Please walk me through these scenarios.

[Chris3jam]

Dh and I have been talking more. And I agree with him that our children have certain behaviours that are just wrong, unacceptable, in appropriate, etc. Here are a few examples. Please tell me how to stop this behaviour in the kids.

1. Dh and the kids are upstsairs saying their nighttime prayers. 9 yo ds passes gas (deliberately) and laughs. Dh says, "That is rude and disrespectful. Stop it now." 9 yo ds laughs at dh and does it again deliberately (he was really straining). What do we do?

2. Dh tells ds to do something. Ds starts to whine and argue. Dh (to his credit) stays calm. Tells him again. Tells ds to be quiet and listen. Ds mocks him. How to handle that? (besides telling him it is wrong, etc., etc.)

These are the types of things with which we are dealing. I agree with dh that our children are generally disrespectful and rude. They do not respect us and just will do *anything* to 'get their own way', including lying, sneaking, etc. Let me just say that dh is trying *very* hard to respect my wishes in our parenting choices, and hasn't raised a hand to them in a long time. Neither have I. So, they have nothing to fear; they don't need to be lying and stealing and cheating and such for fear of being "found out".

Dh says that the problem is exactly that. . . . . that they do not "fear" us, do not respect us, and this is the basis of the behaviour. I've tried drawing the parellels between work and such, but for every explanation I give, he has a response. For instance, when I bring up the fact that his boss doesn't spank him, he says, "Yes, but I'll lose my job." And then I say that we need the proper and logical consequences for the behaviours.. .. .. .. and then I get totally lost when he says, "OK, fine. What consequences?" And I don't know. These are behaviours that we *cannot* prevent.

He's also telling me that we've tried it "my" way (GBD), that it is not working (the kids are actually getting worse), and that things are going to have to change *now*. :( I have other examples, but the two above are representative of the disrespectful and rude behaviours they exhibit. And these are not preventable. :( But, what consequences?

[Susan K]

For the first behavior my dh would say It is now time for you to go to bed. I will fiinish praying with your brother down stairs.
For the second we tell ds you do not have to like doing your jobs you just need to do them. I will tell him that was rude you may say this. I would give an example. I would then escort him to his job while informing him that nothing else will be done untill he is finished.
Susan

[Joanne]

1. Dh and the kids are upstsairs saying their nighttime prayers. 9 yo ds passes gas (deliberately) and laughs. Dh says, "That is rude and disrespectful. Stop it now." 9 yo ds laughs at dh and does it again deliberately (he was really straining). What do we do?

I'd be wordy, only once: Dear son, prayer is a time of respect and reverence. You've been rude and are making this unpleasant for others. If you continue, I'll escort you to the bathroom for your potty behavior and the rest of us will finish our praise."

I'd not repeat the above. I'd promptly escort him each and every time.

2. Dh tells ds to do something. Ds starts to whine and argue. Dh (to his credit) stays calm. Tells him again. Tells ds to be quiet and listen. Ds mocks him. How to handle that? (besides telling him it is wrong, etc., etc.)

Too much talking. Too many chances. I'd teach (train.....I know some people don't like the term, but I'm co-opting it) them that when I give a command, it will be followed. We'd practice with silly commands, followed by "yes, ma'am/sir". In real life situations, I'd give once chance for a do-over. If the child fails to accept that opportunity, I'd move into making it happen. Possibly followed by a related, logical consequence.

Dh says that the problem is exactly that. . . . . that they do not "fear" us, do not respect us, and this is the basis of the behaviour. I've tried drawing the parellels between work and such, but for every explanation I give, he has a response. For instance, when I bring up the fact that his boss doesn't spank him, he says, "Yes, but I'll lose my job." And then I say that we need the proper and logical consequences for the behaviours.. .. .. .. and then I get totally lost when he says, "OK, fine. What consequences?" And I don't know. These are behaviours that we *cannot* prevent.

Stop trying to convince him not to spank or punish. Admit that you haven't been doing GBD; you've been "not spanking". The truth is that good parents do GBD. Some may *also* punish on occassion, but good parents have common ground on setting the stage for success, understanding age expected behavior, coaching, teaching and consistency.

He's also telling me that we've tried it "my" way (GBD), that it is not working (the kids are actually getting worse), and that things are going to have to change *now*. I have other examples, but the two above are representative of the disrespectful and rude behaviours they exhibit. And these are not preventable. But, what consequences?

Consequences are tied to the situation.

