I'm feeling judgemental and harsh....how not to be? [Archive]

Evenstarlight

06-07-2007, 03:23 PM

I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum for this but I have no idea where else to ask this question.

How do you promote breastfeeding, AP, without comming accross judgemental?
At the moment I'm a first time mom, (so i'm not all knowing or highly experienced) but I have found myself, even with having what i'd classify as not the easiest baby in the world, really loving and enjoying different aspects of AP. Even though I'm sleep deprived and stressed at the moment.
We had a crazy first three months where I was literally a binky on legs, but she's nearly 6 months now and when I look at her strong body and see her growing, I just feel so blessed that God has given me the tools to grow her and feed her myself. So it's with this passion that I really want to encourage other women. Here in Britian, breastfeeding is not the norm, it is being promoted by the health care professionals, but it really isn't taking off. I definitly feel in the minority, and there seems to be a real complacent "I'll give it a go, but if it doesn't work out it's no big deal" type attidude. It's so hard though, when I talk to women about it, I fear I come accross arrogant and pushy...and i don't mean to be. I don't know.
i found this pro-breatfeeding artical today, and I posted it on another forum and I got some really negative reactions. I admit some of the language used was a bit provacative, (referring to formula as baby junk food) but I really got slammed for it. Maybe i was being too harsh...i don't know.

here is a link to the artical. http://www.theecologist.org/archive_detail.asp?content_id=586

So just a question to throw out there...how do you promote AP and breastfeeding without comming accross superior, judgemental, etc. Or is is just other people that take it that way???
I guess the other question is, Is it actually right to promote breastfeeding and be a bit of a "lactivist" or is it just making people feel bad?

Herbwifemama

06-07-2007, 05:21 PM

I want to come back to this. :)

allisonintx

06-07-2007, 05:29 PM

It's hard. Sometimes I do well, and sometimes I fail miserably. A friend of mine decided to formula feed hers because nursing took too much time :rolleyes2 I finally had to say, "I really love you and this is not a topic we can talk about" when she was telling me about how much easier it was to formula feed. :hissyfit She was really taken back by my passion. Passion sometimes scares people. I find it easiest to have a little something that I say with a wink to take the edge off. When I was first mothering, I would say "Oh, I'm just too lazy to formula feed. When she gets hungry in the middle of the night I just roll over and pull up my shirt. Oh, and it's free and best for them, but really, it's just so much less work." If someone takes it wrong, then you just move on.

illinoismommy

06-07-2007, 07:51 PM

My perspective, I tried to breastfeed and really wanted to, but it did not happen, so I thought "I wonder how I would feel about this article" I followed the link, I started the article. I thought "hmmm this isn't so bad" however I could tell right away it was taking a scare tactics role, and I hate that in an article ... then i got to the title Killing Babies and I'd honestly had enough. If you want to share about breastfeeding I suggest using better articles as a springboard. Most people don't respond well to guilt tactics and fear mongering.

ReedleBeetle

06-07-2007, 08:07 PM

cheri

06-07-2007, 08:10 PM

Most people don't respond well to guilt tactics and fear mongering.

I agree. I really think that most people know that breastfeeding is best. It's not about telling people that they're going to kill their babies or make them horribly sick if they formula feed. IMO, it's more about educating society and making breastfeeding seem normal, and supporting women and encouraging them to continue bfing. And making hospitals better, encouraging better practices, etc.

illinoismommy

06-07-2007, 08:10 PM

I have a passion about this too. I have come to realize that I really have to temper my passion with love sometimes. The biggest thing I saw in that article that would turn people off, is the big, bold, red "Kiiling Babies". Yes, there were a lot facts there that a lot of people would say are just scare tactics. They are scary, and they are used to induce fear to change the readers mind, but they are facts. It is written in an attempt to sway the reader. I can understand why there are people that would be upset by it though. It definitely points out that formula is not as good as breastmilk.

Janet, I didn't mean anything at all about that towards you! I know you fought very hard to try and nurse your daughter. She has to eat. You are feeding her and that is what matters! :hug

I just totally think that there are tons of articles out there on how great breastmilk is and how formula is not as good, and I think one of those articles would be great to post on another board to share how great it is :heart ....and not this article-- not if you really want people to change, because despite whether its true or not its not effective which would be the point right?

ArmsOfLove

06-07-2007, 08:12 PM

when I first got online I was a member at a radical alternative mothering board. I had posted an answer to someone about why to do or not do something and they came back that I was being judgmental :scratch I didn't feel judgmental :shrug I wasn't being harsh :shrug So I was typing my reply that basically explained how I wasn't judging them, just didn't want them to have to go through what I did and learn the hard way like I did . . . and then God broke in and wanted to know why I thought I was the only person entitled to learn the hard way :shifty

I've found that sharing my experience and my perception and what I have learned or what I've gone through is much more helpful than telling people what they should do. It's my story, afterall, and there is no judgment in that--it's just my story :)

Can Dance

06-07-2007, 08:18 PM

I really like that article. the truth needs to be told that in *Western* society that babies die from being formula fed. its not fear. its the truth. the fact is formula companies have made it a "life style" choice when I don't think it is. babies are biologically designed to be breastfed. I am sick of formula companies lying and making society complacent about a GIANT health issue.
but I am sure it would make FF'ers uncomfortable. it should. it shouldn't be a decision made ever lightly. :no

ArmsOfLove

06-07-2007, 08:32 PM

I read the article and I agreed with it . . . though I would have rearranged the article to put the whys they aren't breastfeeding ahead of the risks of not (and with a different title---that is just too inflammatory). I think it would help to not blame the mother and then really blame the formula.

illinoismommy

06-07-2007, 08:43 PM

the truth needs to be told that in *Western* society that babies die from being formula fed. its not fear. its the truth.

Perhaps this would better discussed in a less public forum, but frankly I do not believe that a baby without other influencing factors will die from being formula fed (neither do I believe that cosleepers will kill their babies but there are plenty of articles out there on how that is the "truth"), and overall I find your post to be judgemental and harsh, and the title of this thread is how NOT to be those things, which is a worthy goal and what I believe Jesus would do, I have a lot more to say on that subject but I will stop there.

