly believe that the parents and children will pay greatly..... in time.

It *does* work. :shrug :shrug :shrug Arguing against it as a tool to extinguish behavior has never gotten me anywhere in a discussion.

I don't abandon spanking due to lack of effectiveness. I abandon it for other reasons.

[hink4687]

I just don't see that it can work anywhere, with anyone.....and I truly believe that the parents and children will pay greatly..... in time.


I think it depends on what you define as "works". For parents who define "works" as children obeying...I definitely have seen it :"work". But this is in children who are terrified of the consequences and are therefore obedient because of the fear. But like you said, this does not come without great ramifications. Sadly, some parents one see the short-term effect.

[Granola_mom]

I don't abandon spanking due to lack of effectiveness. I abandon it for other reasons.


I do see where you're coming from......But say I'm a spanker ...(very hypothetically) and God has given you an oppurtunity to speak to me about it.....do you negate the fact that in time the process leads to destructive behavior and sneaky attitudes. Because that would be a reason enough for me to stop..if I were a spanker
I think that all parents want the same goal....right? But to say "yes, it is effective" wouldn't be fully true because you know it isn't in time.
Like if you cared for a wound with something painful, like rubbing alcohol.....I imagine a firm alcohol using mom, "this is what your cut needs...yada yada yda.... She puts the child through hell to "fix the problem" and cause undue pain and trauma....in the name of making it better.....sometimes even...in the name of Jesus.....
......... when all it really needed was antibiotic cream and a lovingly put on bandaid.....

[loveberry]

I've never actually seen spanking "work" even as short term behavior modification. In my house growing up, we hid the flyswatters we got hit with, we ran away from my parents, we lied, and we did our best not to get caught. My friends who were hit were the same way. We all did our best not to be seen doing X but we never had any intention of not doing X anymore just because we'd get hit for it. Heck, we got hit for everything, why not do what we wanted?

I'm sure there are parent/child/environment combos where it "works" as short term behavior midification on the surface, but I don't believe it ever "works" on the heart, nor does it ever contribute to a healthy long term parent/child relationship.

[Joanne]

But say I'm a spanker ...(very hypothetically) and God has given you an oppurtunity to speak to me about it.....do you negate the fact that in time the process leads to destructive behavior and sneaky attitudes. Because that would be a reason enough for me to stop..if I were a spanker

Because I don't believe "spanking" = destructive and sneaky behavior. I believe it can. But I don't believe you can evaluate "spanking" in generalities anyway. I know some incredible families who "spank". I know some awful ones who don't. "Spanking" is too imprecise of a term to make general statements about.

[Granola_mom]

"Spanking" is too imprecise of a term to make general statements about.


I don't know.... all of my friends are "wonderful" families that spank... and I think that's messed up!!! You can see it their childrens' eyes. They are either sneaky and deceptive or fear dominated...... I believe a generalization is available for this punishment method. Maybe they each do it differently... one out of anger, and the others.....in the name of the Lord..... Spanking is a single ..(repeated) act that in my mind has no room for respect......that's all.... :soapbox

[IChooseFaith]

sorry - i didn't see a sticky on it at the top of this forum - didn't think to look anywhere else

I really appreciate the responses -

there are so many nuggets!