Problems in social situations - is she just being manipulative?

[GrowingInGrace]

I need specific help on how to deal with my almost 4 yo middle child. I'm very conflicted as to how to handle her.

A case in point - when I was talking to neighbor's dh about the birth of their dd yesterday, dd2 (4 in September), was desperately trying to get my attention. She fussed at me for 15 mintues, she wanted me to hold her, I told her to go play. She whined harder to get me to pick her up. She continued to fuss in my arms, wanting to ride her bike, but wanted me to go with her to get it (it was about 20 feet away). I told her to go get it. She didn't want to without me. She also said she wanted water, but didn't want to go in the house to get some. I had to stop what I was doing and go to her because she was fussing so much about everything.

She clings to me a lot when I go to my mother's house. She used to be more outgoing and would greet her grandma with little problem, now she hems and haws and almost refuses.

She seems to get "tired" a lot when she is asked to do something. She had a horrendous meltdown when we walked once to dd1's preschool and kept telling me she was "tired" and wanted to be picked up. I had dd1 in the umbrella stroller and couldn't pick her up and didn't want to pick her up because it was hot.

My mother seems to think there is a problem. I've asked her opinion, in part because since she does have some involvement in her town's school and their special needs things and she has helped a lot with my nephew who has special needs. And of course because she does know my dd and maybe she sees something I don't.

On one hand, she has concerns that I might be simply raising a brat because I give in to her (not instantly, but I try to hold her off, distract her, try another tactic, but usually end up compromising), and not taking her aside and disciplining her (like spanking) for such behavior. I've told her it's not because I haven't tried, but because spanking usually backfires and makes her escalate into a terrible tantrum. I've also told her that she's not this bad when we are inside the home anymore. She's actually improved in that respect.

But every day going out to play after dinner usually results in bad behavior for her. Something sets her off - someone taking her toy, her swing, someone not letting her play, someone listening to what she has to say. It's been so hot and humid here lately that the only comfortable time to play outside is after 5.

The other thing she mentioned is that there may be a social problem with her. She keeps telling me that at almost 4 she should not be behaving the way she does.

I have been so troubled by her behavior because when she gets locked in to a tantrum, it's terrible. Some times she almost goes into a seizure like behavior (I have her on film salivating at the mouth - that can't be normal, can it? And she got that bad in front of dd1 preschool). She's been improving, but that's in part because I have had to avoid pushing her to the point of sending her over the edge.

There's other minor things like trying to point out her good behavior to her will make her upset. It's like some times she likes the attention, but she doesn't want to be singled out for anything. Pointing out good behavior and bad behavior elicits the same response - tears and running away. Dh tries to say anything to her, even if it's good, and she's so afraid of him lately (he is a good guy, but when they drive him nuts, he bellows at them) and he can't even do anything to comfort her. It makes her more upset. It's frustrating for him too. Half the time he understands, half the time it makes him mad.

I'm a little concerned about what preschool will be like. Already she is telling me she doesn't want to go because she doesn't want me to leave her there, she wants me to be with her. I have elected to send her to preschool, because I feel it will be the best thing for her in that she can learn to be without me and learn to get along with others. And if not, maybe the teacher will be able to see some of the things I'm concerned about and point me in the right direction for some help.

The thing of it is, I know she's bright, loves music, and on the surface, seems so "normal". But then these social issues are still happening. And basically, I've probably added to this behavior, because I'm just waiting for her to "outgrow" it, rather than really focus on trying techniques to help her. Everybody here chalks most behavior issues in this age group to being a "3 yo" thing, so I've been trying to just hold off and seeing if some of these things resolve on their own. But maybe they won't on their own.

Any thoughts?