I love how mothers tear each other apart...

Linnis

06-07-2007, 08:55 PM

I'm sure I'm not the only one who had a grandparent who's said "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." it's true. I live in a community where I would have to offer money to locate another nursing mother. I am open about my choice to breastfeed and am always willing to offer information etc.

This article would hurt feelings and no useful information would be retained by the formula feeding or considering mother other than I'm a horrible mean breastfeeder.

We should be able to promote breast milk and breast feeding on it's own merits, not my trashing formula.

:blush More times than not I fail at being tactful. I do try though. :shifty

I promote breastfeeding and AP, by doing so. Similar to how I promote Jesus. I don't hassle people I do what I do and when they ask I reply "Yes, I'm breastfeeding. No It's not gross." and offer more info. If they take it yey, if not, I might have planted a seed.

PurpleButterfly

06-07-2007, 09:22 PM

I see excellent points in every response here. :yes The article is factual and presented in a very forthright manner. Moms who did not bf would naturally be offended by it, but that's not the point of the article - it's about giving precise and strong information to mothers who may be sucked into the big $$$ business of formula feeding and may not have ever had access to those facts before. :shrug

I appreciate the authors passion and research, and if it were my daughter or DIL reading it as a pregnant mama-to-be, I'd be very glad and grateful for her to have that information. :yes I believe that articles like this are actually a wonderful support for mothers, but like pp said, passion is often regarded with offense when it hits a personal note. :neutral I'm sorry for any mamas who feel unsupported by it, but would hope that they would be even more aware of and committed to the need for support and education in this arena. :)

allisonintx

06-07-2007, 09:25 PM

I share about breastfeeding openly, passionately and hopefully inspirationally, but what you have in this post is a glimpse into the way I feel about breastfeeding in a way that I rarely share it. Raw and honest.

I wouldn't use that article as an inducement to breastfeeding, but I do believe it is right-on.

I always try to find a nice way to not say what I really think but in the end I feel that I have pretty good grounds for my gut reaction to moms who don't nurse. I don't like dancing around the fact that the reality is that formula is inferior in every way to breastmilk. It's not popular to say, but it is still true no matter whose feelings it hurts.

I nursed babies for 10 years, through heck and high water, bloody nipples (for six months while I searched for someone to clip a tied tongue) so bad that I often felt my nipples might come off in my baby's mouth, through in laws who disapproved, through pregnancies and all kinds of life's ups and downs. I nursed even when it meant that I was working 48hours a week and pumping all that time. I nursed through major postpartum depression. I nursed and nursed and nursed in almost every circumstance that you can imagine except low supply (I have oversupply and OAMER issues instead) so when a mom comes at me with all her zillion excuses, I'll be honest, what I see is just excuses.

I would nurse my baby under any circumstance no matter how bad it hurt, no matter how emotional it made me. The only thing that might keep me from doing it would be cancer treatment drugs or drugs to treat BPD, and even then I'd be looking for a way around it. It is a MAJOR priority for me, for my babies' first years and I'm not apologetic about it being the very best, and I'm not apologetic for believing that it is God's perfect plan for every baby.

I am much much more passionate about breastfeeding than I am about natural birth. Birth is over in one event, breastfeeding sets the stage for a lifetime, and that's not just my not so humble opinin, it's a fact.

BHope

06-07-2007, 09:37 PM

Subbing because I want to read the article, but I need my beauty sleep first. ;) Be back in the morning.

Linnis

06-07-2007, 09:49 PM

I nursed babies for 10 years, through heck and high water, bloody nipples (for six months while I searched for someone to clip a tied tongue) so bad that I often felt my nipples might come off in my baby's mouth, through in laws who disapproved, through pregnancies and all kinds of life's ups and downs. I nursed even when it meant that I was working 48hours a week and pumping all that time. I nursed through major postpartum depression. I nursed and nursed and nursed in almost every circumstance that you can imagine except low supply (I have oversupply and OAMER issues instead) so when a mom comes at me with all her zillion excuses, I'll be honest, what I see is just excuses.

I would nurse my baby under any circumstance no matter how bad it hurt, no matter how emotional it made me. The only thing that might keep me from doing it would be cancer treatment drugs or drugs to treat BPD, and even then I'd be looking for a way around it. It is a MAJOR priority for me, for my babies' first years and I'm not apologetic about it being the very best, and I'm not apologetic for believing that it is God's perfect plan for every baby.

I am much much more passionate about breastfeeding than I am about natural birth. Birth is over in one event, breastfeeding sets the stage for a lifetime, and that's not just my not so humble opinion, it's a fact.

:clap

Sometimes I feel that way.

ReedleBeetle

06-07-2007, 09:54 PM

Allison, I feel much like you do. It was important enough to me to induce lactation and pump for months in order to get DROPS of milk...literally....AFTER months of pumping. Yes, my son had formula. Before he came home to me.I had no choice in the matter. The moment he was placed in our arms, he has never had a drop of formula since. He was 7.5 months old when we started nursing. He had 2 teeth already and was used to being able to bite bottle nipples. We dealt with a TON of biting, espcially when latching on and off. We still deal with it when he is teething (like right now) but it isn't nearly as bad. I had mastitis no less than 5 times in 2 years and 1 possible bout of yeast. I try and be very nice and not offensive towards people about it, but all I see are excuses too. As my DH always says, If I can do it and my baby wasn't even born to me to give me the "easy" road (meaning milk) then 99% of all other mothers should be able to also.

Amber

06-07-2007, 11:38 PM

I agree with most of what the article has to say. However because of the they way it is written I think it would be better given to moms who are trying to decide if they want to breastfeed rather than people who have already choosen to formula feed. I can see how people who have choosen to formula feed would be offended by what the artilce has to say.