If they don't respect certain property, they don't get access.
If they don't follow outside rules, they don't go outside.
If they don't interact well with each other at home, you can't take them "out".
If they are disrespectful to a parent, they lose privileges that parents can give (not food, shelter, etc but outings, and special events)
If they don't transition well from screen time, they don't get screen time.
If they don't leave well, they don't go.
If they don't do their chores/hygiene, they don't play.

Has your DH ever read any of my stuff? It's very not permissive and men tend to "get it" for some reason when they read my writing.

[Dana Joy]

Consequences are tied to the situation.

If they don't respect certain property, they don't get access.
If they don't follow outside rules, they don't go outside.
If they don't interact well with each other at home, you can't take them "out".
If they are disrespectful to a parent, they lose privileges that parents can give (not food, shelter, etc but outings, and special events)
If they don't transition well from screen time, they don't get screen time.
If they don't leave well, they don't go.
If they don't do their chores/hygiene, they don't play.

for how long?

[Joanne]

for how long?

:hugheart This question so represents how entrenched we are in a puntive/formualic culture! :heart

The answer depends on the child, the event, the age and your family's tone.

[Dana Joy]

not to derail Chris' thread- but since i have issues of disrespect with my kiddos near the same age as her's specifically my just turned 10 yo dd- let me put out my scenerio
since i have asked before it has gotten better- i do not engage her in the back and forth dialogue i used to. so for instance yesterday when mr j was over and we were on the - computer doing some sttuff that was important - she came in without knocking- i told her that we are doing important stuff- she interupted by not knocking please walk out and do it over. she huffs and puffs and yells in my face "IT IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY BOOK" and storms out, slamming the door and knocking on it real hard. i firmly tell her that since she cannot treat me with respect she needs to go into her own room. she goes and 2 minutes later is yelling at the top pf her lungs- can i come out? i asked her if she was ready to be civil she wouldn't answer so i said no- i will come get you in 5 minutes- minutes later i came in- she was reading and told me "you know being in here is no big deal- i don't care" should i let her come out- should i have never sent her there to begin with..... arrgh consequences at this age feel punitive- it is a tough line to deliniate- and so i end up way on the permissive side.
:shrug

[Joanne]

i asked her if she was ready to be civil she wouldn't answer so i said no- i will come get you in 5 minutes- minutes later i came in- she was reading and told me "you know being in here is no big deal- i don't care" should i let her come out- should i have never sent her there to begin with..... arrgh consequences at this age feel punitive- it is a tough line to deliniate- and so i end up way on the permissive side.

I think you handled it well. The scene plays out in one way or another often in my home. :hunh

I think sometimes you confuse firm boundaries with punitive. She chose to remove herself from your interaction when she chose to be disrespectful.

[Chris3jam]

Ok, I think I see the problem. Dh interpretes the 'gassy' situation like this: ds is deliberately being disrespectful, because he doesn't want to do prayer time and go to bed. So, he does things to deliberately disrupt the process (I have no idea if this is fact or not. . . but it is how dh interpretes these things). So, the last thing dh is going to do is take him by the hand and escort him to the bathroom, since this is 'what he wants anyway'. So now they are engaged in a power struggle, one that dh will lose, since he cannot control ds's bodily functions. He is trying to demand obedience, and is looking for consequences to disobedience.

Even when he sees me remove a child from a situation, and that child stomps and slams doors and screams and yells, he says that child is showing outright rebellion and hate and it needs to be dealt with. IOW, that kind of behaviour should not be happening, and the reason it is, is because they do not have fear and respect, which is what spanking imparts. No other consequence (in his eyes) can "drive this lesson home and stop the behaviour". :(

This is why, no matter how much we talk, we cannot move past this bad behaviour = bad consequences (in his eyes, only a spanking is a bad enough consequence).

:(

[graceful mama]

I don't have kids this age, so maybe (probably) I am just totally ignorant. However, from my experience working with youth, I would say that farting on purpose at age 9 is really normal developmental behaviour. Every boy I have ever seen is obsessed with bodily noises from younger than that to a lot older than that. So how about just all completely ignoring it. I think it would lose it's fun if noone else laughed or commented on it.