[milkmommy]

Honestly she sounds 3 :shifty :hugheart I've always sayed kids are born with a whinny chip set to go off when even guests are over or the phone rings. :giggle
Thinks that help here.. stopping my adult conversation to dirrectly tell DD, I know you have something to tell me and I really want to listen righ now Mrs/Mr XX is talking when we are finished I'd love to hear what you have to say. (if possible I givea time like we need 5 mintues then I can hear what you have to say)

Have a snack and activity ready if I cananticipate have someone over I set up a snack and an activity for Cecilia at the table she doesn't have to eat or do it but its there.

Explain before hand. Mrs X is comming over to talk with mommy you need to be polite and not interupt....


She seems to get "tired" a lot when she is asked to do something. She had a horrendous meltdown when we walked once to dd1's preschool and kept telling me she was "tired" and wanted to be picked up. I had dd1 in the umbrella stroller and couldn't pick her up and didn't want to pick her up because it was hot.

My guess was she was hot and tired :hug2 You said you didn't want to pick her up cause it was hot (and you were dealing with other things) she was likely hot and tired as well. :hugheart

She keeps telling me that at almost 4 she should not be behaving the way she does. :scratch while the behavior might be inappropiate and I'm not suggesting just waiting it out all here sound 100% normal and age appropiate. While I have just one child I grew up surrounded by preschoolers as my mother runs one from our home (preschool not daycare) school enviroment is always diffrent from home yes but 25+ years of seeing this age and you do learn somethings on child development. :giggle So I'll say it again SHE from this post sounds TOTALLY normal she may bea little shy in some areas a little timid in others. SHe may needa little more one on one time or more less outside time :shrug but nothing jumps out as being wrong actually it all jumps out as AWW yes shes 3. Even if she turns 4 tommorow shes still 3.

Deanna

[MarynMunchkins]

She sounds 3.5 and tired to me. :shrug Definitely intense though. :hug

Honestly, I'd skip going outside after dinner and do an earlier bedtime. Take her out to play early before it gets too hot. :)

[GrowingInGrace]

Honestly she sounds 3 :shifty :hugheart I've always sayed kids are born with a whinny chip set to go off when even guests are over or the phone rings. :giggle



I think you are right on with that one. Well, I think what you said about all of it sounds good.

And yes, I know she can be quite intense - but intensely loving too, so it's not all bad. Maybe you are onto something about going out in the am instead of at night. But, it's kind of hard, because that's when the neighborhood friends are out.

But I do think, for her, more calming indoor activities would probably be better than going out after dinner and getting her into bed sooner. We can try to figure out something else to do...

[milkmommy]

We have the outside struggle as well :hug2 Since were in apartments there isn't any "priviate area" DD actually loves playng with friends and such shes sooo not shy but shes introverted something many that don't really know her would go :scratch (since shes also very people person) sometimes shes needs to be outside get in some good movment breath in the air but needs to be alone and she stuggles with needing the alone time and wanting to be with her friends. (melts down cause so and so wont leave her alone and wants to play with so and so at the same time :no) We find a more sctructured walk in the evening better than more open free play. Morning outside free play works better.

Deanna

[Kyasmom]

:hug2 3.5 is tough for lots of mommas and kiddos (I haven't been there yet personally, but I have seen it in our daycare kids :))

Do you think she is looking for concrete boundaries?
On one hand, she has concerns that I might be simply raising a brat because I give in to her (not instantly, but I try to hold her off, distract her, try another tactic, but usually end up compromising), and not taking her aside and disciplining her (like spanking) for such behavior. I've told her it's not because I haven't tried, but because spanking usually backfires and makes her escalate into a terrible tantrum. I've also told her that she's not this bad when we are inside the home anymore. She's actually improved in that respect.
I wonder if you could figure out before you answer if you are willing stick to your answer through a meltdown/ severe fussing. Then, if you are, say no and reflect feelings and such through all of her big feelings. She might be experimenting to see how much control she actually has. :hug2 I know it can be really hard!