AFA how to promote AP type views without sounding judgmental...whenever I say something to people coming from an AP slant, be it co-sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing, etc, I talk as if it *is* the normal choice (it is much eaiser to do IRL than online for me). I don't appoligize for it, and I act as if I have no doubts. If I feel like second guessing myself I do it in AP supportave places (like here :heart)

Evenstarlight

06-07-2007, 11:59 PM

Thank you for all your responses!! Just to clarify a few things.

I don't think I would use this artical as a "this is why you should breastfeed" to a new mother to be. As in, I wouldn't email it to them and just leave it there, or shove a copy of it in their face. I think the purpose of this artical is to go after the formula industry and cultural attitudes, not individual women. When I posted it on the other forum, It wasn't with that purpose, I actually directed to post to breastfeeders as an encouragement and something I generally thought they'd be interested in. Obviously non bfers read it and were offended though.

However, the artical represents in many ways the passion I feel, the reasons why I feel the way I do about it, and my own motivations of wanting to encourage and promote breastfeeding, but obviously to do so in a non judgemental way. I would never go out of my way to make someone feel guilty, especially if they had every intention of bfing and it just didn't work out for whatever reason. I get more saddened towards people who just don't see it as an option full stop.

Hope this makes sense.

Can Dance

06-08-2007, 01:46 AM

I am not *judging* anyone. I know you went through what you went through and in the end chose FF. I know i twas not something you chose lightly. :hug2

but I am getting tired of this "well it might make a mother feel guilty." no, no one can make anyone else feel guilty. Besides I don't view this issue as an individual mother thing anyway. I view it as as societal acceptance, who have been majorly influenced by formula companies marketing strategies. that they are told "its not a big deal, who cares the baby will be fine, etc etc." I also find it really hard to accept that most mothers would chose to formula feed if they knew the truth of the long term affects of doing so. and the fact is I have read in more than one study the long term affects and that babies do die from FF in the West. we are under the mistaken impression that that is just reserved for third world countries. any breastmilk is good, any breastmilk will help offset future healthy problems. if babies even had colostrum, it would also have enormous health benefits. I remember reading something that said even if it was three weeks of bfing, that would off set a lot of problems. I no longer view it as a lifestyle choice though, babies were and have always been biologically designed to have breastmilk from the getgo. its hard to argue with basic biological facts. :neutral

CelticJourney

06-08-2007, 05:50 AM

If I understand the question of the original post, it is 'how do I advocate without turning away my audience', not about the validity of the argument or our passion about it. I think it goes without saying that we are all breastfeeding supporters here.

Words and phrases that sound 'extreme' (even if they are not) will shut an audience down immediately and discredit the speaker in their minds. For example, I would never start a discussion about breatfeeding with someone who was 'on the fence' by describing my nursing relationship with my oldest when she was three - some things you just work up to :shifty.

I always found it worked best when I used 'I' phrases - like Allison described "I love that I can just roll over and pull up my shirt". Or "I found it a little disturbing reading those baby books when they talked about feeding options. It seemed all the benefits of formula were for the mom and none for the baby. And even those I have now learned are misrepresented, at least by my experience."

Also, never talk about the struggles unless you know who you are talking to. If someone was genuinely interested in making a decision I would honestly tell them that the first week was rough, but the benefits that lasted the five years that followed (two babies, one continous experience) were so very, very worth it. I wish I had been told what to expect - I was very pro-breastfeeding from the start, but somehow thought I was crashing and burning that first week. It established trust - you told them the truth, so they can trust about the rest.

I guess in a way I see having the breastfeeding conversation as similar to witnessing - start small and don't scare them off. :yes

katiekind

06-08-2007, 06:52 AM

For an article like that (which I only skimmed) I would say you have to know your audience. It looks to me like that article is trying to pursue the issue as a public health issue, not as an individual issue. But mothers encounter this issue at the individual level--and at a deeply personal individual level at that.

I guess that is what will always make the public health side of the breastfeeding/formula feeding choice difficult to present.

But the public health aspect IS important to look at. We need to know, on the societal level that breastfeeding is better for our babies than formula feeding. And then we need to know, on the societal level, what obstacles stand between our babies and the better choice, and what can be done to remove the obstacles.

Teacher Mom

06-08-2007, 07:22 AM

In my own honest opinion, BF mommas are usually the minority. So for someone to feel that they are being judged against by a BF momma seems kinda silly to me. I was the one being judged by well meaning family and friends who could not understand why I would "chose" to BF. I have never told a ff momma they should bf, but ff mommas would always question my bf decision???

Back to the original question: how not to be judgemental. Just do what you feel is RIGHT for YOU and YOUR family. That is all that matters. If someone asks you, tell them from YOUR point of view. Do not state it as a "fact". Because inevitably, someone will find another "fact" discrediting your "fact".

illinoismommy

06-08-2007, 08:24 AM

Well I skimmed the rest, but you caught me. I just don't feel that strongly on the issue anymore, or maybe I never did? I don't think that putting my son through hell for a little breastmilk for my daughter is worth the price. I never will. I have made a promise with myself to never speak of breastfeeding with anyone on GCM again, so when I have my third child don't even ask. I will try again, and I may make it or I may not. :)

Teacher Mom

06-08-2007, 08:42 AM

I don't think that putting my son through hell for a little breastmilk for my daughter is worth the price. I never will.

Huh? :scratch How would bf your daughter affect your son??? Have I missed something???

I have made a promise with myself to never speak of breastfeeding with anyone on GCM again, so when I have my third child don't even ask. I will try again, and I may make it or I may not. :)

okay. :shrug

Not sure where this is coming from, but sounds very angry.

CelticJourney

06-08-2007, 08:44 AM

purplerose

06-08-2007, 08:53 AM

I haven't read all the responses yet, but when I had DS1 while we were living in the UK, I found bf'ing to be very difficult over there. It is definately not the norm over there. I was specifically told by my GP at Joshie's 3 mo appt that there was NO nutritional benefits bf'ing past 3 months of age. They were dead serious too. I didn't know one woman there who bf past 3 months, if even that long. It's hard not to come off judgemental especially when women are saying "Well, my doctor said......" :hug2

illinoismommy

06-08-2007, 08:53 AM

I just don't feel that strongly on the issue anymore, or maybe I never did? ....... I have made a promise with myself to never speak of breastfeeding with anyone on GCM again,

Janet, I think it's a healthy choice to stay away from topics that you have a different opinion on from the core (I do it myself). If you have made a decision about feeding your baby, then it doesnt' help you in any way to stir it all up again and bring up all those emotions. As you may or may not remember, I did not nurse my adoptive son - I made a decision and chose not to discuss it. I do think the the original topics was "I AM passionate about this, how do I positively communicate with other mothers".