I guess I'm a bit confused on the knocking before coming into the computer room too. That seems to me to be making the parent completely unavailable to the child. I would think that the child would have a lot more respect if she knew the parents had an open door policy and she could interrupt them at any time and that there would be a lot fewer interruptions. :shrug

It sounds like your dd is feeling like you aren't available or feeling like she is not important enough to you. :shrug Honestly, my first thought when I read that was "What in the world are they doing on the computer that is so important that a child can't walk in the room w/o first announcing themself with a knock?" That is what immed came to my mind. Now I would bet it was not anything that wasn't completely innocent, but a 10 yr old (or maybe a bit older depending on how "innocent" the kid is) may think other things. Also, if we are going to monitor our older children's computer/internet usage, then shouldn't we be open about letting them see what we are checking out online? I'm assuming you were online and maybe I"m wrong. I know we do our money on the computer and many other things. But what of that is so important that a kid has to knock? I could see teaching them to knock before entering the bedroom, but this just seems like an unnecessary formality that could easily be taken as such by a 10 year old. I guess I'm just big on the major on the majors.... I'm not saying you were wrong to tell her she has to knock, just don't quite understand it and so maybe she doesn't either.

[Joanne]

I guess I'm a bit confused on the knocking before coming into the computer room too. That seems to me to be making the parent completely unavailable to the child. I would think that the child would have a lot more respect if she knew the parents had an open door policy and she could interrupt them at any time and that there would be a lot fewer interruptions.

I have to very gently and respectfully disagree with this completely.

I never locked toddlers, preschoolers out. But at school age? Open door policy is a business term meant to imply you can talk to your superiors without repurcussions. It's not meant ot imply that the supervisor is continually always available.

I will NOT have a home in which my children feel free to walk through a closed door without knocking and waiting for a response. I do the same for them, btw. A closed door here means "privacy". Since I don't do closed doors with minor guests, I don't need to intervene during play behind closed doors.

I *also* don't think it's good or healthy for my kids to continue to have the same level of mama response (in terms of time) as they did when they were littles. My older kids are expected to wait should I decide what I am doing trumps their interuption.

[OpalsMom]

Ok, I think I see the problem. Dh interpretes the 'gassy' situation like this: ds is deliberately being disrespectful, because he doesn't want to do prayer time and go to bed. So, he does things to deliberately disrupt the process (I have no idea if this is fact or not. . . but it is how dh interpretes these things). So, the last thing dh is going to do is take him by the hand and escort him to the bathroom, since this is 'what he wants anyway'.


Well, if the goal is to keep him from disrupting, then DH should avoid being disrupted. If the noises interrupt the prayer, perhaps DH would like to start over, until everybody has a chance to get quietly through the whole prayer. Arguing about the noises merely increases the distraction value.

Note that spanking the kid is going to disrupt the prayer just as surely as anything else.

[Dana Joy]

fwiw- we were on the phone with the government trying to work out the kinks in a passport situation that must be resolved before we travel.
we told her this before we went in there.
knocking on a closed door is a basic courtesy that i am teaching to my children- under normal situations the computer room door would be left open.

[graceful mama]

Oh, thanks.. I guess we just do things differently in our house. I don't see knocking on a closed door as a "courtesy" as much as a "formality". My dh and I would never knock before entering the room where the other one of us was working on something, so I would never expect that of my kids. I *would* knock on the closed door of someone I didn't know well or in a formal place such as a business - but never at home, unless of course it was the parent's bedroom or someone was in the bathroom.

I guess where I'm coming from is having worked with teens a lot (and from 10 on they start to act more like "teens" than little kids a lot). So maybe she is being disrespectful because she does not understand the reason behind some of the things you see as courtesy and I'm guessing that she felt it very immature and disrespectful to her to have to go back out and knock. After all, would you ask that of your husband if he forgot? Or another adult? Maybe if she were treated with adult courtesy she would treat you with the same. Then again, maybe not as at that age they are a mini adult one day and a little kid the next. Or even from moment to moment... But it might be helpful to ask her how that made her feel and if she says it made her feel "stupid" or "like a little kid" then you could have a talk with her about you trying to treat her as more grown up if she will drop some of the bad attitudes. I have found a lot that when kids start to get a bit older they hate to be made to feel like a little kid and if a parent has that sort of talk it is very helpful.

Would she have been disrespectful if you had simply said, "Sweetie, I told you dad and I are trying to resolve this passport issue. Is this something that really can't wait?" If she starts off on something you think could wait, how about "That sounds really interesting. I tell you what. How about we spend some time talking about it as soon as I'm done here. I'll be in as soon as I'm done helping dad".

Again, I'm talking from exper working with jr high and high school age and don't have kids that age, so maybe there is a lot on the home front dynamic that I'm missing.

Praying you guys can work it all out!

