does anyone let their baby cry it out?

[made4more]

I thought there was a NO cio forum, but I can't find it, so here I am. I guess someone might have to move this. sorry for hte extra work I'm causing you :blush

does anyone ever let their babies cry it out? my dd is 8 mos old, and hasn't had to cio, but lately she's been doing the tired cry. I think it's purely that she's tired, and crying is what she does to get it out and fall asleep. I don't think it hurts them, but that's just theory, I haven't read any books or anything. I'd like to hear why to and why not to let baby cio. she seems okay, and sometimes she's in her swing (oh, this is where this always happens, she likes her swing, it's just that she'sVERY tired, and cries it out) and I'm in the middle of dinner, and my 2 yr. old is climbing into the toilet, and my 3 and 5 yr old are fighting and I dont have time to get baby. and like right now, I just know she's tired, so I'm letting her cry, but i wonder what it could be hurting in her psyche or whatever.

[allisonintx]

Crying alters the way a body processes blood sugars and can lead to hypoglycemia and behavior issues, and eventually diabetes. It is hard to meet everyone's needs, but a crying baby, unless they are crying 'in arms' needs to be attended, for their health!

[hiddenhippie6]

"The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

The early stress resulting from separation causes changes in infant brains that makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons and Miller."


http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html

Another excellent one
http://www.earlychildhoodaustralia.org.au/Controled%20Crying.pdf

[Marsha]

Ahem. I was recently reminded that ANY mild recommendation of modified crying it out was against the Statement of Beliefs and the rules of the board.

[Elora]

amytug, if my ds is overtired he does the tired cry thing even if I'm holding him.


Crying alters the way a body processes blood sugars and can lead to hypoglycemia and behavior issues, and eventually diabetes. It is hard to meet everyone's needs, but a crying baby, unless they are crying 'in arms' needs to be attended, for their health!
Even if I'm holding him while he does it? :shifty Does it matter if it's not repeatedly cuz he doesn't do it that often? I would love some articles on this for my husband to read if anyone has any on hand. Does this happen in adults too?

*editing to clarify* I've read a lot of other research on why CIO was dangerous, but I haven't read specifically the affect on the the blood sugar.

[hink4687]

I think (hope) you'll be hard-pressed to find moms on here who support CIO. There is lots of research to show that its not healthy for them like Allison said and it raises the cortisol levels in their brain.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_mckay.html
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp
http://www.ezzo.info/Aney/tulsakidspart1.pdf

I understand its got to be hard when you have 3 other young children to care for too. :hug2 Could you try putting her in a sling when you need to get other things done?

[Aisling]

I'm just now letting my 1yo fuss a bit while I"m in the same room with her and she can easily toddle over to me...and then only for a moment or two when I really need to finish something. (IE, she's too dexterous and good at lunging now to sling while I'm handling a hot pan of something :P~)

I don't think CIO is a great idea for all the reasons mentioned.

Sounds like your little one may be overtired, thus the extreme crankiness right before falling asleep. Have you noticed other "tired" cues that might be picked up on before he gets to that point (rubbing eyes, clinginess, drooping eyelids), so you might try rocking/slinging/bouncing him to sleep before then?

When life gets CRAZY and I find my little one crying a lot and the older one is bouncing off the walls and I feel like I HAVE to ignore her to get anything done...I try to take a few minutes of "everyone time-out". Usually my expectations for the day are too high at this point, and I have to just let something go. (Sometimes it's even something I wanted to do really, really badly, like blowdrying my hair or finishing a project. :doh) At that point, all three of us snag a pile of books and head for the bed for a nice snuggle session. Sometimes it helps.

If that doesn't work, baby gets passed to Daddy when he gets home, and then I attend to other matters. (I don't believe that crying in arms is the same as not being responded to at all. :no And, FWIW, I really don't think that having a babe in the same room where they can see you and be verbally reassured for short periods of time, esp. older babes like yours, is the same thing as plopping them in a crib and shutting the door for an hour. :shifty)

The time is just so. fleeting. My HN "baby" is almost turning 3 soon, and now that I see how fiercely independent and confident she is, I think the days of undone laundry and messy hair are totally and completely worth it. :shifty

[HomeWithMyBabies]

You won't see any suggestion that is pro CIO here, or any listing of the benefits thereof, as it was mentioned it goes against the Statement of Beliefs.

That being said I don't think a crying baby that is in arms meets the criteria for CIO, or an older baby being verbally/visually reassured while his mother finishes a pressing task.

eta: I love that I can just type S O B and it comes out SOB :giggle

[Elora]

I don't believe that crying in arms is the same as not being responded to at all. And, FWIW, I really don't think that having a babe in the same room where they can see you and be verbally reassured for short periods of time, esp. older babes like yours, is the same thing as plopping them in a crib and shutting the door for an hour.

That being said I don't think a crying baby that is in arms meets the criteria for CIO, or an older baby being verbally/visually reassured while his mother finishes a pressing task.