Honestly, I'd skip going outside after dinner and do an earlier bedtime. Take her out to play early before it gets too hot. :)

I agree :)

[ProudMommaof2]

My DS is 4 y/o today, and he has an amazing amount of social issues, several of which you mentioned your DD does. He got so embarrassed when we had a small family party with my sister and her family the other day when we sang Happy Birthday, he just completely burst into tears. He str=arted off smiling, but as the song went on his face just clouded over and he started looking down at his lap...then he just wailed. He gets upset sometimes about good attention, although this has improved some. He used to be really odd about it, and if I said something like, "Oh, you did a great job picking up your toys!" he would frown and say, "No, don't say that to me." :scratch He doesn't do that very often anymore, but he does get very shy and often won't speak to people when they greet him. Other times he's a little chatterbox. Very unpredictable. He also has recently been refusing to go to his Sunday School class or even his grandparents house without me, both things he used to do easily and happily before. :shrug He, like your DD, is completely "normal" at home with me, talkative (VERY! :giggle), singing, playing with his baby sis, laughing, but being around other people seems to really intimidate him a lot of the time.
I don't have much in the way of solutions for you, but just letting you know this is something we are going through too...you are not alone. :hug

[GrowingInGrace]

My DS is 4 y/o today, and he has an amazing amount of social issues, several of which you mentioned your DD does. He got so embarrassed when we had a small family party with my sister and her family the other day when we sang Happy Birthday, he just completely burst into tears. He str=arted off smiling, but as the song went on his face just clouded over and he started looking down at his lap...then he just wailed. He gets upset sometimes about good attention, although this has improved some. He used to be really odd about it, and if I said something like, "Oh, you did a great job picking up your toys!" he would frown and say, "No, don't say that to me." :scratch He doesn't do that very often anymore, but he does get very shy and often won't speak to people when they greet him. Other times he's a little chatterbox. Very unpredictable. He also has recently been refusing to go to his Sunday School class or even his grandparents house without me, both things he used to do easily and happily before. :shrug He, like your DD, is completely "normal" at home with me, talkative (VERY! :giggle), singing, playing with his baby sis, laughing, but being around other people seems to really intimidate him a lot of the time.
I don't have much in the way of solutions for you, but just letting you know this is something we are going through too...you are not alone. :hug


Yes, that sounds just like dd. She's even said "no, don't say that to me" when we have said nice things about her. Unpredictable is the word for it.


I wonder if you could figure out before you answer if you are willing stick to your answer through a meltdown/ severe fussing. Then, if you are, say no and reflect feelings and such through all of her big feelings. She might be experimenting to see how much control she actually has. :hug2 I know it can be really hard!


That probably has to happen. I'm guessing since neither one of us is used to me sticking through to the end, it's going to be tough.

One case in point: she refuses to open up the toilet seat to go potty. She wants one of us to do it. She will stand there until someone opens it. And she won't wipe herself. Almost 4 and won't even try. Why? Because she doesn't want to get her hands dirty and have to wash them. Dh thinks we should make her do it herself, even if it means she may pee her pants, and make her sit on the potty until she wipes herself. But I'm pretty sure the one time I did that she just pulled up her undies without wiping. Is this situation about control, or about a deep reluctance for personal hygiene :scratch?

[BHope]

Could you leave the toilet seat up and just close the bathroom door? That way she doesn't have to mess with that aspect of pottying? What about finding some "fun" wipes for her. Either the wet disposable wipes or even some cloth wipes. (Just have a small basket for wipes that you wash near the toilet.) If you did the cloth wipes she could help you make some out of her favorite flannel material. I'm thinking strawberry shortcake, race cars, flowers... things like that.

Do you not wash hands after every bathroom visit? Maybe if she realized she was going to wash hands regardless, it would be less of an issue in the long run?

My DD1 likes to wash her hands with foaming soap. Maybe that might provide some incentive?