[Joanne]

I guess where I'm coming from is having worked with teens a lot (and from 10 on they start to act more like "teens" than little kids a lot). So maybe she is being disrespectful because she does not understand the reason behind some of the things you see as courtesy and I'm guessing that she felt it very immature and disrespectful to her to have to go back out and knock. After all, would you ask that of your husband if he forgot? Or another adult? Maybe if she were treated with adult courtesy she would treat you with the same.

It's a poor comparison. I'm not my husband's mother. My role in his life is different than the role in my children's life. The ways in which we live in the house are different.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the closed door issue and what I see as the absolute need for a dynamic in which the adults are not assumed to be immediately, automatically available.

[graceful mama]

I can understand different people having different opinions on knocking b4 entering... And obviously, a child needs to respect their parents opinions even if they don't agree with them.

I must not have been clear enough because I don't actually think that older kids should have immediate and automatic access to parents w/o waiting. My 2 yr old has to wait sometimes. Just judging from the 10 yr old's comment it seemed that she felt unimportant. In our house we do things differently and an older kid could interrupt me at work. Doesn't mean I wont' tell them to wait tho... And if they still interrupted, then I'd hope it really was urgent. And if not I would politely and firmly ask them to wait again.

I don't expect my (or anyone's) relationship with a child, teen or even adult child to be the same as with a spouse. But I do think there comes a time when children ought to be given some adult type courtesys in how they are treated. "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you." That "grown up respect" time depends on the parent talking to the kid and the kid responding in kind with their own courtesy and respect towards the parents.

I can tell you for fact, one of the main gripes older children and teens have towards parents is that they don't feel respected. And no matter how hard parents try, if the kid doesn't feel respected, they won't give respect back. I don't know for a fact, but I can guess that the 10 yr old did not feel respected in how her mom handled the issue. Oftentimes it is a vicious cycle. The parent does not feel they can afford their child any grown up courtesies because the child is disrespectful. So they dont' give that sort of "respect" to their child. The child rebels and does not respect the parents and on it goes.

I personally (again from working with youth) think that if mom talked to her 10 yr old and there was some dialogue about how they are making each other feel, then they could try to do things a bit differently and if the child felt more respected, she would offer more respect in return. Sometimes at that age it's also helpful to ask "If you are not respectful of my wishes for privacy and knocking, how should I handle that?" Then the kid can say what they think would be a fair and respectful response if they slip up (which of course they will from time to time). Of course that response has to meet with parental approval. But then the kid knows not only what is going to happen as a logical consequence, but they themself chose that consequence and will have a much harder time being angry at the parent for it.

[loveberry]

Replying to the gross nosies question...

Alex is constantly making gross noise. It really comes off as total thoughtlessness and lack of impulse control, not deliberate rudeness. I'd kind of recheck your assumptions in this case, though it sounds like they he specifically enjoys disrupting prayr time.

Is it possible to make prayer time something really special for the boys and dad? Take time not just to pray, but maybe also read a story, share about days, and generally reconnect in a really nice fun way. If one of the kids is disrupting, they've invited themselves to sit out the fun for the night while everyone else gets to participate.

It just seems like you'd be setting them up for success by making it something they enjoy and look forward to instead of something they want to disrupt.

[loveberry]

Replying to the door question...

We don't typically close doors much but if I do, I tell Alex that I need privacy and I ABSOLUTELY expect it to be respected. I ask for privacy because I want privacy and if it's to deal with a client or simply sit alone or with a friend for a period of time, he can be respectful. He's not a baby anymore. Part of my respecting him as a person growing into an adult is that my expectations go up. He is welcome to request the same privacy and I respect it when he does.

I wouldn't ask him to back out and knock again, but depending on my reason for the privacy I might holler PRIVACY! In our home, a holler of "privacy" is an expectation that the person intruding needs to IMMEDIATELY back off behind a closed door and talk from there if necessary. This applies equally, adults and kids alike.

[mamaKristin]

Dh says that the problem is exactly that. . . . . that they do not "fear" us, do not respect us, and this is the basis of the behaviour. I've tried drawing the parellels between work and such, but for every explanation I give, he has a response. For instance, when I bring up the fact that his boss doesn't spank him, he says, "Yes, but I'll lose my job." And then I say that we need the proper and logical consequences for the behaviours.. .. .. .. and then I get totally lost when he says, "OK, fine. What consequences?" And I don't know. These are behaviours that we *cannot* prevent

bolding mine.