Thanks ladies for your opinions here :)

[made4more]

I didn't know that the type of cio I was talking about was against the sob. like gently reassuring her while she's in her swing, instead of immediately picking her up. oopsie!

thanks mamas.

[allisonintx]

I think that if she's just doing the whining kind of cry while you are struggling to get dinner on the table, and you're talking to her and reassuring her and she can see you the whole time, that is not the same as her sitting there wailing, red faced with big tears running down her cheeks. Your OP didn't really qualify the cry except to say it was a 'tired cry' which means different things to different people.

[milkmommy]

My chile did/does not cry alone saytng that however.
1) we sometims for better or worse missed that window of getting her sown peacefully and she'd fuss even cry huge tears. Despite my best effort shes still cried
2) sometimes holding her made it worse sometimes I knew that putting her in comfortable place and giving her soothing words or even as she got older saying its okay and letting her know I'll be pack in a minute and letting her settle and get thos e big feeling out was "better" than trying to hold her and get her more worked up.
3) the diffrence between ingnoring and letting a baby CIO is far diffrent from enforcing a bedtime boundry from a stubborn toddler/child just wanting out.
4) as a baby I didn't always jst and run at first cry. I learned them and could tell a hungry from a fusy from a tired and for some I would wait a tiny bit to see if shes settled back down. Cries that esculate then and now get responses.

Deanna

[made4more]

no, she's definately crying!!! and I can reassure her, but it doesn't help. I just meant that she was "crying because she was tired." I wont do it anymore mamas! :no2

[Herbwifemama]

Ok, here's my 2 cents:

Crying it out is very serious. By regularly letting your child CIO, you are teaching them that their feelings aren't important to you, and that you aren't going to help them. Eventually they give up hope of any relief or help, and stop crying. (This is how those Ferber styles of CIO work- the psychological term is learned helplessness) CIO= despair.

However- when dd was small, after all her needs had been met, sometimes she would cry. I was always holding and rocking her- the force of her emotion would scare me sometimes, but I believe that sometimes you just need to have a cry. *I* need to cry sometimes, but I like to have a shoulder to cry on, which is what I was providing dd with- this is extremely emotionally draining. But well, that's what parents do. As she got older, it happened less and less often, and now it's just once in a blue moon.

When she was about your dd's age, she would sometimes get really fussy around sleep time, and I would be able to nurse and bounce her to sleep unless we were in the car. Then, we'd just try to get home ASAP so I could nurse and bounce, but sometimes she'd be alseep before we got home- eventually, she stopped crying before falling asleep in the car, and just fell asleep. And she also went through a phase where she would moan to sleep- it started as crying, but changed to an "ooo-ooo-ooo-ooh", and she'd do that in the car, or if we were bouncing her. She seemed to outgrow it, but sometimes she still does it.

And my child also happens to be one of those children who really *doesn't like* to be comforted if she's upset. If she's having a tantrum, and I try to hug her or touch her in any way, she gets madder and backs away from me. It's *really* hard for me, because if it were *me*, I'd want comforting. But I guess that's one of those lessons I have to learn as a mother- my child is not me. :(

And finally, I haven't personally experienced this, but I've seen this among my AP mama friends with more than one- sometimes balancing the needs of each of your children sucks. It's hard to do, and sometimes someone's gonna have to cry for a couple minutes. I don't think that's CIO, as long as you attend to everyone's needs as soon as you are able.

When dd was a newborn, I read the book by this author: http://www.mothering.com /articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html

And it really helped me relax about dd's crying. I felt a lot more relaxed when she was crying, and not like, "Why can't I make it stop???" (Though I do disagree with her about comfort nursing. But the stuff about crying and stress relief rings true to me, especially since I"m an easy crier myself, even at the ripe old age of 25 :O ) Anyway, I hope I haven't said anything against the SOB- be gentle with me if I have. But that's the conclusion I've come to wrt CIO.

[loveberry]

no, she's definately crying!!! and I can reassure her, but it doesn't help. I just meant that she was "crying because she was tired." I wont do it anymore mamas! :no2


:hug You are such a good mom. :)

[OpalsMom]

"cry it out" has a lot of possible meanings. If what you mean is "I have a tired baby who knows I am near and cries whether or not I'm holding her, and she goes to sleep faster when I put her down" I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I also wouldn't call it "crying it out". Some kids cry as part of going to sleep. The tired cry is different from the I'm-upset cry.

I used to let DD do that, and I'm not at all sorry, and I don't think it's against the statement of beliefs, either. If she started to get upset I was absolutely there for her, double-quick. But if she was going to cry longer if I held her, and she wasn't upset? Not very attached to hold a kid who wants some downtime, you know... (And I totally believe that the upset, crying-with-every-particle-of-your-being cry completely messes with your body, but the little tired cry is very different.)

I wouldn't call it crying it out because to most people that means leaving a baby who is genuinely upset, who will be soothed or at the very least not made to cry more and longer by being picked up.