[Marsha]

While it may be normal, some of the stuff sounds like my dd. I suffered with wondering about her forever and ever, and finally told her pediatricain about all the "stuff." I thought he'd tell me my discipline was incorrect, or she was too coddled, or even taht I was to neurotic or something.
But he almost immediately and before I had finished my laundry basket of symptoms, referred me to an OT for Sensory Processing Disorder.
The bathroom stuff, the meltdowns, the hating to have even good attention focused on her, all sounds like my oldest dd.
And since it's not your oldest, you probably can sense the difference even more.
Here's an awesome website on the subject:
http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/index.html

[J3K]

I have a child , that even near the age of ten , must have physical contact with me when out and about. She's getting much better , but add in the extra of an unknown person (or a hot cranky afternoon)...and whoa...meltdown city. She's getting more control over speaking her feelings instead of melting...but I still hear in the middle of my conversation "Mom , I'm at the end of my rope and need to get away." Which I suppose coming from a small child is humorous...but it lets me know that she's near a meltdown. I once heard "Mom , I've passed the point of no return. Get me home now. Sorry I didn't mention it sooner." :giggle I think giving words to children helps YOU too. (you are hot and tired aren't you ? I'll finish up in just a second. )

Make physical contact with her in those situations. She needs reassurance you aren't going anywhere. Hold her hand , stroke her hair , pick her up for literally two minutes , excuse yourself a second with the adult. ( Excuse me , I need to deal with this)...then explain "I'm talking to Mrs.Zork and I need a minute. Let me hold your hand."

The wiping thing ....the whole bathroom thing...because I have sensory orders I couldn't wipe my kids past the diaper stage. Once they started using the toilet they wiped themselves. I figured if they didn't get it all , or even didn't do it.... they got clean that night in the bath. And they all learned eventually to wipe with verbal instruction from me. I've had parents say "My kid NEVER wipes by himself , how'd you get him to do it ?" and I say "By refusing to wipe."

And we too , wash our hands every time we use the bathroom. The person peeing MUST wash their hands. Gets them in the habit for when they need to use a public restroom.

[ArmsOfLove]

She sounds classic 3.5 yo :hug2 Ames and Ilg in "Your 3 year Old" do a wonderful job of explaining what is going on at this stage--and how after a confident 3 they can go into a very anxious 3.5 :( It's normal and I'm sorry you are being blamed for what God designed. It is a good stage to have firm boundaries because "giving in" or unclear boundaries can create more anxiety, but she is also learning so many new things that she is probably more tired and it's often an age where children nap again if given the opportunity. At the very least a good quiet time during the day may help :)

[Joanne]

The other thing she mentioned is that there may be a social problem with her. She keeps telling me that at almost 4 she should not be behaving the way she does.

I think both you *and* your mom's expectations of her are too high. This colors your perception. Your dd sounds perfectly normal, with expected personality quirks.

I'm a little concerned about what preschool will be like. Already she is telling me she doesn't want to go because she doesn't want me to leave her there, she wants me to be with her. I have elected to send her to preschool, because I feel it will be the best thing for her in that she can learn to be without me and learn to get along with others. And if not, maybe the teacher will be able to see some of the things I'm concerned about and point me in the right direction for some help.

Many children thrive in a preschool. Some because "preschool" is a match for them. Many because the elements involved in a good preschool are those that set children up for success.

Now, I post the following being against the ever growing idea that preschool is universally a good thing. K? But I don't believe that 1) children need preschool and 2) that preschool helps clingy/attached kids. Kids learn social skills through time, experience, coaching and practice. All of that can be done with or without preschool. Being in preschool does *not* guarantee that children will learn appropriate separation responses or social interaction. Some children are stressed by preschool or the idea of preschool. It's ok to not send them.

But I'm pretty sure the one time I did that she just pulled up her undies without wiping. Is this situation about control, or about a deep reluctance for personal hygiene ?

Wiping is a pain, it's messy and it's smell. :shrug However, she must move the seat, wipe and wash hands anyway. I'd assist her with her own hands until she does it all herself.