Yes, that's it. There is some anger, but really what it is for me is a healthy boundary for my life so that's what I am going to do-- after all people here will only hear excuses anyway, and I have nothing to prove, so I will just stick with this boundary. I know where the LLL is, and the lactation consultants in my local hospital, and that will do just fine.

I also believe that I was answering the original question with my posts, I said that the article is not going to be effective in reaching people because its a lot of fear mongering and people do not respond to that. I think the article is garbage and that there are a lot of great positive articles out there about the benefits of breastfeeding that one of those should be used instead. So there you have it!

Amber

06-08-2007, 09:06 AM

JavaMama

06-08-2007, 09:20 AM

Hmm, when approaching the subject of nursing with someone, I usually talk about the health benefits and the extra emotional bonding. Yes, I admit it's sometimes hard... but I also point out that my two natural births gave way to a smoother bf'ing relationship whereas my induced/drugged birth resulted in a hard to nurse baby. I've pointed out how much healthier the breastfed cousins are compared to the FF cousins (even amongst siblings, the FF child has a lot of allergies and the BF child has only slight allergies, the BF toddler is doing great).

I'll usually suggest books that I know the local library carries and books that aren't from a lactivist perspective. I save my lactivist views for where I know I won't scare people away. ;) So THAT'S What They're For (humorous but factual... not quite my style but I think it's great for someone who isn't convinced yet), Sears' The Breastfeeding Book, LLL's The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding, a printed copy of ProMom.org's 101 Reasons to Breastfeed (http://www.promom.org/101) etc. I'm not going to loan out my copy of Milk, Money and Madness to just anyone. :lol

And Allison- you took the words right out of my mouth, once again. I remember a midwife I know telling me she doesn't take clients that aren't going to breastfeed, because she had one client who didn't and the whole experience was just really odd. She said everything felt off-kilter... there was no pulling the baby to the breast immediately following the birth. The way she described it to us gave me chills. With the information that is out there if a person is willing to seek it, I don't understand how a mom will choose to formula feed and believe it's an equal choice. Formula is inferior and that is a fact whether a person wants to believe it or not (remember some people though the world was flat? :no), we all know that and in a case where inferior is better than none at all, I'm not going to say a word. In a case where a mom could put a baby to her breast easily and she chooses not to, that I do not understand. :shrug I know, not my body/baby, not my choice but it still baffles me. :scratch

I've come into contact with women who "don't want to know" if there are risks to drugs in labor or benefits to breastfeeding and in a case like that, a large amount of distance is necessary...

It's a part of my personality that I'm not particularly proud of, because I do find myself judging, but as a voracious reader and a person who lives digging up random info (I adore the Net for that reason), I don't understand why having a child wouldn't give a person some incentive to be informed. :shrug

And I don't know if I'm articulating myself well right now either...

ReedleBeetle

06-08-2007, 09:24 AM

Yes, that's it. There is some anger, but really what it is for me is a healthy boundary for my life so that's what I am going to do-- after all people here will only hear excuses anyway, and I have nothing to prove, so I will just stick with this boundary. I know where the LLL is, and the lactation consultants in my local hospital, and that will do just fine.

I think it is fair to say that most people here know your story and don't just hear excuses. I'm sorry that you feel like people are judging you and that you can't get support here, but I just don't see that as the case.

:yes Unfortunately, I know too many people IRL that it IS just excuses. When things got hard, they immediately turned to formula while saying "I just don't know what to do. I need help because this is hard." Then, when help is offered (as in "I don't have a pump." "Well, I have one here you can have for free....it is a double electric one.....you just have to pick it up.") and they refuse because they also want you to bring them the pump etc. then yeah.....I get mad. This same person, rather than breastfeed her baby herself (that she gave birth to) wanted me to come and breastfeed her for her (me who induced lactation and had plenty of milk for my son, but have no idea if I had enough for her daughter too). I offered her the frozen pumped milk that I wasn't using....all she had to do was come and get it. Nope. She formula fed instead and tells everyone.....well, I tried and just couldn't do it anymore....I tried EVERYTHING and nothing worked. Oh, and WIC offered her a pump and an SNS for free to use.....she refused both of those too....because she had roaches. I don't know what that has to do with it.....but ok. :scratch

RealLifeMama

06-08-2007, 09:33 AM

I agree with Allison. I do have strong feelings about it. I will try anything and everything I can to nurse my babies and would never, ever give up without a true knockdown, drag out fight! (although, I will admit, I came so close to opening that can of nutramigen at least once a day for a while.) In fact, as was pointed out by Teacher Mom, it is the BF moms that are more likely to be judged. I recently experienced that judgement from friends and family that thought I was endangering my FTT baby by not giving him formula as supplements. I am so thankful to the moms here at GCM and to son's healthcare providers and to my wonderful LC who helped us get through the FTT issues with C without having to resort to formula. And Praise be to God!!! He is totally thriving now. It was hard on my other kids, yes, it was. But it was worth it to us.
Others, however, do not feel the same way and they do not have to. I was much more militant with my first child than I am now after three. It is like I have internalized my beliefs so much that they are just part of my being, but when I only had one child and was learning everything, having all these realizations, that it was like when one first hears the Gospel and accepts it- you want to tell everyone, and not always with gentleness and tact, either. But after a while, you just are able to "preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words." People that know me know that they can call me for encouragement about BF-ing or gentle parenting. I tend to keep my mouth closed unless asked though, and even then, I have trained myself to use "I" statements. One way I have dealt with these feelings is to stay involved with organizations or moms groups where moms that need and want help can go, so that they really want to know and learn.