I think the lack of respect is a huge issue here. From all sides. You have posted often about your DH not respecting you, in many ways. Therefore, your children are not seeing their mother - the person who is with them the majority of the time - being respected...so why should they respect your words? Your DH seems to vary between being punitive and too controlling, and then not spanking...a real lack of consistency can make it hard to trust and respect. Also, if he's got unrealistic expectations of children, it makes it hard for children to respect that authority too - we can probably all remember a teacher in school who went about asserting their authority in a less than successful way. Generally that wasn't the most respected teacher.

It is more than not just "not spanking". It sounds like your children are pushing the boundaries with all their might to find where the boundaries are. And they aren't really finding them to be clearly defined. I know you struggle with health issues that makes it hard to make things happen, and that is a big challenge to parenting children who still need help to make things happen. :hug2 You can still be within the bounds of GBD and be firm and consistent. However, I would also imagine that your health concerns are not foreign to your children, and be a combination of stress and challenge for them (you know, between 'wow, mom's having a bad day' and 'i'll push to see how far I can go, she's having a bad day')

honestly, I think that modeling respect between you and your DH to each other, and as parents would really greatly help. And making sure that when your DH is able to step in and make things happen when you can't would also be good. Joanne's writings are often really, really good for men, she speaks directly and to the point - very helpful.

[Katherine]

1. Dh and the kids are upstsairs saying their nighttime prayers. 9 yo ds passes gas (deliberately) and laughs. Dh says, "That is rude and disrespectful. Stop it now." 9 yo ds laughs at dh and does it again deliberately (he was really straining). What do we do?

Dimiss him from prayer time for that night with as little to-do as possible. Honestly, I would probably tend more toward sending him out than toward interrupting prayer time in order to escort him. The next night let J have some free time downstairs so dh can take A. to bed first (about half an hour early) to do prayer time alone, so that he doesn't have as much of an audience. Tell him when you see that he can be respectful and refrain from disrupting, he'll be allowed to participate at the normal time again. If he continues disrespectful behavior, don't make a huge deal, but wrap up prayer immediately and say good night. Continue this until he is able to get through a session (or several) without disrupting, and then let him try at the normal time again.

2. Dh tells ds to do something. Ds starts to whine and argue. Dh (to his credit) stays calm. Tells him again. Tells ds to be quiet and listen. Ds mocks him. How to handle that? (besides telling him it is wrong, etc., etc.)

I like what Joanne said in response to this (consequence must be related... one do-over, then make it happen along with a logical consequence), but I also know (from experience) how incredibly hard it is to handle these situations "in the moment" or impose a respectful, related consequence to a situation that just pops up. It's hard to trust your parenting instincts when those instincts have been *trained* in a punitive vein and have led you into unhealthy parenting in the past.... and when you've struggled so hard to move away from that. It's like trying to navigate without landmarks. It has helped me to offer lots of specific examples and get some solid suggestions--not for purpose of formula-following--but to become more comfortable and familiar with how firm, non-punitive consequences look and feel in general.

Where the disrespect is concerned, I can see implementing "your family gets your best or no one gets the rest"--maybe in a rather systematic way at first to help you make it reality. :shrug

He's also telling me that we've tried it "my" way (GBD), that it is not working (the kids are actually getting worse), and that things are going to have to change *now*.

Well, you agree with him that things need to change. So tell him.. "I agree things need to change. We both know from experience (with S. and with J. and A.) that spanking is not a magic bullet, and that whatever we're doing now isn't working... so let's both come up with some other specific gameplans and bring them to the table for consideration. AND let's think of one (positively worded) principle we want to teach, and concentrate on that one thing for awhile." Designate a night where you're going to talk about it--maybe a week out. Avoid labeling things, if you think that polarizes the issue. For example, if you want to do things a certain way that fits with "GBD", just explain how/why you want to do it and leave the label off. You could present Joanne's site as a new twist on approaching discipline, even though you're already familiar with it. Jane Nelson's 4 "R's" for consequences might be something solid he could work with. Rule out the extremes and what you know doesn't working (all purpose spanking, random punishing, permissiveness).... Bring some other options to the table, *and* challenge him to do the same. Pick your one principle and come up with 4-5 concise actions that the two of you can do that will help you teach/model it.

And don't cling to the ideal of having a "model GD" family. It's not about how perfectly we can make ourselves align with a paradigm we think is good... Gentle parenting can turn into formula-following just as easily as punishing can. Just concentrate on taking one step at a time toward improved functionality in your home.