[Marsha]

Since the thread title says "Cry it out" then it seems unclear if we are talking about being busy, can't get to kiddo quickly and she ends up falling asleep even though she was kind of crying and tired.
OR
Since I know she'll fall asleep anyway, I keep doing what I'm doing and sure enough she falls asleep.

I responded once to a thread that I didn't consider CIO either and I guess it was, so wanted to err on the side of caution.

[inesperada]

For reference, the SoB says:

5. Babies communicate through crying, and their cries deserve a quick, nurturing response.

I think there is a big difference between leaving a baby alone while it cries because it's tired and staying there doing your best to soothe your baby. There are some babies who find being held overstimulating, but that doesn't mean we should put them down and leave (not that I think that has been suggested). I think so long as we are actively *there* soothing and comforting in whatever way helps the babe the most, it is a "nurturing response."

[Maggie]

I think there is a big difference between leaving a baby alone while it cries because it's tired and staying there doing your best to soothe your baby. There are some babies who find being held overstimulating, but that doesn't mean we should put them down and leave (not that I think that has been suggested). I think so long as we are actively *there* soothing and comforting in whatever way helps the babe the most, it is a "nurturing response."


Italics mine.


ITA, especially the bolded part!

[hink4687]

"cry it out" has a lot of possible meanings. If what you mean is "I have a tired baby who knows I am near and cries whether or not I'm holding her, and she goes to sleep faster when I put her down" I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I also wouldn't call it "crying it out". Some kids cry as part of going to sleep. The tired cry is different from the I'm-upset cry.

I used to let DD do that, and I'm not at all sorry, and I don't think it's against the statement of beliefs, either. If she started to get upset I was absolutely there for her, double-quick. But if she was going to cry longer if I held her, and she wasn't upset? Not very attached to hold a kid who wants some downtime, you know... (And I totally believe that the upset, crying-with-every-particle-of-your-being cry completely messes with your body, but the little tired cry is very different.)

I wouldn't call it crying it out because to most people that means leaving a baby who is genuinely upset, who will be soothed or at the very least not made to cry more and longer by being picked up.


the thing I think that is dangerous about this opinion is this is the exact same thing you will hear from an ezzo mom. They all claim that the baby's cry is their "tired" cry and they need to do so in order to go to sleep.

[milkmommy]

the thing I think that is dangerous about this opinion is this is the exact same thing you will hear from an ezzo mom. They all claim that the baby's cry is their "tired" cry and they need to do so in order to go to sleep.
Which is why I tread VERY carefully when discussing this on mainstream or ezzo boards. Here though I feel more comfortable that the mamas know the diffrence between the truly over tired baby that might need a minute to resettle (cries don't intensify they quickly calm diffrents signs go into the diffrence).
I do know that there were times when me going and picking up my baby after she WAS overtired made things 100x's worse.

Deanna

[CelticJourney]

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html

Here is a link to the Harvard study that discusses the physological effects of CIO. An important thing to remember is that part of the damage done by cio is done to the relationship - baby learns that parent's can't be trusted to meet their needs which heightens the panic effect of the discomfort they are experiencing. I had an online friend once whose son suffered from attachment disorder because of cio - and not hours of crying, just cio done the Ezzo way. It's an extreme example, but it speaks to the emotional/relational aspect of parenting choices. A baby crying in arms is not abandoned; a baby fussing in a swing with mommy talking to her and coming for her is not abandoned; a baby left on their own to handle emotions and physical matters of comfort they are ill prepared for suffers twice.

[stbmomof1plus2]

You may have to start getting her down to sleep much earlier for her naps. My ds would rarely show tired cues, but I would nurse him and rock him in the glidder - if he went to sleep that would mean he was sleepy. If after a half hour he wasn't sleep - then he wasn't tired yet. Once they get over tired it is really hard to stop the crying - even when holding. Just like when we get over tired. Have you ever been so tired you couldn't go to sleep? I have and it is actually painful! Little ones feel the same way.
Just try to push up her naptime.
Is she too big to babywear for you? That may be the next best option since you have other littles ones to care for - try to wear her and see if she can fall asleep that way.

[hink4687]

You may have to start getting her down to sleep much earlier for her naps. My ds would rarely show tired cues, but I would nurse him and rock him in the glidder - if he went to sleep that would mean he was sleepy. If after a half hour he wasn't sleep - then he wasn't tired yet. Once they get over tired it is really hard to stop the crying - even when holding. Just like when we get over tired. Have you ever been so tired you couldn't go to sleep? I have and it is actually painful! Little ones feel the same way.
Just try to push up her naptime.


I forgot about this but this was SO very true for us! :yes Try putting her down earlier...it may make a world of a difference.

[milkmommy]

You may have to start getting her down to sleep much earlier for her naps. My ds would rarely show tired cues, but I would nurse him and rock him in the glidder - if he went to sleep that would mean he was sleepy. If after a half hour he wasn't sleep - then he wasn't tired yet. Once they get over tired it is really hard to stop the crying - even when holding. Just like when we get over tired. Have you ever been so tired you couldn't go to sleep? I have and it is actually painful! Little ones feel the same way.
Just try to push up her naptime.