GodChick

06-08-2007, 10:06 AM

If I understand the question of the original post, it is 'how do I advocate without turning away my audience', not about the validity of the argument or our passion about it.

:yes I consider myself a lactivist, and the way I promote breastfeeding w/o being judgemental or harsh is to nurse my babies anywhere and everywhere. I nurse in public -- I do it descreetly and comfortably and with an air of normalacy. I honestly feel that the more normalized breastfeeding becomes in our culture, the more common it will become. :)

Mother of Sons

06-08-2007, 10:11 AM

I wrote a post but I changed my mind, maybe I'll come back to it later but for now I would say that for me, I choose to focus on the benefits of breastfeeding instead of the downside of formula. I also try to be realistic and not dramatic. Drama doesn't help anyone (killing babies in bold red letters is drama IMO) As far as promoting breastfeeding, I do the same kind of thing as Allison (I think she's the one that said it) "Oh, I'm too lazy for bottles" etc. At least that's what I used to say, can't say it now lol. or "Wow, did you know that breastfeeding helps baby whatever, I didn't know that!" "I" statements and all of that. Flies and honey. There is a place for attacking the formula industry (as grateful as I am for the industry) and there is a place for making changes in how it is marketed or sold but there is no place IMO for attacking formula feeders. It won't help the cause, it won't make breastfeeding or you look good kwim? Be compassionate, and NEVER assume anything about why a person is formula feeding or why a person stopped breastfeeding. You may make the difference for next time. It's hard not to be judgemental. In some ways I consider that a silver lining of my experiences. Not that I don't still struggle with it sometimes lol. I just try to remember that things aren't always what they seem on the outside and just because I was able to handle whatever, doesn't mean someone else can or should. Keep the PEOPLE first in your mind and the "cause" second.

RealLifeMama

06-08-2007, 10:57 AM

It's hard not to be judgemental. In some ways I consider that a silver lining of my experiences. Not that I don't still struggle with it sometimes lol. I just try to remember that things aren't always what they seem on the outside and just because I was able to handle whatever, doesn't mean someone else can or should. Keep the PEOPLE first in your mind and the "cause" second.

:yes True, so true- I used to be so anti-artificial nipple. :O (and I do still beat myself up for not giving an SNS more of a chance)
and MOS, now, you can say instead of "Oh, I'm too lazy for bottles" that "Bottlefeeding is *such* a royal pain!"

illinoismommy

06-08-2007, 10:58 AM

katiekind

06-08-2007, 11:58 AM

Keep the PEOPLE first in your mind and the "cause" second.

I think those are wise words. :heart

At the same time, there's a time to talk to individuals in a supportive and compassionate manner -- and there is a (different) time to talk to the community in general about the community health issue so that the community can do their part to get rid of preventable obstacles so that overall more babies will be breastfed.

ArmsOfLove

06-08-2007, 07:40 PM

:think I do think the difference between how I'd talk to an individual before me and the article that presents facts is a wide gap. I think that the societal view has become "breastfeeding is best but formula is just as good" Or "breastfeeding is best, but not worth it, thank God we have formula". These are the opinions I more often run into. I did get very in your face and pull out the facts when my sil was wanting to breastfeed and was new to it and was running into all of her friends *and* the stinking nurse at the maternity ward giving her garbage everywhere she looked :doh Thank God my bro called me to double check on what the nurse said because he thought it was garbage but wanted to make sure :tu But when I'd sit with her and her friends and they'd be *in her face* about how they could "never do what she's doing" or "it was too hard--good luck" or "I preferred the bottle--it was so much easier" I very boldly pulled out the "did you know that by breastfeeding she is reducing the risk of cancer in herself and her child?" and other things that backed them down ;) I wanted to embolden her and shut up her critics :rockon When they'd pull out their *reasons* that it didn't work I would switch to compassion and tell them I was sad they hadn't had more support and information on it, and then share with them what could have been done to address the very common problem. I tried to validate their real issues and assure them I wasn't judging them, but I also wasn't going to let misinformation sway my sil who was already post partum hormonal and not finding breastfeeding to be easy because of all the discouragement.

But I wouldn't sit with a friend who had chosen not to breastfeed and tell her the same things :) that just wouldn't be compassionate :no

and again, to the OP question about how to share without seeming judgmental, I got tired a long time ago with getting asked "have you seen your OB?" and "What formula are you using?" and finding myself saying, "Are you seeing an OB?" and "Are you breastfeeding?" As though I was asking the odd question :doh So I started going up to pregnant women and asking, "Have you found a good midwife yet?" and up to new moms and asking, "How is the breastfeeding going?" I'm trying to do my part in normalizing these things :D

IslandHome

06-10-2007, 07:24 PM

I'm a big breastfeeding advocate, and believe every mother should have as much support as possible to breastfeed her baby BUT...

I also don't believe it is going to be the best choice for every mother. While some people can cope with the challenges breastfeeding places their way, others will not... I've spoken to someone who gave up at 3 1/2 months who said she wished people had just told her to do what was best for her and the baby, rather then telling her she HAD to BF. Coming down with PND and not bonding with your baby because of the problems, is not really doing what's necessarily the best. For her BF'g never got better, and she struggled with mastitis, pain, and just never enjoying feeding.

I always think the best advocacy is focussing on how great breast milk is for a baby, and talking about how wonderful it is to BF. There's no point making women feel guilty for using forumla, when by that stage it's going to be difficult to reverse a decision. They're likely to be feeling guilty enough about that decision already. Having a baby is an intense time in any women's life, and it's good if we can support each other in this time.... without being unncessarily judgemental of others. Many a baby has thrived on formula...

Teribear

06-10-2007, 09:28 PM

I tend to avoid this forum because at times I get really BIG FEELINGS about some of the things that are said here that are fact but so hard to hear as a mother who was among the 1% that truly could not breastfeed. This caught my eye because I have wondered if there IS a way to encourage breastfeeding without simultaneously "putting down" or "judging" those who don't or can't. For me, its the difference between an attitude of "ANYONE can breastfeed if they have the right support and try hard enough" vs. acknowledging that no, not everyone who wants to CAN breastfeed and for us bottle feeding is not "less than" its the only choice we can make to keep our babies alive. No, its not as good as breastfeeding...but it beats the heck out of starving to death.