[GrowingInGrace]

I have asked her now to start washing her hands and I do it with her, and she fusses a bit through it, but she's not downright refusing to do it. Which is an improvement. I figure if I can at least start with that, and work on the toilet seat later. She would really have a reaction like I was torturing her when I took her hand to move it up. For now, I'm trying to remember to leave the toilet seat up. The only reason we leave it down is that we close it to flush and then forget to come back to pick it up again.

On the preschool thing. One thing that kinda indicates to me she might actually thrive in that environment is how she was during a 6-week sports "camp" over the summer. Every Monday we went to the park where she participated in different sports (soccer, t-ball, basketball). As soon as the coaches started, she would run right up to where she needed to be, she listened very well whereas at least half of the other 3 yo were not able to, she was incredibly focused on whatever task was at hand, whereas other kids were very distracted, got bored, wandered off back to their moms on the sidelines. She really enjoyed it immensely. I thought it could go either way with her. I thought she might have done the opposite and actually refuse to participate. But she really loved it.

On a side note, I was once very against sending my kids to preschool, smugly thinking how unnecessary it was because I once thought I could do a better job than them teaching my kids (which I know I can). And I agree it's not necessary or even beneficial for all children. I partly thought it was for moms who simply wanted to "get rid of" their kids for a couple of hours (and I got that impression from moms who told me they couldn't wait to put their children in preschool for that reason). I certainly didn't send my dd1 for that reason. I also didn't send her so they could teach her things, because I've taught her most of the things she learned at school here at home. But I sent dd1 because she was so extremely shy and even interactions with the neighborhood kids was very painful for her. The preschool I sent her to had classes of 10 children and it was 2 blocks from home. I felt that 10 children were not too many that would overwhelm her. I definitely felt that sending her to someplace with more than that would really overwhelm her. I sent her with the intention of pulling her out if it caused her stress. But she really enjoyed it and it gave her a confidence I wasn't able to. She is a much more confident child than she was a year ago.

I have a feeling that will be like that for dd2 as well. And if not, I will not force her to go. I want it to be enjoyable for her, and if it's not, then we'll reevaluate it.

[GrowingInGrace]

I have a child , that even near the age of ten , must have physical contact with me when out and about. She's getting much better , but add in the extra of an unknown person (or a hot cranky afternoon)...and whoa...meltdown city. She's getting more control over speaking her feelings instead of melting...but I still hear in the middle of my conversation "Mom , I'm at the end of my rope and need to get away." Which I suppose coming from a small child is humorous...but it lets me know that she's near a meltdown. I once heard "Mom , I've passed the point of no return. Get me home now. Sorry I didn't mention it sooner." :giggle I think giving words to children helps YOU too. (you are hot and tired aren't you ? I'll finish up in just a second. )

Make physical contact with her in those situations. She needs reassurance you aren't going anywhere. Hold her hand , stroke her hair , pick her up for literally two minutes , excuse yourself a second with the adult. ( Excuse me , I need to deal with this)...then explain "I'm talking to Mrs.Zork and I need a minute. Let me hold your hand."

The wiping thing ....the whole bathroom thing...because I have sensory orders I couldn't wipe my kids past the diaper stage. Once they started using the toilet they wiped themselves. I figured if they didn't get it all , or even didn't do it.... they got clean that night in the bath. And they all learned eventually to wipe with verbal instruction from me. I've had parents say "My kid NEVER wipes by himself , how'd you get him to do it ?" and I say "By refusing to wipe."

And we too , wash our hands every time we use the bathroom. The person peeing MUST wash their hands. Gets them in the habit for when they need to use a public restroom.


Thanks I do agree giving her words helps. She isn't AS bad as she once was and at least say "Humph, I am MAD", sometimes. Sometimes she gets wound up too much and can't. She is able to use her words more earlier in the day, than at night. And physical contact does help her much more than pushing her away. But sometimes I get touched out myself and can't bring myself to do it.

She does have to have a dr appt in Sept, so maybe I'll ask about sensory disorders. She does ask me to change her shirt when it gets the teeniest bit wet.