I forgot about this but this was SO very true for us! :yes Try putting her down earlier...it may make a world of a difference.

Same here..

Deanna

[Quiteria]

Haven't read all, in a hurry...


For my dd, she would cry like that b/c at that time of day she was tired AND hungry. Even though she was recently nursed...she wanted to cluster feed. We had to feed before and after dinner. If I held her, she would be willing to wait a little longer, but being put down, she was worried that she wouldn't get fed. I had OAL, so I knew that she really was eating both times. not that there's anything wrong with comfort nursing either to wind down, but just saying, she was gulping tons...it just took me a while to figure out since she'd nursed and eaten solids so very recently, but she still needed one more go to fill up for bed. Worth a shot...if not interested, she'll turn her head. ;)

[klpmommy]

definately try putting her to sleep earlier & a lot of babies do need to cluster nurse in the evenings to prep for a longer stretch at nighttime. And if you can babywear (maybe in a back carry?) that might solve some of the problems. But at the same time, if you have a 3 y/o climbing into the toilet that is a more immediate need than a crying baby, and it won't take but a moment to pull the 3 y/o out of the toilet, lock the bathroom & then get the baby, kwim? With more than one child you have to take a "triage" approach when there are several needs at once & figure out which need is most pressing & take care of that first.

I did cio with P. I did not with E but there were times when she cried & I was not immediately available. They really are two different things. P was left to cry even though I could have easily gotten him to comfort him b/c I thought he "needed to learn to fall asleep". :cry E would cry b/c she woke up in the middle of me changing a poopy diaper from P & I couldn't walk away from that mess to get her immediately. P would cry for 30 or more minutes in his crib alone. E would cry for 30 or more minutes in either my or Daddy's arms (ah, the wonderful world of colic).

If it had helped her to cry less if not in my arms, I would not have held her, but I would have been *there* comforting her with my presence, my words, patting her back, etc. That is also, IMO, not cio. CIO is definately a mindset that I can no longer approve of. I am very glad that I had wise & wonderful mommas who were able to convince me that cio was a bad thing to do. CIO breaks a trust. It can be repaired (I think I have repaired my relationship with P) but it takes a lot of work to do it. I honestly see no time that cio is the right thing to do. None at all.

[OpalsMom]

the thing I think that is dangerous about this opinion is this is the exact same thing you will hear from an ezzo mom. They all claim that the baby's cry is their "tired" cry and they need to do so in order to go to sleep.


Well, that's a problem. But I think we do have to accept that the world contains babies -- maybe not a lot of babies, but a noticeable number -- who at some age and some state of tiredness will grizzle while they're going to sleep, and if you pick them up they will find that stimulating and they will wake up and they will cry a lot and you will try nursing and they will cry much, much more, and then bite you and then you will cry and put them down because you are desperate and feel like an AP failure, and while you are weeping they will cry less and less until they are peacefully asleep, and if you have one of those babies, the right thing to do -- the best possible thing for mother and baby -- is to put them quietly down, remain alert for signs that the crying is getting worse instead of better, and leave them be. It is not abandonment to leave somebody alone when they want to be alone.

I don't think that newborns are ever like this. But by about 9 months, my kid was like this. She could not be nursed to sleep. She could be rocked to sleep in the right circumstances, but even in a sling she whimpered while she fell asleep...

[CelticJourney]

whimpered while she fell asleep... Whimpering is not crying though. This is where it gets tricky to discuss this online, because I have no idea what the someone else's version of cio is. When I was a nanny, one of my boys would 'sing' himself to sleep - even on my shoulder - definitely not crying, but vocalizing for sure. I have known many an Ezzo mom who will say her child 'whimpers' to sleep, but in reality they are screaming their heads off - that's why the pp said it was dangerous to advise someone to cio - it's the lack of information on our part that makes it so.

[Irene]

whimpered while she fell asleep... Whimpering is not crying though. This is where it gets tricky to discuss this online, because I have no idea what the someone else's version of cio is. When I was a nanny, one of my boys would 'sing' himself to sleep - even on my shoulder - definitely not crying, but vocalizing for sure. I have known many an Ezzo mom who will say her child 'whimpers' to sleep, but in reality they are screaming their heads off - that's why the pp said it was dangerous to advise someone to cio - it's the lack of information on our part that makes it so.
I agree... when I had my first, Ezzo moms and everyone else would say, its okay if she fusses herself to sleep. Im like "fuss??? she screams". It was almost as if no one wanted to say "cry" or "scream" anymore since it was no longer PC. I just was at someones house the other day adn I heard her baby CRYING loudly and I was like "oh, you can go get him" and she was like "its okay if he fusses a bit. " he was NOT fussing :cry anyway, yeah, I agree its hard to talk about this because one persons fuss is anothers screaming :(

[Dana Joy]

nothing to add these ladies have said it all
but wanted to offer you :hug2

[illinoismommy]

I couldn't believe my eyes seeing this thread here :jawdrop ... it is against the statement of beliefs

that would be a no.... lucky for me Maya takes a pacifier and doesn't cry

David we did "controlled crying" (5 minutes.... visit.... 5 minutes... that stuff :/ ) but I have been reformed.