I would have had VERY BIG FEELINGS about the article referenced.

However, through discussions here I've become aware of the unethical ways that formula is marketed and the impact that has on babies all over the world, disproportionately so in the third world. So there is a place for these discussions. I think the key is balancing your passion for the cause, whatever the cause may be, with the knowledge that there are real people, good, well-meaning, perhaps ignorant, perhaps dealing with circumstance you will never face people on the other side of the argument and not hurting those people casually because the "rightness" of your cause is so very important. Passion is like a flame, controlled it provides illumination to a world that is in the dark, un-controlled it destroys everything in its path. Its a matter of keeping your passions under control. :shrug

Elora

06-11-2007, 07:08 AM

I could tell right away it was taking a scare tactics role, and I hate that in an article ... then i got to the title Killing Babies and I'd honestly had enough. If you want to share about breastfeeding I suggest using better articles as a springboard. Most people don't respond well to guilt tactics and fear mongering.

Ditto.

And also, articles like that, make moms who honestly tried with all the strength they could muster, feel like absolute pieces of garbage.

My baby was given a bottle by a LC and wouldn't nurse after that. He's almost SIX MONTHS OLD and I try every. single. day. to get him to nurse, I've been to FIVE different LCs, and he WON'T nurse. I am left pumping. If establishing a supply wasn't hard enough with a newborn after a c-section, going back to work and maintaining a supply almost killed me. And then when I FINALLY had enough milk to meet his needs, I got AF which really did a number on my supply and if it weren't for formula, my baby would have starved. I'm still having to supplement with formula. I don't have any choice. You cannot imagine how heartbroken I am over this. Sometimes I cry just mixing the formula. I don't really need a reminder that I'm killing him.

Where did you post it? To women who are already formula feeding? Do they even have any chance of breastfeeding at this point? Can you maybe leave pregnant moms information that is a little less harsh? If you'd like to be a lactivist, I'd suggest staying away from articles like those. They definately are offensive to some people. Maybe focus your engergy on support and education for new moms who try breastfeeding and are having problems? There is so much MISinformation and terrible "help" in hospitals...and a lack of help and support for new moms that are trying so desperately to breastfeed and need encouragement and a helping hand. Do you LLL there? Are you involved in that? I am not sure what the situation there is, but I think here in this area of the United States, the main problem is with the hospitals...they really aren't a helpful environment for establishing a breastfeeding relationship. This is where I intend to focus my efforts as soon as I can find time between pumping and supplementing my precious baby with cancer causing metals.

Can Dance

06-11-2007, 07:41 AM

if I may be perfectly frank because I keep reading this over and over again "this made me feel like bad" no, nothing can "make" you feel anything. I think that if you were had to chose formula because it was the difference between life and death (or in some cases the sanity of the mother) then its false guilt. that is not something you could control. I have never been in the position to have to chose formula for my child, but I know that if I did chose it, it would be a last resort. and on GCM at least, it should be preaching to the choir. would I be as frank as I am on here about what I think about formula companies marketing and subverting the health of children on a board that did not share my beliefs? no. but I also believe that if women *knew* the benefits of breastfeeding, formula truly would become a last resort. Formula companies have marketed in such a way that they have made it a lifestyle "choice", but that isn't the way it works. babies immune systems *need* breast milk in order to fully function properly and thrive. I am not sure why that idea in and of itself is so offensive, its biological fact. I try and be sensitive to those mothers who FF, I have no desire to "make them" feel guilty, but if the facts are guilt inducing, then :shrug the fact is all of us here on GCM have made at the very least a gallant effort to breastfeed our children, even if we were not all successful. there is no point in being angry at individual women, when you know better you chose better. and like I said, I don't honestly believe that women would chose formula from the beginning if they had a clue as to 1/10 of the benefits of bfing.

as for the above mentioned article, what I liked about it was that it did reflect the language that is necessary to motivate change. Language is a powerful thing. when you hear "breast is best", well everyone knows as parents we can't always do the "Best" for our children so formula becomes an acceptable option. but its not "Best", its normal. that means ff children are going to have more ear infections, they are going to have worse eye site, they are going to have more dental problems compared to those breastfed babies on the whole. this isn't something that can be painted over with a sugar glazed brush. if we have also bought into the bottle feeding culture mentality, then nothing will change.

Elora

06-11-2007, 07:49 AM

as for the above mentioned article, what I liked about it was that it did reflect the language that is necessary to motivate change.If it works to incite change for some people, then use it. From what I understood from the OP, it wasn't working. Maybe I misunderstood *shrug.* I'm just saying that it wouldn't change my mind *personally* it'd offend me and I'd get defensive and shut off. When I read it, it sounds like they just want to bash me...it assumes I ff because I wanted to make a lifestyle choice, that I'm lazy, or that I'm ignorant. *I* don't see it as effective, but that varies by person. I was under the impression it was turning people off...and that doesn't motivate change...quite the opposite. But yeah, if talking to people that way is effective for you, then use it.

CelticJourney

06-11-2007, 07:59 AM

as for the above mentioned article, what I liked about it was that it did reflect the language that is necessary to motivate change
Again, it does or doesn't motivate change depending on the audience - for some it closes down the conversation.

Elora

06-11-2007, 09:12 AM

I share about breastfeeding openly, passionately and hopefully inspirationally, but what you have in this post is a glimpse into the way I feel about breastfeeding in a way that I rarely share it. Raw and honest.

I wouldn't use that article as an inducement to breastfeeding, but I do believe it is right-on.

The article IS honest. The difference between when I read raw honesty coming from you: no matter what you're saying, even when you're being "raw and honest" there is a loving "tone" (I don't know how else to describe it other than I truly see God's love coming through just about every post I read from you here). You're always frank and to the point. But, there is just something so much more loving with your honesty than there is in that article.

+++++++

to the OP

I agree with everything Allison wrote, and if it weren't for people that approached me the way Allison and a few others here did, with loving concern, I would have given up pumping and trying to nurse LONG ago. If I were only approached in the tone of that article, especially with all the problems I was having, I never would have made it this far. I needed people to support and help me with caring and loving encouragement. That article just pours raw salt on open wounds. And pretty much guarantees I'd never go to someone who treated me like that if I was having problems. That tone has a tendency to alienate women...and if they ever have problems and concerns in the future, after reading it, most would never come to you in the future if they need help.

And I think that the bad breastfeeding experience I had is much harder to comes to terms with for me than the bad birth experience I had. My ds' birth went the complete opposite of everything I wanted. But it was over and done and I've accepted and come to terms with it. However, I am reminded that my breastfeeding experience I so looked forward to, and that would so benefit my baby, has failed miserably every single time my baby eats. The constant reminder is just killer.

Elora

06-11-2007, 09:23 AM

Yes, that's it. There is some anger, but really what it is for me is a healthy boundary for my life so that's what I am going to do-- after all people here will only hear excuses anyway, and I have nothing to prove, so I will just stick with this boundary. I know where the LLL is, and the lactation consultants in my local hospital, and that will do just fine.

I think it is fair to say that most people here know your story and don't just hear excuses. I'm sorry that you feel like people are judging you and that you can't get support here, but I just don't see that as the case.

ugh :( oh janet :hugheart

I know what you're saying. I would just encourage that if there is anyone here...even if it's only ONE person that you didn't feel judged by...if you ever have issues in the future, seek them out.

I know sometimes when I make a post, there can be a couple judgmental replies (or posts that I read with such an unloving tone) and suddenly to me, in my mind, the whole post has taken on a judgmental tone. The voices of the "bad stuff" always sound louder.

Whenever I had issues I didn't talk about them here until after the fact, and that was only because I really wanted to help a couple mamas I saw struggling, because I could already tell just from reading here that some I didn't need the harshness when I was already such a wreck. Even the one judgmental post would have pushed me over the edge I think. But when I did finally post about it here, there were some really loving mamas that truly just wanted to be loving and encouraging.

I totally know where you're coming from though. All too well *big hugs*

Elora

06-11-2007, 09:29 AM

"Wow, did you know that breastfeeding helps baby whatever, I didn't know that!" "I" statements and all of that. Flies and honey. There is a place for attacking the formula industry (as grateful as I am for the industry) and there is a place for making changes in how it is marketed or sold but there is no place IMO for attacking formula feeders. It won't help the cause, it won't make breastfeeding or you look good kwim? Be compassionate, and NEVER assume anything about why a person is formula feeding or why a person stopped breastfeeding. You may make the difference for next time. It's hard not to be judgemental. In some ways I consider that a silver lining of my experiences. Not that I don't still struggle with it sometimes lol. I just try to remember that things aren't always what they seem on the outside and just because I was able to handle whatever, doesn't mean someone else can or should. Keep the PEOPLE first in your mind and the "cause" second.

This is so perfectly said, if I would have read it first I would have just agreed and saved my sorry attempts at explanation :P

But yes, this sums it up awesomely if you TRULY want to do something for the cause. I can say with firsthand knowledge that it will help.

Firebird Rising

06-11-2007, 09:35 AM

I have read all the posts. First of all, Janet, I just want to say I followed your struggle and know that my heartache for you was huge when you were fighting to nurse Maya. I know you were so disappointed.

I have been going to a breast-feeding support group for a year, starting right after Cameron was born. I had a rather easy time with nursing. At group, I met moms who had absolutely heart-wrenching breastfeeding stories and had to resort to formula feeding after weeks and weeks of trying. There were often a lot of tears. It was intensely emotional to watch how badly some of these moms wanted to breastfeed and couldn't. It was equally as intense to have bonded with some of these moms that started out breastfeeding and switched to formula just because it was 'easier', despite having had a good nursing relationship. The leader of the group said that each one of those moms in the second group were the biggest blows to her because they knew, they just didn't have enough support outside of the group.

I truly believe that breastfeeding is SO much about support. If moms had other moms in there helping, bringing them water, keeping their older kids satisfied, moderating their husbands, quelling the little fears that come as a new mother, helping in every way possible, then the newly breastfeeding moms might have a better chance to succeed. I believe that in breastfeeding as well as Christianity, actions speak louder than words. If a mom doesn't have someone to support her through this adjustment period after baby, she will go into survival mode and one of the first things to shutdown will be her ability to sit quietly and breastfeed. Her mind and her heart will be restless, this will affect let-down and supply. She will start looking at other options and formula will be the first thing thrown at her.

Throwing an article at anyone, either a formula-feeding mother or a mother-to-be is not the way to be an activist. Having the passion to actually step in there and take that mama by the hand and lead her into this time in her life is what being an ACTIV-ist is. I believe that if you are wanting to advocate and wanting to educate, you will do it in kindness and in lots of hugs and in lots of talking and getting to know someone. I am absolutely passionate about this type of empathy and support.

In the olden days, family provided the support for these things. Moms were made moms by having younger siblings, their breastfeeding skills came as a result of generations of mothers being with them and showing them the tricks. Because of the mobility of this country and the breakdown of family, this is no longer a given thing. I think the world needs more post-partum doulas and moms knowledgable on breastfeeding to step up and start leading by be-friending and being there and being available on the moms that want to breastfeed and not trying to indoctrinate the others. There are so many moms that start breastfeeding and stop for no other reason than being tired of doing it.

I love you all, mamas.

Jen D.

Elora

06-11-2007, 09:42 AM

I truly believe that breastfeeding is SO much about support. If moms had other moms in there helping, bringing them water, keeping their older kids satisfied, moderating their husbands, quelling the little fears that come as a new mother, helping in every way possible, then the newly breastfeeding moms might have a better chance to succeed. I believe that in breastfeeding as well as Christianity, actions speak louder than words. If a mom doesn't have someone to support her through this adjustment period after baby, she will go into survival mode and one of the first things to shutdown will be her ability to sit quietly and breastfeed. Her mind and her heart will be restless, this will affect let-down and supply. She will start looking at other options and formula will be the first thing thrown at her.