[Garnet]

my baby is 10 months. I don't let him CIO but I do let him cry. Not for extended periods of time ( longer than 3 minutes.) If he is clean, fed, has recently nursed, isn't cold or hot, tired, or bored (that I can tell) I will let him cry if he seems bent on doing it. I try to comfort him, but sometimes it seems like he just needs to cry. :shrug Usually he cries for a minute or two and stops. He finds somethign to do, or my comforting kicks in.

[illinoismommy]

The only (?) time Maya cries is when I have to help David with the potty and can't get to her and it really rises my blood pressure.... he's so bent on doing it himself which is great except he's sooooooo slow and its hard to be patient when I need to get to her.... (we really need a smilie where a mommy is pulling her hair out!)

[CapeTownMommy]

I started out as an Ezzo mom, I only really let LO cio once (i.e. there was only one time when I didn't respond to her cries even though she was clearly really upset) but I still regret it. Other times I would go to her, pat her back, sometimes pick her up for another cuddle and put her back down, that kind of thing. I still think I did her wrong, in the sense that I should just have let all that nonsense about baby having to fall asleep on her own go, and hold her the way she wanted until she was asleep, but at least that's all in the past now.

Since becoming more AP, I've always responded to her cries asap. She sleeps in her own crib in her own room, co-sleeping doesn't work for us, but we have an excellent monitor and so I can always hear her making noises when she wakes at night. For the last 7 or so months, I always got up immediately if she gave a little whimpering cry at night. But two weeks or so ago, it was the second whimpering of the night (note: I'm not talking about a full-throated cry at all, it's the kind of noise she could make while still asleep but probably not, more of a moan than a cry) and so my husband would typically go to her. He waited maybe a minute, listening and waiting for the real cry to start, and she went back to sleep on her own. So now we've discovered that sometimes we actually do make things worse if we go to her too soon - she can go through that noisy whimpering phase and get back to sleep. It takes maybe a minute or two in total from first noise to back to sleep. I do not consider this cry it out, especially since she's not crying. Also, luckily, she's now active enough that if she really wakes up, she immediately sits up or pulls to standing inside the crib and I can hear that, so I know she's awake.

[IslandHome]

We always do our best to get DS to sleep without him crying... so soft music, a bottle, lots of cuddles....
It works some of the time.

There are other nights though when he gets overtired and just screams and screams. It doesn't matter at that point what we are doing with him - whether he's put down or held. He just screams anyway. The last couple of weeks when he gets like that we put him in his cot ... and either leave him, or sit in the room with him. I don't like it at all... it's horrible to have him crying like that (actually cryings far too soft a word for what he does!) but at that point he needs to get to sleep, and putting him to bed so he doesn't get overstimulated seems to be all that works.

Now I am not at all advocating CIO ... but babies are all different, and have different temperments. We've found our son just takes a long time to wind down, and seems to get more upset when we try to comfort him in those times.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that being AP is about responding to a babies needs... and sometimes those needs might be different then what we would think they are.



Well, that's a problem. But I think we do have to accept that the world contains babies -- maybe not a lot of babies, but a noticeable number -- who at some age and some state of tiredness will grizzle while they're going to sleep, and if you pick them up they will find that stimulating and they will wake up and they will cry a lot and you will try nursing and they will cry much, much more, and then bite you and then you will cry and put them down because you are desperate and feel like an AP failure, and while you are weeping they will cry less and less until they are peacefully asleep, and if you have one of those babies, the right thing to do -- the best possible thing for mother and baby -- is to put them quietly down, remain alert for signs that the crying is getting worse instead of better, and leave them be. It is not abandonment to leave somebody alone when they want to be alone.


:yes

[klpmommy]

Island Home- instead of leaving him to scream alone to sleep I would try to get him to sleep earlier. He sounds way overtired & an earlier bedtime- even 15-30 min- could solve that whole problem w/o any cio.

[SouthPaw]

ITA, my DD1 did the same thing until i started putting her to bed at 5:30 :jawdrop not good for my social life, but no more all night screaming fits.

[klpmommy]

For a *long* time P needed to go to bed b/w 5:45 & 6:00. It was crazy, but it was so worth it for him. Plus I had some nice quiet time at night to GCM, scrapbook, watch a movie, etc.

[bananacake]

When does it cross the line from just crying to CIO? I sometimes have to put him down for a few minutes so I can eat or go to the bathroom. He generally screams starting at 3 or 4 PM and sometimes doesn't stop till morning. Last night, I got 2 hours of sleep. I try to hold him as much as possible, but I have a neck injury, hip problems and back problems. And I can't baby-wear because he doesn't like slings.