Throwing an article at anyone, either a formula-feeding mother or a mother-to-be is not the way to be an activist. Having the passion to actually step in there and take that mama by the hand and lead her into this time in her life is what being an ACTIV-ist is. I believe that if you are wanting to advocate and wanting to educate, you will do it in kindness and in lots of hugs and in lots of talking and getting to know someone. I am absolutely passionate about this type of empathy and support.

sorry, I'm going to try to stop replying so much in this thread :blush I just had to applaud this though :clap :heart thank you. the whole post was great to read.

3PeasInAPod

06-11-2007, 09:46 AM

Jen D - ITA - I wished I could've gotten some better support w/ real BF mama's!

mamaKristin

06-11-2007, 10:21 AM

Ok, I'm going to go WAAAAYYY back to the OP here. ;)

It sounds like there are two different issues here - the overall breastfeeding culture where you live, and your own convictions and confidence in the good of breastfeeding. If you want to call it "the system" and "the people". :)

When it comes to "the system", I find it really useful to do things promote bf'ing as normal, regular and "the way things are". Such as nursing where I am without apology, by being confident with nursing in public, by making sure that I say something to women when I see them bf'ing in public to hopefully encourage and affirm them. Doing what I can to make public places more breastfeeding friendly, talking to doctors about the pros of extended bf'ing, asking my local health nurses to post more pro-bf'ing posters in their offices. Even making my no formula stance clear in the hospital where I have had my children, one person being strong about their convictions can help a nurse who may be ingrained with the idea of 'just give formula' rethink their position. Helping to change the system.

When it comes to people...well, behind each woman is a story that we won't ever know in full. We may not know why they choose to stop bf'ing when they do, or why they never started. I believe that it's best to encourage that person where they are, and do our best not to condemn. Using "I" statements as to why bf'ing worked for me, the benefits I have seen, the pros of bf'ing,.and so on. Being loving and supportive goes a long, long way. Some women stop bf'ing because of pressure from family, some have health issues that make it hard if not impossible to bf, some have abuse in their past that makes bf'ing a struggle that I can't even comprehend. Working to support women where they are can go a long way to help them be better educated for next time, or stronger in their resolve next time, or help them know that YOU are a trustworthy and helpful source of support. By working to support the women involved, we can also work at changing the system at the same time....however our goal shouldn't be to change the system this way, rather it's a byproduct, if that makes sense.

I've been on both sides of the support vs. condemnation issue. :yes2 I've hurt when I could have encouraged, I've also been hurt when a friend told me I was as good as killing my baby when I had to supplement with formula when my supply dropped off completely during pregnancy. However, I still remember being a new mom, nursing my first and struggling with the idea of nursing in public, and feeling a bit like a freak for doing it and an older woman came up to me and said how much she was enjoying watching me nurse my baby as it brought back all sorts of great memories for her of nursing her babies, and how she wanted to thank me for having the strength to do it in public. :heart That day was a real encouragement to me, and because of that support, it made the next time I nursed in public that much easier. A compliment to a nursing mom can go a long way to making the world a better place for breastfeeding moms. :yes

MtnMama

06-11-2007, 11:03 AM

Where did you post it?

She posted in a breastfeeding forum in a way of encouraging women who were already breastfeeding. To be honest, when I was having troubles early on, I read a lot of those kinds of articles and they encouraged me not to "give in." I think that bfing women should be able to talk about the pros and cons with other like-minded women without the attacking situation that ironically happens when breastfeeders step out of a "vague" breast is best slogan.

I've been attacked many times for saying things that were factual, albeit not what a ffing woman wanted to hear, when I was intending on talking about things with a breastfeeding woman. I think that sometimes ffers make it their personal mission to keep us breastfeeding women in line so that we don't "offend" others... even when we were thought we were in a "safe" forum for talking about things openly. I think there could be a term coined for formula-activits, tbh, just as there are the "lactivists."

Elora

06-11-2007, 12:00 PM

Where did you post it?

She posted in a breastfeeding forum in a way of encouraging women who were already breastfeeding.

:think
I need to think about how to say this because I don't want it to come off wrong or hurt anyone's feelings, but articles and attitudes like that in the breastfeeding forum here were why I never came to ask for help here. Which is fine, I had a ton of other resources. But I could definately tell the bf forum here was geared toward women who were already bfing...as were the attitudes. Please no one think I am trying in any way to bash the bf forum here, because I think it's a wonderful resource to women who are breastfeeding. I don't mean that as a bad thing when I say that it was geared toward women who are already bfing.

I guess if the intent is to encourage breastfeeding among women who are already breastfeeding, and it works, then by all means, use it. There are always a few people who are going to be offended by things based on their own experiences. If the good is outweighing the bad in your circumstance, I'd say go for the good.

But I don't think it's going to help women who aren't breastfeeding make changes. If you're looking to promote bfing among NONbreastfeeders, you're probably going to offend more than you convert with tone and language like that. It does sound harsh. So when I read that, and read the title of this post...*sigh*

I really hope that I'm not the one coming of as judgmental now *lol* I am just trying to offer another perspective because I thought that was what this thread was for. There are SO many ways to go about promoting bfing...and this whole thread is FULL of GREAT suggestions :rockon

Evenstarlight

06-11-2007, 01:39 PM

Thank you to EVERYONE for your replies. It has been very good food for thought. I've enjoyed hearing from seasonsed bfing mamas and how they have lovingly promoted breastfeeding and have not been condeming or judgemental.
To clarify where i posted it, it was a mixed board. I'm an American living in the UK and it's a forum for american expats in the UK. There is a parenting section where many women post about breastfeeding, but there are also formula feeders on there as well, so it was a mixed audience. I should have known better really.
I wasn't trying to use that artical as a "this is why you should breastfeed" it was just to see what people thought of it, and to use it an example of why i'm so passionate.