[Marsha]

When does it cross the line from just crying to CIO? I sometimes have to put him down for a few minutes so I can eat or go to the bathroom. He generally screams starting at 3 or 4 PM and sometimes doesn't stop till morning. Last night, I got 2 hours of sleep. I try to hold him as much as possible, but I have a neck injury, hip problems and back problems. And I can't baby-wear because he doesn't like slings.


Does he have reflux? Or have you tried cutting out dairy and/or other allergens? That amount of crying seems extreme.

[Dana Joy]

i think cry it out is an intentional leaving a baby to cry to "train" them to go to sleep- babies cry it happens sometimes when we cannot respond, for whatever reason. the studies that show the elevated cortisol levels etc don't happen with in arms crying- there is something about being held that hekps- so even if they are crying non-stop it is better to do it in arms then not.

[inesperada]

so even if they are crying non-stop it is better to do it in arms then not.

:nak :yes :yes :yes

[bananacake]

When does it cross the line from just crying to CIO? I sometimes have to put him down for a few minutes so I can eat or go to the bathroom. He generally screams starting at 3 or 4 PM and sometimes doesn't stop till morning. Last night, I got 2 hours of sleep. I try to hold him as much as possible, but I have a neck injury, hip problems and back problems. And I can't baby-wear because he doesn't like slings.


Does he have reflux? Or have you tried cutting out dairy and/or other allergens? That amount of crying seems extreme.


I cut out dairy a week ago, though I realized yesterday that something I bought and ate twice has casein in it. :doh He doesn't have reflux as far as I can tell. He actually doesn't spit up at all, and he is BF. He does hiccup a lot, and sometimes he gags really strongly.

[inesperada]

:nak Dairy typically takes 3-4 weeks to get completely out of your system. If he's gagging you might also be dealing with OAL. :hug2

[Rabbit]

That's still not a normal amount of crying. I would pursue this further with a doc, because reflux doesn't always mean spitting up. Hiccups and gagging can be indicators of reflux all by themselves. He's crying for a reason, and that's way too much crying.

[bananacake]

:nak Dairy typically takes 3-4 weeks to get completely out of your system. If he's gagging you might also be dealing with OAL. :hug2


He chokes at least once a day - I guess because my milk comes out too fast. When he gags, it's not while he's feeding.

[Rabbit]

I am very hesitant to tell somebody they have OAL when it might not be the case, as the tips for managing OAL can decimate supply for a mom who doesn't have it..

Gagging when not feeding, and having hiccups are signs of reflux. Dairy sensitivities are common in kids with reflux. Crying for extended periods is a sign of reflux. It could be other stuff, too. Best to see a doc for a physical, an evaluation of the reflux symptoms, and proceed from there.

[Marsha]

My dd2 had silent reflux. She never spit up, but lots of gagging, hiccuping, arching, etc. Zantac made her a whole new child
I'd pursue the dairy very completely too. I had to give up all dairy, and found out that almonds also aggravated her and make her break out.
But that' s really too much crying. There has to be a reason.

[CelticJourney]

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that being AP is about responding to a babies needs... and sometimes those needs might be different then what we would think they are.I think what some of the moms here are saying, and I completely agree, is that most of the time what the baby NEEDS and what is causing the crying is not CIO. The child that 'needs' to cry (not talk/fuss/sing) to settle in is such a rarity that he/she can't be a basis for advocating cio.

Many times during my days with babies I have had one of the children cry or behave in a manner that I could have easily labeled as 'over tired'. Of course sometimes the answer came the next day when I they threw up or had a fever or ......but not always. Babies have so much happening to their little bodies that we just can't know: dehydration causes painful headaches, teething stinks, reflux is torment, growing pains. Adding parents leaving you in such pain is adding to the discomfort, not alleviating it.

[AmyDoll]

Babies cry :yes There's no way around that! But rare are the moments that baby should have to cry alone. I've left wee ones to take care of the potty needs of myself or another child and I'll be the first to admit I've tag teamed my dh to tend to the needs of a seemingly inconsolable babe. Nicholas was a refluxy screamer & we went tried all the stuff with him - some days & nights it worked, others it didn't. :shrug

There are sooo many things to try for a fussy baby - Rescue Remedy on the soles of their feet, Mylicon, Swaddling, a Sling, Bicycling their legs, a drive, a stroller ride. In fact I have 2 books both different, both with titles similar to: 101 things to do to Soothe a Crying Baby.

Please mommas, don't let your babies cry unattended. :cry They are sooo little and new. If you're overwhelmed and at your wits end, let us help you!

[klpmommy]

And I can't baby-wear because he doesn't like slings.


Have you tried other types of carriers? A moby, a mei tei, etc?

[cybelle1980]

And I can't baby-wear because he doesn't like slings.


Have you tried other types of carriers? A moby, a mei tei, etc?


Or at least different positions? If he has reflux symptoms, he may not want to be cradled but may need to be upright instead. (Other carriers are a great idea too, especially if they make it easier to achieve a position he needs and likes.)

[beatlemommy]

I think most of the mamas on this board will be able to tell the difference b/n fussing and full out crying. I don't think an infant should ever be left to cry alone. I don't know how anybody would be able to stand it anyway, it would wear on my nerves. I will never forget my sister telling me to let my 2 month old CIO. It was my first and she had a child already and thought she was an authority. I believed she might be right, but couldn't bring myself to do it anyway. I thought I was probably messing him up. Outside of urgent needs typically I would let the older children, dinner, or whatever wait.

[Marsha]

I was coming to say, my reflux baby always liked the Snugli, or front cross carry in a wrap (5 yards of cotton gauze from Walmart). I didn't realize until later that itwas probably because of the reflux, but I prefer those carries to the cradle hold in a sling, too, so it worked out for me.

[CelticJourney]

I think most of the mamas on this board will be able to tell the difference b/n fussing and full out cryingI agree, but this is also a public board, so I think we want to be sure that the some things are very clear for our 'reading audience" :giggle

[Mama Bird]

I'm trying to think, and I think the only time my children have cried (I mean a frantic, I NEED you cry) is when we were in the car, and had to get to a safe place to stop. Other than that, I don't let them cry, especially not alone. I just don't think that babies have a need for "alone time." Time to simply lay down and not be held, yes. But a need to cry by themselves? No way. :no2

[Rabbit]

I think it's important to note that you can't always stop a baby from crying. The goal is NOT simply to always have a happy baby, and you are not somehow a bad mother if your baby is still spending a significant amount of their time crying.

The point is that crying babies need reassuring company, even though that company may not be able to do a thing more for them than to simply be there. It makes an enormous difference.

If you do find that your baby is crying to the point where you feel like you're gonna break, then chances are, something is wrong, and can be fixed. That's when it's time to get help. Find more arms to do the holding. Post for advice. See the doctor. Follow your instincts.

[Quiteria]

If you do find that your baby is crying to the point where you feel like you're gonna break, then chances are, something is wrong, and can be fixed. That's when it's time to get help. Find more arms to do the holding. Post for advice. See the doctor. Follow your instincts.


:yes2 My dd and ds both had the same reason as each other for being inconsolable in the evening. For dd, I was told to CIO, that it was normal, that it was colic, etc. Lasted three months. For ds, I investigated further, found an answer, and he got better. Improvement began within a week. I feel really, really bad for dd not getting the same attention and treatment. Sometimes you can't solve the problem on the spot, and all you can do is be there, sometimes you ask and even the doctor says oh well. But don't believe for a minute that there isn't some real reason for crying. It's worth getting more opinions, trying more things, even if you fail.


Regarding the OAL, there are other symptoms besides choking...usually watery green poops from getting too much foremilk, nursing frantically as if hungry (they are!) but then pulling off suddenly (unable to keep up, but sometimes mistaken for not being hungry) OR clamping down hard despite a latch that looked good initially OR trying to latch way at the end of the nipple...all strategies of the baby trying to get less milk at once. Eating more frequently because the foremilk digests faster. Shorter feedings because the volume is so much so fast. Crying while eating (mine would make these uh-uh-uh noises of protest while gulping). Breasts that spray when the baby pulls off. I do tend to bring up OAL too often, and am glad for Natalie's reminder that it is something to dx cautiously...but if your baby seems to fit the profile as a whole, then the strategies can be sooooo helpful. That's the problem that dd and ds shared above. For us, it was about 10pm-2am or so, but it could be longer for others. On the other hand, most moms have low supply in the afternoons and highest in the mornings--if the baby is having fewer pees and poops, the breasts aren't spraying, etc., it could be just the opposite problem. Baby could be fussing about not having enough milk letdown, rather than too much too fast. Or it could be something apart from letdown...reflux as others have mentioned, cleft palate making it hard to feed adequately, tongue-tie, allergies, etc. It could even be separate from feeding. Keep asking and keep describing until someone recognizes what's going on, hopefully a good pedi, but also places like here where there are moms from such a wide background of experiences. :hug2

[Elora]

I am very hesitant to tell somebody they have OAL when it might not be the case, as the tips for managing OAL can decimate supply for a mom who doesn't have it..

Gagging when not feeding, and having hiccups are signs of reflux. Dairy sensitivities are common in kids with reflux. Crying for extended periods is a sign of reflux. It could be other stuff, too. Best to see a doc for a physical, an evaluation of the reflux symptoms, and proceed from there.



I think it's important to note that you can't always stop a baby from crying. The goal is NOT simply to always have a happy baby, and you are not somehow a bad mother if your baby is still spending a significant amount of their time crying.

The point is that crying babies need reassuring company, even though that company may not be able to do a thing more for them than to simply be there. It makes an enormous difference.

If you do find that your baby is crying to the point where you feel like you're gonna break, then chances are, something is wrong, and can be fixed. That's when it's time to get help. Find more arms to do the holding. Post for advice. See the doctor. Follow your instincts.


Love these.

Natalie you're such a wise woman and good mama, I am so thankful you post here...I always seem to love what you have to say :heart

[bananacake]

Thanks to all for the advice. I have an appointment with the pediatrician tomoorow.

[OliveJuice]

Reflux is a common reason for crying like that! I had 2 babies with reflux and they cried like that!

It is a common misconception that AP'd babies don't cry. That is not true at all. I would feel guilty about showering or going to the bathroom and letting Levi cry (even though he was in the arms of dh and had been nursed and diapered.) But I was not letting him CIO. He was being soothed as best as we could and I needed five minutes to attend to myself.

My best friend who is the most hard core Aper I've ever met has crying kids, but never CIO. There is a big difference b/t CIO and a baby who is crying.

[hink4687]

I also wanted to add that I found the Happiest Baby on the Block so super helpful in getting a young baby to calm down.

It recommends the 5 S's which are as follows:

* Swaddling - Tight swaddling provides the continuous touching and support the fetus experienced while still in Mom's womb.

* Side/stomach position - You place your baby, while holding her, either on her left side to assist in digestion, or on her stomach to provide reassuring support. Once your baby is happily asleep, you can safely put her in her crib, on her back.

* Shushing Sounds - These sounds imitate the continual whooshing sound made by the blood flowing through arteries near the womb. This white noise can be in the form of a vacuum cleaner, a hair dryer, a fan and so on. The good news is that you can easily save the motors on your household appliances and get a white noise CD which can be played over and over again with no worries.

* Swinging - Newborns are used to the swinging motions that were present when they were still in Mom's womb. Every step mom took, every movement caused a swinging motion for your baby. After your baby is born, this calming motion, which was so comforting and familiar, is abrubtly taken away. Your baby misses the motion and has a difficult time getting used to it not being there. "It's disorienting and unnatural," says Karp. Rocking, car rides, and other swinging movements all can help.

* Sucking - "Sucking has its effects deep within the nervous system," notes Karp, "and triggers the calming reflex and releases natural chemicals within the brain." This "S" can be accomplished with bottle, breast, pacifier or even a finger.

[illinoismommy]

And I can't baby-wear because he doesn't like slings.


Have you tried other types of carriers? A moby, a mei tei, etc?


Or at least different positions? If he has reflux symptoms, he may not want to be cradled but may need to be upright instead. (Other carriers are a great idea too, especially if they make it easier to achieve a position he needs and likes.)


this is/was true for maya, she liked the snugli until 10 pounds (then it starts hurting the back) and now likes the mei tai :)

[klpmommy]

I also wanted to add that I found the Happiest Baby on the Block so super helpful in getting a young baby to calm down.

It recommends the 5 S's


HBOTB was a *sanity* saver for me with colicky E. It did not stop the crying, but it definately minimized it. And I believe she had colic (or as HBOTB says she needed the fourth trimester) b/c her crying jags ended really suddenly right around 3.5-4 m/o. She was (and is) still intense, high needs, etc, but nothing like the CRYING in those first few months.

[Marsha]

See, that's how I knew RI didn't have colic, because her crying STARTED around 4 months. Which is the age that colic and infant type reflux is stopping.
I still think the front cross carry or Snugli type carrier worked wonders for us. I used the Snugli until maybe 6 months?? Up to about 15 pounds or so. I guess, anyway I would recommend it with a refluxy babe. Plus I found more mobility, I could bend over without using my hands to hold her etc.

[twoboysinmay]

i think cry it out is an intentional leaving a baby to cry to "train" them to go to sleep- babies cry it happens sometimes when we cannot respond, for whatever reason. the studies that show the elevated cortisol levels etc don't happen with in arms crying- there is something about being held that hekps- so even if they are crying non-stop it is better to do it in arms then not.


I agree. DS#1 had severe reflux and would scream for two to three hours every night, always in my arms (usually I was in tears as well). He also could not sleep away from me at all--I had not planned on co-sleeping but ended up doing it, and liking it. He moved to his own bed at 23 months because he was ready, not because we were. To this day I still have to parent him to sleep--I lie in his bed with him and either nurse him or hold him.

DS#2 is the polar opposite of his brother. He goes to sleep best if I put him down awake. He holds his blankie and sucks his thumb. This isn't something I "taught" him, or even considered teaching him--he was born that way. If he gets overtired, he will cry, but only for about 30 seconds or so--I pick him up after that. And I always stay in the room with him. But it takes him longer to go to sleep, and he gets more upset, if I hold him and rock him. He does sleep in the room with us, in a co-sleeper and sometimes in our bed, and I don't plan to change that until he is ready for his own room.

I think CIO happens when we ignore our own God-given instincts that our babies need us, and leave them to cry to "teach" them that "crying isn't going to do any good" or that they "need to learn to fall asleep on their own".